Apple: Not preinstalling Flash on Macs ensures users have latest version

12346

Comments

  • Reply 101 of 135
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iLiver View Post


    No use complaining about the $1,000 netbook not arriving with pre-installed flash. Macs can't handle flash and the stingiest billionaire wants to spy on you with HTML5.



    http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/1...acy-and-html5/



    You're a troll. Shut up and go away. I refuse to further acknowledge your posts.
  • Reply 102 of 135
    jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,949member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by macslut View Post


    This most certainly is not about security.



    If it was about security, the solution would be obvious. The first time Safari launches as a new install or upgrade, it would load in a web page which would check the version of Flash installed. If it was installed, but lower than the most recent version it would alert you to this. Even I could write the code for this.



    Furthermore, Apple could include Flash in the Software Update making sure users are notified when new versions of Flash are released.



    I'm sure there are other unsaid reasons, but this reason does have some validity too.



    Please explain why Apple should be expected to make an update notification system for a company that failed to make their own? Adobe is a grown-up company, expecting Apple to dote on Adobe like an overgrown infant like that has to be an insult against Adobe.



    I would say the reason why it's a problem now and not back in 2003 or whenever is Flash didn't have known critical security bugs until somewhat recently.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Haggar View Post


    So whose fault was the Intel Pentium "divide by zero" bug? Intel's fault for a hardware design flaw? Or the software developers fault for not working around it? Maybe Intel should have told the developers "Just don't divide by zero".



    What divide by zero bug? There's an FDIV bug but that's not divide by zero. Those chips were later recalled too.
  • Reply 103 of 135
    applappl Posts: 348member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


    I'm sure there are other unsaid reasons, but this reason does have some validity too.



    .





    Other reasons that have "some validity":



    We want to protect you!

    You might do something stupid!

    We don't trust you to understand!

    We don't ship ANY third party software (OK, that's not valid).
  • Reply 104 of 135
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


    What are examples of popular Air desktop apps?



    +1



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Wurm5150 View Post


    From your new Macbook Air and/or future Macs, go to this site..

    http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/ And move on with your life..



    If you feel so strongly about Apple not shipping Flash with new Macs, and just don't want the hassle of making a few clicks in Adobe's website to install Flash yourself then go get a Windows PC that comes with Flash preinstalled.



    +1



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post


    Yes. This is correct. Apple is spinning it very cleverly. But they are trowing up a barrier to use/adoption for Flash. They are pulling out the stops to try and wound or even kill off Flash. Good for them.



    I think it's spun cleverly, Apple is clever. They are not perfect, they are not the Messiah of the Corporate World that speaks no wrong and does no evil. It could appear vindictive but we won't know the full reasons.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Wurm5150 View Post


    How much are you selling your Macs for? What are they? If your selling it at a good deal I'm sure some of the people here would be interested in taking it off your hands and end whatever anger or indifference you have with Apple.







    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tods View Post


    Apple can do whatever they want. I'm not arguing that they should be forced to bundle Flash, or to unbundle QuickTime. But for them to claim that leaving Flash out of a standard installation actually facilitates users getting the latest version is a lame effort at spin. Apple doesn't want to support Flash for competitive reasons -- which is fine with me, but I'd prefer to hear the truth instead of some bizarre rationalization.



    Like I said, Apple ain't perfect. It is a company run by humans, not angels. Last time I checked. It would be nice to hear the real truth, but sometimes, people don't *want* to hear the truth.



    I would say a large chunk of iPhone, iPad and Mac purchases are not really even rational decisions. It's only after they've got it that if, they bother to learn a little, the users will start to realise the gem in their hands, but also the limitations of what they bought.



    BTW, remember, Steve is getting older so this could lead to more eccentricities down the line. But nothing alarming so far, IMHO.
  • Reply 105 of 135
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by brucep View Post


    Adobe is slowly losing all its golden gems .



    Adobe could be sharing in APPLE'S rise to the top . APPLE begged adode over the yrs to upgrade faster etc etc . The wintel world was a bigger fish i guess .



    Adobe saw the Mac designer market drying up somewhat through the last 10 years compared to how many use PCs, and Adobe needed to grow their market so they've invested in a whole bunch of stuff like PDF workflows and what not to go big into the corporate IT world.



    That's left them up the Mobile creek without a paddle. They still have that big boat in the Corporate Sea though.
  • Reply 106 of 135
    applappl Posts: 348member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post


    +1





    Last time I checked. It would be nice to hear the real truth, but sometimes, people don't *want* to hear the truth.






    A wiser man than I once said "You can fool some of the people all of the time".
  • Reply 107 of 135
    brucepbrucep Posts: 2,823member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post


    Adobe saw the Mac designer market drying up somewhat through the last 10 years compared to how many use PCs, and Adobe needed to grow their market so they've invested in a whole bunch of stuff like PDF workflows and what not to go big into the corporate IT world.



    That's left them up the Mobile creek without a paddle. They still have that big boat in the Corporate Sea though.



    Adobe's ultra slow upgrade system had a lot to do with apple slow demise . Yes i agree with your post .Yet adobe walks around like them and apple was blood brothers back in the mac OS8.8 DAYS .



    I worked in a printing shop and we did 8 yr slow burn waiting on adobe .And when Adobe bought and killed GO LIVE . The final straw was laid .



    and now who's the king ??



    peace



    9
  • Reply 108 of 135
    macslutmacslut Posts: 514member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


    I'm sure there are other unsaid reasons, but this reason does have some validity too.



    Please explain why Apple should be expected to make an update notification system for a company that failed to make their own? Adobe is a grown-up company, expecting Apple to dote on Adobe like an overgrown infant like that has to be an insult against Adobe.



    I would say the reason why it's a problem now and not back in 2003 or whenever is Flash didn't have known critical security bugs until somewhat recently.



    I don't think it has any validity whatsoever. Adobe has always had an update mechanism for Flash. The non-profit Mozilla.org has always used this mechanism for Firefox. In fact, Firefox checks all plug-ins for being up to date. Other browsers besides Safari have done this from the beginning as well.



    The problem is that there's no way for a plug-in by itself to take control of the OS and check for an update and install. That's the constraint on plug-ins that Apple placed in Safari. A plug-in can be checked for being up to date by either pinging the server through Software Update or having the browser visit a page that runs a script checking the version number that's installed. It's very simple code and low impact. It makes far more sense for SU or Safari to do this than having every plug-in developer create their own update mechanisms, not that they could with Safari.



    In short, Adobe provided the update mechanism on their end, and other browser developers from the beginning implemented this, except for Apple.



    And now, Apple isn't doing anything to improve security, which is why I'm saying there's no validity to this. What Apple is doing is making sure people get the right version of Flash when they install, but then doing nothing to check to make sure they keep up to date. How is that more secure than all the other browsers that do check to see if they're up to date?



    While Flash may have had an increase in security bugs recently, it's always had a variety of other issues that were fixed with updates. Most often these updates occurred with new versions of Safari being installed or web developers doing the version check, but the version frequency has actually tapered off since 2003.



    But again, if this was about security, Apple could very easily implement update checking for Flash, (and other plug-ins), and the bottom line is that mechanism would offer the best security for Mac users as well as the best user experience.



    Even if Apple was to have the courage to say, "We just hate Flash and will do anything to destroy it", that would be perfectly fine...no complaint from me, but if Apple wants to improve security, they still should do update checking.



    And remember, this comes from someone who hates Flash and wants to see it die. However, since it's still out there and being used, Apple should look at what's in the best interest of its users as opposed to battling over this, and not being honest about their actions.
  • Reply 109 of 135
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by trip1ex View Post


    No coincidence that this move to not update/include Java and Flash on Macs coincides with the upcoming app store.



    It could seem that way. Only thing is that Adobe Air is what would compete with native Mac apps, not the Adobe Flash plugin which runs only in browsers (though Flash and Air *are* closely related).



    We shall see!
  • Reply 110 of 135
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Blackintosh View Post


    You are not everybody.



    don't know if this is the root of Blackie's objection, but just thought that needed to be put out there.
  • Reply 111 of 135
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by macslut View Post


    This most certainly is not about security.



    If it was about security, the solution would be obvious. The first time Safari launches as a new install or upgrade, it would load in a web page which would check the version of Flash installed. If it was installed, but lower than the most recent version it would alert you to this. Even I could write the code for this.



    Furthermore, Apple could include Flash in the Software Update making sure users are notified when new versions of Flash are released.



    Instead, Apple is insuring that users get the most recent version of Flash when they first install by having them manually do so, and then not putting anything in place to make sure they update Flash when they should.



    Apple may justifiably hate Flash. I hate it too, but this move doesn't help anyone who would choose to have Flash on their computer, and creates confusion along with a false sense of security.



    Only someone manifestly myopic would make a statement that it is all about security - and Apple never made that statement now did they?



    Given that Apple appears to be driving some level of convergence between (first the two sets of iOS) MacOS and iOS, why not clean house? Why continue to prop up a development house that routinely lags in development and update of the software that is ported to your platform? That instead of stepping up and delivering a Flash mobile that truly works well on mobile devices - tosses off one that takes a crap on all but the latest hardware and OS - regardless of platform? Or that when challenged to prove Apple's decision wrong in finally giving up on waiting for them to move into the 21st century with Flash, instead filed a complaint with the FTC alleging anti-competitive behavior?



    Why continue to throw pearls before swine? Few PCs comes installed with Flash - you have to go grab the plugin. Now you have to do the same with the MacOS, why is this such an issue for so many commenters here? Or is the cult of personality such a deadly attraction for you that pure business motives are not enough. That pragmatic decision-making needs to be dressed in a furious Steve Jobs tossing chairs across the room a la Steve Balmer, or leading a funeral procession across the campus announcing the death of Flash? IF Flash was a keystone product - Adobe would have been on top of this from the start. They weren't and it was only AFTER they realized that they could lose revenue by not moving Flash ahead that they panicked - by then Apple had written them off.



    It is not Apple's job to support Adobe if Adobe doesn't even do it themselves, and it makes no business sense to continue to have to clean-up and wipe the chin of Adobe, when they are perfectly capable of taking care of themselves if they choose to do so.



    Why try to dress this up in stupid emotional crap when it stands fine on simple business logic - back to school for quite a few of you: Business 101.



    Ed Ryu - post a link when you put your Mac kit up on eBay. Better you relieve yourself of the horror of Mac ownership than to continue to be so conflicted.
  • Reply 112 of 135
    jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,949member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by macslut View Post


    I don't think it has any validity whatsoever. Adobe has always had an update mechanism for Flash. The non-profit Mozilla.org has always used this mechanism for Firefox. In fact, Firefox checks all plug-ins for being up to date. Other browsers besides Safari have done this from the beginning as well.



    In short, Adobe provided the update mechanism on their end, and other browser developers from the beginning implemented this, except for Apple.



    Firefox's system is very limited, it only bothers to check when Firefox is updated. What other browsers have implemented this?



    I'm not convinced that a plug-in can't notify users of updates in the windows they're given. In the past, I've seen Flash tell me that I need a new version because a site uses features not implemented in the installed version. Also, Flash is a fairly comprehensive programming environment to itself, how Flash player can't check a server once a week to notify the user if Adobe so chooses, I don't know.
  • Reply 113 of 135
    nvidia2008nvidia2008 Posts: 9,262member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


    Firefox's system is very limited, it only bothers to check when Firefox is updated. What other browsers have implemented this?



    I'm not convinced that a plug-in can't notify users of updates in the windows they're given. In the past, I've seen Flash tell me that I need a new version because a site uses features not implemented in the installed version. Also, Flash is a fairly comprehensive programming environment to itself, how Flash player can't check a server once a week to notify the user if Adobe so chooses, I don't know.



    Yeah, well even if you install Adobe Air it doesn't quite check for updates automatically, and Air operates outside of the browser plugin sandbox. A little cooperation between Apple and Adobe could see Flash easily checking itself that it was up to date. At this stage of the game though, I expect just nasty comments from Adobe in a blog or something. ...I'm not saying Apple is totally beyond reproach, but just hoping the relationship doesn't just deteriorate further.
  • Reply 114 of 135
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post


    Apple has issued an official comment on the lack of preinstalled Adobe Flash on the newly released MacBook Air and all future Macs, saying the change was done to ensure that users always have the latest version of Flash by downloading directly from Adobe.



    Earlier this week, when it was discovered the new MacBook Air models ship without Flash installed, some assumed the change was made because of the ongoing rivalry between Adobe and Apple. But Apple spokesman Bill Evans gave Engadget an official comment on Friday saying otherwise.



    "We're happy to continue to support Flash on the Mac, and the best way for users to always have the most up to date and secure version is to download it directly from Adobe," Evans reportedly said.



    He also went on to say that all Macs in the future will not have Adobe Flash preinstalled, though it was said that some hardware already in the channels may come with Flash.



    Apple and Adobe have been at odds in 2010, in a feud that gained considerable steam after Apple Chief Executive Steve Jobs published an open letter criticizing Flash as old technology that is unfit for the modern era of mobile computers. Apple does not allow Flash onto its iOS-powered devices, including the iPhone and iPad.



    Jobs also revealed that Flash is the number one reason for crashes on the Mac platform. For its part, Adobe fired back and said that any crashes of Flash in Mac OS X are not related to its software, but are instead the fault of Apple's operating system.



    Jobs is correct I downloaded the new adobe flash app and it crashed 3x already with the Mozilla Firefox download included. Flash is not that great.
  • Reply 115 of 135
    applappl Posts: 348member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by LewysBlackmore View Post


    ...someone manifestly myopic

    ...

    why not clean house? Why continue to prop up a development house ...



    ...tosses off one that takes a crap on all ...



    Why continue to throw pearls before swine? ...



    ... the cult of personality such a deadly attraction ...



    ... a furious Steve Jobs tossing chairs across the room ...



    ...leading a funeral procession across the campus ...



    ...they panicked...



    ...Adobe doesn't even do it themselves, and it makes no business sense to continue to have to clean-up and wipe the chin of Adobe, when they are perfectly capable of taking care of themselves if they choose to do so.



    ... dress this up in stupid emotional crap ...



    ...relieve yourself of the horror of Mac ownership ...









    You write well. Please keep posting this sort of rant. It has great entertainment value.
  • Reply 116 of 135
    In Steve Jobs' "Back to the Mac" Keynote, Pixelmator made it in the Lion screenshot of apps while Photoshop was MIA.



    http://www.pixelmator.com/weblog/
  • Reply 117 of 135
    Re: Pixelmator. Good catch. Not QUITE the same thing, since the size of the downloads are quite different, but still something I'll bet was discussed before the presentation was finalized. In fact, I'm sure every single program on those screens was discussed before the presentation was finalized.
  • Reply 118 of 135
    nvidia2008nvidia2008 Posts: 9,262member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rtamesis View Post


    In Steve Jobs' "Back to the Mac" Keynote, Pixelmator made it in the Lion screenshot of apps while Photoshop was MIA.



    http://www.pixelmator.com/weblog/



    Oh, I don't think it was malicious as such, at this stage it's not entirely clear how such a huge program, usually sold as a suite of gigabytes and gigabytes of files and templates etc., would be delivered through the Mac app store.



    Also, Apple getting 30% of Adobe sales revenue through this channel, would be something quite overwhelming for Adobe at this point in the game.
  • Reply 119 of 135
    nvidia2008nvidia2008 Posts: 9,262member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by GregoriusM View Post


    Re: Pixelmator. Good catch. Not QUITE the same thing, since the size of the downloads are quite different, but still something I'll bet was discussed before the presentation was finalized. In fact, I'm sure every single program on those screens was discussed before the presentation was finalized.



    I think they planned to use dummy apps, as I can see in the presentation, maybe at the last minute they had some select devs on board.
  • Reply 120 of 135
    pmzpmz Posts: 3,433member
    Ever so clever move by Apple.



    1. Removes the nightmare security risk that is that horrible POS, Flash.



    2. Takes the number of Macs with Flash preinstalled from all to zero. Awesome. I dreamed this would happen eventually, but definitely did not expect it to be real.



    3. Makes my life easier. Rather than having to use clicktoflash, I can just not install anything.



    4. Mac App Store will be the end of my need of Flash. Lots of content will be distributed this way, hopefully replacing much of the Flash content out there, and the Mac will be become more App centric than it is now. I see this as a very good thing, because if the App store can do for Macs what it did for iPhones and iPads, then we have something great use time on the horizon for our Macs.
Sign In or Register to comment.