Apple: Not preinstalling Flash on Macs ensures users have latest version

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  • Reply 81 of 135
    geekdadgeekdad Posts: 1,131member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by macslut View Post


    This most certainly is not about security.



    If it was about security, the solution would be obvious. The first time Safari launches as a new install or upgrade, it would load in a web page which would check the version of Flash installed. If it was installed, but lower than the most recent version it would alert you to this. Even I could write the code for this.



    Furthermore, Apple could include Flash in the Software Update making sure users are notified when new versions of Flash are released.



    Instead, Apple is insuring that users get the most recent version of Flash when they first install by having them manually do so, and then not putting anything in place to make sure they update Flash when they should.



    Apple may justifiably hate Flash. I hate it too, but this move doesn't help anyone who would choose to have Flash on their computer, and creates confusion along with a false sense of security.



    Couldn't have put it better! :-) At least come out and say it for what it is.....they want users to NOT install Flash..... I don't care one way or the other but just be genuine about it....

    If security was the driving force then close the operating system and not allow ALL third party software! How does Apple know if you will keep it updated? What if you install software and then the next week there is a known exploit for that software? in the best interest of the customer Apple should not let you install anything! They have no way to know if you will keep it updated! They have to protect you from yourself.....
  • Reply 82 of 135
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dorotea View Post


    My favorite websites don't use flash!



    You are not everybody.
  • Reply 83 of 135
    trip1extrip1ex Posts: 109member
    No coincidence that this move to not update/include Java and Flash on Macs coincides with the upcoming app store.
  • Reply 84 of 135
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mikemikeb View Post


    Internet Explorer needs a different version of Flash than the Firefox/Chrome version, to account for ActiveX. That said, I recommend installing Chrome instead of Firefox. Chrome now includes built-in Flash and PDF viewing, with no additional downloads required. I'd recommend the browser for reasons other than Flash and PDF integration, but that's another story....



    I've used Chrome on OSX since it was released, I was referring to my Windows days 2 or so years ago, no worries.
  • Reply 85 of 135
    haggarhaggar Posts: 1,568member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sessamoid View Post


    "For its part, Adobe fired back and said that any crashes of Flash in Mac OS X are not related to its software, but are instead the fault of Apple's operating system."



    That is such a load of crap. I have a relative who works at Adobe on desktop Flash player. This relative doesn't have a very high opinion of Flash player's stability on OS X. The recommendation I got was that you run nothing else on that browser, or at least nothing else that you care about keeping, if you plan on playing any Flash content on OS X.



    So whose fault was the Intel Pentium "divide by zero" bug? Intel's fault for a hardware design flaw? Or the software developers fault for not working around it? Maybe Intel should have told the developers "Just don't divide by zero".
  • Reply 86 of 135
    desuserigndesuserign Posts: 1,316member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by macslut View Post


    This most certainly is not about security.



    If it was about security, the solution would be obvious. The first time Safari launches as a new install or upgrade, it would load in a web page which would check the version of Flash installed. If it was installed, but lower than the most recent version it would alert you to this. Even I could write the code for this.



    Furthermore, Apple could include Flash in the Software Update making sure users are notified when new versions of Flash are released.



    Instead, Apple is insuring that users get the most recent version of Flash when they first install by having them manually do so, and then not putting anything in place to make sure they update Flash when they should.



    Apple may justifiably hate Flash. I hate it too, but this move doesn't help anyone who would choose to have Flash on their computer, and creates confusion along with a false sense of security.



    Yeah, right. And they could do that with every other "essential" POS third party software and plugin too, right?

    Your notion is ridiculous!
  • Reply 87 of 135
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mikemikeb View Post


    Here with Flash, how many people won't bother to download the software after they get their Mac?





    There you go, flash champion amongst us. Must be the money.
  • Reply 88 of 135
    brucepbrucep Posts: 2,823member
    Adobe is slowly losing all its golden gems .



    Adobe could be sharing in APPLE'S rise to the top . APPLE begged adode over the yrs to upgrade faster etc etc . The wintel world was a bigger fish i guess .
  • Reply 89 of 135
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 12,860member
    Consider the public uproar in the past when Apple shipped a problematic version of Flash whe an update was already available.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tods View Post


    Oh, come on. I'm no fan of Flash but the quote from the Apple apparatchik is plain old spin. With that reasoning, why include QuickTime with the MacBook Air? If you really want QuickTime support, you can download the latest version yourself.



    Never heard of software update on the Mac? Your point is silly because Apple has a facility to keep you updated as it is.

    Quote:

    Apple is just as capable of mouthing B.S. as is Microsoft or Google.



    Actually in the case of Flash and Java their moves make a lot of sense. Only people who really need and want the software will install them. It eliminates one more thing that Apple will need to support pushing that back upon the code owners.



    Interestingly by use of Flash and Java is split, I hate Flash so much that I only use it in extreme cases. On the otherhand I have more than a couple of Java based programs installed that I use on a regular basis. In either case I agree with Apple though, distribution of this software shouldn't be something Apple needs to worry about.
  • Reply 90 of 135
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by geekdad View Post


    AGREED! If that is their logic then why install any software? You have to "update" just about everything after a fresh install of Snow Leopard....this is just really lame Apple....



    Amazing amount of unjustified vitriol. Last I check Flash does not auto update on the Mac. You actually have to go download it from Adobe.



    Do you use a Mac? Do you know how Flash updating works? I'm confused at your sort of reply..
  • Reply 91 of 135
    noirdesirnoirdesir Posts: 1,027member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by geekdad View Post


    AGREED! If that is their logic then why install any software? You have to "update" just about everything after a fresh install of Snow Leopard....this is just really lame Apple....



    The difference is that Software Update will find any security updates for Apple software (the OS, Quicktime, Safari, etc.) but it does not find any updates for non-Apple software. Apple has no mechanism to update third-party software (except for open-source UNIX stuff which gets rolled into OS updates but also in a non-perfect manner, ie, not always in a timely manner, not least because it is tough for Apple to decide whether it update the shipped version which people might rely on).



    The Mac AppStore will offer a mechanism for security updates of third-party apps (but I am somewhat doubtful that plugins of any sort will be included, you'd rather have something like in-app purchasing for things like Safari extentions).
  • Reply 92 of 135
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 12,860member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by macslut View Post


    This most certainly is not about security.



    Nope it isn't from Apples view, rather it is about getting the most recent version of Flash. However since every release of Flash has addressed security issue you can't deny that security is in part a motivator. After all why ship a known security risk with your OS?

    Quote:

    If it was about security, the solution would be obvious. The first time Safari launches as a new install or upgrade, it would load in a web page which would check the version of Flash installed. If it was installed, but lower than the most recent version it would alert you to this. Even I could write the code for this.



    If this were the country, daddy would be taking you out to the wood shed for a whipping about now. Seriously this demonstrates a severe misunderstanding of the ways of software. Apple couldn't possibly program Safari to check up on every single plug in that could possibly run on Safari so why do it for anyone.



    Your statement just demonstrates a poor understanding of responsibility and feasability in the software world.

    Quote:

    Furthermore, Apple could include Flash in the Software Update making sure users are notified when new versions of Flash are released.



    Software update is for things Apple supports and obviously they want to reduce supporting third party software directly. On the otherhand this is one of the reasons I support the Mac App Store so much. With the same update mechanisms as iPhone app store we always have quick and clean access to software updates.

    Quote:

    Instead, Apple is insuring that users get the most recent version of Flash when they first install by having them manually do so, and then not putting anything in place to make sure they update Flash when they should.



    Whos responsibility is it to update Flash for the Mac?

    Quote:



    Apple may justifiably hate Flash. I hate it too, but this move doesn't help anyone who would choose to have Flash on their computer, and creates confusion along with a false sense of security.



    BS! Really what does Safari do now when it finds that a plugin is missing? Further why should Flash be a separate case here when many plugins are far better but yet don't get special consideration from Apple? All this is is Apple pushing responsibility for Flash back onto Adobe where it should be.



    Really there is nothing to get excited about or blow out of proportion here. Apple is simply correcting a mistake they made in the past which was considering Flash to be a special case. Instead it is treated like any other plugin. So again what is the big deal here?
  • Reply 93 of 135
    noirdesirnoirdesir Posts: 1,027member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by macslut View Post


    This most certainly is not about security.



    If it was about security, the solution would be obvious. The first time Safari launches as a new install or upgrade, it would load in a web page which would check the version of Flash installed. If it was installed, but lower than the most recent version it would alert you to this. Even I could write the code for this.



    Furthermore, Apple could include Flash in the Software Update making sure users are notified when new versions of Flash are released.



    Of course they could do it but Flash would be the only third-party software getting that special treatment. No third-party software gets updated by the OS at the moment.
  • Reply 94 of 135
    I love Apple products but their business tactics rival that of North Korean politics. Why not just come out and say that you want Adobe to go away? It's not even a rational fear because Adobe is not a direct competitor. Instead is one of Steve's petty peeves that has nothing to do with sound judgement. Apple should realize that if the great Steverino dies, it's over. There 's no Kim Yong Un for them ready to take the reigns. Any dictatorship that fosters a cult of personality like the Church of Jobs is doomed to fail. I really hope that doesn't happen because as long as I can jailbreak I will prefer any Apple product over the competition (except Apple TV )
  • Reply 95 of 135
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    1) It?s so odd that the posters that hate Apple having any control or success are now the ones that think it should be Apple?s responsibility to inform you that Flash needs to be updated.



    2) I?m always bemused by the phrase ?would that be so hard? when the objection obviously isn?t an issue of difficulty, but of other considerations. ?Why doesn?t Adobe include ClickToFlash with Flash? Would that be so hard??



    3) Why not come at this simple issue objectively? Would that be so hard?



    nice explanation... people here are trying there best to explain why flash should be pre-installed on mac and why it should not be pre-installed on mac... this is the most simple explanation i got it... i wish more people think here in this way...

    but hey then which funny things i can read if the forums are emtpy here?
  • Reply 96 of 135
    geekdadgeekdad Posts: 1,131member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ciaran00 View Post


    Amazing amount of unjustified vitriol. Last I check Flash does not auto update on the Mac. You actually have to go download it from Adobe.



    Do you use a Mac? Do you know how Flash updating works? I'm confused at your sort of reply..



    I do have a Mac I am writing this on my MBP..thank you. So what about all the other software that you can load? How does this get updated? exactly!! It gets updated through the vendor...exactly how Flash should be done....... But Apple's agenda is to eliminate Flash altogether....we all know this. So why hide behind it being a security flaw in Flash? The logic doesn't hold true. If they are worried about Flash being a 3rd party software and it not getting updates...then what about ALL other software that you and I install? Why are they not worried about everything else? Because that doesn't fit Apple's agenda...but eliminating or killing flash is their agenda......I don't care one way or the other but just come out and say it...don't make excuses......
  • Reply 97 of 135
    macslutmacslut Posts: 514member
    [QUOTE=several people wrote something similar] Apple couldn't do this and if they did they'd be giving preferential treatment to one plug-in[QUOTE]



    Uh...did any of you happen to notice that Apple has been bundling Flash with Safari since 2003? How is 7 years of doing this not giving special treatment to one plug-in to begin with?



    Not only that, but Apple does provide Software Update to 3rd parties, specifically major print vendors. It's the same thing here, only Flash is the only major plug-in...by far.



    Funny how this seems so onerous for Apple, but yet a non-profit was able to pull this off with Firefox.



    Again, this isn't about security, if it was, it would be trivial to code a solution that would improve security far better than what Apple decided to do.



    And as has been suggested that Flash in of itself is a security risk, then Apple could still have the auto-install and update, but still give users the option. Funny they went straight from a no-choice bundling (which could be removed after the install, but nobody did) to this new method.
  • Reply 98 of 135
    When developing software, Adobe, always remember that bugs are not the fault of the operating system you are developing on. If your software crashes, it is your responsibility to fix it. You don't send an email to the operating system maker and ask them to change the OS to work better with your software. This stuff is Development 101. You don't release it until it works.
  • Reply 99 of 135
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by geekdad View Post


    Couldn't have put it better! :-) At least come out and say it for what it is.....they want users to NOT install Flash..... I don't care one way or the other but just be genuine about it....

    If security was the driving force then close the operating system and not allow ALL third party software! How does Apple know if you will keep it updated? What if you install software and then the next week there is a known exploit for that software? in the best interest of the customer Apple should not let you install anything! They have no way to know if you will keep it updated! They have to protect you from yourself.....



    Well to be fair, the windows version of flash does have a software updater which notifies you

    when there's an update. So it might not be entirely apple's fault
  • Reply 100 of 135
    iliveriliver Posts: 299member
    No use complaining about the $1,000 netbook not arriving with pre-installed flash. Macs can't handle flash and the stingiest billionaire wants to spy on you with HTML5.



    http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/1...acy-and-html5/
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