Apple to expand CPU design group beyond iPad A4

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  • Reply 121 of 169
    nvidia2008nvidia2008 Posts: 9,262member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


    I will have to see if I can dig up some performance numbers. Somebody has run a limited set of benchmarks on the A4 someplace. In any event the CPU performance isn'[t as good as many seem to believe. Apps like VLC and other video players highlight this.



    Look up Geekbench for iPhone and iPad. I think the CPU performance isn't as bad as many people seem to believe ...It depends on the software.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    The only video codec the iPad can play is H.264. At most 720P, 30FPS, main profile. The A4 handles that with no problem.

    It cannot play any other video codec at all. I'm confused as to what are you talking about?



    Check out CineXPlayer, VLC and OPlayer. They play MKV, XVID, etc. etc. and things have been gradually improving. CineXPlayer can do standard def XVID pretty damn well with sound in sync and everything. The difference between this and H.264 on iOS is that it is done purely with "standard CPU routines" without hardware acceleration. I haven't tried 720p XVIDs, I should give that a shot on my iPad. I think it's not too bad either, but not 100% sure on this.



    CineXPlayer is an example of an app that makes me think, while Intel and X86 Win/OSX on Mac has at least a five-year future, ARM design and especially, software design for ARM is going to make some real leaps and bounds. When we have 2ghz dualcore ARM CPUs with 4x the graphic horsepower and maybe OpenCL support or something, you can imagine in 2-4 years ARM "MacBook Air"s being quite possible.



    The killer feature for ARM is this: It would appear that it is easier to scale ARM *upwards* in performance while reaching real nice power and battery targets, rather than scaling *down* Intel and even AMD CPUs. The iPad is perfect for this middle ground between phone and laptop and desktop, and where ARM will shine over the next 5 years... However remember phone, tablet, laptop, desktop will all continue to be redefined.



    I repeat, I don't think Intel is going to suffer because Sandy Bridge and a few cycles after that they will have some stellar performance per watt for "mainstream" computing. But a swath of computing "under" that mainstream is going to be increasingly ARM-based in the next five years.\\



    And therein lies Apple's genius: Guess where Apple wants to be in the next five years? In "mainstream standard boring business computing", or sweeping up everything from under that.

    ;-)
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  • Reply 122 of 169
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    Ahh that is was he was getting at. That is still a completely false interpretation of the situation. Apple purposefully designed the iPad to only play H.264 using hardware acceleration. Those other players are essentially software work arounds to play non-supported codecs with variable degrees of success. But that is not because of any inherent problem with the A4. Its because Apple did not design the iPad to play those codecs using hardware acceloration.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post


    Check out CineXPlayer, VLC and OPlayer. They play MKV, XVID, etc. etc. and things have been gradually improving. CineXPlayer can do standard def XVID pretty damn well with sound in sync and everything. The difference between this and H.264 on iOS is that it is done purely with "standard CPU routines" without hardware acceleration.

    ;-)



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  • Reply 123 of 169
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    Ahh that is was he was getting at. That is still a completely false interpretation of the situation. Apple purposefully designed the iPad to only play H.264 using hardware acceleration. Those other players are essentially software work arounds to play non-supported codecs with variable degrees of success. But that is not because of any inherent problem with the A4. Its because Apple did not design the iPad to play those codecs using hardware acceloration.



    Does DivX even have HWA? HandBrake doesn’t even support AVI/DivX anymore. MKV containers often seem to use HD content and therefore use the H.264 codec, but those apps can’t accelerate it as far a I know. Maybe in iOS 5.0, but I doubt it.
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  • Reply 124 of 169
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    From what I've read it does not.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    Does DivX even have HWA?



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  • Reply 125 of 169
    samabsamab Posts: 1,953member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hiro View Post


    Lets not go down this road again shall we? You failed utterly in another thread on the same set of related arguments.



    Your factoids don't mean all companies see the same failure rates, especially when what they are starting out with are far different things. Applied Micro trying to make a low power part out of a high power PPC isn't exactly a slam dunk win combination. Intrinsity couldn't help enough, but PA Sami shows it could be done when a focused team is on the job rather than just consulting to a large entrenched bureaucracy. And 4 years from tech startup to finished product says the product cycle is actually shorter than the 4 years you are trying to portray it as.



    True to form you let your own examples undercut your absolut-ism.



    No, lets not go down this road --- when one week after the last argument, you talked about how Apple is going to do a process shrink to the A4 to put it in the next iphone. By your original argument, Apple should be releasing their own dual core compatible core by then. That's a huge difference between the two.



    It's actually closer to 5 years because PA Semi was founded in 2003 and their CPU wasn't launched until Q4 2007. And that's just to ship to customers who would have to spend another year to design their end product around the new CPU. You add an extra year into the time to design the actual phone around the new CPU, that closer to 6 years.



    Qualcomm spent the same amount of time developing the Snapdragon chips. It is the norm for the industry --- nothing special about PA Semi.
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  • Reply 126 of 169
    Re: iPad Playing other codecs...



    I read somewhere that one advantage of playing other codecs is that a device can read/play camera data directly.



    I just tested my 7-year-old Cannon PowerShot and the iPad will import, then Play Video.



    Not so for my 5-year-old Sony DCR HC42.



    Nor my Panny HDC-SD1... the Panny uses AVCHD and that decode pegs the Mac's CPU cores.



    It would be nice, if the next-gen iPad were robust enough (CPUs and GPUs) to handle import and conversion of video from external cameras.



    An 8 GB HDSC card from the Panny converts to about 57 GB.



    iMovie on the Mac lets you preview individual clips and then select what you want to import/convert.



    I am hoping that the iPad Gen 2 will support iMovie -- and allow preview/import/conversion/play from a broad range of external cameras (and not be limited to any internal cameras)



    External cameras usually have 10-12x optical zoom and much better picture quality than a camera could be built into an iPad.
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  • Reply 127 of 169
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    ...



    What I think I want is an app/browser/service that allows me to:



    1) register the main pages of sites like AI that may contain articles of interest



    2) be notified automatically when any new article is posted to these sites.



    3) when I find an article of interest, I want the option to register this article as an article of interest



    4) be notified automatically when any new post is posted to these articles.





    Ideally, this would be a single app/window on the desktop or iPad that aggregates updates to all the things (sites/articles/posts) that I am following.





    I know enough about RSS, ScreenScraping and Push Notifications -- that this is not a major task!





    Does anything like this exist?



    .



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    That's essentially what I use twitter for. Every website and blog I read has a twitter feed. I scan the articles for what interests me and open the link to anything that jumps out.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    Is there a twitter feed for AI?



    Is there a twitter feed for individual posts in AI?



    Do you get notifications when new articles are posted to Ai?



    Do you get notifications when a post is made to an AI article you are following?



    If so, do you have a link that shows how to set this up?





    I have a twitter account -- but only use it to follow a few people.



    I get an email when a person I follow posts something... Email notification is not ideal, but better than nothing!





    TIA



    Dick



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    Yes, under the Twitter symbol next to the RSS symbol on the main page.



    No, it has no association with the forum.



    Yes, new articles are added to Twitter.



    No, that is what the vBulletin is for.





    I did some experimenting with twitter and investigation of vBulletin.



    These won't meet my needs:



    1) Twitter, on AI, for instance allows me to follow all AI articles -- I want to follow only selected AI articles that Interest me. This is the information overload I want to avoid.



    2) Also, when an article no-longer interests me, I want to stop following it, while continuing to follow others.



    3) the vBulletin, AFAICT, requires the site to be running its software -- without it, there is no way to follow individual forum threads.





    I have been thinking about It, and have an idea for an implementation similar to Flipboard -- where I could include:



    1) sites to monitor and be notified when any new articles are posted the site



    2) articles to monitor and be notified when any new posts are made to the forum thread.





    I would use the app as follows:



    3) Browse the app to see the sites I am monitoring, showing the articles I am monitoring (optionally showing all current articles -- including those not being monitored)



    4) Browse the threads for the articles I am monitoring -- showing the last post I viewed, plus n prior posts, and all subsequent posts.





    When new article is posted, or a new post is made to a thread -- the app would get a Push Notification and Badge.



    A glance at the app's icon would indicate new activity.



    The next time I use the app, I would have all the changes (new articles, new thread posts) at my fingertips (indicated by the badges) and could go directly to them.



    I have some things to finish up, but I am going to play around with this in the next few weeks.



    .
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  • Reply 128 of 169
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    What you are talking about isn't directly related to the hardware in the iPad. Video codec incompatibilities are a whole mess that the camera manufacturers themselves create.



    There have been efforts by the International Electronics Commission and International Telecommunications Union both to create standard interoperable video codecs that will work across all devices. In the professional and semi-professional world video manufacturers mostly follow the standard codecs.



    In the consumer space they don't necessarily follow standard codecs at all. Sony, Panasonic, Canon, JVC all invent proprietary codecs that are mostly slight tweaks of standard codecs. For the purpose of locking the consumer into their products. These companies frequently create consumer codecs for products that fail in the market and abandon further support for the codec.



    Apple makes much more of an effort to support the cacophony of consumer codecs in iMovie, but Final Cut Pro doesn't support them all.



    When it comes down to playback on consumer devices, attempting to support all of these codecs is unnecessary and futile as old ones will be abandoned and there will always be new ones.



    To simplify all of this Apple brings everything back to H.264. If your codec is a derivative of H.264, its likely to be playable on an Apple consumer device.



    So the problem is not with Apple. Its with video camera manufactures who continuously create proprietary codecs to lock people into their system.



    In the pro video world, camera manufacturers have begun to use Apple ProRes to create native QuickTime files. So that the video is ready for editing right out of the camera without conversion. That would be a nice trend industry wide.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    Re: iPad Playing other codecs...



    I read somewhere that one advantage of playing other codecs is that a device can read/play camera data directly.



    I just tested my 7-year-old Cannon PowerShot and the iPad will import, then Play Video.



    Not so for my 5-year-old Sony DCR HC42.



    Nor my Panny HDC-SD1... the Panny uses AVCHD and that decode pegs the Mac's CPU cores.



    It would be nice, if the next-gen iPad were robust enough (CPUs and GPUs) to handle import and conversion of video from external cameras.



    An 8 GB HDSC card from the Panny converts to about 57 GB.



    iMovie on the Mac lets you preview individual clips and then select what you want to import/convert.



    I am hoping that the iPad Gen 2 will support iMovie -- and allow preview/import/conversion/play from a broad range of external cameras (and not be limited to any internal cameras)



    External cameras usually have 10-12x optical zoom and much better picture quality than a camera could be built into an iPad.



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  • Reply 129 of 169
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    That certainly would be interesting to see.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    I would use the app as follows:



    3) Browse the app to see the sites I am monitoring, showing the articles I am monitoring (optionally showing all current articles -- including those not being monitored)



    4) Browse the threads for the articles I am monitoring -- showing the last post I viewed, plus n prior posts, and all subsequent posts.





    When new article is posted, or a new post is made to a thread -- the app would get a Push Notification and Badge.



    A glance at the app's icon would indicate new activity.



    The next time I use the app, I would have all the changes (new articles, new thread posts) at my fingertips (indicated by the badges) and could go directly to them.



    I have some things to finish up, but I am going to play around with this in the next few weeks.



    .



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  • Reply 130 of 169
    SpamSandwichspamsandwich Posts: 33,407member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    It isn't just wages and taxes -- there are a whole slew of regulations that are unfriendly to manufacturing.



    While semiconductor manufacturing is relatively "clean" it still involves hazardous chemicals usage and disposal.



    Sadly, because of Federal and State wage, tax and regulation -- there is very little "silicon" manufactured in Silicon Valley.



    It makes me wonder if Apple will remain a cutting edge manufacturer right through the beginnings of the nano-fabrication age, and when might we actually see a completely solid-state device constructed atom-by-atom come from Apple?



    Also, the dearth of information on whatever Apple is planning to do with their upcoming releases indicates to me that they have successfully fired or sussed out leakers and dealt with them accordingly. Where's the 'insider' info?
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  • Reply 131 of 169
    hirohiro Posts: 2,663member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samab View Post


    No, lets not go down this road --- when one week after the last argument, you talked about how Apple is going to do a process shrink to the A4 to put it in the next iphone. By your original argument, Apple should be releasing their own dual core compatible core by then. That's a huge difference between the two.



    Making up your own non-existant interpretations rather than reading the words on the screen again I see. When you quit being such an intentional reader-with-his-own-twisted/added-contexter maybe we can believe some small part of what you write. Now for the correction, I opined that a nice tactic for Apple would be to shrink the A4 for an iPhone and release a dual core A4 follow on for the iPad to facilitate product differentiation and take advantage of additional power savings a shrunk die A4 would provide for the phone. Here's the text, I QFT myself!

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hiro View Post


    A 30nm class A4 would do very nicely in an iPhone, as it should be extremely battery friendly, leaving any potential dual core A5 for the iPad as a product line differentiator.



    I didn't say what Apple would do and I already addressed the supposed large missing piece of logic you tried to seize on. And even provided a nice motivation for why it might make sense. Basically you took a leap of ill will and forgot to strap on the parachute. oops.



    Quote:

    It's actually closer to 5 years because PA Semi was founded in 2003 and their CPU wasn't launched until Q4 2007. And that's just to ship to customers who would have to spend another year to design their end product around the new CPU. You add an extra year into the time to design the actual phone around the new CPU, that closer to 6 years.



    Did you work for PA Semi? Were you party to EXACTLY the fact that they decided to start a company to do EXACTLY the single task you say it took them 4-5 years to accomplish? Unless you are a plankholder in PA Semi you don't know when they started work on any particular CPU project. By your logic they would have had to have the Motorola PPC licenses the day they opened shop, I find it pretty unlikely they did. It is far more likely they started their own projects a year or two AFTER they proved they had the chops to do that sort of work on contract. Thus the timeline would be more on the order of 3 years or so.



    Quote:

    Qualcomm spent the same amount of time developing the Snapdragon chips. It is the norm for the industry --- nothing special about PA Semi.



    Again do you know exactly when what design goal decisions were made when? Do you really think Qualcomm decided one day "Hey, lets make a brand new CPU nobody ever saw before!" ? Then they decided to license ARM IP to do it? And then the day the ink was dry they began designing? If so you are ignoring the spool-up time in learning what goes where why. That can be a year or two before they could have the confidence to throw caution to the wind and start putting together something completely different.



    Apple ASIC engineers have been playing with ARM-based hardware for decades. Apple has been extremely serious with ARM-based hardware for the iPhone line since at least 2003. Apple didn't start from a standing no-nothing start in 2007, so your ~gotta have at least 4 years to deliver an ARM related product~ don't really fit, and as many times as different folks have posted that, you have ignored it. When did the new chip development clock really start? When did Apple decide to strategically move from part consumer to part designer? How much clue did internal Apple ARM ASIC engineers already have and just needed I access to the IP and a few select PA Semi engineers to really get a project completed? We already know Apple has always looked at generating custom ASICS and does so with great regularity. And Apple has been helping manufacturers tweak CPU designs to meet Apple desires for several decades too. Apple wasn't designing a CPU from scratch anywhere in there, but they aren't strangers to the neighborhood either.



    You ignore all of this and get absolutist in that if someone doesn't subscribe to your flawed timeline they are just plain wrong. Well as usual, absolutist makes for a fragile, brittle stance that just doesn't hold up to poking and prodding with the facts.
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  • Reply 132 of 169
    samabsamab Posts: 1,953member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hiro View Post


    You ignore all of this and get absolutist in that if someone doesn't subscribe to your flawed timeline they are just plain wrong. Well as usual, absolutist makes for a fragile, brittle stance that just doesn't hold up to poking and prodding with the facts.



    It is not a flawed timeline --- if EVERYBODY is taking that same amount of time, no matter how smart these engineers are.



    However it is just plain wrong to expect Apple to HALF the time that the whole industry spent. From the time silicon companies start designing their own ARM cores to the time you get to see Motorola/Nokia actually shipping a phone with those ARM cpus --- takes about 6 years.



    Can Apple do faster than the rest of the industry? Absolutely. But can Apple literally half the development time than the rest of the industry? Absolutely not. Nothing fragile or brittle with my stance.
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  • Reply 133 of 169
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samab View Post


    It is not a flawed timeline --- if EVERYBODY is taking that same amount of time, no matter how smart these engineers are.



    However it is just plain wrong to expect Apple to HALF the time that the whole industry spent. From the time silicon companies start designing their own ARM cores to the time you get to see Motorola/Nokia actually shipping a phone with those ARM cpus --- takes about 6 years.



    Can Apple do faster than the rest of the industry? Absolutely. But can Apple literally half the development time than the rest of the industry? Absolutely not. Nothing fragile or brittle with my stance.



    You know... I am not qualified, in the slightest, to argue the technical aspects of this discussion.



    But, as to the logical:



    @Hiro refuted every one of your prior post's points!



    Then you come back with "is not a flawed timeline --- if EVERYBODY is taking that same amount of time, no matter how smart these engineers are."



    @Hiro illustrated that there is no way for you to prove that "EVERYBODY" ... "takes about 6 years".





    Please provide links supporting your broad assertions.



    Otherwise, respond in kind to the refutations provided.





    From a logical perspective, you appear as a stubborn child blaring his own set of facts, while covering his eyes and ears -- oblivious to reality.



    Further, this appears to be the MO you use in every thread you post... Is it working for you -- it doesn't seem to be very convincing to others.





    It detracts from, rather than adds to the discussion!





    Edit: Here's a quote from the CEO of ARM on 12/15/10.



    If you read the article, he is talking about ARM hardware, estimated to be available in 2014 (4 years or less). The ARM hardware hasn't been announced yet.





    Quote:

    In an interview with Bloomberg news-agency, Warren East, chief executive officer of ARM Holding, said that the company aims to start eroding Intel Corp.’s dominance in the server market in 2014. This means that even the company itself does not believe in quick adoption of its processors by manufacturers of servers as well as their customers. Moreover, indirectly this claim proves that ARM-based processors in foreseeable future will not be able to offer competitive performance and features available from AMD Opteron and Intel Xeon.





    “Work is under way: System designers are actively considering ARM architectures. We don’t want to raise expectations that next year there are going to be a lot of ARM servers. Of course, there aren’t," said Mr. East.



    So, "designers are actively considering" in 2010, to use unannounced architecture, to be available within 4 years.





    http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/dis...our_Years.html





    Kinda knocks the wind out of your "EVERYBODY" ... "takes about 6 years".... doesn't it.





    Who do you believe is better qualified to predict the timeline? You or the CEO of ARM?



    .
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  • Reply 134 of 169
    samabsamab Posts: 1,953member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    @Hiro refuted every one of your prior post's points!



    No, he hasn't --- because he kept changing his arguments (while my arguments have been the same).



    He was originally talking about Apple releasing their own dual core "compatible" core for ipad2/iphone5. I showed him how unreasonable his timeline was --- then he changed his argument by saying that Apple is going to process shrink the A4 and even dual core A4. You can't dual-core an A4 because Cortex A8 is designed to be single core only.



    I don't know anything about PA Semi --- except that most of the top people left after Apple bought them, because Apple didn't price their stock options to their liking.
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  • Reply 135 of 169
    For the experts here:



    According to what I've read the A4 is a relatively minor tweak of the Cortex A8 (with a GPU in the same package). With this approach, Apple was able to gain performance while minimizing risk and reducing time to market!



    What would happen if Apple has taken the same approach to a dual-core Cortex A9 -- with a GPU capable of OpenCL?





    NVIDIA announced the Tegra 2 A9 in Jan 2009, and was shipping product before Dec 2009.



    I don't know when NVIDIA began work on the Tegra 2.





    How long would it take Apple to do a A4-like tweak to the A9, for the A5?



    When do you suppose Apple would have begun working on such a tweak?



    When would you expect Apple could supply A5s in quantity to satisfy iPad demand?



    .
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  • Reply 136 of 169
    samabsamab Posts: 1,953member
    It didn't take long for Intrinsity to make the Hummingbird for Samsung.



    http://www.redorbit.com/news/technol...wer/index.html
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  • Reply 137 of 169
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samab View Post


    He was originally talking about Apple releasing their own dual core "compatible" core for ipad2/iphone5. I showed him how unreasonable his timeline was --- then he changed his argument by saying that Apple is going to process shrink the A4 and even dual core A4. You can't dual-core an A4 because Cortex A8 is designed to be single core only.



    It didn?t occur to you that ?A4? could simply refer to Apple?s versioning of ARM CPUs as a whole because there is no other known term for Apple?s A4 marketing. For all you know Apple will keep ?A4? for ARMv7 chips they tweak.
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  • Reply 138 of 169
    samabsamab Posts: 1,953member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    It didn?t occur to you that ?A4? could simply refer to Apple?s versioning of ARM CPUs as a whole because there is no other known term for Apple?s A4 marketing. For all you know Apple will keep ?A4? for ARMv7 chips they tweak.



    It never occur to me because I speak in very precise terms and Hiro doesn't. Who knows what Hiro meant when he said things --- because he had zero idea what he was talking about. Then he had the balls to start throwing insults left and right saying that I knew nothing --- when he didn't even understand a simple term such as "architecture license".
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  • Reply 139 of 169
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by samab View Post


    It didn't take long for Intrinsity to make the Hummingbird for Samsung.



    http://www.redorbit.com/news/technol...wer/index.html



    OK the way I read the timeline:





    XXX 200-: Samsung/Intrinsity begin work on Hummingbird





    Sep 2008: Samsung/Intrinsity Announce Hummingbird (your link)



    http://www.redorbit.com/news/technol...wer/index.html





    Jul 2009: Hummingbird Silicon Available



    http://www.samsung.com/global/busine...o?news_id=1030





    Oct 2010: Products with Hummingbird ship



    http://www.fudzilla.com/mobiles/item...-a-porn-button







    When do you think that they, Samsung/Intrinsity, began working on this?





    Do you think that Apple was working with Intrinsity at the same time?





    Recall that Apple bought Intrinsity in Apr 2010 -- and was rumored to worked with Intrinsity on the A4.



    http://digitaldaily.allthingsd.com/2...ys-intrinsity/





    OK, given all that, why do you continue to assert:



    "EVERYBODY" ... "takes about 6 years"?





    By the dates you provided, Samsung/Intrinsity took a little over 2 years for the Hummingbird.



    I suspect, in actuality, it took a little longer (even 3 years) if they began work in 2007.





    But that's a far cry from 6 years.



    .
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  • Reply 140 of 169
    samabsamab Posts: 1,953member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    OK, given all that, why do you continue to assert:



    "EVERYBODY" ... "takes about 6 years"?





    By the dates you provided, Samsung/Intrinsity took a little over 2 years for the Hummingbird.



    I suspect, in actuality, it took a little longer (even 3 years) if they began work in 2007.





    But that's a far cry from 6 years.



    .



    6 years in what it takes for designing a COMPATIBLE core and shipping a cell phone with that compatible core.



    Hummingbird and the A4 are using cortex A8 core --- not a compatible core.
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