IPAD needs a liitle more functionality before it can be called a PC . Doubtful Apple will ever give it that functionality as that would be shooting itself in the foot as Apple would lose sales of their other PCs, Laptops etc.
I'll call it a PC when it stops needing a PC to do everything.
I still need a PC to print, to write software, to centrally manage my files, to store the 160 GB of music I have, to play the most current games, to type on comfortably for long periods of time, to draw on, to do 3D modelling and animation, to handle nonlinear video editing ...
(inhale)
... to burn DVDs for the rest of my family, to connect to all those USB-based peripherals that don't have SD cards, to post comments on blogs, to have more than a 1024x768 view of the internet, to have an HID that's more precise than my thumb or fingertip, to read those silly Flash-based e-cards I get ...
... to do with it whatever I want, whether Steve Jobs likes it or not.
next month you will be able to print from an iPad.
you can already use a keyboard with an iPad just like you can with any computer. The same apple wireless keyboard you use with an iMac.
most people don't need to write software
and by your definition a netbook isn't a PC (no DVD drive)
And others are exacerbated. The one down-side of "general purpose computing" is that to excel at everything you have to have substantial powers. GP PCs have gigs of RAM, terabytes of storage, and typically several processing cores, each clocked north of 2GHz. Its largely the very reason we now have such powerful computers.
Netbooks have none of these and are thus woefully underpowered GP PCs -- yes, they cover the feature set of a PC better than an iPad, but end up doing a poorer job of it, and like the iPad, they continue to evolve, both pushing up the netbook end, and pulling down the prices of laptops (a market the iPad is destroying, if you believe Best Buy).
I'm not knocking the iPad -- it's on the right track, but it has a way to go, yet. Not supporting USB will mandate manufactures to think of other ways to accomplish the same thing using wireless. But the biggest impediment to the iPad completely replacing the laptop is Apple itself, and I'm not sure how to get around that one...
I only connect my iPad to a computer when I need to update the software. I store all my data on MobileMe. You can also connect a USB equipped camera and download photos from your digital camera.
Having said that, I find that the current iOS is not mature enough to replace a full-blown OS such as OSX yet. It lacks a system-wide filing-system, and as you mentioned, many professional level applications are not here yet. That is why I feel that Apple should not play tough with companies like Adobe yet.
It doesn't lack a system-wide file system - you simply don't have what is considered traditional access to the file system. If you lump netbooks into the PC category they would fail running "professional level applications" as well. Running professional level applications has not ever been a part of the accepted definition of PC - just a preference for those who want a powerful enough PC.
I agree the current system set-up is much more conservative than the broad category of PC, but since we are talking about what is essentially a paradigm shift in computing anyway, the traditional definitions naturally get re-examined for relevancy in light of the shift and so it becomes harder to nail down until the new paradigm is broadly accepted.
next month you will be able to print from an iPad.
you can already use a keyboard with an iPad just like you can with any computer. The same apple wireless keyboard you use with an iMac.
Yeah, and that's actually pretty cool when I found that out. Hopefully Magic Trackpad support is next. A mouse would be a tad anachronistic, but the Magic Trackpad would be perfect for use with a docked iPad.
Quote:
most people don't need to write software
Or draw, or do nonlinear video editing ... but some of us do, and that's what I mean by general purpose. Plug in a MIDI splitter and it's now the hub of your DJ business; throw in some CUDA cards and you're now a micro-super computer. It can be anything I need it to be, and right now the iPad can't quite do that.
Quote:
and by your definition a netbook isn't a PC (no DVD drive)
Perhaps it isn't, but I wasn't attempting to define what a PC is, only that the iPad is currently not up to what we presently call a "PC" -- or a Mac -- I don't want the term PC here to define an IBM/Windows PC. Even the Commodore Amiga was a PC in its time, and was far more general purpose than the iPad is now -- so if it's not up to 1990's standards of what a PC can **DO** then it's not a PC.
A PC is able to connect to a network domain and be policed via GPO. It is able to be burn DVDs, cds. In a small enough environment, it can act a temporary file share or print server (it would have to be capable and of course, only temporary). It is also able to be custom made, have parts replaced when they cause issues and easily upgradeable. It can also support multiple monitors if need be. it can act a DVR if need be. That's just some of things a PC can do that an iPad can't do.
I'll call it a PC when it stops needing a PC to do everything.
I still need a PC to print, to write software, to centrally manage my files, to store the 160 GB of music I have, to play the most current games, to type on comfortably for long periods of time, to draw on, to do 3D modelling and animation, to handle nonlinear video editing ...
(inhale)
... to burn DVDs for the rest of my family, to connect to all those USB-based peripherals that don't have SD cards, to post comments on blogs, to have more than a 1024x768 view of the internet, to have an HID that's more precise than my thumb or fingertip, to read those silly Flash-based e-cards I get ...
... to do with it whatever I want, whether Steve Jobs likes it or not.
you don't need a PC to print, and until compliers were written you couldn't write software on PCs, you can centrally manage your files - I do that with cloud support via iDisk, I don't store 160 GB of any media on a computer - my media resides on a NAS on my network, I play all my most current games on my iPad, I bluetooth link my keyboard to my iPad for typing extended periods, and could care less about 3D modelling and animation or nonlinear video editing - which you can't do on many low-level PCs to begin with, let alone netbooks. Buring DVDs is strictly 20th century stuff, and there are a number of PCs that aren't well-equiped to do even that. I have yet to discover a USB dependent peripheral that is an absolute show-stopper for defining a PC or an SD card slot for that matter. I post constantly on blogs (like this one) from my iPad, and lord have mercy what did you do - ignore the internet when screen res was 800x600???
So fine, YOU think a PC has to do all this, but I submit that your demands are essentially flawed for the vast majority of users/consumers. So this is a fit only for your particular needs which are not, in toto common with the average user.
A PC is able to connect to a network domain and be policed via GPO. It is able to be burn DVDs, cds. In a small enough environment, it can act a temporary file share or print server (it would have to be capable and of course, only temporary). It is also able to be custom made, have parts replaced when they cause issues and easily upgradeable. It can also support multiple monitors if need be. it can act a DVR if need be. That's just some of things a PC can do that an iPad can't do.
Wow, who knew an IBM PC wasn't a PC?
You guys are just arguing the definition of a word which has no universal definition.
A PC is able to connect to a network domain and be policed via GPO. It is able to be burn DVDs, cds. In a small enough environment, it can act a temporary file share or print server (it would have to be capable and of course, only temporary). It is also able to be custom made, have parts replaced when they cause issues and easily upgradeable. It can also support multiple monitors if need be. it can act a DVR if need be. That's just some of things a PC can do that an iPad can't do.
Let's deconstruct here:
A PC is able to connect to a network domain and be policed via GPO - not needed as a part of the definition - you can have a perfectly fine PC that doesn't have a network card yet can still do processing. Perferred, perhaps but not required.
Burning CD/DVDs - Again, as I mentioned in an earlier post, there were PCs that never had the capability to burn CD/DVD back in the days of floppies - and yet they were considered PCs by any reasonable definition.
... I can go on - but what you constructed here is your WANT list, or your preferences, NOT a functional definition of what a PC is. For example I can have a headless file or print server that is hard-coded to do just that function, and yet it is NOT considered a PC by any tradition accepted definition. Also custom building is a preference, not a requirement. Some PC units in use today are NOT parts replaceable - they are modular in nature and you simply swap out the whole unit - because it's cheaper to do that than to pay someone to take it apart, potentially impact other components and reassemble and return to service. Support multiple monitors - that's a recent upgrade to many PCs, and is limited on netbooks, and some low-end PCs. Integrated graphics doesn't allow for multiple montiors now does it? And act as a DVR? Again far outside the traditional PC definition - not a must have as a functional definition.
Netbooks have none of these and are thus woefully underpowered GP PCs
Modern netbooks are as powerful as the desktops were several years ago. They are as powerful as supercomputers were many years ago.
Modern netbooks are powerful enough to be mainstream computers for the vast majority of users.
They are far from woefully underpowered. Indeed, compared to the computer I was using daily less than a year ago (P4-class AMD processor, 512 megs of RAM), they are fully featured powerful machines.
I feel that it's entirely based on your point-of-view.
The concept of the PC has generally evolved since the 1970's, but the founding principle is this -- a PC can DO just about anything -- whether it does it correctly or quickly isn't terribly relevant. Anything the PC can't do right now, someone is out there trying to make it do.
So at one end, the iPad does everything a lot of people would otherwise need a PC to do -- browse the web, check their email and play some staggeringly light-of-mind games. On the other end, the iPad does perhaps 5 to 10% of what we use PCs for -- there are no iPad clusters, no Maya for iPad and it still can't play Crysis...
If the iPad is not a computer now, then what would it need in order to be classified as one?
Surely it's only limited by software and hardware? If a MKII iPad had better connectivity to more peripheral devices (printers etc) would it be more computer like? It would still be an iPad, tablet etc..
For me it has replaced my Macbook for things like browsing the web, listening to music, watching films, playing games, reading email. My Macbook is a computer so my logic dictates the iPad is also.
I suppose it's only the end users in these forums who are interested in the stats, Apple don't seem to be that bothered.
As someone who has built countless (literally) PC's for just about every use imaginable, from botanical testbed monitoring units to house-system controls and all levels of corporate usage, including virtual PCs, it is amusing to see all the needs sets come tumbling into the conversation without the requisite "it won't work as a standard PC for me if it doesn't do ..."
Early PCs hardly did anything close what some of you are calling out as defining what a PC is. It's fine to say it doesn't meet my current computing needs - but that doesn't make any more or less a PC in the traditional sense. The tube-based computation devices of the 50s and 60s were in fact computers, but compared to now had little of the power we expect from a PC. But they were for their time the bleeding edge.
The base functionality of a PC is the ability to run programs that allow functions to be performed across a broad range of needs, usually requiring a CPU, RAM/memory storage, frequently a network interface and user interfaces - input and output. That is the definition of a personal computer. You can argue all you want about your particular needs, or the current state of PCdom in general but it all boils down to that very essential definition above. Whether any particular device meets your particular needs defines what is an acceptable PC for you - but does NOT define a PC in general.
And for those of you who struggle with limited use or restricted PC configurations - its OK. Those are not for you, whether its a low-end budget Windows or Linux box, an Apple computer that doesn'r run your favorite Windows games, or an iPod Touch that runs only App Store apps. But don't pretend that your use requirements are the be/all-end/of of defining what a PC is or is not.
And this doesn't discount your needs as irrelevant, just not definitive. Which is what is being discussed here. I wouldn't try to run Maya on a netbook, nor would I expect a budget Dell to be able to do "anything". This is a very specific definition, and we need to categorize what are needs, wants, desires vs. what is a functional definition of what a PC is. What you are talking about nonarKitten and ghostface147 are PC CONFIGURATIONS not the PC itself.
<snip> and lord have mercy what did you do - ignore the internet when screen res was 800x600???
Not at all, but fifteen years ago, when 800x600 was the norm, the internet was also tailored to that screen resolution. Sadly, 1024x768 also became obsolete about five years ago when the HD push came -- now even many netbooks are sporting 1366x768 displays, and I would wager a lot of people have 1600x900 or better on their laptops and desktops.
Quote:
So fine, YOU think a PC has to do all this, but I submit that your demands are essentially flawed for the vast majority of users/consumers. So this is a fit only for your particular needs which are not, in toto common with the average user.
I'll agree that my needs (as a software developer) are not inline with the average consumer, and for most people, the iPad certainly suits the same needs they may have otherwise bought a PC for, but that doesn't make the iPad a PC.
I feel that it's entirely based on your point-of-view.
The concept of the PC has generally evolved since the 1970's, but the founding principle is this -- a PC can DO just about anything -- whether it does it correctly or quickly isn't terribly relevant. Anything the PC can't do right now, someone is out there trying to make it do.
So at one end, the iPad does everything a lot of people would otherwise need a PC to do -- browse the web, check their email and play some staggeringly light-of-mind games. On the other end, the iPad does perhaps 5 to 10% of what we use PCs for -- there are no iPad clusters, no Maya for iPad and it still can't play Crysis...
You can?t do those things on a netbook either. I guess it?s not a PC then.
Comments
... If Donald is a Duck... and, Pluto is a Dog... then, what is Goofey?
... If a Netbook is a Computer... And an iPad is a big iPod... then, what is an AppleTV?
.
Goofey's an IM. AppleTVs are a hobby.
I think one of the key things that makes a computer a computer is being general purpose, i.e. apps.
Ipad is to a PC as Casio is to grand piano.
I'll call it a PC when it stops needing a PC to do everything.
I still need a PC to print, to write software, to centrally manage my files, to store the 160 GB of music I have, to play the most current games, to type on comfortably for long periods of time, to draw on, to do 3D modelling and animation, to handle nonlinear video editing ...
(inhale)
... to burn DVDs for the rest of my family, to connect to all those USB-based peripherals that don't have SD cards, to post comments on blogs, to have more than a 1024x768 view of the internet, to have an HID that's more precise than my thumb or fingertip, to read those silly Flash-based e-cards I get ...
... to do with it whatever I want, whether Steve Jobs likes it or not.
next month you will be able to print from an iPad.
you can already use a keyboard with an iPad just like you can with any computer. The same apple wireless keyboard you use with an iMac.
most people don't need to write software
and by your definition a netbook isn't a PC (no DVD drive)
Then get a netbook. Problem solved.
And others are exacerbated. The one down-side of "general purpose computing" is that to excel at everything you have to have substantial powers. GP PCs have gigs of RAM, terabytes of storage, and typically several processing cores, each clocked north of 2GHz. Its largely the very reason we now have such powerful computers.
Netbooks have none of these and are thus woefully underpowered GP PCs -- yes, they cover the feature set of a PC better than an iPad, but end up doing a poorer job of it, and like the iPad, they continue to evolve, both pushing up the netbook end, and pulling down the prices of laptops (a market the iPad is destroying, if you believe Best Buy).
I'm not knocking the iPad -- it's on the right track, but it has a way to go, yet. Not supporting USB will mandate manufactures to think of other ways to accomplish the same thing using wireless. But the biggest impediment to the iPad completely replacing the laptop is Apple itself, and I'm not sure how to get around that one...
I only connect my iPad to a computer when I need to update the software. I store all my data on MobileMe. You can also connect a USB equipped camera and download photos from your digital camera.
Having said that, I find that the current iOS is not mature enough to replace a full-blown OS such as OSX yet. It lacks a system-wide filing-system, and as you mentioned, many professional level applications are not here yet. That is why I feel that Apple should not play tough with companies like Adobe yet.
It doesn't lack a system-wide file system - you simply don't have what is considered traditional access to the file system. If you lump netbooks into the PC category they would fail running "professional level applications" as well. Running professional level applications has not ever been a part of the accepted definition of PC - just a preference for those who want a powerful enough PC.
I agree the current system set-up is much more conservative than the broad category of PC, but since we are talking about what is essentially a paradigm shift in computing anyway, the traditional definitions naturally get re-examined for relevancy in light of the shift and so it becomes harder to nail down until the new paradigm is broadly accepted.
Irrelevant. It's NOT a PC it does no more than 10% of what a PC could do.
Unless, of course, you could install Linux on the thing.
Define what a "PC does" then...
next month you will be able to print from an iPad.
you can already use a keyboard with an iPad just like you can with any computer. The same apple wireless keyboard you use with an iMac.
Yeah, and that's actually pretty cool when I found that out. Hopefully Magic Trackpad support is next. A mouse would be a tad anachronistic, but the Magic Trackpad would be perfect for use with a docked iPad.
most people don't need to write software
Or draw, or do nonlinear video editing ... but some of us do, and that's what I mean by general purpose. Plug in a MIDI splitter and it's now the hub of your DJ business; throw in some CUDA cards and you're now a micro-super computer. It can be anything I need it to be, and right now the iPad can't quite do that.
and by your definition a netbook isn't a PC (no DVD drive)
Perhaps it isn't, but I wasn't attempting to define what a PC is, only that the iPad is currently not up to what we presently call a "PC" -- or a Mac -- I don't want the term PC here to define an IBM/Windows PC. Even the Commodore Amiga was a PC in its time, and was far more general purpose than the iPad is now -- so if it's not up to 1990's standards of what a PC can **DO** then it's not a PC.
Define what a "PC does" then...
A PC is able to connect to a network domain and be policed via GPO. It is able to be burn DVDs, cds. In a small enough environment, it can act a temporary file share or print server (it would have to be capable and of course, only temporary). It is also able to be custom made, have parts replaced when they cause issues and easily upgradeable. It can also support multiple monitors if need be. it can act a DVR if need be. That's just some of things a PC can do that an iPad can't do.
I'll call it a PC when it stops needing a PC to do everything.
I still need a PC to print, to write software, to centrally manage my files, to store the 160 GB of music I have, to play the most current games, to type on comfortably for long periods of time, to draw on, to do 3D modelling and animation, to handle nonlinear video editing ...
(inhale)
... to burn DVDs for the rest of my family, to connect to all those USB-based peripherals that don't have SD cards, to post comments on blogs, to have more than a 1024x768 view of the internet, to have an HID that's more precise than my thumb or fingertip, to read those silly Flash-based e-cards I get ...
... to do with it whatever I want, whether Steve Jobs likes it or not.
you don't need a PC to print, and until compliers were written you couldn't write software on PCs, you can centrally manage your files - I do that with cloud support via iDisk, I don't store 160 GB of any media on a computer - my media resides on a NAS on my network, I play all my most current games on my iPad, I bluetooth link my keyboard to my iPad for typing extended periods, and could care less about 3D modelling and animation or nonlinear video editing - which you can't do on many low-level PCs to begin with, let alone netbooks. Buring DVDs is strictly 20th century stuff, and there are a number of PCs that aren't well-equiped to do even that. I have yet to discover a USB dependent peripheral that is an absolute show-stopper for defining a PC or an SD card slot for that matter. I post constantly on blogs (like this one) from my iPad, and lord have mercy what did you do - ignore the internet when screen res was 800x600???
So fine, YOU think a PC has to do all this, but I submit that your demands are essentially flawed for the vast majority of users/consumers. So this is a fit only for your particular needs which are not, in toto common with the average user.
A PC is able to connect to a network domain and be policed via GPO. It is able to be burn DVDs, cds. In a small enough environment, it can act a temporary file share or print server (it would have to be capable and of course, only temporary). It is also able to be custom made, have parts replaced when they cause issues and easily upgradeable. It can also support multiple monitors if need be. it can act a DVR if need be. That's just some of things a PC can do that an iPad can't do.
Wow, who knew an IBM PC wasn't a PC?
You guys are just arguing the definition of a word which has no universal definition.
A PC is able to connect to a network domain and be policed via GPO. It is able to be burn DVDs, cds. In a small enough environment, it can act a temporary file share or print server (it would have to be capable and of course, only temporary). It is also able to be custom made, have parts replaced when they cause issues and easily upgradeable. It can also support multiple monitors if need be. it can act a DVR if need be. That's just some of things a PC can do that an iPad can't do.
Let's deconstruct here:
A PC is able to connect to a network domain and be policed via GPO - not needed as a part of the definition - you can have a perfectly fine PC that doesn't have a network card yet can still do processing. Perferred, perhaps but not required.
Burning CD/DVDs - Again, as I mentioned in an earlier post, there were PCs that never had the capability to burn CD/DVD back in the days of floppies - and yet they were considered PCs by any reasonable definition.
... I can go on - but what you constructed here is your WANT list, or your preferences, NOT a functional definition of what a PC is. For example I can have a headless file or print server that is hard-coded to do just that function, and yet it is NOT considered a PC by any tradition accepted definition. Also custom building is a preference, not a requirement. Some PC units in use today are NOT parts replaceable - they are modular in nature and you simply swap out the whole unit - because it's cheaper to do that than to pay someone to take it apart, potentially impact other components and reassemble and return to service. Support multiple monitors - that's a recent upgrade to many PCs, and is limited on netbooks, and some low-end PCs. Integrated graphics doesn't allow for multiple montiors now does it? And act as a DVR? Again far outside the traditional PC definition - not a must have as a functional definition.
Netbooks have none of these and are thus woefully underpowered GP PCs
Modern netbooks are as powerful as the desktops were several years ago. They are as powerful as supercomputers were many years ago.
Modern netbooks are powerful enough to be mainstream computers for the vast majority of users.
They are far from woefully underpowered. Indeed, compared to the computer I was using daily less than a year ago (P4-class AMD processor, 512 megs of RAM), they are fully featured powerful machines.
Define what a "PC does" then...
I feel that it's entirely based on your point-of-view.
The concept of the PC has generally evolved since the 1970's, but the founding principle is this -- a PC can DO just about anything -- whether it does it correctly or quickly isn't terribly relevant. Anything the PC can't do right now, someone is out there trying to make it do.
So at one end, the iPad does everything a lot of people would otherwise need a PC to do -- browse the web, check their email and play some staggeringly light-of-mind games. On the other end, the iPad does perhaps 5 to 10% of what we use PCs for -- there are no iPad clusters, no Maya for iPad and it still can't play Crysis...
Surely it's only limited by software and hardware? If a MKII iPad had better connectivity to more peripheral devices (printers etc) would it be more computer like? It would still be an iPad, tablet etc..
For me it has replaced my Macbook for things like browsing the web, listening to music, watching films, playing games, reading email. My Macbook is a computer so my logic dictates the iPad is also.
I suppose it's only the end users in these forums who are interested in the stats, Apple don't seem to be that bothered.
A PC is able to connect to a network domain and be policed via GPO.
I see why solip bailed from this thread. DE-pressing.
Seriously, though, Gruber has a take on this today:
http://daringfireball.net/
Early PCs hardly did anything close what some of you are calling out as defining what a PC is. It's fine to say it doesn't meet my current computing needs - but that doesn't make any more or less a PC in the traditional sense. The tube-based computation devices of the 50s and 60s were in fact computers, but compared to now had little of the power we expect from a PC. But they were for their time the bleeding edge.
The base functionality of a PC is the ability to run programs that allow functions to be performed across a broad range of needs, usually requiring a CPU, RAM/memory storage, frequently a network interface and user interfaces - input and output. That is the definition of a personal computer. You can argue all you want about your particular needs, or the current state of PCdom in general but it all boils down to that very essential definition above. Whether any particular device meets your particular needs defines what is an acceptable PC for you - but does NOT define a PC in general.
And for those of you who struggle with limited use or restricted PC configurations - its OK. Those are not for you, whether its a low-end budget Windows or Linux box, an Apple computer that doesn'r run your favorite Windows games, or an iPod Touch that runs only App Store apps. But don't pretend that your use requirements are the be/all-end/of of defining what a PC is or is not.
And this doesn't discount your needs as irrelevant, just not definitive. Which is what is being discussed here. I wouldn't try to run Maya on a netbook, nor would I expect a budget Dell to be able to do "anything". This is a very specific definition, and we need to categorize what are needs, wants, desires vs. what is a functional definition of what a PC is. What you are talking about nonarKitten and ghostface147 are PC CONFIGURATIONS not the PC itself.
<snip> and lord have mercy what did you do - ignore the internet when screen res was 800x600???
Not at all, but fifteen years ago, when 800x600 was the norm, the internet was also tailored to that screen resolution. Sadly, 1024x768 also became obsolete about five years ago when the HD push came -- now even many netbooks are sporting 1366x768 displays, and I would wager a lot of people have 1600x900 or better on their laptops and desktops.
So fine, YOU think a PC has to do all this, but I submit that your demands are essentially flawed for the vast majority of users/consumers. So this is a fit only for your particular needs which are not, in toto common with the average user.
I'll agree that my needs (as a software developer) are not inline with the average consumer, and for most people, the iPad certainly suits the same needs they may have otherwise bought a PC for, but that doesn't make the iPad a PC.
I feel that it's entirely based on your point-of-view.
The concept of the PC has generally evolved since the 1970's, but the founding principle is this -- a PC can DO just about anything -- whether it does it correctly or quickly isn't terribly relevant. Anything the PC can't do right now, someone is out there trying to make it do.
So at one end, the iPad does everything a lot of people would otherwise need a PC to do -- browse the web, check their email and play some staggeringly light-of-mind games. On the other end, the iPad does perhaps 5 to 10% of what we use PCs for -- there are no iPad clusters, no Maya for iPad and it still can't play Crysis...
You can?t do those things on a netbook either. I guess it?s not a PC then.