What has Warren Buffet achieved? Investors sit on their lazy asses and make money from other people's achievements (the working class who have higher tax rates).
Warren Buffet has made more people rich then you or I while we sit on our lazy asses, is what he has achieved!
'make money from other people's achievements'... Man, where did you get your edukashun?! (</sarcasm>). I've never seen Buffet TAKE people's money as does Obama and the Federal Government! Buffet is willing to spread the wealth around if you are FREELY willing to take a risk with your investment. Obama wants to TAKE your money from your hard earned success and spread it around PERIOD! Show me where Buffet favored taking over a private company to save the Union's lazy ass pension fund, while demanding the firing of the CEO and screwing the bond holder investors? I can show you where Obama did it... GM!
For the love of Pete, WAKE-UP!
'(the working class who have higher tax rates)'... Sigh, it's like talking to a brick wall people...
"Critics of Bush's three tax relief plans charge that only the wealthy benefited from the reductions in marginal tax rates. But is this true? And more broadly, do the wealthiest Americans pay their "fair share" of the tax burden?
The evidence shows that all Americans, rich and poor, benefited from President Bush's tax cuts. The rich saw taxes on their dividends and capital gains reduced (as well as their income taxes), and personal income tax rates were slashed across the board, which encompassed every middle-class taxpayer. Even the poor, who generally do not pay income taxes, were rewarded with a higher Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC) and child tax credits.
Progressivity and the Tax Burden
Our tax system, however, is highly progressive, meaning that as one's income rises, a higher proportion of that income is taxed. Thus, those in the highest tax brackets contribute more to the overall tax burden even though there are far more people in lower tax brackets.1
According to data from the IRS, the bottom 50 percent of income earners pay approximately 4 percent of income taxes.
The top 25 percent of income earners pay nearly 83 percent of the income tax burden, and the top 10 percent pay 65 percent.
The top 1 percent of income earners pay almost 35 percent of all income taxes.
The top 400 richest Americans paid 1.58 of total income taxes in 2000.
Ha ha, I'm getting a kick out of watching all the closet communists come out to play.
I must beg to ask, how to you think the individuals "who control the purse stings" came to be in that position? I can guarantee it wasn't by sitting on their lazy ass cashing in welfare cheques.
Apple is the product of Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak (two nobodies) tinkering with toys in a garage. Google. Facebook etc were all stared from an idea that an average Joe had, and knew what do to do with.
There may be an uneven distribution of wealth under capitalism, but everyone has a fair chance to get to the top.
It stuns me as well. People simply do not grasp the enormous benefits that SJ has bestowed upon planet Earth by applying his vision and other talents into Apple.
It is worth billions. It's capitalism in action. Entrepreneurialism is America's competitive advantage.
We don't have equal wealth in this country because we don't have equal talent and ambition.
So, the top 25% of income pays 35% of taxes. That's progressive, but not "highly progressive" as you claim. The reason is, of course, that top earners pay far lower effective tax rates than the tax tables would indicate due to the tens of thousands of deductions available.
The top 400 taxpayers pay a lower effective tax rate than the top 5%. In fact, the top 400 taxpayer paid a lower effective tax rate last year than I did - and I'm nowhere near the top 5%.
We really need to switch to a new tax system. My proposal would be:
First $50,000 of income is tax free. All the rest taxed at 20% (or whatever the number needs to be for equalizing the current total tax revenue).
Or, alternatively:
First $50,000 of income is tax free. Next $200,000 at 15%, remainder at 25%.
AND NO DEDUCTIONS FOR ANYTHING.
The country would save tens of billions of dollars on tax compliance and the system would be far more fair for everyone - which is why it will never be enacted.
This tech wouldn't work with an iPad... First you need a camera. Second you have to be far enough away from the device to fit within the camera's field of view.
However, Apple already has a patent that describes how you could detect a finger hovering just above the screen without needing to actually touch it, and without the need of a camera...
Obviously it wouldn't work with the iPad as it is now, it would need to have been integrated from the start!
All the kinect tech does is project a matrix of infrared dots which are read by two IR cameras to calculate a 3d model of what's in front; there's no reason this couldn't have been adapted to work at a much shorter range. It's actually pretty similar to the tech in the linked patent, though that uses an array of IR sensors rather than just two IR cameras.
I always forget the part about "when engaging in a battle of wits, it is always polite to make sure your opponent is armed."
It is easy to spot too. When all they do is quote a right-wing radio host, there is no point in putting the effort into a lengthy response. I liked your response, but the shorter and simpler one was probably more appropriate for the audience.
Finally a voice of reason! I was starting to think we live in communist China.
I?m with you guys. Money is Freedom. No money, no candy.
Money buys you airwaves, anchormen-women, news desks, a Congressman-woman or two or three, cheap foreign laborers here and abroad by the thousands, the best health care system money can buy, and the means to get away from it all when the cheap ungrateful pseudo victims, those grassroots small d democrats, try to cheat their ways into your subconscious comfort zone.
It feels so good to be top tier. Inherited? Good for me, my gene pool deserves it!
Won at the crap table ? Well, lucky I am, Quantum Mechanics works for me?!
Got a Hedge Fund blank check in a downturn ? Bless the Lord Space-Time is on my side!
Hard earned out of squeezing the fringe out of the neighbor?s benefits? How clever of me?, striking gold while mining sweat.
I tell you guys, a prosperous Amerika for me is two third sweat shop, one third moral rot. Apple does it in China while it could sweat it out in California, what a shame for the "gotcha" third in us?!
Balmer has been working his butt off for Microsoft since before IBM invented the PC and before Microsoft introduced DOS and Windows. He deserves every penny he has earned. If you want to live in a society where the government dictates everything, move to a communist country, please.
I don't disagree one whit with your point that Ballmer deserves every penny he has earned. Indeed, he can do with it as he pleases.
But why do some folks -- like you -- have to turn around make it about whether the person with whom they disagree should stay or leave their home country?
Such intolerant arrogance never ceases to surprise me.
Warren Buffet has made more people rich then you or I while we sit on our lazy asses, is what he has achieved!
'make money from other people's achievements'... Man, where did you get your edukashun?! (</sarcasm>). I've never seen Buffet TAKE people's money as does Obama and the Federal Government! Buffet is willing to spread the wealth around if you are FREELY willing to take a risk with your investment. Obama wants to TAKE your money from your hard earned success and spread it around PERIOD! Show me where Buffet favored taking over a private company to save the Union's lazy ass pension fund, while demanding the firing of the CEO and screwing the bond holder investors? I can show you where Obama did it... GM!
For the love of Pete, WAKE-UP!
'(the working class who have higher tax rates)'... Sigh, it's like talking to a brick wall people...
"Critics of Bush's three tax relief plans charge that only the wealthy benefited from the reductions in marginal tax rates. But is this true? And more broadly, do the wealthiest Americans pay their "fair share" of the tax burden?
The evidence shows that all Americans, rich and poor, benefited from President Bush's tax cuts. The rich saw taxes on their dividends and capital gains reduced (as well as their income taxes), and personal income tax rates were slashed across the board, which encompassed every middle-class taxpayer. Even the poor, who generally do not pay income taxes, were rewarded with a higher Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC) and child tax credits.
Progressivity and the Tax Burden
Our tax system, however, is highly progressive, meaning that as one's income rises, a higher proportion of that income is taxed. Thus, those in the highest tax brackets contribute more to the overall tax burden even though there are far more people in lower tax brackets.1
According to data from the IRS, the bottom 50 percent of income earners pay approximately 4 percent of income taxes.
The top 25 percent of income earners pay nearly 83 percent of the income tax burden, and the top 10 percent pay 65 percent.
The top 1 percent of income earners pay almost 35 percent of all income taxes.
The top 400 richest Americans paid 1.58 of total income taxes in 2000.
Well I fall squarely into that top 1% and I think the 18% Capital gains tax is absurd and unjustifiable. I have no guilt, I play plenty of taxes at that 18% rate and can guarantee you my life would not be any different if it were taxed as regular income. My investment strategy would change little if any.
I find that most of the people who make right wing ideologue arguments have no real experience with what they are talking about. 99% of individual investors have their money in a tax sheltered plan of some kind and the capital gains tax does in fact only help people in the top income brackets.
The country is under an unsustainable debt load. Neither party in the US is willing to reduce spending at all. Money has to come from somewhere and you can't squeeze blood from a stone. It really is that simple. Balmer, me, SJ, more than likely you have all benefited more from being here than the single mother pulling two shifts at the 7-11. Did I work hard? Yes. Does she work hard? Yes. Can she make her mortgage payment if you raise her taxes 1%? No. Can I still get my new boat next year if capital gains are taxed as regular income? Yes.
Is it fair? Grow up.
One additional point.. I think out entire tax system is BS and we should start over. Dick Army had the right idea, it is too bad no one listened. I think a real flat tax where everything dollar over say $25,000 is taxed at 25% (numbers are examples only) is more fair to everyone. It is more fair to the poor, it is more efficient for the government and the only people it really hurts are tax accountants. (I know homebuilders think everyone will move into apartments without the interest tax credit, but they are shortsighted morons). It is more fair to the rich.
Let me guess... You are a graduate of the Keith Olbermann School of Polite Discourse? Tell me... Did you graduate with a Latin Honor of Cum Laud... Er... MSNBC Honor of Worse, Worser, Worst Person in the World degree, when it came to hearing and tolerating an opposing view?
If I said "UC Berkeley", would that ease or increase the pain of your hatred for all people that oppose your point of view?
If I said "followed by 6 years as a Marine Corps officer with two combat tours of Vietnam" would that help you decide whether I am fit to have a discussion with you where we agree to disagree?
If I said "I'm liberal in my views, but conservative with your money" would you accept and agree with my investment advice?
My response to the OP that started most of this was somewhat harsh, I agree. Mostly it was sarcastic criticism of "the earth is flat" thinking.
But how do you respond to someone that shouts with multiple !!! on nearly everything they type, throw big words around that they clearly have no idea as to the meaning of, call out people as lazy asses, communists, or bums, and in general just make a nuisance of themselves?
Oh, right. I forgot. You throw money in a coffer and have them run for office under the Tea Party moniker. 'cause, you know, "we're all mad as hell and we're not going to take it anymore!"
Balmer has been working his butt off for Microsoft since before IBM invented the PC and before Microsoft introduced DOS and Windows. He deserves every penny he has earned. If you want to live in a society where the government dictates everything, move to a communist country, please.
Well I fall squarely into that top 1% and I think the 18% Capital gains tax is absurd and unjustifiable. I have no guilt, I play plenty of taxes at that 18% rate and can guarantee you my life would not be any different if it were taxed as regular income. My investment strategy would change little if any.
I find that most of the people who make right wing ideologue arguments have no real experience with what they are talking about. 99% of individual investors have their money in a tax sheltered plan of some kind and the capital gains tax does in fact only help people in the top income brackets.
The country is under an unsustainable debt load. Neither party in the US is willing to reduce spending at all. Money has to come from somewhere and you can't squeeze blood from a stone. It really is that simple. Balmer, me, SJ, more than likely you have all benefited more from being here than the single mother pulling two shifts at the 7-11. Did I work hard? Yes. Does she work hard? Yes. Can she make her mortgage payment if you raise her taxes 1%? No. Can I still get my new boat next year if capital gains are taxed as regular income? Yes.
Is it fair? Grow up.
One additional point.. I think out entire tax system is BS and we should start over. Dick Army had the right idea, it is too bad no one listened. I think a real flat tax where everything dollar over say $25,000 is taxed at 25% (numbers are examples only) is more fair to everyone. It is more fair to the poor, it is more efficient for the government and the only people it really hurts are tax accountants. (I know homebuilders think everyone will move into apartments without the interest tax credit, but they are shortsighted morons). It is more fair to the rich.
The country is under an unsustainable debt load. Neither party in the US is willing to reduce spending at all. Money has to come from somewhere and you can't squeeze blood from a stone. It really is that simple. Balmer, me, SJ, more than likely you have all benefited more from being here than the single mother pulling two shifts at the 7-11. Did I work hard? Yes. Does she work hard? Yes. Can she make her mortgage payment if you raise her taxes 1%? No. Can I still get my new boat next year if capital gains are taxed as regular income? Yes.
I don't disagree one whit with your point that Ballmer deserves every penny he has earned. Indeed, he can do with it as he pleases.
But why do some folks -- like you -- have to turn around make it about whether the person with whom they disagree should stay or leave their home country?
Such intolerant arrogance never ceases to surprise me.
Capitalism is the foundation of the USA. The people complaining here about it want a communist society instead of a capitalistic one.
Well I fall squarely into that top 1% and I think the 18% Capital gains tax is absurd and unjustifiable. I have no guilt, I play plenty of taxes at that 18% rate and can guarantee you my life would not be any different if it were taxed as regular income. My investment strategy would change little if any.
I find that most of the people who make right wing ideologue arguments have no real experience with what they are talking about. 99% of individual investors have their money in a tax sheltered plan of some kind and the capital gains tax does in fact only help people in the top income brackets.
The country is under an unsustainable debt load. Neither party in the US is willing to reduce spending at all. Money has to come from somewhere and you can't squeeze blood from a stone. It really is that simple. Balmer, me, SJ, more than likely you have all benefited more from being here than the single mother pulling two shifts at the 7-11. Did I work hard? Yes. Does she work hard? Yes. Can she make her mortgage payment if you raise her taxes 1%? No. Can I still get my new boat next year if capital gains are taxed as regular income? Yes.
Is it fair? Grow up.
One additional point.. I think out entire tax system is BS and we should start over. Dick Army had the right idea, it is too bad no one listened. I think a real flat tax where everything dollar over say $25,000 is taxed at 25% (numbers are examples only) is more fair to everyone. It is more fair to the poor, it is more efficient for the government and the only people it really hurts are tax accountants. (I know homebuilders think everyone will move into apartments without the interest tax credit, but they are shortsighted morons). It is more fair to the rich.
While I fully agree with your last paragraph, I'll take issue with your first couple.
First, just because you would not change your investing strategy in the face of a doubling of capital gains rates does not mean that others wouldn't and shouldn't. Investing strategy should always take tax rates into consideration. Few people in the top 1% have such little saved that it can all be tax deferred. The majority have significant assets in taxable instruments. This is particularly true of entrepreneurs with substantial company stock. The rest of us can at least take advantage of tax-managed mutual funds.
Second, trying to pay for runaway spending by taxing the wealthy is a losing strategy. Unfortunately, the wealthy simply don't have enough money to fund government spending at its current run rate. Further, the wealthy represent an extremely small, and therefore volatile, tax base. In times of recession the wealthy are disproportionately impacted and when they represent the majority of tax revenue, tax revenue is similarly impacted. The only stable revenue stream is a broad-based revenue stream.
Well I fall squarely into that top 1% and I think the 18% Capital gains tax is absurd and unjustifiable. I have no guilt, I play plenty of taxes at that 18% rate and can guarantee you my life would not be any different if it were taxed as regular income. My investment strategy would change little if any.
I think that unearned income should be taxed just like earned income. If not the same, then higher.
I also think that we need to index capital gains against inflation, to avoid distorting the reality of the underlying ownership decisions.
The guy sweating for $40 grand a year should pay taxes, and so should the old guy earning $40 grand from his investments.
Index long term capital gains for inflation, so no tax is paid on the portion of gain that results from differences in currency values. That is only fair.
But don't give preferential tax treatment to equity positions over fixed income positions, and especially don't give equity positions preferential treatment over wages, because wages are income earned from productive activity. We need more productive activity.
Ha ha, I'm getting a kick out of watching all the closet communists come out to play.
I must beg to ask, how to you think the individuals "who control the purse stings" came to be in that position? I can guarantee it wasn't by sitting on their lazy ass cashing in welfare cheques.
Apple is the product of Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak (two nobodies) tinkering with toys in a garage. Google. Facebook etc were all stared from an idea that an average Joe had, and knew what do to do with.
There may be an uneven distribution of wealth under capitalism, but everyone has a fair chance to get to the top.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jd_in_sb
How do people go from nothing to controlling "purse strings" of their industry? Through achievement.
You guys are just showing your extreme ignorance of any kind of political history or polisci knowledge. But hey, what does the average American know about politics or history anyway?
Every European country, and most Asian/African countries (in other words most of the rest of the world), has had socialist periods, communist periods, and capitalist periods in their history and are well aware of the differences between all three. The USA has only ever been capitalist and it has routinely for it's entire existence ridiculed, demonised, criticised, and sometimes even destroyed other nations who don't ascribe to their politics or to capitalism in general. You guys just don't have the history or the knowledge to know what you're talking about.
The average American citizen doesn't even have the correct definition of "socialism" or social democracy," and has no direct experience with it. It's just a buzz word used as a pejorative in almost the same way that you would call a rude poster on the forum a name like *ssh*le or whatever.
Capitalism is not a meritocracy. If it was, money and IP would not be inheritable for starters. People can get in control of the "purse strings" without necessarily doing anything but being born into the right family, and if you go look up the facts of the matter, you will find that this is true for the vast majority of those currently sitting on top of the capitalist heap.
The basic unfairness of capitalism as a system for distribution of wealth and happiness has been documented over and over in everything from history books to fairy tales since it's very inception. The generalised blindness of Americans, and the fact that you may not have had access to a good political history class in college notwithstanding.
Comments
What has Warren Buffet achieved? Investors sit on their lazy asses and make money from other people's achievements (the working class who have higher tax rates).
Warren Buffet has made more people rich then you or I while we sit on our lazy asses, is what he has achieved!
'make money from other people's achievements'... Man, where did you get your edukashun?! (</sarcasm>). I've never seen Buffet TAKE people's money as does Obama and the Federal Government! Buffet is willing to spread the wealth around if you are FREELY willing to take a risk with your investment. Obama wants to TAKE your money from your hard earned success and spread it around PERIOD! Show me where Buffet favored taking over a private company to save the Union's lazy ass pension fund, while demanding the firing of the CEO and screwing the bond holder investors? I can show you where Obama did it... GM!
For the love of Pete, WAKE-UP!
'(the working class who have higher tax rates)'... Sigh, it's like talking to a brick wall people...
"Critics of Bush's three tax relief plans charge that only the wealthy benefited from the reductions in marginal tax rates. But is this true? And more broadly, do the wealthiest Americans pay their "fair share" of the tax burden?
The evidence shows that all Americans, rich and poor, benefited from President Bush's tax cuts. The rich saw taxes on their dividends and capital gains reduced (as well as their income taxes), and personal income tax rates were slashed across the board, which encompassed every middle-class taxpayer. Even the poor, who generally do not pay income taxes, were rewarded with a higher Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC) and child tax credits.
Progressivity and the Tax Burden
Our tax system, however, is highly progressive, meaning that as one's income rises, a higher proportion of that income is taxed. Thus, those in the highest tax brackets contribute more to the overall tax burden even though there are far more people in lower tax brackets.1
According to data from the IRS, the bottom 50 percent of income earners pay approximately 4 percent of income taxes.
The top 25 percent of income earners pay nearly 83 percent of the income tax burden, and the top 10 percent pay 65 percent.
The top 1 percent of income earners pay almost 35 percent of all income taxes.
The top 400 richest Americans paid 1.58 of total income taxes in 2000.
http://taxesandgrowth.ncpa.org/news/...eir-fair-share
Ha ha, I'm getting a kick out of watching all the closet communists come out to play.
I must beg to ask, how to you think the individuals "who control the purse stings" came to be in that position? I can guarantee it wasn't by sitting on their lazy ass cashing in welfare cheques.
Apple is the product of Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak (two nobodies) tinkering with toys in a garage. Google. Facebook etc were all stared from an idea that an average Joe had, and knew what do to do with.
There may be an uneven distribution of wealth under capitalism, but everyone has a fair chance to get to the top.
It stuns me as well. People simply do not grasp the enormous benefits that SJ has bestowed upon planet Earth by applying his vision and other talents into Apple.
It is worth billions. It's capitalism in action. Entrepreneurialism is America's competitive advantage.
We don't have equal wealth in this country because we don't have equal talent and ambition.
According to data from the IRS, the bottom 50 percent of income earners pay approximately 4 percent of income taxes.
The top 25 percent of income earners pay nearly 83 percent of the income tax burden, and the top 10 percent pay 65 percent.
The top 1 percent of income earners pay almost 35 percent of all income taxes.
The top 400 richest Americans paid 1.58 of total income taxes in 2000.
These numbers are meaningless without comparisons of percentage of income.
The only one I could find (in just a few minutes of looking) said that the top 1% of earners earn about 25% of income:
http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/20...X_GRAPHIC.html
So, the top 25% of income pays 35% of taxes. That's progressive, but not "highly progressive" as you claim. The reason is, of course, that top earners pay far lower effective tax rates than the tax tables would indicate due to the tens of thousands of deductions available.
Here's another one:
http://www.forbes.com/2009/01/29/irs...americans.html
The top 400 taxpayers pay a lower effective tax rate than the top 5%. In fact, the top 400 taxpayer paid a lower effective tax rate last year than I did - and I'm nowhere near the top 5%.
We really need to switch to a new tax system. My proposal would be:
First $50,000 of income is tax free. All the rest taxed at 20% (or whatever the number needs to be for equalizing the current total tax revenue).
Or, alternatively:
First $50,000 of income is tax free. Next $200,000 at 15%, remainder at 25%.
AND NO DEDUCTIONS FOR ANYTHING.
The country would save tens of billions of dollars on tax compliance and the system would be far more fair for everyone - which is why it will never be enacted.
This tech wouldn't work with an iPad... First you need a camera. Second you have to be far enough away from the device to fit within the camera's field of view.
However, Apple already has a patent that describes how you could detect a finger hovering just above the screen without needing to actually touch it, and without the need of a camera...
http://www.slashgear.com/apple-hover...tures-0425164/
Obviously it wouldn't work with the iPad as it is now, it would need to have been integrated from the start!
All the kinect tech does is project a matrix of infrared dots which are read by two IR cameras to calculate a 3d model of what's in front; there's no reason this couldn't have been adapted to work at a much shorter range. It's actually pretty similar to the tech in the linked patent, though that uses an array of IR sensors rather than just two IR cameras.
There are only two reasons why insiders sell stock:
1. They know the company is about to crater; or
2. A zillion other unrelated reasons.
Sometimes the two coincide.
I think this is just another clever decision.
What was the other one? When?
A much better response than mine.
I always forget the part about "when engaging in a battle of wits, it is always polite to make sure your opponent is armed."
It is easy to spot too. When all they do is quote a right-wing radio host, there is no point in putting the effort into a lengthy response. I liked your response, but the shorter and simpler one was probably more appropriate for the audience.
Finally a voice of reason! I was starting to think we live in communist China.
I?m with you guys. Money is Freedom. No money, no candy.
Money buys you airwaves, anchormen-women, news desks, a Congressman-woman or two or three, cheap foreign laborers here and abroad by the thousands, the best health care system money can buy, and the means to get away from it all when the cheap ungrateful pseudo victims, those grassroots small d democrats, try to cheat their ways into your subconscious comfort zone.
It feels so good to be top tier. Inherited? Good for me, my gene pool deserves it!
Won at the crap table ? Well, lucky I am, Quantum Mechanics works for me?!
Got a Hedge Fund blank check in a downturn ? Bless the Lord Space-Time is on my side!
Hard earned out of squeezing the fringe out of the neighbor?s benefits? How clever of me?, striking gold while mining sweat.
I tell you guys, a prosperous Amerika for me is two third sweat shop, one third moral rot. Apple does it in China while it could sweat it out in California, what a shame for the "gotcha" third in us?!
Balmer has been working his butt off for Microsoft since before IBM invented the PC and before Microsoft introduced DOS and Windows. He deserves every penny he has earned. If you want to live in a society where the government dictates everything, move to a communist country, please.
I don't disagree one whit with your point that Ballmer deserves every penny he has earned. Indeed, he can do with it as he pleases.
But why do some folks -- like you -- have to turn around make it about whether the person with whom they disagree should stay or leave their home country?
Such intolerant arrogance never ceases to surprise me.
Warren Buffet has made more people rich then you or I while we sit on our lazy asses, is what he has achieved!
'make money from other people's achievements'... Man, where did you get your edukashun?! (</sarcasm>). I've never seen Buffet TAKE people's money as does Obama and the Federal Government! Buffet is willing to spread the wealth around if you are FREELY willing to take a risk with your investment. Obama wants to TAKE your money from your hard earned success and spread it around PERIOD! Show me where Buffet favored taking over a private company to save the Union's lazy ass pension fund, while demanding the firing of the CEO and screwing the bond holder investors? I can show you where Obama did it... GM!
For the love of Pete, WAKE-UP!
'(the working class who have higher tax rates)'... Sigh, it's like talking to a brick wall people...
"Critics of Bush's three tax relief plans charge that only the wealthy benefited from the reductions in marginal tax rates. But is this true? And more broadly, do the wealthiest Americans pay their "fair share" of the tax burden?
The evidence shows that all Americans, rich and poor, benefited from President Bush's tax cuts. The rich saw taxes on their dividends and capital gains reduced (as well as their income taxes), and personal income tax rates were slashed across the board, which encompassed every middle-class taxpayer. Even the poor, who generally do not pay income taxes, were rewarded with a higher Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC) and child tax credits.
Progressivity and the Tax Burden
Our tax system, however, is highly progressive, meaning that as one's income rises, a higher proportion of that income is taxed. Thus, those in the highest tax brackets contribute more to the overall tax burden even though there are far more people in lower tax brackets.1
According to data from the IRS, the bottom 50 percent of income earners pay approximately 4 percent of income taxes.
The top 25 percent of income earners pay nearly 83 percent of the income tax burden, and the top 10 percent pay 65 percent.
The top 1 percent of income earners pay almost 35 percent of all income taxes.
The top 400 richest Americans paid 1.58 of total income taxes in 2000.
http://taxesandgrowth.ncpa.org/news/...eir-fair-share
Well I fall squarely into that top 1% and I think the 18% Capital gains tax is absurd and unjustifiable. I have no guilt, I play plenty of taxes at that 18% rate and can guarantee you my life would not be any different if it were taxed as regular income. My investment strategy would change little if any.
I find that most of the people who make right wing ideologue arguments have no real experience with what they are talking about. 99% of individual investors have their money in a tax sheltered plan of some kind and the capital gains tax does in fact only help people in the top income brackets.
The country is under an unsustainable debt load. Neither party in the US is willing to reduce spending at all. Money has to come from somewhere and you can't squeeze blood from a stone. It really is that simple. Balmer, me, SJ, more than likely you have all benefited more from being here than the single mother pulling two shifts at the 7-11. Did I work hard? Yes. Does she work hard? Yes. Can she make her mortgage payment if you raise her taxes 1%? No. Can I still get my new boat next year if capital gains are taxed as regular income? Yes.
Is it fair? Grow up.
One additional point.. I think out entire tax system is BS and we should start over. Dick Army had the right idea, it is too bad no one listened. I think a real flat tax where everything dollar over say $25,000 is taxed at 25% (numbers are examples only) is more fair to everyone. It is more fair to the poor, it is more efficient for the government and the only people it really hurts are tax accountants. (I know homebuilders think everyone will move into apartments without the interest tax credit, but they are shortsighted morons). It is more fair to the rich.
Let me guess... You are a graduate of the Keith Olbermann School of Polite Discourse? Tell me... Did you graduate with a Latin Honor of Cum Laud... Er... MSNBC Honor of Worse, Worser, Worst Person in the World degree, when it came to hearing and tolerating an opposing view?
If I said "UC Berkeley", would that ease or increase the pain of your hatred for all people that oppose your point of view?
If I said "followed by 6 years as a Marine Corps officer with two combat tours of Vietnam" would that help you decide whether I am fit to have a discussion with you where we agree to disagree?
If I said "I'm liberal in my views, but conservative with your money" would you accept and agree with my investment advice?
My response to the OP that started most of this was somewhat harsh, I agree. Mostly it was sarcastic criticism of "the earth is flat" thinking.
But how do you respond to someone that shouts with multiple !!! on nearly everything they type, throw big words around that they clearly have no idea as to the meaning of, call out people as lazy asses, communists, or bums, and in general just make a nuisance of themselves?
Oh, right. I forgot. You throw money in a coffer and have them run for office under the Tea Party moniker. 'cause, you know, "we're all mad as hell and we're not going to take it anymore!"
[sigh]
Balmer has been working his butt off for Microsoft since before IBM invented the PC and before Microsoft introduced DOS and Windows. He deserves every penny he has earned. If you want to live in a society where the government dictates everything, move to a communist country, please.
You forgot to add <sarcasm> tags...
Well I fall squarely into that top 1% and I think the 18% Capital gains tax is absurd and unjustifiable. I have no guilt, I play plenty of taxes at that 18% rate and can guarantee you my life would not be any different if it were taxed as regular income. My investment strategy would change little if any.
I find that most of the people who make right wing ideologue arguments have no real experience with what they are talking about. 99% of individual investors have their money in a tax sheltered plan of some kind and the capital gains tax does in fact only help people in the top income brackets.
The country is under an unsustainable debt load. Neither party in the US is willing to reduce spending at all. Money has to come from somewhere and you can't squeeze blood from a stone. It really is that simple. Balmer, me, SJ, more than likely you have all benefited more from being here than the single mother pulling two shifts at the 7-11. Did I work hard? Yes. Does she work hard? Yes. Can she make her mortgage payment if you raise her taxes 1%? No. Can I still get my new boat next year if capital gains are taxed as regular income? Yes.
Is it fair? Grow up.
One additional point.. I think out entire tax system is BS and we should start over. Dick Army had the right idea, it is too bad no one listened. I think a real flat tax where everything dollar over say $25,000 is taxed at 25% (numbers are examples only) is more fair to everyone. It is more fair to the poor, it is more efficient for the government and the only people it really hurts are tax accountants. (I know homebuilders think everyone will move into apartments without the interest tax credit, but they are shortsighted morons). It is more fair to the rich.
A well thought out and responsible post.
I think I am going to like having you around.
The country is under an unsustainable debt load. Neither party in the US is willing to reduce spending at all. Money has to come from somewhere and you can't squeeze blood from a stone. It really is that simple. Balmer, me, SJ, more than likely you have all benefited more from being here than the single mother pulling two shifts at the 7-11. Did I work hard? Yes. Does she work hard? Yes. Can she make her mortgage payment if you raise her taxes 1%? No. Can I still get my new boat next year if capital gains are taxed as regular income? Yes.
Is it fair? Grow up.
Very well-said. And, very true.
I don't disagree one whit with your point that Ballmer deserves every penny he has earned. Indeed, he can do with it as he pleases.
But why do some folks -- like you -- have to turn around make it about whether the person with whom they disagree should stay or leave their home country?
Such intolerant arrogance never ceases to surprise me.
Capitalism is the foundation of the USA. The people complaining here about it want a communist society instead of a capitalistic one.
Well I fall squarely into that top 1% and I think the 18% Capital gains tax is absurd and unjustifiable. I have no guilt, I play plenty of taxes at that 18% rate and can guarantee you my life would not be any different if it were taxed as regular income. My investment strategy would change little if any.
I find that most of the people who make right wing ideologue arguments have no real experience with what they are talking about. 99% of individual investors have their money in a tax sheltered plan of some kind and the capital gains tax does in fact only help people in the top income brackets.
The country is under an unsustainable debt load. Neither party in the US is willing to reduce spending at all. Money has to come from somewhere and you can't squeeze blood from a stone. It really is that simple. Balmer, me, SJ, more than likely you have all benefited more from being here than the single mother pulling two shifts at the 7-11. Did I work hard? Yes. Does she work hard? Yes. Can she make her mortgage payment if you raise her taxes 1%? No. Can I still get my new boat next year if capital gains are taxed as regular income? Yes.
Is it fair? Grow up.
One additional point.. I think out entire tax system is BS and we should start over. Dick Army had the right idea, it is too bad no one listened. I think a real flat tax where everything dollar over say $25,000 is taxed at 25% (numbers are examples only) is more fair to everyone. It is more fair to the poor, it is more efficient for the government and the only people it really hurts are tax accountants. (I know homebuilders think everyone will move into apartments without the interest tax credit, but they are shortsighted morons). It is more fair to the rich.
While I fully agree with your last paragraph, I'll take issue with your first couple.
First, just because you would not change your investing strategy in the face of a doubling of capital gains rates does not mean that others wouldn't and shouldn't. Investing strategy should always take tax rates into consideration. Few people in the top 1% have such little saved that it can all be tax deferred. The majority have significant assets in taxable instruments. This is particularly true of entrepreneurs with substantial company stock. The rest of us can at least take advantage of tax-managed mutual funds.
Second, trying to pay for runaway spending by taxing the wealthy is a losing strategy. Unfortunately, the wealthy simply don't have enough money to fund government spending at its current run rate. Further, the wealthy represent an extremely small, and therefore volatile, tax base. In times of recession the wealthy are disproportionately impacted and when they represent the majority of tax revenue, tax revenue is similarly impacted. The only stable revenue stream is a broad-based revenue stream.
Well I fall squarely into that top 1% and I think the 18% Capital gains tax is absurd and unjustifiable. I have no guilt, I play plenty of taxes at that 18% rate and can guarantee you my life would not be any different if it were taxed as regular income. My investment strategy would change little if any.
I think that unearned income should be taxed just like earned income. If not the same, then higher.
I also think that we need to index capital gains against inflation, to avoid distorting the reality of the underlying ownership decisions.
The guy sweating for $40 grand a year should pay taxes, and so should the old guy earning $40 grand from his investments.
Index long term capital gains for inflation, so no tax is paid on the portion of gain that results from differences in currency values. That is only fair.
But don't give preferential tax treatment to equity positions over fixed income positions, and especially don't give equity positions preferential treatment over wages, because wages are income earned from productive activity. We need more productive activity.
The people complaining here about it want a communist society instead of a capitalistic one.
Some of them? Probably not.
All of them? Most certainly not.
Ha ha, I'm getting a kick out of watching all the closet communists come out to play.
I must beg to ask, how to you think the individuals "who control the purse stings" came to be in that position? I can guarantee it wasn't by sitting on their lazy ass cashing in welfare cheques.
Apple is the product of Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak (two nobodies) tinkering with toys in a garage. Google. Facebook etc were all stared from an idea that an average Joe had, and knew what do to do with.
There may be an uneven distribution of wealth under capitalism, but everyone has a fair chance to get to the top.
How do people go from nothing to controlling "purse strings" of their industry? Through achievement.
You guys are just showing your extreme ignorance of any kind of political history or polisci knowledge. But hey, what does the average American know about politics or history anyway?
Every European country, and most Asian/African countries (in other words most of the rest of the world), has had socialist periods, communist periods, and capitalist periods in their history and are well aware of the differences between all three. The USA has only ever been capitalist and it has routinely for it's entire existence ridiculed, demonised, criticised, and sometimes even destroyed other nations who don't ascribe to their politics or to capitalism in general. You guys just don't have the history or the knowledge to know what you're talking about.
The average American citizen doesn't even have the correct definition of "socialism" or social democracy," and has no direct experience with it. It's just a buzz word used as a pejorative in almost the same way that you would call a rude poster on the forum a name like *ssh*le or whatever.
Capitalism is not a meritocracy. If it was, money and IP would not be inheritable for starters. People can get in control of the "purse strings" without necessarily doing anything but being born into the right family, and if you go look up the facts of the matter, you will find that this is true for the vast majority of those currently sitting on top of the capitalist heap.
The basic unfairness of capitalism as a system for distribution of wealth and happiness has been documented over and over in everything from history books to fairy tales since it's very inception. The generalised blindness of Americans, and the fact that you may not have had access to a good political history class in college notwithstanding.