Apple to expand CPU design group beyond iPad A4

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  • Reply 101 of 169
    I've been browsing Patently Apple and found this:



    Quote:

    An Apple A4 Chip Related Patent Surfaces



    Today, in a newly published patent application from Apple Inc., we get to see a glimpse behind one of the many processes behind their new powerhouse A4 processor. Apple's patent reveals systems and methods for providing a system-on-a-substrate. In particular, this patent relates to systems and methods for reducing the total size of a system's circuitry by providing all of the components of the system on the same microchip. A microchip that the patent reveals is behind the iPad, iPhone and likely to be used in other future Apple products such as Apple TV.





    Patent Background





    Systems, such as systems for an electronic device, are often created from multiple components. For example, the components of a system could include one or more of a processor, memory (e.g., RAM, SDRAM, DDR RAM, or ROM), CODEC circuitry, Input/Output ("I/O") circuitry, communication circuitry, accelerometers, capacitors, inductors, or any other suitable components. Traditionally, each of these components is a distinct "entity" and could be created on a separate microchip or could be included in a separate package.



    To create the circuitry for the entire system, the separate components (e.g., separate microchips) are typically coupled together through a printed circuit board ("PCB") or other suitable medium. The PCB could be fabricated with the appropriate wiring or routing to suitably connect all of the separate components.





    Patent Summary





    Apple's patent generally relates to systems and methods for providing a system-on-a-substrate (like an SOC). For example, rather than including the components of a system as discrete entities (e.g., as discrete microchips or as discrete parts), the components of a system could be formed together in "bare die" form. In other words, the components could be formed together on a single substrate, such as a silicon die or a die of other suitable material. In this manner, the components of an entire system could be densely and efficiently packed together, thus allowing the system to achieve a smaller size than a system using components that are discrete entities.



    The components could include, for example, one or more of a processor, memory (e.g., RAM, SDRAM, DDR RAM, and ROM), CODEC circuitry, Input/Output ("I/O") circuitry, communication circuitry, accelerometers, capacitors, or any other suitable components.



    In some embodiments, a die including the components of a system could be coupled to a substrate. The substrate, in turn, could be coupled to a flexible printed circuit board ("flex"). The substrate and the flex could include any suitable wiring and routing to electrically couple the die to other parts of the system such as, for example, a flash memory. In some embodiments, the flex can be coupled to a different surface of the substrate than the die. In some embodiments, the flex can be coupled to the same surface of the substrate as the die.



    In some embodiments, the flex could include a ledge to which one or more components could be coupled. In some embodiments, a system could be created which does not include a substrate. In this case, all necessary wiring could be provided through the flex. In some embodiments, test points could be provided for a component of a die. For example, the test points could be included in a portion of the flex located substantially below the component to be tested.



    In some embodiments, rather than being included together in a single die, the components of a system could be included as discrete entities. The discrete entities could be coupled to a substrate rather than being coupled to a printed circuit board ("PCB"). As a substrate can have more stringent design rules than a PCB, coupling the discrete entities to the substrate could allow for a system that is smaller and more compact in size. For example, the wiring for the system could be created using fewer layers and could be formed more densely in a substrate than in a PCB.



    http://www.patentlyapple.com/patentl...aces.html#more





    I assume that by intelligently packaging the components of a "computer" system that you can reduce size and distance -- and that smaller size/distance will normally yield better performance at lower power.





    What I find interesting, and don't understand is:



    "In some embodiments, a system could be created which does not include a substrate."



    and



    "The discrete entities could be coupled to a substrate rather than being coupled to a printed circuit board ("PCB")."



    I assume that by intelligently packaging the components of a "computer" system that you can reduce size and distance -- and that smaller size/distance will normally yield better performance at lower power.
  • Reply 102 of 169
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post


    Apple will not buy AMD. It's far simpler to design a spec that leverages AMD's CPU/GPU => APU solution than it is to take on billions in debt.



    Intel and AMD will not be surpassed by ARM in CPU designs for Workstations, Desktops and high-end laptops.



    Any thoughts about ARM servers -- I understand the big attraction is the green factor -- low power, cooling, space, etc.
  • Reply 103 of 169
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    I've been browsing Patently Apple and found this:



    http://www.patentlyapple.com/patentl...aces.html#more



    Has anyone else even come close to matching Apple?s iPhone 4 PCB compression?
  • Reply 104 of 169
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    Has anyone else even come close to matching Apple’s iPhone 4 PCB compression?



    That's pretty impressive -- nice find.





    This is the closest I can find:



    It's amazing how far we've come since 1976.



    The picture shown below is about 1/4 the actual size.



    The nickname for this card set was the "Rotisserie" as you could prepare a small chicken when running.



    I suspect that gold plating on the 100 x 2 contacts would buy several iPads.



    These are only the graphics boards -- other similar sized boards were used, each separately, for the: computer, RAM, I/O, etc.









    Quote:

    The Cromemco Dazzler S-100 Video Board



    The Cromemco "Dazzler" dual S-100 boards were the boards that launched the Cromemco company. It went on to be the longest survivor of the major S100 companies building a series of outstanding commercial systems. The board set was made up of only 7400 TTL chips and allowed the display on a TV in color of graphic games and text. The resolution was primitive by today's standards. But we must remember that this was the era of "Pong".



    http://www.s100computers.com/Popups//Dazzler.htm



    Quote:

    The Dazzler supported four graphics modes in total, selected by setting or clearing bits in the control register (0F) that controlled two orthogonal selections. The first selected the size of the frame buffer, either 512 bytes or 2 kB. The other selected normal or "X4" mode, the former using 4-bit nybbles packed 2 to a byte in the frame buffer to produce a 8-color image, or the later which was a higher resolution monochrome mode using 1-bits per pixel, 8 to a byte. Selecting the mode indirectly selected the resolution. In normal mode with a 512 byte buffer there would be 512 bytes × 2 pixels per byte = 1,024 pixels, arranged as a 32 by 32 pixel image. A 2 kB buffer produced a 64 by 64 pixel image, while the highest resolution used a 2 kB buffer in X4 mode to produce a 128 by 128 pixel image.[8] In normal mode the color was selected from a fixed 8-color palette with an additional bit selecting intensity, while in X4 mode the foreground color was selected by setting three bits in the control register to turn on red, green or blue (or combinations) while a separate bit controlled the intensity.



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cromemco_Dazzler



    Edit: BTW, the colored, multi-wire flat cables were common in that era and were the inspiration for the Apple color logo -- originally used on the Apple ][.



  • Reply 105 of 169
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


    Well maybe because for many users the processor performance is not the primary indicator of good performance. Look at it this way the iPad processor can be best seen as a 486 class performance.



    erm no. The i486 was a single issue in order design. In Intel incarnations it never hit more than 100MHz and SIMD was a spark on the horizon when it was designed. It has L1 on chip but not L2.



    The Cortex A8 is a dual issue in order design capable of hitting ~1GHz with L1 and L2 cache on chip and has SIMD capabilities. If you insist to trying to compare total system performance with historical x86 processors you will have to go up into at least Pentium 3 territory.



    Comparisons are false though because Apple's SoC is fabricated on a modern process with a modern memory subsystem. A PIII would never have been able to decode H.264 at HD resolutions, Apple's SoC can.
  • Reply 106 of 169
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    You really feel the over all performance of a machine should be measured by random javascript on random websites?



    Well actually yeah. I have no control over how well a particular web site is written so when visiting you need to rely upon fast hardware to drive the site.

    Quote:



    You hit the nail on the head. Processor performance is not the primary indicator for good performance.



    Well not for many uses. However the A4 falls flat on its face when with with anything non trivial. for example any video that the hardware decoder can't handle directly. This is what really sucks about iPad right now, anytime something can't be handled by the special hardware units or the GPU comes up performance becomes glaringly bad.



    This is for CPU bound apps but there is a similar issue with the lack of RAM that leads to poor or impossible performance.

    Quote:



    What exactly are you using as a benchmark to measure the iPad against? Slow in comparison to what?



    Slow as to what I expect as a user. There is no need to compare it to anything, if the machine is not fluid or hesitates to much then it is slow. It is an issue of feel.

    Quote:

    Apple has sold roughly 14 million iPads in 2010. You feel it can barely deliver on its current needs. What other evidence is there of this?



    There is lots of evidence some of it coming directly from Apple. For an Apple example iPhone 4 comes with 512MB of RAM.
  • Reply 107 of 169
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by chelgrian View Post


    erm no. The i486 was a single issue in order design. In Intel incarnations it never hit more than 100MHz and SIMD was a spark on the horizon when it was designed. It has L1 on chip but not L2.



    The Cortex A8 is a dual issue in order design capable of hitting ~1GHz with L1 and L2 cache on chip and has SIMD capabilities. If you insist to trying to compare total system performance with historical x86 processors you will have to go up into at least Pentium 3 territory.



    Comparisons are false though because Apple's SoC is fabricated on a modern process with a modern memory subsystem. A PIII would never have been able to decode H.264 at HD resolutions, Apple's SoC can.



    I will have to see if I can dig up some performance numbers. Somebody has run a limited set of benchmarks on the A4 someplace. In any event the CPU performance isn'[t as good as many seem to believe. Apps like VLC and other video players highlight this.
  • Reply 108 of 169
    mdriftmeyermdriftmeyer Posts: 7,503member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    Any thoughts about ARM servers -- I understand the big attraction is the green factor -- low power, cooling, space, etc.



    With Bulldozer hitting the streets and Sandy Bridge, as well, I can see the first people attracted to ARM server form factors being the Telcos for very specific needs, routers/switches, but not for Data Clusters. That will be where Bulldozer and Sandy Bridge own the space, not to mention the newer Oracle boxes and it's vertical selling.



    ARM is targeting the ARM A-15 for Home and Web 2.0 servers, but nothing that would match the big folks.



    One observation is for certain: LLVM trunk has ARM Cortex A-9 build support.
  • Reply 109 of 169
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


    I will have to see if I can dig up some performance numbers. Somebody has run a limited set of benchmarks on the A4 someplace. In any event the CPU performance isn'[t as good as many seem to believe. Apps like VLC and other video players highlight this.



    Again this comparison is not good. The Apple H.264 decoder is highly optimised for the hardware. The codecs built into VLC mostly do not have hand crafted NEON optimisations and are using C fall-back routines running on the integer core.



    Optimising software *first* before throwing hardware at the problem is always a power win. I don't doubt that future iPads will have faster processors in them however it will be driven by things that physically can't be done by the current processor, 1080p H.264 decode for example.
  • Reply 110 of 169




    OT



    I am a creature of habit.



    I monitor several sites like AI for:



    1) New Articles that might be of interest to me



    2) New postings to discussion forums of articles That I have read and want to follow





    So, I monitor about 20 sites for articles of interest -- I have a single web page with 20 tabs -- 1 tab for each main site that may contain articles of interest to me.



    Periodically, i will reload all the tabs, then sequentially browse through them to see if any new articles have been posted to the main site.



    If I find an article of interest, I open that article in a separate window.



    Upon reading the article, I may decide to post a comment and/or review others' comments. Usually, I will just follow the "posts" link within the article window -- overwriting the article content with the posts content.





    After a few hours of this, I have my master window with 20 tabs, and sometimes 15 or more "article/posts" windows of the stuff I am actively reading or posting.





    To keep current, on all this, I must periodically:



    1) refresh the main site page (reload all the tabs) and sequentially open each tab to see if there are any new articles of interest



    2) sequentially reload each active "article/post" window to see if there are any new posts.





    I waste a lot of time and browser resources doing this!





    I am aware that RSS feeds can do some of this but you kinda' need to know in advance what you are looking for and you can be easily overloaded with info.





    Some of the article sites where I post, will email notifications when anyone else posts to an article to which I have posted. This is better than nothing... But a bit kludgey.







    What I think I want is an app/browser/service that allows me to:



    1) register the main pages of sites like AI that may contain articles of interest



    2) be notified automatically when any new article is posted to these sites.



    3) when I find an article of interest, I want the option to register this article as an article of interest



    4) be notified automatically when any new post is posted to these articles.





    Ideally, this would be a single app/window on the desktop or iPad that aggregates updates to all the things (sites/articles/posts) that I am following.





    I know enough about RSS, ScreenScraping and Push Notifications -- that this is not a major task!





    Does anything like this exist?



    .
  • Reply 111 of 169
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,388member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    Post just above



    Simultaneously seconded, thirded, and fourthed. I've never understood RSS and I'd love something just like this.
  • Reply 112 of 169
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


    Well actually yeah. I have no control over how well a particular web site is written so when visiting you need to rely upon fast hardware to drive the site.



    Can you link to anyone else of significance making this complaint about the iPad?



    Quote:

    Well not for many uses. However the A4 falls flat on its face when with with anything non trivial. for example any video that the hardware decoder can't handle directly. This is what really sucks about iPad right now, anytime something can't be handled by the special hardware units or the GPU comes up performance becomes glaringly bad.



    The only video codec the iPad can play is H.264. At most 720P, 30FPS, main profile. The A4 handles that with no problem.



    It cannot play any other video codec at all. I'm confused as to what are you talking about?



    Quote:

    Slow as to what I expect as a user. There is no need to compare it to anything, if the machine is not fluid or hesitates to much then it is slow. It is an issue of feel.



    Can you link to anyone else of significance making this complaint about the iPad?



    Quote:

    There is lots of evidence some of it coming directly from Apple. For an Apple example iPhone 4 comes with 512MB of RAM.



    So now you are making the argument that Apple should not increase the RAM in newer devices to prove their was enough RAM in the previous device?
  • Reply 113 of 169
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    That's essentially what I use twitter for. Every website and blog I read has a twitter feed. I scan the articles for what interests me and open the link to anything that jumps out.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    Does anything like this exist?



  • Reply 114 of 169
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    That's essentially what I use twitter for. Every website and blog I read has a twitter feed. I scan the articles for what interests me and open the link to anything that jumps out.



    Is there a twitter feed for AI?



    Is there a twitter feed for individual posts in AI?



    Do you get notifications when new articles are posted to Ai?



    Do you get notifications when a post is made to an AI article you are following?



    If so, do you have a link that shows how to set this up?





    I have a twitter account -- but only use it to follow a few people.



    I get an email when a person I follow posts something... Email notification is not ideal, but better than nothing!





    TIA



    Dick
  • Reply 115 of 169
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    Is there a twitter feed for AI?



    Is there a twitter feed for individual posts in AI?



    Do you get notifications when new articles are posted to Ai?



    Do you get notifications when a post is made to an AI article you are following?



    If so, do you have a link that shows how to set this up?





    I have a twitter account -- but only use it to follow a few people.



    I get an email when a person I follow posts something... Email notification is not ideal, but better than nothing!





    TIA



    Dick



    Yes, under the Twitter symbol next to the RSS symbol on the main page.



    No, it has no association with the forum.



    Yes, new articles are added to Twitter.



    No, that is what the vBulletin is for.
  • Reply 116 of 169
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    Yes, under the Twitter symbol next to the RSS symbol on the main page.



    No, it has no association with the forum.



    Yes, new articles are added to Twitter.



    No, that is what the vBulletin is for.



    Thx.



    I guess I have some work to do -- experimenting with twitter and vbulletin?



    I was considering writing a Mac or web app to handle RSS feeds and screen scraping (if necessary) for the artile posts -- then post notifications to an app on the iPad and Mac. I have bits of existing code that do these things... Not a great challenge.



    But, if it's readily available -- no need to reinvent the wheel.
  • Reply 117 of 169
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    I'm actually shocked at the number of patents apple has under its belt. I did not find what I was looking for tonight but did discover a large number of flash related patents and a few MMU and DMA controller patents.



    Fair warning though, the search system is anything but user friendly!!!!



    Dave
  • Reply 118 of 169
    hirohiro Posts: 2,663member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    AFAICT, Both Apple and Samsung are licensed to Design and Manufacture (two separate licenses) ARM CPUs.



    If Apple has Samsung manufacture the A4 (and follow-on) chips) -- does that mean that Samsung could use the same design in their competitive CPUs?



    I don't think so, I believe they have different flavors of license. Samsung with a license to use the CoreAxx line in a SoC and Apple with a full license to the ARM IP, allowing mucking about with the core as well. Neither Apple nor ARM has said so explicitly, but there is a fair bit of circumstantial and "talking around the concept" evidence.
  • Reply 119 of 169
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


    I'm actually shocked at the number of patents apple has under its belt. I did not find what I was looking for tonight but did discover a large number of flash related patents and a few MMU and DMA controller patents.



    Fair warning though, the search system is anything but user friendly!!!!



    Dave



    http://www.latestpatents.com
  • Reply 120 of 169
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hiro View Post


    I don't think so, I believe they have different flavors of license. Samsung with a license to use the CoreAxx line in a SoC and Apple with a full license to the ARM IP, allowing mucking about with the core as well. Neither Apple nor ARM has said so explicitly, but there is a fair bit of circumstantial and "talking around the concept" evidence.



    More to the point, Samsung would be in hot water trying to leach off the A4 as it's been patented for it's implementation and modified implementation licensed from ARM.
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