European carriers threaten Apple over embedded SIM option

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  • Reply 21 of 119
    So what's the difference between this and the unlocked versions you can currently get in Canada and the UK? Besides, those subsidies aren't nearly enough to offset the amount you'd have to spend to a carrier over a 2 year contract.
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  • Reply 22 of 119
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    I don’t get what they are concerned about. Just like with the current SIM card system Apple can lock the handset to a carrier or sell it unlocked.



    They make contracts with carriers when they could have sold the device unlocked in most, if not all, nations. All this idea seems to do is save Apple some space. They can use the OS UI to setup the device whether it’s locked to a carrier or not.



    I can’t imagine many will want to pay the full price for the handset with a built-in SIM. It’s not like switching the SIM is an ordeal.



    And what is with a French carrier being concerned? Wasn’t there an issue that required the device to be sold and used on all carriers?
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  • Reply 23 of 119
    a universal iPhone would be awesome. it would streamline costs and decrease overhead, particularly for the carriers who maintain retail stores whose sole purpose (just about) is to deal with sim cards.



    but europeans are completely insane so who knows..
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  • Reply 24 of 119
    wigginwiggin Posts: 2,265member
    I think some folks here are being anti-carrier just for the sake of being anti carrier. I'm thinking about it from a customer's standpoint. If it requires special software or something to update an integrated SIM, that means I need to give my phone to the carrier to update? Or is Apple trying to also require that it's an over-the-air update under Apple's control? But what if I don't have service in the country I just arrived in? How do I get a connection to update my iPhone to get a connection? Catch-22. What if I travel to an area that Apple doesn't have a contract with to update my iPhone to work on a local carrier? Then you are simply screwed as there would be no way to make your phone work there.



    I'm surprised people are so willing to give up the freedom to be able to pick up a SIM card wherever you are and pop it in. Wouldn't it be better for Apple to leave the SIM card slot and just sell unlocked phones? I'm going to be a pessimist here and view this as an attempt by Apple to force carriers to sign contracts with them, even if the carrier doesn't carry the iPhone. Today, an iPhone user can choose to use any carrier if they have an unlocked iPhone. With an integrated SIM, you are limited to only "Apple-approved" carriers. And if Apple doesn't happen to have an arrangement with the carrier you want to use, tough luck for you.
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  • Reply 25 of 119
    docno42docno42 Posts: 3,764member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hill60 View Post


    So where are all the usual European suspects who come in and post how they can change SIM cards whenever they want and pay 2? for billions of GB of data for tethering to their laptops at phenomenal speeds everywhere they go and unlimited calls because Europe is oh, so much better than America and networks there allow freedom to do what you want backed up by the EU.



    LOL - I was waiting for someone to point this out. Thanks for pointing out the irony
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  • Reply 26 of 119
    docno42docno42 Posts: 3,764member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Wiggin View Post


    I think some folks here are being anti-carrier just for the sake of being anti carrier. I'm thinking about it from a customer's standpoint. If it requires special software or something to update an integrated SIM, that means I need to give my phone to the carrier to update?



    I think you are being overly paranoid. If this restricted your choice to running to the carriers, why exactly are they up in arms?
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  • Reply 27 of 119
    Down here in sunny South Africa we have more cell contracts then people. Sim swapping is a regular occurrence and quite handy. Admittedly the point on micro-sim is a good one but surely we need the choice?
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  • Reply 28 of 119
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Wiggin View Post


    I think some folks here are being anti-carrier just for the sake of being anti carrier. I'm thinking about it from a customer's standpoint. If it requires special software or something to update an integrated SIM, that means I need to give my phone to the carrier to update? Or is Apple trying to also require that it's an over-the-air update under Apple's control? But what if I don't have service in the country I just arrived in? How do I get a connection to update my iPhone to get a connection? Catch-22. What if I travel to an area that Apple doesn't have a contract with to update my iPhone to work on a local carrier? Then you are simply screwed as there would be no way to make your phone work there.



    I'm surprised people are so willing to give up the freedom to be able to pick up a SIM card wherever you are and pop it in. Wouldn't it be better for Apple to leave the SIM card slot and just sell unlocked phones? I'm going to be a pessimist here and view this as an attempt by Apple to force carriers to sign contracts with them, even if the carrier doesn't carry the iPhone. Today, an iPhone user can choose to use any carrier if they have an unlocked iPhone. With an integrated SIM, you are limited to only "Apple-approved" carriers. And if Apple doesn't happen to have an arrangement with the carrier you want to use, tough luck for you.



    Let's break this down a bit since you want to blizzard issues here:



    - why would it require special software? why wouldn't a hardcoded registry code that could be read off the device or input and validated on first call work? So you don't have to give the carrier anything except the code from the phone and they validate when used.



    -Apple doesn't have to support anything like supplying updates like that - think logistics here instead of panicking because you can't conceive of a workable, intelligent, consumer-friendly system.



    -No contracts just you buying a phone that simply works where and when you need it no extra SIM tray to futz with, no trying to buy a SIM card off a local supplier.



    -just because you can't conceive of a system that doesn't require you running around buying little bits of trace-imprinted plastic to shove in your cellphone, doesn't mean there isn't a practical, sensible and consumer friendly way to do it. You are letting your paranoia blind you to the obvious. Will the carriers fight it - of course. They want as much control as consumers will allow them to be fooled into granting the carriers. But they are remarkably in the same boat as landline suppliers, media broadcasters/cable suppliers, and the recording industry - they are going to slowly and inexorably become commoditized - kicking and screaming all the way.
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  • Reply 29 of 119
    jb510jb510 Posts: 129member
    SIM cards made sense to me when they WERE the phones memory and you could move your SIM to a new phone and the contacts came with it.



    These days no one keeps their contact on their SIM card, so go ahead and get rid of it already.



    I don't see how an integrated sim affects customer loyalty or churn at all. The phone can still be software locked and subsidized, and you can STILL be required to sign a contract for service.



    It would dramatically affect pay as you go users. If pre-paid/PayG users could instantly switch carriers when they ran out of minutes without going by a store to swap SIMs that would certainly have a huge affect.



    Personally, I love the idea of getting off the plane in Bangkok and skipping the trip by the phone kiosk to buy a new SIM... tap tap tap and instantly I'm off AT&T and onto a new prepaid plan would make me very happy visiting other countries.



    I want a factory unlocked phone in the US, clean and simple... but I might settle for a reversal of the way locking works now, instead of locking to exclusively AT&T, just block all (Tmo) the other US carriers, but leave the phone open to international PayG carriers.
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  • Reply 30 of 119
    Their complaints don't make any sense to me. The phone could still be carrier locked the same way it is now. The only thing they are eliminating is the need to pull out one carriers SIM and put in another carriers SIM on an *unlocked* phone. The only thing this changes is the effort to insert that liquid metal SIM card extractor.
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  • Reply 31 of 119
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by esummers View Post


    Their complaints don't make any sense to me. The phone could still be carrier locked the same way it is now. The only thing they are eliminating is the need to pull out one carriers SIM and put in another carriers SIM on an *unlocked* phone. The only thing this changes is the effort to insert that liquid metal SIM card extractor.



    On top of that, there is still a way that carriers could add the key components of the Subscriber Identity Module to a ?card? that ships with the device or is obtained through the carrier without the need for manual entry, as I mentioned above as the most effort that would be required.



    For physical item they could use a simple card with a matrix barcode (QR code) and for a non-physical item in a carrier?s store they could use NFC (Near Field Communication). Both of which could be setup easily by accessing the phone?s settings.
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  • Reply 32 of 119
    jfanningjfanning Posts: 3,398member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hill60 View Post


    So where are all the usual European suspects who come in and post how they can change SIM cards whenever they want and pay 2? for billions of GB of data for tethering to their laptops at phenomenal speeds everywhere they go and unlimited calls because Europe is oh, so much better than America and networks there allow freedom to do what you want backed up by the EU.





    What happens when you go travelling to another country with your unlocked phone, you want to place a local SIM in it so you can save on roaming charges, how would your intergrated SIM help you?
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  • Reply 33 of 119
    joshajosha Posts: 901member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hill60 View Post


    Don't worry, Google will step in with Android to pick up the slack and put things back the way they were, for the carriers.



    Horrors if Google Android gets more common.

    Based on my problems getting service from Google for my Gmail account, I don't want to think of the problems getting Android service.



    Google gives lots of OK software away, but it's on a best efforts basis for service. Not surprising service is limited for a give away product.

    With Google software and services you are on a your risk basis. Take it or leave it Chum.
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  • Reply 34 of 119
    joshajosha Posts: 901member
    A built in SIM sounds very efficient and convenient, but I expect the main concern by the carriers is the power it gives Apple.

    Apple's iPhone strength is already concerning the carriers.
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  • Reply 35 of 119
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JoshA View Post


    A built in SIM sounds very efficient and convenient, but I expect the main concern by the carriers is the power it gives Apple.

    Apple's iPhone strength is already concerning the carriers.



    To me, their idea sounds like something they?d submit to ISO, IEC, ETSI, etc. Something they?d make free since adoption doesn?t look to harm their bottom line and could help it by giving them more freedom in their designs. Something akin to mini-DisplayPort.
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  • Reply 36 of 119
    wigginwiggin Posts: 2,265member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by LewysBlackmore View Post


    Let's break this down a bit since you want to blizzard issues here:



    - why would it require special software? why wouldn't a hardcoded registry code that could be read off the device or input and validated on first call work? So you don't have to give the carrier anything except the code from the phone and they validate when used.



    -Apple doesn't have to support anything like supplying updates like that - think logistics here instead of panicking because you can't conceive of a workable, intelligent, consumer-friendly system.



    -No contracts just you buying a phone that simply works where and when you need it no extra SIM tray to futz with, no trying to buy a SIM card off a local supplier.



    -just because you can't conceive of a system that doesn't require you running around buying little bits of trace-imprinted plastic to shove in your cellphone, doesn't mean there isn't a practical, sensible and consumer friendly way to do it. You are letting your paranoia blind you to the obvious. Will the carriers fight it - of course. They want as much control as consumers will allow them to be fooled into granting the carriers. But they are remarkably in the same boat as landline suppliers, media broadcasters/cable suppliers, and the recording industry - they are going to slowly and inexorably become commoditized - kicking and screaming all the way.



    Oh, I can conceive of a system such as you describe. But it involves one where the carrier use Apple's method of updating the SIM. Therefore, it limits you to only be able to use carriers that Apple has deemed "approved". Does it mean less control by the carriers? Sure, that's why they are upset. But while that's a good thing, it also means more control by Apple, not you. Think back to DRM'd music. How many people bitched because they couldn't play their music on non-Apple devices?



    Go back and read the original article about how the embedded SIM would work. It's still a SIM. It needs to be re-encoded/updated for each carrier you want to use. There's no "hardcoding" as you mentioned above. If that were the case, we'd be right back to the pre-SIM days. If you wanted to use the iPhone with a new carrier, you'd need a new "virtual SIM" added to the embedded SIM. Therefore, you need some sort of system you'd connect your phone to at the carrier's kiosk, or an over-the-air update via software, to add a new carrier to your phone. Either way, it's completely under Apple's control as to who they determine to have agreements with. If the carrier doesn't have an agreement with Apple, your phone won't get updated to work on their network because you certainly aren't going to hand-enter all the info necessary to make your phone work on the carrier's network.



    I love Apple products and use many of them. But in case you haven't noticed, Apple lately has been more and more about controlling how they will allow you to use their products and how they can monetize that control (they are a for-profit business, after all). There are good aspects to what Apple is doing, but let's not blindly follow along like sheep just because it's Apple.
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  • Reply 37 of 119
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by 2oh1 View Post


    Let them complain. There will always be a carrier wiling to pay the subsities to get the iPhone. When it comes time, they'll all remember the demand the iPhone 4 generated. And they'll want in. Let them complain.



    A lot has changed in the past 12 months.
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  • Reply 38 of 119
    richlrichl Posts: 2,213member
    Integrated SIMs will only hurt consumers. It's a backwards step into the murky world of CDMA.



    What happens when your contract is up? Will you be able to change carrier? Who controls that process? I can only see this hurting consumer choice and ultimately reducing competition.
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  • Reply 39 of 119
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DocNo42 View Post


    LOL - I was waiting for someone to point this out. Thanks for pointing out the irony





    I split my time between Ireland and Europe, and I change my sim often to get around the high roaming charges. The micro sim already made it difficult, but this would make it impossible. A lot of Europeans travel over the summer and swop out their sims, I dont think this would prove popular with them. I only use unlocked phones, I have to. I think it's one of the reasons Nokia is often chosen.



    It would allow the carriers to charge whatever they wanted for data though. Not good.
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  • Reply 40 of 119
    Mobile operators will do there best to rip customers off as much as possible. They do this by:

    1) Long contracts

    2) Predefined 'bundles' of mins and texts

    3) Roaming charges

    It would great if Apple could shake things up offer packages which work for customers rather than the operators.
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