I use linux mainly on a super fast custom pc which also runs windows 7. I also have a macbook pro old version but I just got bored of the inflexibility of it. The whole apple eco-system really does not appeal to me.
In what way was your Macbook Pro inflexible? Its components are the same as WinTel PCs, and it can run Linux, Windows, etc. (Simultaneously even.)
Although I don't share it, I can understand your distaste for the whole Apple ecosystem, but the Macbook Pro can stand on its own and so is not a particular example.
Yes, but, of course, iPad is not on that list, so your list really has nothing to do with this issue.
Wow, really?!?! You really don't get that the list was of areas were Apple later changed design decisions they had made? That the list was examples of where Apple has made mistakes and/or misteps and later changed course? Suggesting that maybe, just maybe, 9.7" isn't the optimal size. That maybe Apple didn't give enough weight (no pun intended) to the size/weight issues vs having a larger screen.
Apple is not infallible. The list is examples of where they've made mistakes. Often times, those mistakes were pointed out by us, the users, long before Apple made changes. Sometimes, like in terms of the buttonless shuffle, it was pointed out the very day the product was announced. And yet Apple didn't realize it until later.
Only time will tell.... in the meantime, perhaps lay off the kool-aid.
Wow, really?!?! You really don't get that the list was of areas were Apple later changed design decisions they had made? That the list was examples of where Apple has made mistakes and/or misteps and later changed course? Suggesting that maybe, just maybe, 9.7" isn't the optimal size. That maybe Apple didn't give enough weight (no pun intended) to the size/weight issues vs having a larger screen. ...
Yes, I know what you were saying, but their sales numbers would seem to undercut your argument from that angle pretty thoroughly. So thoroughly, that I'd think you'd be feeling a little embarrassed having tried that particular angle of attack.
In what way was your Macbook Pro inflexible? Its components are the same as WinTel PCs, and it can run Linux, Windows, etc. (Simultaneously even.)
Although I don't share it, I can understand your distaste for the whole Apple ecosystem, but the Macbook Pro can stand on its own and so is not a particular example.
Thompson
My macbook pro died when I tried to use boot camp. I had to get a new logic board, luckily this was covered under warranty. The interface hardware is not standard, which means that running linux is not as pleasant as it is on my custom desktop pc. The hardware apple chooses is sub standard to what you can get in a custom pc, unless you go all out and get a mac pro. This means if I load windows on mac then gaming is no where near as good as on a windows designed high spec system for a similar price. I accept most of this is down to apple wanting the best user experience by narrowing hardware choices and all credit to them but it doesn't suit my wants/needs
Ahh... That's very interesting -- the garbage collection priority. Got any links on that?
Also, Java is byteCode interpreted at runtime, No? So that's additional overhead.
.
To be fair about that, there are design patterns that can pretty much eliminate garbage collection issues. Doing things naively that creates tone of throwaway object doesn't do well performance-wise in any language. Manually releasing and release pools still do about the same amount of work in the end.
Yes, Java is normally running as bytecode, but the newer JIT bytecode compilers do a nice job of caching machine code and are getting pretty good at dynamically bound optimizations that are impossible in statically compiled programs. They aren't as quite fast as properly hand optimized assembler, or C, but the lower development effort makes things possible to do you just wouldn't want to do in vanilla C. It can be more or less as fast as object-orietnted C++ code as the JIT caching is finally better than the C++ VM table at runtime.
The common C++ is always faster than Java is really only founded anymore on C++ as a easier C, where inheritance of virtual methods is methodically avoided. If you are doing that you are giving up so much of the languages design potential you should just use C structs and function pointers, but most vocal C++ programmers just stare blankly during that conversation.
If you know how to use a keyboard properly and you do a lot of google searches or commenting on articles then a keyboard is always faster than the iPad offering.
Nope. Really the only difference in short input typing is you need to look at the iPad onscreen keyboard.
Nope. Really the only difference in short input typing is you need to look at the iPad onscreen keyboard.
Apart from the fact that it is awkward to hold on your lap or table. A case with a stand improves this slightly but still. Also typing on a screen means your hands are covering the content you are trying to view, something that will never be resolved.
A laptop and certainly a desktop will always be a faster and more pleasurable experience for me.
As more and more tablets come to the market, Apple?s success in that space could decline. After all, customers now have more options than they once did. And those options are now highlighted by the Samsung Galaxy Tab. The Samsung model is a 7-inch tablet that some observers say, could be even better than the iPad for us
The reason that Java has been slow on phone devices is that no manufacturer has bothered to put a decent JVM into their devices - and from a business perspective under the carrier dominant model, that actually made sense. Google on the other hand does have a reason to build a better JVM, and is doing so (slowly - possibly in part due to patent issues).
Apart from the fact that it is awkward to hold on your lap or table. A case with a stand improves this slightly but still. Also typing on a screen means your hands are covering the content you are trying to view, something that will never be resolved.
The Apple case for the iPad improves the experience a lot. The keyboard is presented at a comfortable incline, which is better than what you get on a laptop, IMO. (Just comparing the angle of the surface, not the typing aspect.) Also, the screen is large enough so that even if you take away the part that the keyboard occupies, the remaining part may be larger than a netbook screen, and the content you are trying to view is scrolled into that area. On an Apples to Apples comparison with netbooks, it seems to me that one must weigh the touch typing requirement against the larger screen size of the iPad. Since I don't type that much (but I typed THIS on an iPad with no problem) the iPad wins for me. If one also values the richness of the eco-system (which you do not, but I do) the proposition becomes a slam dunk in favor of the iPad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjw
A laptop and certainly a desktop will always be a faster and more pleasurable experience for me.
I agree that laptops, or especially desktops, would be better for your stated purposes (i.e. you do quite a bit of typing, apparently). But I thought the issue here is how the experience compares to a netbook. (Actually, the original article compares the iPad to the Galaxy Tab, which also is sans keyboard and super duper small, but I digress...) Netbooks and tablets occupy a space that is characterized by devices that are lower price, highly mobile, not easily expandable, longer battery life, and perhaps a bit underpowered relative to the traditional PC, etc. So comparing an iPad to something outside of that category is somewhat off point.
From what little I can tell of your use cases (potential development, referencing cloud compilers, etc) and preferences (touch typing and seeing your content) it seems like the netbook should edge out the tablet (because of the lack of physical keyboard) but that you might have disdain for the netbook as well because of the lack of screen real estate. At the end of the day, it really sounds like you wouldn't be too well served by that Chrome netbook either, but you may have some other unspoken requirements that drive the need.
For myself, grabbing something new, such as a netbook running Chrome, would be a neat experience because of the feeling of "discovery". But that feeling usually fades within a few weeks, leaving you with whatever the device actually offers. My hunch is that that wouldn't be much on the Chrome netbook, and that when I actually wanted a physical keyboard, I'd either go to my desktop, laptop, or simply use my wireless keyboard with the iPad.
Apple's eco system is primarily driven by proprietary formats to lock you into the eco system. It is fantastic for people that are technophobes but gets a little restrictive to the rest of us.
I use linux mainly on a super fast custom pc which also runs windows 7. I also have a macbook pro old version but I just got bored of the inflexibility of it. The whole apple eco-system really does not appeal to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjw
My macbook pro died when I tried to use boot camp. I had to get a new logic board, luckily this was covered under warranty. The interface hardware is not standard, which means that running linux is not as pleasant as it is on my custom desktop pc. The hardware apple chooses is sub standard to what you can get in a custom pc, unless you go all out and get a mac pro. This means if I load windows on mac then gaming is no where near as good as on a windows designed high spec system for a similar price. I accept most of this is down to apple wanting the best user experience by narrowing hardware choices and all credit to them but it doesn't suit my wants/needs
Your concerns read like a compendium of internet memes written by someone who has never actually used the hardware.
What proprietary formats, specifically? What "non-standard interface hardware", specifically? And how does that impact your Linux experience, specifically? What hardware is substandard?
Also, is it your contention that trying to run Bootcamp killed your motherboard, somehow? Because I've never heard of that.
Your concerns read like a compendium of internet memes written by someone who has never actually used the hardware.
What proprietary formats, specifically? What "non-standard interface hardware", specifically? And how does that impact your Linux experience, specifically? What hardware is substandard?
Also, is it your contention that trying to run Bootcamp killed your motherboard, somehow? Because I've never heard of that.
Boot camp on mac is not as straightforward for linux as installing it on a pc.
The hardware built into mac machines, ie the CPU, GPU, memory is sub standard compared with custom PCs that can be built for the same price. You cannot argue with that.
Mac keyboards are just an annoyance to set up with linux, I can't use my magic mouse with linux. Two proprietary interface devices that I prefer not to use with linux.
The hardware built into mac machines, ie the CPU, GPU, memory is sub standard compared with custom PCs that can be built for the same price. You cannot argue with that.
As for buying extra memory or drive capacity. What you say is true for EVERY vendor. One of the things you pay for when you spec up a machine for delivery is the convenience. Always has been and always will be that way. So comparing any produced box, Apple or otherwise, is a ridiculous exercise. Either you want to build it yourself, then none of the manufacturer prices matter. Or you don't and home brew component prices don't matter.
Really? Sub-standard memory? You think the OS knows anything about CAS latencies or ECC ratings? Maybe your problem is the Linux communities difficulties with accepting EFI for the comfort of BIOS rather than the components themselves. So I won't argue, I'll just laugh and walk away. [yes I know Linux can boot on EFI, I also know if the community lost it's fear of it, the EFI boot might not be more than a glorified hack]
As for buying extra memory or drive capacity. What you say is true for EVERY vendor. One of the things you pay for when you spec up a machine for delivery is the convenience. Always has been and always will be that way. So comparing any produced box, Apple or otherwise, is a ridiculous exercise. Either you want to build it yourself, then none of the manufacturer prices matter. Or you don't and home brew component prices don't matter.
Really? Sub-standard memory? You think the OS knows anything about CAS latencies or ECC ratings? Maybe your problem is the Linux communities difficulties with accepting EFI for the comfort of BIOS rather than the components themselves. So I won't argue, I'll just laugh and walk away. [yes I know Linux can boot on EFI, I also know if the community lost it's fear of it, the EFI boot might not be more than a glorified hack]
People like tjw think they are common PC consumer while feeling elitist for using Linux, and they think they are the voice of reason in CE yet they ignore things like reliability, power consumption and compatibility. All they focus on is one aspect of the HW specs; the part they can brag to their Linux brethren about their souped up system that blows any vendor-made system away at a faction of the cost.
People like tjw think they are common PC consumer while feeling elitist for using Linux, and they think they are the voice of reason in CE yet they ignore things like reliability, power consumption and compatibility. All they focus on is one aspect of the HW specs; the part they can brag to their Linux brethren about their souped up system that blows any vendor-made system away at a faction of the cost.
Naw, he just sounds a lot like Newtron and his sock-puppet factory aliases. I'm not positive, but the pattern is starting to solidify.
Comments
I use linux mainly on a super fast custom pc which also runs windows 7. I also have a macbook pro old version but I just got bored of the inflexibility of it. The whole apple eco-system really does not appeal to me.
In what way was your Macbook Pro inflexible? Its components are the same as WinTel PCs, and it can run Linux, Windows, etc. (Simultaneously even.)
Although I don't share it, I can understand your distaste for the whole Apple ecosystem, but the Macbook Pro can stand on its own and so is not a particular example.
Thompson
Yes, but, of course, iPad is not on that list, so your list really has nothing to do with this issue.
Wow, really?!?! You really don't get that the list was of areas were Apple later changed design decisions they had made? That the list was examples of where Apple has made mistakes and/or misteps and later changed course? Suggesting that maybe, just maybe, 9.7" isn't the optimal size. That maybe Apple didn't give enough weight (no pun intended) to the size/weight issues vs having a larger screen.
Apple is not infallible. The list is examples of where they've made mistakes. Often times, those mistakes were pointed out by us, the users, long before Apple made changes. Sometimes, like in terms of the buttonless shuffle, it was pointed out the very day the product was announced. And yet Apple didn't realize it until later.
Only time will tell.... in the meantime, perhaps lay off the kool-aid.
Wow, really?!?! You really don't get that the list was of areas were Apple later changed design decisions they had made? That the list was examples of where Apple has made mistakes and/or misteps and later changed course? Suggesting that maybe, just maybe, 9.7" isn't the optimal size. That maybe Apple didn't give enough weight (no pun intended) to the size/weight issues vs having a larger screen. ...
Yes, I know what you were saying, but their sales numbers would seem to undercut your argument from that angle pretty thoroughly. So thoroughly, that I'd think you'd be feeling a little embarrassed having tried that particular angle of attack.
In what way was your Macbook Pro inflexible? Its components are the same as WinTel PCs, and it can run Linux, Windows, etc. (Simultaneously even.)
Although I don't share it, I can understand your distaste for the whole Apple ecosystem, but the Macbook Pro can stand on its own and so is not a particular example.
Thompson
My macbook pro died when I tried to use boot camp. I had to get a new logic board, luckily this was covered under warranty. The interface hardware is not standard, which means that running linux is not as pleasant as it is on my custom desktop pc. The hardware apple chooses is sub standard to what you can get in a custom pc, unless you go all out and get a mac pro. This means if I load windows on mac then gaming is no where near as good as on a windows designed high spec system for a similar price. I accept most of this is down to apple wanting the best user experience by narrowing hardware choices and all credit to them but it doesn't suit my wants/needs
No OS X-powered netbook? I beg to differ... No, it's not $399, but what do you expect from Apple? Junk?
Beautiful photo.
True. I think Android (& Google products and services in general) appeals to the same sort of personality as Microsoft did in the '90s.
Pretty much everybody then?
Ahh... That's very interesting -- the garbage collection priority. Got any links on that?
Also, Java is byteCode interpreted at runtime, No? So that's additional overhead.
.
To be fair about that, there are design patterns that can pretty much eliminate garbage collection issues. Doing things naively that creates tone of throwaway object doesn't do well performance-wise in any language. Manually releasing and release pools still do about the same amount of work in the end.
Yes, Java is normally running as bytecode, but the newer JIT bytecode compilers do a nice job of caching machine code and are getting pretty good at dynamically bound optimizations that are impossible in statically compiled programs. They aren't as quite fast as properly hand optimized assembler, or C, but the lower development effort makes things possible to do you just wouldn't want to do in vanilla C. It can be more or less as fast as object-orietnted C++ code as the JIT caching is finally better than the C++ VM table at runtime.
The common C++ is always faster than Java is really only founded anymore on C++ as a easier C, where inheritance of virtual methods is methodically avoided. If you are doing that you are giving up so much of the languages design potential you should just use C structs and function pointers, but most vocal C++ programmers just stare blankly during that conversation.
If you know how to use a keyboard properly and you do a lot of google searches or commenting on articles then a keyboard is always faster than the iPad offering.
Nope. Really the only difference in short input typing is you need to look at the iPad onscreen keyboard.
There is nothing worth to be proud of till SAMSAMG can make its os .
http://bada.samsung.com/whatisbada/
Nope. Really the only difference in short input typing is you need to look at the iPad onscreen keyboard.
Apart from the fact that it is awkward to hold on your lap or table. A case with a stand improves this slightly but still. Also typing on a screen means your hands are covering the content you are trying to view, something that will never be resolved.
A laptop and certainly a desktop will always be a faster and more pleasurable experience for me.
As more and more tablets come to the market, Apple?s success in that space could decline. After all, customers now have more options than they once did. And those options are now highlighted by the Samsung Galaxy Tab. The Samsung model is a 7-inch tablet that some observers say, could be even better than the iPad for us
Good grief! Don't spambots have any taste?
Don Reisinger !!!
http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Mobile-and-...-Why-454764/1/
The reason that Java has been slow on phone devices is that no manufacturer has bothered to put a decent JVM into their devices - and from a business perspective under the carrier dominant model, that actually made sense. Google on the other hand does have a reason to build a better JVM, and is doing so (slowly - possibly in part due to patent issues).
I was going to say the same thing
Apart from the fact that it is awkward to hold on your lap or table. A case with a stand improves this slightly but still. Also typing on a screen means your hands are covering the content you are trying to view, something that will never be resolved.
The Apple case for the iPad improves the experience a lot. The keyboard is presented at a comfortable incline, which is better than what you get on a laptop, IMO. (Just comparing the angle of the surface, not the typing aspect.) Also, the screen is large enough so that even if you take away the part that the keyboard occupies, the remaining part may be larger than a netbook screen, and the content you are trying to view is scrolled into that area. On an Apples to Apples comparison with netbooks, it seems to me that one must weigh the touch typing requirement against the larger screen size of the iPad. Since I don't type that much (but I typed THIS on an iPad with no problem) the iPad wins for me. If one also values the richness of the eco-system (which you do not, but I do) the proposition becomes a slam dunk in favor of the iPad.
A laptop and certainly a desktop will always be a faster and more pleasurable experience for me.
I agree that laptops, or especially desktops, would be better for your stated purposes (i.e. you do quite a bit of typing, apparently). But I thought the issue here is how the experience compares to a netbook. (Actually, the original article compares the iPad to the Galaxy Tab, which also is sans keyboard and super duper small, but I digress...) Netbooks and tablets occupy a space that is characterized by devices that are lower price, highly mobile, not easily expandable, longer battery life, and perhaps a bit underpowered relative to the traditional PC, etc. So comparing an iPad to something outside of that category is somewhat off point.
From what little I can tell of your use cases (potential development, referencing cloud compilers, etc) and preferences (touch typing and seeing your content) it seems like the netbook should edge out the tablet (because of the lack of physical keyboard) but that you might have disdain for the netbook as well because of the lack of screen real estate. At the end of the day, it really sounds like you wouldn't be too well served by that Chrome netbook either, but you may have some other unspoken requirements that drive the need.
For myself, grabbing something new, such as a netbook running Chrome, would be a neat experience because of the feeling of "discovery". But that feeling usually fades within a few weeks, leaving you with whatever the device actually offers. My hunch is that that wouldn't be much on the Chrome netbook, and that when I actually wanted a physical keyboard, I'd either go to my desktop, laptop, or simply use my wireless keyboard with the iPad.
Thompson
Apple's eco system is primarily driven by proprietary formats to lock you into the eco system. It is fantastic for people that are technophobes but gets a little restrictive to the rest of us.
I use linux mainly on a super fast custom pc which also runs windows 7. I also have a macbook pro old version but I just got bored of the inflexibility of it. The whole apple eco-system really does not appeal to me.
My macbook pro died when I tried to use boot camp. I had to get a new logic board, luckily this was covered under warranty. The interface hardware is not standard, which means that running linux is not as pleasant as it is on my custom desktop pc. The hardware apple chooses is sub standard to what you can get in a custom pc, unless you go all out and get a mac pro. This means if I load windows on mac then gaming is no where near as good as on a windows designed high spec system for a similar price. I accept most of this is down to apple wanting the best user experience by narrowing hardware choices and all credit to them but it doesn't suit my wants/needs
Your concerns read like a compendium of internet memes written by someone who has never actually used the hardware.
What proprietary formats, specifically? What "non-standard interface hardware", specifically? And how does that impact your Linux experience, specifically? What hardware is substandard?
Also, is it your contention that trying to run Bootcamp killed your motherboard, somehow? Because I've never heard of that.
Your concerns read like a compendium of internet memes written by someone who has never actually used the hardware.
What proprietary formats, specifically? What "non-standard interface hardware", specifically? And how does that impact your Linux experience, specifically? What hardware is substandard?
Also, is it your contention that trying to run Bootcamp killed your motherboard, somehow? Because I've never heard of that.
Boot camp on mac is not as straightforward for linux as installing it on a pc.
My boot camp experience and many others by the sounds of it with windows 7: http://www.google.co.uk/search?aq=f&...ursor+bootcamp
The hardware built into mac machines, ie the CPU, GPU, memory is sub standard compared with custom PCs that can be built for the same price. You cannot argue with that.
Mac keyboards are just an annoyance to set up with linux, I can't use my magic mouse with linux. Two proprietary interface devices that I prefer not to use with linux.
The hardware built into mac machines, ie the CPU, GPU, memory is sub standard compared with custom PCs that can be built for the same price. You cannot argue with that.
As for buying extra memory or drive capacity. What you say is true for EVERY vendor. One of the things you pay for when you spec up a machine for delivery is the convenience. Always has been and always will be that way. So comparing any produced box, Apple or otherwise, is a ridiculous exercise. Either you want to build it yourself, then none of the manufacturer prices matter. Or you don't and home brew component prices don't matter.
Really?
As for buying extra memory or drive capacity. What you say is true for EVERY vendor. One of the things you pay for when you spec up a machine for delivery is the convenience. Always has been and always will be that way. So comparing any produced box, Apple or otherwise, is a ridiculous exercise. Either you want to build it yourself, then none of the manufacturer prices matter. Or you don't and home brew component prices don't matter.
Really?
People like tjw think they are common PC consumer while feeling elitist for using Linux, and they think they are the voice of reason in CE yet they ignore things like reliability, power consumption and compatibility. All they focus on is one aspect of the HW specs; the part they can brag to their Linux brethren about their souped up system that blows any vendor-made system away at a faction of the cost.
People like tjw think they are common PC consumer while feeling elitist for using Linux, and they think they are the voice of reason in CE yet they ignore things like reliability, power consumption and compatibility. All they focus on is one aspect of the HW specs; the part they can brag to their Linux brethren about their souped up system that blows any vendor-made system away at a faction of the cost.
Naw, he just sounds a lot like Newtron and his sock-puppet factory aliases. I'm not positive, but the pattern is starting to solidify.