I think you make his case in your anecdotes. A couple things I didn?t care for was the inconsistency of cut/copy/paste and the way videos are played.
On the iPhone cut/copy/paste works the exact same way regardless of what app you are in. This was an issue with Android 2.1 and I don?t think it was resolved as of 2.3.
Can you be more specific? Or give me an example. I never found cut/copy/paste work differently across apps on my Nexus One with 2.2. I am genuinely curious to find this inconsistency you're referring to.
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Originally Posted by solipsism
Then there are playing videos and music. On the iPhone you simply go to the well known iPod app. I couldn?t figure out how to upload and play videos on the first Android phone I used.
Drag and drop on the computer through USB drive. And all videos (which are visual media) show up in the gallery. Click on them and they play. What's so hard about that?
I chalk this one up to the fact that you are coming from iOS where you are used to thinking of having video and music in one player whereas Android groups visual media (pictures and movies) in one place (the gallery) and puts music in another place. And this is why I always wonder about complaints about "useability". I seriously wonder sometimes if just the fact that you are used to doing it one way and when you go to a system that does it differently, you automatically feel that the new way of doing things is inferior. Learned behaviour makes it very uncomfortable for you to learn something new.
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Originally Posted by solipsism
Then there are vendors that cause inconsistencies for Android-based devices. Different UIs, different button configurations, etc, even within the same vendor across lateral models.
Another overblown complaint. I just played my roomie's new Captivate. I use a Nexus One. I had no issues figuring out his handset. He had a few apps that were different. But the core apps were the same and the phone absolutely worked the same way. I am starting to think that people just regurgitate these complaints. Before you repeat this stuff ad nauseam, why don't you actually play with a few different Android phones (and for more than a minute each). You'll quickly see how complaints about 'UI fragmentation' are vastly overblown....and basically irrelevant, since people don't keep switching handsets daily.
As for different buttons configurations....if somebody can't figure out 4 main buttons (home, search, menu, back) which hardly yield that many different configurations, then they shouldn't be using a smartphone period. Does it take a minute to get used to buttons being a different spot? Yes. Does it matter much? Not really. You'll get used to the phone and then it really won't matter after the first minute or so.
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Originally Posted by solipsism
With the iPhone it?s consistent. You have an annual HW and OS stepping, with the new model having a little more than the previous year with iOS support going back 3 years. This 3 years adds a certain level of peace of mind, though it?s probably out-of-sight/out-of-mind for most unless you have a fairly new Android phone and find out that it won?t be getting any future updates from your carrier/vendor. This 3 years of updates also helps with the value of the device which can significantly lower the TCO of that device.
This is one area I will give you. The management of updates has to improve on Android. That said, it's not bad for an OS that's only been around 2 years and only taken off in the last one. And I am sure consumers will learn to reward the OEMs that do their best to push updates forward.
Sometimes though, it does make sense to cut off updates. How many iPhone 3G owners really liked iOS 4? And how much restrictions did Apple slap on to make it work on the 3G? Would they have been better off without the updates? Just because you get 3 years of support doesn't always mean it makes sense to give 3 years of updates (especially when the hardware can't support it). The unfortunate part for Android is that the platform advances so rapdily (particularly in the last year) that it's inevitable that some handsets will get left behind. With the update cycle slowing down, I think things will improve markedly. Just look at the version numbers and how quickly Android 2.2 was adopted. Fragmentation will become less and less of an issue over time.
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Originally Posted by solipsism
Then there is a confusing system for users who want an app that works on their system. With the iPhone everything is <blank> or later.
That's quite an assumption. So people who have the original iPhone will have all apps designed for iOS4 work on their phone?
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Originally Posted by solipsism
If you have that phone or a newer one you are fine. You have that version of iOS or a newer you are fine. Can?t do that when there are hundreds of handsets on the market for your OS. This is all apps, probably not even most, but it?s enough that it can be frustrating for the user.
It's not the number of handsets on the OS that matters. It's the version you are on. The market automatically checks which apps work with your phone OS version and only shows you those. How is this very challenging or frustrating?
Now if you are suggesting that every Android owner should be able to download any and every app, I'd ask you how this is any different than suggesting that an iPhone 2G or iPhone 3G owner should be allowed to download apps optimized for iOS 4.
Can you be more specific? Or give me an example. I never found cut/copy/paste work differently across apps on my Nexus One with 2.2. I am genuinely curious to find this inconsistency you're referring to.
I recall not being able to do any copy/paste in Gmail and in other apps. I recall inconsistencies with the way you select in the browser. For instance, not being able to select and copy text unless it was a text box or first choosing Menu » More » Select instead of the press and hold method already present. How can you suggest that is a consistent method?
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Drag and drop on the computer through USB drive. And all videos (which are visual media) show up in the gallery. Click on them and they play. What's so hard about that?
That method worked out so well for the PMP market that even at reduced prices the iPod was able to monopolized the market. BTW, the idea that the way to find all videos are in the Gallery is absurd. That is not a good name for your PMP media.
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I chalk this one up to the fact that you are coming from iOS where you are used to thinking of having video and music in one player whereas Android groups visual media (pictures and movies) in one place (the gallery) and puts music in another place. And this is why I always wonder about complaints about "useability". I seriously wonder sometimes if just the fact that you are used to doing it one way and when you go to a system that does it differently, you automatically feel that the new way of doing things is inferior. Learned behaviour makes it very uncomfortable for you to learn something new.
Android groups are a lot newer and smaller than iPod groups. Again, Apple won the PMP market because of the iTunes ecosystem, not because their HW was any better or cheaper. Having to mount as USB drive, then drag and drop items into the Gallery folder is not user friendly. The problem with hardcore Android users is they think options equals freedom equals better but most people want a device that simply works. There is a reason lumberjacks don?t use a Swiss Army Knife to fell trees. ?But it has a saw and all these other tools. You?re saw is only one tool.? See how silly that sounds? The best tool for the job is usually the one that works best, not the one with the most options.
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Another overblown complaint. I just played my roomie's new Captivate. I use a Nexus One. I had no issues figuring out his handset. He had a few apps that were different. But the core apps were the same and the phone absolutely worked the same way. I am starting to think that people just regurgitate these complaints. Before you repeat this stuff ad nauseam, why don't you actually play with a few different Android phones (and for more than a minute each). You'll quickly see how complaints about 'UI fragmentation' are vastly overblown....and basically irrelevant, since people don't keep switching handsets daily.
As for different buttons configurations....if somebody can't figure out 4 main buttons (home, search, menu, back) which hardly yield that many different configurations, then they shouldn't be using a smartphone period. Does it take a minute to get used to buttons being a different spot? Yes. Does it matter much? Not really. You'll get used to the phone and then it really won't matter after the first minute or so.
Usability has no barring on how quickly you can adapt. Most people aren?t quick to adapt to change. I don?t think a different button order or a different UI is a big deal and I?ll judge each independently for their pros and cons, but we?re not the masses. Being a member of a tech site pretty much excludes from that. Consistency offers peace of mind. That is good business.
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This is one area I will give you. The management of updates has to improve on Android. That said, it's not bad for an OS that's only been around 2 years and only taken off in the last one. And I am sure consumers will learn to reward the OEMs that do their best to push updates forward.
The original iPhone had 3 years of rich updates. Yet how many of the Android-based phones from just two years ago have version 2.3. I think one (maybe two) is shipping with 2.3. Hasn?t that been out on the Samsung Galaxy S since December? Again, consistency is key and Apple had iOS 4.0 for the new iPhone and the two previous years at the same time. Now, many iPhone 3G devices took ill with iOS 4.0 and that affected user trust with Apple?s update, but that?s a different issue with consistency.
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The unfortunate part for Android is that the platform advances so rapdily (particularly in the last year) that it's inevitable that some handsets will get left behind.
You really think the Sony Xperia X10 with Android 2.1 released last October shouldn?t get any furthr Android updates because Android is moving so fast? I?d love for you to tell an Xperia user that.
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With the update cycle slowing down, I think things will improve markedly. Just look at the version numbers and how quickly Android 2.2 was adopted. Fragmentation will become less and less of an issue over time.
No it won?t. There will be even more devices using Android and they will be cheaper and cheaper devices using it. I suspect that even the dumbest phones on the market will eventually using Android en masse. The HW is advancing while getting cheaper and Android offers too many benefits to vendors to ignore. The issue will get worse.
Now for modern smartphones I think you have a point. I think those will get longer update cycles, but those won?t be the biggest market for Android, they?ll just be the flagship models from vendors.
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That's quite an assumption. So people who have the original iPhone will have all apps designed for iOS4 work on their phone?
Do you not realize the original iPhone doesn?t have iOS 4.0? Perhaps you misunderstood that ?or later? means newer, not older. I can see how that could be ambiguous if the context was missed.
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It's not the number of handsets on the OS that matters. It's the version you are on. The market automatically checks which apps work with your phone OS version and only shows you those. How is this very challenging or frustrating?
So you?re saying that all devices that run Android v2.2 can play the same apps? No. Angry Birds is a great example of how this is just not the case. Angry Birds is also a great example of how having a health number of apps and units with your OS by number isn?t necessarily a great if your cost for development is higher and your number of actual sales is lower. This is business, so some singled out metric does not prove profitability.
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Now if you are suggesting that every Android owner should be able to download any and every app, I'd ask you how this is any different than suggesting that an iPhone 2G or iPhone 3G owner should be allowed to download apps optimized for iOS 4.
I already stated this. I think I was clear about a user who has a 4 year old iPhone isn?t going to expect a new app to work as much as someone who has a new Android-based smartphone, and how Apple?s annual, in-line update system makes it easier for users. The Sony Xperia X10 is a prime example of this.
This is a bit off-topic but is meant as a serious inquiry.
I know that Android 3.0 is advertised as being the first tablet-ready version of Android. I am also assuming that Android v3 will become available for Android phones. Does anyone know if any existing Android phones will be upgradable to v3?
This is a bit off-topic but is meant as a serious inquiry.
I know that Android 3.0 is advertised as being the first tablet-ready version of Android. I am also assuming that Android v3 will become available for Android phones. Does anyone know if any existing Android phones will be upgradable to v3?
That?s a good question. Most phones I saw were going to be shipped with Android v2.2 and I can?t recall any mention of Android 3.0 coming to those phones and only a little mention of 2.3. Google promo ad said it was designed for tablets. That tells me that phones will come later. I don?t even recall a due date for Honeycomb.
That?s a good question. Most phones I saw were going to be shipped with Android v2.2 and I can?t recall any mention of Android 3.0 coming to those phones and only a little mention of 2.3. Google promo ad said it was designed for tablets. That tells me that phones will come later. I don?t even recall a due date for Honeycomb.
The Motorola XOOM is supposed to run Honeycomb as I recall. Really makes you wonder how close they are to a real product. I'm guessing we will see Honeycomb in March or April.
iOs will never have as many applications, because Apple has a moral responsibility to curate their user's experience. There's plenty of porn on Android, so right there there's lots more Android software. But iOS software is much higher quality and has higher moral standards.
If people want porn, they can buy an Android phone. There?s a porn store for Android. You can download nothing but porn. You can download porn, and your kids can download porn. That's the reality of Android.
I recall not being able to do any copy/paste in Gmail and in other apps. I recall inconsistencies with the way you select in the browser. For instance, not being able to select and copy text unless it was a text box or first choosing Menu » More » Select instead of the press and hold method already present. How can you suggest that is a consistent method?
Seems consistent to me. You're always using the same method to copy and paste. One for text boxes. One for the browser (which is kinda like how you would select text on a desktop browser). The issue is that there's no copy/paste for other apps (Just gmail) as of now.
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Originally Posted by solipsism
That method worked out so well for the PMP market that even at reduced prices the iPod was able to monopolized the market.
You know as well as I do that it was the clickwheel and the iTMS that helped sell iPods. How videos were put on had very little to do with it. Most people (except hardcore Apple fans) fine iTunes to be a pain in the six.
And it's literally drag and drop. You don't even have to pick a folder. Just drop onto the drive.
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Originally Posted by solipsism
BTW, the idea that the way to find all videos are in the Gallery is absurd. That is not a good name for your PMP media.
I disagree. Again, I think it's an issue of what you are used to. If you had never used an iPhone, then you wouldn't think this strange. Not just that...Android doesn't have a media app a la iTunes. The music player is surprisingly called....Music. You would expect it to play music and not videos.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism
Android groups are a lot newer and smaller than iPod groups. Again, Apple won the PMP market because of the iTunes ecosystem, not because their HW was any better or cheaper.
Right. So quit suggesting that how you put the video on the device helped the iPod win the PMP war. That's just absurd.
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Originally Posted by solipsism
Having to mount as USB drive, then drag and drop items into the Gallery folder is not user friendly.
That's your opinion. There's tons of folks and everyday users that find iTunes a pain. They'd find drag and drop fairly sensible. Different strokes for different folks.
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Originally Posted by solipsism
The problem with hardcore Android users is they think options equals freedom equals better but most people want a device that simply works.
And the problem with Apple fans is that they think the only right way is the Apple way. Their blinders are so thick that they can conceive that people might not think the Apple way is the best.
Do you use iTunes to load up your USB stick? Why would loading up your phone be any more or less challenging? You don't have to sort out folders or anything. You literally just drop whatever you want onto the phone and the players finds it for you.
And what the hell does this have to do with "options" and "freedom". We're just discussing how something works. Why do you insist or resorting to generic anti-Android crap every second paragraph?
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Originally Posted by solipsism
There is a reason lumberjacks don?t use a Swiss Army Knife to fell trees. ?But it has a saw and all these other tools. You?re saw is only one tool.? See how silly that sounds?
About as silly as bringing lumberjacks into a discussion about how a piece of technology works....
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Originally Posted by solipsism
Usability has no barring on how quickly you can adapt.
Actually it does. Something that's easier to learn is easier to adapt to. Work a job that's high stress and/or involves high man-machine interactions and you'll see this. Certainly in my line of work (the aerospace sector) we see improved UI in the cockpits drastically improving aircrew training (shortening training times, improving safety, etc.).
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism
Most people aren?t quick to adapt to change. I don?t think a different button order or a different UI is a big deal and I?ll judge each independently for their pros and cons, but we?re not the masses. Being a member of a tech site pretty much excludes from that. Consistency offers peace of mind. That is good business.
At the end of the day, it's a smartphone, not a new way to drive a car. I think you misjudge people's ability to adapt. Most touchcreen phones have basically the same gestures for most functions. And most folks rarely get to any serious depth beyond very basic app use....read on browser, navigate on maps, send and receive texts and emails, use a few other apps. I am even going to suggest for example that most smartphone users rarely use features like copy/paste...this is why it wasn't a big deal when the iPhone didn't have it. This is why I don't think it's that's challenging for most people to adapt. I think the biggest challenge is overcoming learned behaviour. Whenever, I play with an iPhone, I find myself reaching for a hard back button. Yet, I'm fine with an iPad...because I have no learned behaviour for a tablet, so I'm actually looking out for what I'm doing. I'm sure an iPhone user who plays with my phone will be looking for ye giant home button in everything they do.
In any event, the basic UI does remain consistent across phones. Android does work the same across phones and even versions. It's some of the features (Flash in 2.2 for example) and apps that might change as you go to different phones.
I'd agree that a little more consistency might help. But I have no issues with companies trying to build brand loyalty by trying to make their products better by adding exclusive features. Not really any different than Apple selling its ecosystem. The only thing is that Android actually allows you to stay in the ecosystem while switching brands.
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Originally Posted by solipsism
The original iPhone had 3 years of rich updates. Yet how many of the Android-based phones from just two years ago have version 2.3. I think one (maybe two) is shipping with 2.3. Hasn?t that been out on the Samsung Galaxy S since December?
I agree with this point. Though if you look at how far Android has come in two years, I'd suggest it's a good thing. If Android's hardware two years ago was predicated on running the software of today, the handsets would have been astronomically expensive. Conversely, if the software had to be backwards compatible for phones from two years ago, the software development cycle would have been severely limited. But, like I said earlier, with the software update cycle slowing down and hardware development catching up, this is likely to be less of an issue. I doubt the high end Androids you get today won't make it through two years of updates.
That said, hats off to Apple. Of course, when you do both, you can sync up the cycle better. But it also means things like leaving out video chat till the 4th generation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism
Again, consistency is key and Apple had iOS 4.0 for the new iPhone and the two previous years at the same time. Now, many iPhone 3G devices took ill with iOS 4.0 and that affected user trust with Apple?s update, but that?s a different issue with consistency.
That's not really 3 years of updates then, is it? If HTC tried to put Froyo on a G1 you'd be pointing and laughing and gleefully point out how the hardware wasn't built for it. But Apple puts out a bad update and it's a "different issue"? Gimme a break. The iPhone 3G shouldn't have gotten the update period. They tried to shoehorn an update in because they want to be able to say, "We give you updates."
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Originally Posted by solipsism
You really think the Sony Xperia X10 with Android 2.1 released last October shouldn?t get any furthr Android updates because Android is moving so fast? I?d love for you to tell an Xperia user that.
And that's why I didn't get an X10. ;-)
Again. It's upto consumers to penalize them. If I was an SE customer right now, I'd be hopping mad. And most certainly, I won't be buying an SE product for a long time...until they can show that they care about updates.
And the phone came out in March. Not October.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism
No it won?t. There will be even more devices using Android and they will be cheaper and cheaper devices using it. I suspect that even the dumbest phones on the market will eventually using Android en masse. The HW is advancing while getting cheaper and Android offers too many benefits to vendors to ignore. The issue will get worse.
Now for modern smartphones I think you have a point. I think those will get longer update cycles, but those won?t be the biggest market for Android, they?ll just be the flagship models from vendors.
I disagree. Yesterday's top of the line model is midrange today and low end tomorrow. And for most people that's good enough. I think at some point when it comes to the low end, we'll be hitting a fairly solid low end base spec. And that'll probably about the level of a Nexus One in a year. So I think you'll find in a year's time that the vast majority of phones are on 2.2 (the first real version that I think is decently usable for the average person) and that there's a nice steady distribution towards the newer version.
I think you'll even find the hardware for the low end come up. More capacitve, less resistive touch. Etc. And even the definition of low end will change. In North America, given our penchant for on-contract deals, the 'low-end' can be pretty deceiving.
In any event though, I find this debate a bit strange. I consider it a good thing that Android is enabling a lot of ordinary people who would normally not aspire to a smartphone, to be able to get one. The people who buy a $150 Huawei, are not customers who would normally consider an iPhone anyway. So really, if we're talking about Apple vs. Android in the smartphone contest, it should really be restricted to debate at the upper end....the handsets that are competitive with the iPhone.
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Originally Posted by solipsism
So you?re saying that all devices that run Android v2.2 can play the same apps? No. Angry Birds is a great example of how this is just not the case.
Did Angry Birds have issues running on 2.2 phones? I thought the issue was running on lower version handsets?
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism
Angry Birds is also a great example of how having a health number of apps and units with your OS by number isn?t necessarily a great if your cost for development is higher and your number of actual sales is lower. This is business, so some singled out metric does not prove profitability.
I really do believe the app sales issue will change. For three reason. First, there really wasn't a lot of good apps on Android until very recently. Nobody wants to pay for crap. Next, there's the issue of discoverability. Where's that web portal that Google promised? They are way behind here. Finally, there's the payment issue. Using only Google Checkout and now Paypal has its limitations. That and you can only buy paid apps in a handful of countries. When these issues are addressed, app sales will take off.
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Originally Posted by solipsism
I already stated this. I think I was clear about a user who has a 4 year old iPhone isn?t going to expect a new app to work as much as someone who has a new Android-based smartphone, and how Apple?s annual, in-line update system makes it easier for users. The Sony Xperia X10 is a prime example of this.
Again. I have never rushed out to state that Android is superior to iOS. I merely think it's not all that bad an alternative as some on here make it out to be. Maybe not for you. But it's obviously decent enough for millions of people out there. I think we can put to bed the argument we saw a few months ago that Android was only for techie geeks. There's obviously lots of regular people who find Android quite palatable.
Personally, I always advise people to try everything with an open mind and buy what works for them. For me, the key reasons I use Android: widgets, good integration with GMail, free navigation and most importantly let's me use the network I want (where for $40 I get unlimited north america wide talk and MMS, unlimited data, unlimited global texting). For me the iPhone is not even in contention till they are willing to offer it on the network I'm on. No way I'd see my bill rise to $100 for half the plan features. And after the network, if the iPhone matched those other features I would readily consider switching over. Heck, I actually do love the look of the iPhone 4 (never liked the previous versions that much though). It's always how I've thought a phone should look. But yeah, I have plenty of friends who pay triple digit bills to sport iPhones. Good for them I say. Somebody has to keep the Big 3 networks in business in Canada! I sure hope the iPhone user experience is good enough to overcome the restrictions on daytime minutes and the data caps.
iOs will never have as many applications, because Apple has a moral responsibility to curate their user's experience. There's plenty of porn on Android, so right there there's lots more Android software. But iOS software is much higher quality and has higher moral standards.
If people want porn, they can buy an Android phone. There?s a porn store for Android. You can download nothing but porn. You can download porn, and your kids can download porn. That's the reality of Android.
There's porn on the internet. You can download nothing but porn off the internet. You can download porn, and you kids can dowload porn off the internet. That's the reality of iOS. That's the reality of any internet connected device.
And there's no actual porn in the Android market. There are apparently apps for porn websites. But I fail to see how having the app is any better or worse than actually accessing the site on your browser....which if you have Flash is possible.
And that is what Steve Jobs was referring to (which somehow got twisted over time to Android = Porn). That line of thinking is a lot like saying dancing leads to sex. Just cause you have Flash, doesn't mean you'll surf porn. For example, I used Flash last summer with regularity to watch World Cup matches on my phone from the CBC website. And I suspect it's that flexibility which Jobs detests. Who needs an app when you can serve up video on the webpage using Flash? And if there's no apps, then there's really not much differentiating iOS from every other platform is there?
I think you make his case in your anecdotes. A couple things I didn?t care for was the inconsistency of cut/copy/paste and the way videos are played.
On the iPhone cut/copy/paste works the exact same way regardless of what app you are in. This was an issue with Android 2.1 and I don?t think it was resolved as of 2.3. Then there are playing videos and music. On the iPhone you simply go to the well known iPod app. I couldn?t figure out how to upload and play videos on the first Android phone I used.
Then there are vendors that cause inconsistencies for Android-based devices. Different UIs, different button configurations, etc, even within the same vendor across lateral models. With the iPhone it?s consistent. You have an annual HW and OS stepping, with the new model having a little more than the previous year with iOS support going back 3 years. This 3 years adds a certain level of peace of mind, though it?s probably out-of-sight/out-of-mind for most unless you have a fairly new Android phone and find out that it won?t be getting any future updates from your carrier/vendor. This 3 years of updates also helps with the value of the device which can significantly lower the TCO of that device.
Then there is a confusing system for users who want an app that works on their system. With the iPhone everything is <blank> or later. If you have that phone or a newer one you are fine. You have that version of iOS or a newer you are fine. Can?t do that when there are hundreds of handsets on the market for your OS. This is all apps, probably not even most, but it?s enough that it can be frustrating for the user.
Cut/Copy/Paste works exactly the same way in all app in data entry fields. There is no cut/copy/paste in text. BTW, I find it incredibly annoying on the iPad that a slight movement of my finger on text starts selecting text. You might say that having cut/copy/paste work on text is better and I'd agree. But there is no inconsistency there.
I have said this plenty of times and I'll repeat - I find iTunes to be an absolute piece of crap. It's not a plus, but a severe negative in my book. I bought my iPad apps using the app store on the iPad.
Although I have been using the iPod for close to a decade now, I found the music player in my iPod Touch to be less usable than the one in my Samsung Vibrant. I just sold my iPod Touch, so I can't get into the specifics. But I recall playing music in shuffle mode and then getting information on some song took me to a screen with songs from the album and then it switched to playing songs only on that album.
I simply can't get go back to not having the search button or the back button or the menu button. I don't see why long press and menu is confusing? Long Press is the context sensitive button (button 2 of the mouse). Menu is the menu bar. Sometimes I find myself looking at strange icons on some iPhone app trying to figure out what it does. The Menu button shows me text. When I have to go back to my previous screen - and it could be from a completely different app (thanks to Intents and Activities), I always have the same back button for navigation. On iPhones, I have to always hunt around to find it. In most apps thankfully, it's on the top left. But not all apps. Again, inconsistency.
Add to this, replacement keyboards like Swype and SwiftKey, Notification bar, widgets, Gesture search for lookup using the more intuitive drawing on screens as opposed to scrolling up and down in inertial lists, I find the Android UX far superior to the iPhone one. But then, I'm a power user.
I certainly won't deny that overall, iPhone apps are much much more consistent and so it the OS. But I'm not convinced that the gap is all that big. At least certainly not enough for anyone to say Android's complicated.
As far as lack of OS upgrades is concerned, that is mostly chaffing for more knowledgeable users. Most users couldn't care less. They use the phone with the apps that came with it. When they go to the Market, they see only the apps that run on their phone. I don't why so many people on this site think that you download apps and then find that they don't run on your phone. In two years that I have been using the Android, I have yet to download an app that doesn't work on my phone (apart from a bug of course).
I don't follow why the fact that the 4 keys are in different positions is an issue for someone getting a new phone. Once you have a new phone, you typically stay with it at least for a few months and if you switch from one Android phone to another, it might take a few minutes to use it. But that is the beauty of Android since you discover something new, something great because another manufacturer has found a better way to do something. At least I presume that's why one went and got another phone anyway.
I have used both the iPhone and now 3 Android phones. And for me, there is no comparison, I can never go back to an iPhone. I no longer have the iPod Touch. I may get another one or just go with an EVO as a multimedia device (I can get one for $200). I still have the iPad. But I hardly ever use. It's just too crippled for me. I haven't yet found a replacement for it though and it serves my need for transferring photos when I'm out of town and until something better comes along, I'll use it for that purpose.
What I'm getting at is that, I use Apple products as well as Android and I'm undoubtedly biased towards Android now. For me, it just works :-)
I?m curious to know why you think it?s valid to compare a single device to an operating system. I find it hard that anyone on this forum is unable to understand the logistical differences between a free OS licensed to any manufacture and one that only comes with the HW from one manufacture.
Much as I am concerned, I am considering them smartphone platforms, thus iPhones (or iOS phones) vs. Android phones.
iPads and iPods, while using same OS, are not phones. Likewise, I wouldn't consider emerging Android tablets into this specific comparison.
And I wouldn't call iPhone single phone either. 3Gs is still being sold, and there are 3G units still in use. Plus some of them have 6, 16, 32GB variants... Memory, screen and rest of hardware differences between 3G, 3Gs and 4 options are not much smaller/different than Android phones differences.
True there are still less variations in iPhone offer than in Android phone offer, but it still isn't ONE phone (though it is one brand). I would also expect that iPhone 4 (or maybe still iPhone 3Gs) is the best selling single model on the market, but as a smartphone platform marketshare, iPhone is loosing this "war".
True there are still less variations in iPhone offer than in Android phone offer, but it still isn't ONE phone (though it is one brand). I would also expect that iPhone 4 (or maybe still iPhone 3Gs) is the best selling single model on the market, but as a smartphone platform marketshare, iPhone is loosing this "war".
But likely still making the most money even as it "loses".
Much as I am concerned, I am considering them smartphone platforms, thus iPhones (or iOS phones) vs. Android phones.
iPads and iPods, while using same OS, are not phones. Likewise, I wouldn't consider emerging Android tablets into this specific comparison.
And I wouldn't call iPhone single phone either. 3Gs is still being sold, and there are 3G units still in use. Plus some of them have 6, 16, 32GB variants... Memory, screen and rest of hardware differences between 3G, 3Gs and 4 options are not much smaller/different than Android phones differences.
True there are still less variations in iPhone offer than in Android phone offer, but it still isn't ONE phone (though it is one brand). I would also expect that iPhone 4 (or maybe still iPhone 3Gs) is the best selling single model on the market, but as a smartphone platform marketshare, iPhone is loosing this "war".
1) Those are models within the iPhone product. Some unilaterally, others upgrades, but they are still the iPhone product from ONE vendor.
2) You mention the NAND capacity but that doesn?t affect the iOS for the model. All iPhone 4 models get the same version of iOS. All iPhone 3GS models, etc.
3) Again, why compare the iPhone to Android OS? What is the reason for wanting to compare mobile OS platforms that makes the exclusion of the iPod Touch a requirement?
In other news sales of Aston martin have been surpassed by fiat. Funny thing is that Aston martin's profit margin appears to be higher...
Ps. If we are talking os, do these figures include all iOS installs including iPad iPod touch and iPhone?
Irrespective, Market share does not equal success, quality or profitability. Popular is not defined by the number of products given away or cheaply available, massive Market share normally means an affordable or compromise product. The popular choice is what you aspire to own.
Sine when have apple equated success with Market share, and since when does larger Market share reflect succes, quality or user experience?
That is one very wrong comparison. While AM's profit margin should be much higher than Fiat's, AM was more than once in financial troubles and was purchased by Ford just to be sold a few years later (not being profitable enough?). On the other hand, cheap Fiat Group automotive companies include Ferrari, Maserati, Abarth, Alfa Romeo Automobiles, Lancia Automobiles... among the others.
Honestly, I'd rather be Fiat. There's nothing wrong with their Ferraris.
But likely still making the most money even as it "loses".
No one is arguing that. I can't recall anyone said Apple is doomed because Android phones are selling more. You don't need to have major market share to be successful luxury brand.
1) Those are models within the iPhone product. Some unilaterally, others upgrades, but they are still the iPhone product from ONE vendor.
You are talking about smartphone brands. I am talking about smartphone platforms.
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2) You mention the NAND capacity but that doesn?t affect the iOS for the model. All iPhone 4 models get the same version of iOS. All iPhone 3GS models, etc.
I am talking about NAND capacity, different screen resolutions, different CPU/GPU. It is true you can force one iOS on most them (though barely on 3G and not at all on 2G, I think?) but one phone they are not. One brand (and one platform), on the other hand, they are.
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3) Again, why compare the iPhone to Android OS? What is the reason for wanting to compare mobile OS platforms that makes the exclusion of the iPod Touch a requirement?
I see it like comparing passenger cars with diesel engines and passenger cars with petrol engines. Someone might rise a hand and say "well why don't we count petrol motorbikes as well - they are using same (technology) engines like petrol cars. True we can compare engine technologies which should involve motorbikes (but also diesel trucks and locomotives etc.) but if we are comparing passenger cars with diesel and petrol engines, we have a bit tighter focus and we cannot include bikes and other vehicles/machines with petrol or diesel engines. Likewise, I don't mind comparing mobile OS platforms as well... but here we are comparing smartphone platforms. iOS is one smartphone platform. Android is the other.
No one is arguing that. I can't recall anyone said Apple is doomed because Android phones are selling more. You don't need to have major market share to be successful luxury brand.
Glad you understand that because there are plenty of others around here who seem to think that Android having greater marketshare somehow dooms Apple and iPhone.
We've deviated from my original point of debate into the generic Android vs. iOS back and forth.
My original point was that competition was good and I personally see that evidenced by how much of a leap the iPhone 4/iOS4 is over the iPhone3GS/iOS3 was.
You are free to disagree, of course. But I do feel that Apple is susceptible to competitive pressures and that Android breathing down its neck helps both Android (which feels a constant pressure to catch up) and Apple (which must work hard to stay in the lead). In the end, this is good for us, the consumers.
Like I said earlier, to each his own. For a desktop, I love my Mac. For a mobile, I like Android. I'm still deciding which way to go on the tablet front. I want to see what iPad 2 has to offer before I commit to anything. I would hope that most people approach things this way instead of blindly committing to one brand for everything. But again, to each his own.
I think there's certainly evidence there that Google is aware of Android's UX flaws and I expect they'll be working to fix them. Especially with this guy in the driver's seat.
Actually, it's an apt comparison. Not in the way he/she intended though. Android is exactly like Fiat. They have something for everybody. From the lowly Fiat 500 to a stable full of Ferraris and everything in between. And that's the point. Something for everybody.
Apple is less Aston Martin and more like BMW. Solid, reliable and exceptionally well performing machines. They sell well and make the company lots of profit. But there is an entry threshold.
The big question is whether this will hold true or whether this is where Apple wants to be. People seem to cite this model often (Apple as high price, high margin, the competition as low price, low margin). Yet, Apple does everything in its power to get carriers to sell the iPhone as cheaply as other handsets. And remember how much people expected them to sell the iPad for? And the shock when then price was announced? Apple still has the best margins in the business. But they aren't the high priced distributor that they are in the computing game.
I am skeptical whether Apple doesn't want at least some magical threshold of market share. For one, market share is essential to the viability of the platform in the mobile space. Nobody's going to make apps for you, if your platform isn't popular. And with the iPhone being a giant app launcher, that's a big deal.
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I think you make his case in your anecdotes. A couple things I didn?t care for was the inconsistency of cut/copy/paste and the way videos are played.
On the iPhone cut/copy/paste works the exact same way regardless of what app you are in. This was an issue with Android 2.1 and I don?t think it was resolved as of 2.3.
Can you be more specific? Or give me an example. I never found cut/copy/paste work differently across apps on my Nexus One with 2.2. I am genuinely curious to find this inconsistency you're referring to.
Then there are playing videos and music. On the iPhone you simply go to the well known iPod app. I couldn?t figure out how to upload and play videos on the first Android phone I used.
Drag and drop on the computer through USB drive. And all videos (which are visual media) show up in the gallery. Click on them and they play. What's so hard about that?
I chalk this one up to the fact that you are coming from iOS where you are used to thinking of having video and music in one player whereas Android groups visual media (pictures and movies) in one place (the gallery) and puts music in another place. And this is why I always wonder about complaints about "useability". I seriously wonder sometimes if just the fact that you are used to doing it one way and when you go to a system that does it differently, you automatically feel that the new way of doing things is inferior. Learned behaviour makes it very uncomfortable for you to learn something new.
Then there are vendors that cause inconsistencies for Android-based devices. Different UIs, different button configurations, etc, even within the same vendor across lateral models.
Another overblown complaint. I just played my roomie's new Captivate. I use a Nexus One. I had no issues figuring out his handset. He had a few apps that were different. But the core apps were the same and the phone absolutely worked the same way. I am starting to think that people just regurgitate these complaints. Before you repeat this stuff ad nauseam, why don't you actually play with a few different Android phones (and for more than a minute each). You'll quickly see how complaints about 'UI fragmentation' are vastly overblown....and basically irrelevant, since people don't keep switching handsets daily.
As for different buttons configurations....if somebody can't figure out 4 main buttons (home, search, menu, back) which hardly yield that many different configurations, then they shouldn't be using a smartphone period. Does it take a minute to get used to buttons being a different spot? Yes. Does it matter much? Not really. You'll get used to the phone and then it really won't matter after the first minute or so.
With the iPhone it?s consistent. You have an annual HW and OS stepping, with the new model having a little more than the previous year with iOS support going back 3 years. This 3 years adds a certain level of peace of mind, though it?s probably out-of-sight/out-of-mind for most unless you have a fairly new Android phone and find out that it won?t be getting any future updates from your carrier/vendor. This 3 years of updates also helps with the value of the device which can significantly lower the TCO of that device.
This is one area I will give you. The management of updates has to improve on Android. That said, it's not bad for an OS that's only been around 2 years and only taken off in the last one. And I am sure consumers will learn to reward the OEMs that do their best to push updates forward.
Sometimes though, it does make sense to cut off updates. How many iPhone 3G owners really liked iOS 4? And how much restrictions did Apple slap on to make it work on the 3G? Would they have been better off without the updates? Just because you get 3 years of support doesn't always mean it makes sense to give 3 years of updates (especially when the hardware can't support it). The unfortunate part for Android is that the platform advances so rapdily (particularly in the last year) that it's inevitable that some handsets will get left behind. With the update cycle slowing down, I think things will improve markedly. Just look at the version numbers and how quickly Android 2.2 was adopted. Fragmentation will become less and less of an issue over time.
Then there is a confusing system for users who want an app that works on their system. With the iPhone everything is <blank> or later.
That's quite an assumption. So people who have the original iPhone will have all apps designed for iOS4 work on their phone?
If you have that phone or a newer one you are fine. You have that version of iOS or a newer you are fine. Can?t do that when there are hundreds of handsets on the market for your OS. This is all apps, probably not even most, but it?s enough that it can be frustrating for the user.
It's not the number of handsets on the OS that matters. It's the version you are on. The market automatically checks which apps work with your phone OS version and only shows you those. How is this very challenging or frustrating?
Now if you are suggesting that every Android owner should be able to download any and every app, I'd ask you how this is any different than suggesting that an iPhone 2G or iPhone 3G owner should be allowed to download apps optimized for iOS 4.
Can you be more specific? Or give me an example. I never found cut/copy/paste work differently across apps on my Nexus One with 2.2. I am genuinely curious to find this inconsistency you're referring to.
I recall not being able to do any copy/paste in Gmail and in other apps. I recall inconsistencies with the way you select in the browser. For instance, not being able to select and copy text unless it was a text box or first choosing Menu » More » Select instead of the press and hold method already present. How can you suggest that is a consistent method?
Drag and drop on the computer through USB drive. And all videos (which are visual media) show up in the gallery. Click on them and they play. What's so hard about that?
That method worked out so well for the PMP market that even at reduced prices the iPod was able to monopolized the market. BTW, the idea that the way to find all videos are in the Gallery is absurd. That is not a good name for your PMP media.
I chalk this one up to the fact that you are coming from iOS where you are used to thinking of having video and music in one player whereas Android groups visual media (pictures and movies) in one place (the gallery) and puts music in another place. And this is why I always wonder about complaints about "useability". I seriously wonder sometimes if just the fact that you are used to doing it one way and when you go to a system that does it differently, you automatically feel that the new way of doing things is inferior. Learned behaviour makes it very uncomfortable for you to learn something new.
Android groups are a lot newer and smaller than iPod groups. Again, Apple won the PMP market because of the iTunes ecosystem, not because their HW was any better or cheaper. Having to mount as USB drive, then drag and drop items into the Gallery folder is not user friendly. The problem with hardcore Android users is they think options equals freedom equals better but most people want a device that simply works. There is a reason lumberjacks don?t use a Swiss Army Knife to fell trees. ?But it has a saw and all these other tools. You?re saw is only one tool.? See how silly that sounds? The best tool for the job is usually the one that works best, not the one with the most options.
Another overblown complaint. I just played my roomie's new Captivate. I use a Nexus One. I had no issues figuring out his handset. He had a few apps that were different. But the core apps were the same and the phone absolutely worked the same way. I am starting to think that people just regurgitate these complaints. Before you repeat this stuff ad nauseam, why don't you actually play with a few different Android phones (and for more than a minute each). You'll quickly see how complaints about 'UI fragmentation' are vastly overblown....and basically irrelevant, since people don't keep switching handsets daily.
As for different buttons configurations....if somebody can't figure out 4 main buttons (home, search, menu, back) which hardly yield that many different configurations, then they shouldn't be using a smartphone period. Does it take a minute to get used to buttons being a different spot? Yes. Does it matter much? Not really. You'll get used to the phone and then it really won't matter after the first minute or so.
Usability has no barring on how quickly you can adapt. Most people aren?t quick to adapt to change. I don?t think a different button order or a different UI is a big deal and I?ll judge each independently for their pros and cons, but we?re not the masses. Being a member of a tech site pretty much excludes from that. Consistency offers peace of mind. That is good business.
This is one area I will give you. The management of updates has to improve on Android. That said, it's not bad for an OS that's only been around 2 years and only taken off in the last one. And I am sure consumers will learn to reward the OEMs that do their best to push updates forward.
The original iPhone had 3 years of rich updates. Yet how many of the Android-based phones from just two years ago have version 2.3. I think one (maybe two) is shipping with 2.3. Hasn?t that been out on the Samsung Galaxy S since December? Again, consistency is key and Apple had iOS 4.0 for the new iPhone and the two previous years at the same time. Now, many iPhone 3G devices took ill with iOS 4.0 and that affected user trust with Apple?s update, but that?s a different issue with consistency.
The unfortunate part for Android is that the platform advances so rapdily (particularly in the last year) that it's inevitable that some handsets will get left behind.
You really think the Sony Xperia X10 with Android 2.1 released last October shouldn?t get any furthr Android updates because Android is moving so fast?
With the update cycle slowing down, I think things will improve markedly. Just look at the version numbers and how quickly Android 2.2 was adopted. Fragmentation will become less and less of an issue over time.
No it won?t. There will be even more devices using Android and they will be cheaper and cheaper devices using it. I suspect that even the dumbest phones on the market will eventually using Android en masse. The HW is advancing while getting cheaper and Android offers too many benefits to vendors to ignore. The issue will get worse.
Now for modern smartphones I think you have a point. I think those will get longer update cycles, but those won?t be the biggest market for Android, they?ll just be the flagship models from vendors.
That's quite an assumption. So people who have the original iPhone will have all apps designed for iOS4 work on their phone?
Do you not realize the original iPhone doesn?t have iOS 4.0? Perhaps you misunderstood that ?or later? means newer, not older. I can see how that could be ambiguous if the context was missed.
It's not the number of handsets on the OS that matters. It's the version you are on. The market automatically checks which apps work with your phone OS version and only shows you those. How is this very challenging or frustrating?
So you?re saying that all devices that run Android v2.2 can play the same apps? No. Angry Birds is a great example of how this is just not the case. Angry Birds is also a great example of how having a health number of apps and units with your OS by number isn?t necessarily a great if your cost for development is higher and your number of actual sales is lower. This is business, so some singled out metric does not prove profitability.
Now if you are suggesting that every Android owner should be able to download any and every app, I'd ask you how this is any different than suggesting that an iPhone 2G or iPhone 3G owner should be allowed to download apps optimized for iOS 4.
I already stated this. I think I was clear about a user who has a 4 year old iPhone isn?t going to expect a new app to work as much as someone who has a new Android-based smartphone, and how Apple?s annual, in-line update system makes it easier for users. The Sony Xperia X10 is a prime example of this.
I know that Android 3.0 is advertised as being the first tablet-ready version of Android. I am also assuming that Android v3 will become available for Android phones. Does anyone know if any existing Android phones will be upgradable to v3?
This is a bit off-topic but is meant as a serious inquiry.
I know that Android 3.0 is advertised as being the first tablet-ready version of Android. I am also assuming that Android v3 will become available for Android phones. Does anyone know if any existing Android phones will be upgradable to v3?
That?s a good question. Most phones I saw were going to be shipped with Android v2.2 and I can?t recall any mention of Android 3.0 coming to those phones and only a little mention of 2.3. Google promo ad said it was designed for tablets. That tells me that phones will come later. I don?t even recall a due date for Honeycomb.
That?s a good question. Most phones I saw were going to be shipped with Android v2.2 and I can?t recall any mention of Android 3.0 coming to those phones and only a little mention of 2.3. Google promo ad said it was designed for tablets. That tells me that phones will come later. I don?t even recall a due date for Honeycomb.
The Motorola XOOM is supposed to run Honeycomb as I recall. Really makes you wonder how close they are to a real product. I'm guessing we will see Honeycomb in March or April.
Does anyone know if any existing Android phones will be upgradable to v3?
Will be upgradeable o will be upgraded?
As far as I know, anything like or above Nexus One can be upgraded to Honeycomb
iOs will never have as many applications, because Apple has a moral responsibility to curate their user's experience. There's plenty of porn on Android, so right there there's lots more Android software. But iOS software is much higher quality and has higher moral standards.
If people want porn, they can buy an Android phone. There?s a porn store for Android. You can download nothing but porn. You can download porn, and your kids can download porn. That's the reality of Android.
Android Market has NO porn.
I recall not being able to do any copy/paste in Gmail and in other apps. I recall inconsistencies with the way you select in the browser. For instance, not being able to select and copy text unless it was a text box or first choosing Menu » More » Select instead of the press and hold method already present. How can you suggest that is a consistent method?
Seems consistent to me. You're always using the same method to copy and paste. One for text boxes. One for the browser (which is kinda like how you would select text on a desktop browser). The issue is that there's no copy/paste for other apps (Just gmail) as of now.
That method worked out so well for the PMP market that even at reduced prices the iPod was able to monopolized the market.
You know as well as I do that it was the clickwheel and the iTMS that helped sell iPods. How videos were put on had very little to do with it. Most people (except hardcore Apple fans) fine iTunes to be a pain in the six.
And it's literally drag and drop. You don't even have to pick a folder. Just drop onto the drive.
BTW, the idea that the way to find all videos are in the Gallery is absurd. That is not a good name for your PMP media.
I disagree. Again, I think it's an issue of what you are used to. If you had never used an iPhone, then you wouldn't think this strange. Not just that...Android doesn't have a media app a la iTunes. The music player is surprisingly called....Music. You would expect it to play music and not videos.
Android groups are a lot newer and smaller than iPod groups. Again, Apple won the PMP market because of the iTunes ecosystem, not because their HW was any better or cheaper.
Right. So quit suggesting that how you put the video on the device helped the iPod win the PMP war. That's just absurd.
Having to mount as USB drive, then drag and drop items into the Gallery folder is not user friendly.
That's your opinion. There's tons of folks and everyday users that find iTunes a pain. They'd find drag and drop fairly sensible. Different strokes for different folks.
The problem with hardcore Android users is they think options equals freedom equals better but most people want a device that simply works.
And the problem with Apple fans is that they think the only right way is the Apple way. Their blinders are so thick that they can conceive that people might not think the Apple way is the best.
Do you use iTunes to load up your USB stick? Why would loading up your phone be any more or less challenging? You don't have to sort out folders or anything. You literally just drop whatever you want onto the phone and the players finds it for you.
And what the hell does this have to do with "options" and "freedom". We're just discussing how something works. Why do you insist or resorting to generic anti-Android crap every second paragraph?
There is a reason lumberjacks don?t use a Swiss Army Knife to fell trees. ?But it has a saw and all these other tools. You?re saw is only one tool.? See how silly that sounds?
About as silly as bringing lumberjacks into a discussion about how a piece of technology works....
Usability has no barring on how quickly you can adapt.
Actually it does. Something that's easier to learn is easier to adapt to. Work a job that's high stress and/or involves high man-machine interactions and you'll see this. Certainly in my line of work (the aerospace sector) we see improved UI in the cockpits drastically improving aircrew training (shortening training times, improving safety, etc.).
Most people aren?t quick to adapt to change. I don?t think a different button order or a different UI is a big deal and I?ll judge each independently for their pros and cons, but we?re not the masses. Being a member of a tech site pretty much excludes from that. Consistency offers peace of mind. That is good business.
At the end of the day, it's a smartphone, not a new way to drive a car. I think you misjudge people's ability to adapt. Most touchcreen phones have basically the same gestures for most functions. And most folks rarely get to any serious depth beyond very basic app use....read on browser, navigate on maps, send and receive texts and emails, use a few other apps. I am even going to suggest for example that most smartphone users rarely use features like copy/paste...this is why it wasn't a big deal when the iPhone didn't have it. This is why I don't think it's that's challenging for most people to adapt. I think the biggest challenge is overcoming learned behaviour. Whenever, I play with an iPhone, I find myself reaching for a hard back button. Yet, I'm fine with an iPad...because I have no learned behaviour for a tablet, so I'm actually looking out for what I'm doing. I'm sure an iPhone user who plays with my phone will be looking for ye giant home button in everything they do.
In any event, the basic UI does remain consistent across phones. Android does work the same across phones and even versions. It's some of the features (Flash in 2.2 for example) and apps that might change as you go to different phones.
I'd agree that a little more consistency might help. But I have no issues with companies trying to build brand loyalty by trying to make their products better by adding exclusive features. Not really any different than Apple selling its ecosystem. The only thing is that Android actually allows you to stay in the ecosystem while switching brands.
The original iPhone had 3 years of rich updates. Yet how many of the Android-based phones from just two years ago have version 2.3. I think one (maybe two) is shipping with 2.3. Hasn?t that been out on the Samsung Galaxy S since December?
I agree with this point. Though if you look at how far Android has come in two years, I'd suggest it's a good thing. If Android's hardware two years ago was predicated on running the software of today, the handsets would have been astronomically expensive. Conversely, if the software had to be backwards compatible for phones from two years ago, the software development cycle would have been severely limited. But, like I said earlier, with the software update cycle slowing down and hardware development catching up, this is likely to be less of an issue. I doubt the high end Androids you get today won't make it through two years of updates.
That said, hats off to Apple. Of course, when you do both, you can sync up the cycle better. But it also means things like leaving out video chat till the 4th generation.
Again, consistency is key and Apple had iOS 4.0 for the new iPhone and the two previous years at the same time. Now, many iPhone 3G devices took ill with iOS 4.0 and that affected user trust with Apple?s update, but that?s a different issue with consistency.
That's not really 3 years of updates then, is it? If HTC tried to put Froyo on a G1 you'd be pointing and laughing and gleefully point out how the hardware wasn't built for it. But Apple puts out a bad update and it's a "different issue"? Gimme a break. The iPhone 3G shouldn't have gotten the update period. They tried to shoehorn an update in because they want to be able to say, "We give you updates."
You really think the Sony Xperia X10 with Android 2.1 released last October shouldn?t get any furthr Android updates because Android is moving so fast?
And that's why I didn't get an X10. ;-)
Again. It's upto consumers to penalize them. If I was an SE customer right now, I'd be hopping mad. And most certainly, I won't be buying an SE product for a long time...until they can show that they care about updates.
And the phone came out in March. Not October.
No it won?t. There will be even more devices using Android and they will be cheaper and cheaper devices using it. I suspect that even the dumbest phones on the market will eventually using Android en masse. The HW is advancing while getting cheaper and Android offers too many benefits to vendors to ignore. The issue will get worse.
Now for modern smartphones I think you have a point. I think those will get longer update cycles, but those won?t be the biggest market for Android, they?ll just be the flagship models from vendors.
I disagree. Yesterday's top of the line model is midrange today and low end tomorrow. And for most people that's good enough. I think at some point when it comes to the low end, we'll be hitting a fairly solid low end base spec. And that'll probably about the level of a Nexus One in a year. So I think you'll find in a year's time that the vast majority of phones are on 2.2 (the first real version that I think is decently usable for the average person) and that there's a nice steady distribution towards the newer version.
I think you'll even find the hardware for the low end come up. More capacitve, less resistive touch. Etc. And even the definition of low end will change. In North America, given our penchant for on-contract deals, the 'low-end' can be pretty deceiving.
In any event though, I find this debate a bit strange. I consider it a good thing that Android is enabling a lot of ordinary people who would normally not aspire to a smartphone, to be able to get one. The people who buy a $150 Huawei, are not customers who would normally consider an iPhone anyway. So really, if we're talking about Apple vs. Android in the smartphone contest, it should really be restricted to debate at the upper end....the handsets that are competitive with the iPhone.
So you?re saying that all devices that run Android v2.2 can play the same apps? No. Angry Birds is a great example of how this is just not the case.
Did Angry Birds have issues running on 2.2 phones? I thought the issue was running on lower version handsets?
Angry Birds is also a great example of how having a health number of apps and units with your OS by number isn?t necessarily a great if your cost for development is higher and your number of actual sales is lower. This is business, so some singled out metric does not prove profitability.
I really do believe the app sales issue will change. For three reason. First, there really wasn't a lot of good apps on Android until very recently. Nobody wants to pay for crap. Next, there's the issue of discoverability. Where's that web portal that Google promised? They are way behind here. Finally, there's the payment issue. Using only Google Checkout and now Paypal has its limitations. That and you can only buy paid apps in a handful of countries. When these issues are addressed, app sales will take off.
I already stated this. I think I was clear about a user who has a 4 year old iPhone isn?t going to expect a new app to work as much as someone who has a new Android-based smartphone, and how Apple?s annual, in-line update system makes it easier for users. The Sony Xperia X10 is a prime example of this.
Again. I have never rushed out to state that Android is superior to iOS. I merely think it's not all that bad an alternative as some on here make it out to be. Maybe not for you. But it's obviously decent enough for millions of people out there. I think we can put to bed the argument we saw a few months ago that Android was only for techie geeks. There's obviously lots of regular people who find Android quite palatable.
Personally, I always advise people to try everything with an open mind and buy what works for them. For me, the key reasons I use Android: widgets, good integration with GMail, free navigation and most importantly let's me use the network I want (where for $40 I get unlimited north america wide talk and MMS, unlimited data, unlimited global texting). For me the iPhone is not even in contention till they are willing to offer it on the network I'm on. No way I'd see my bill rise to $100 for half the plan features. And after the network, if the iPhone matched those other features I would readily consider switching over. Heck, I actually do love the look of the iPhone 4 (never liked the previous versions that much though). It's always how I've thought a phone should look. But yeah, I have plenty of friends who pay triple digit bills to sport iPhones. Good for them I say. Somebody has to keep the Big 3 networks in business in Canada! I sure hope the iPhone user experience is good enough to overcome the restrictions on daytime minutes and the data caps.
iOs will never have as many applications, because Apple has a moral responsibility to curate their user's experience. There's plenty of porn on Android, so right there there's lots more Android software. But iOS software is much higher quality and has higher moral standards.
If people want porn, they can buy an Android phone. There?s a porn store for Android. You can download nothing but porn. You can download porn, and your kids can download porn. That's the reality of Android.
There's porn on the internet. You can download nothing but porn off the internet. You can download porn, and you kids can dowload porn off the internet. That's the reality of iOS. That's the reality of any internet connected device.
And there's no actual porn in the Android market. There are apparently apps for porn websites. But I fail to see how having the app is any better or worse than actually accessing the site on your browser....which if you have Flash is possible.
And that is what Steve Jobs was referring to (which somehow got twisted over time to Android = Porn). That line of thinking is a lot like saying dancing leads to sex. Just cause you have Flash, doesn't mean you'll surf porn. For example, I used Flash last summer with regularity to watch World Cup matches on my phone from the CBC website. And I suspect it's that flexibility which Jobs detests. Who needs an app when you can serve up video on the webpage using Flash? And if there's no apps, then there's really not much differentiating iOS from every other platform is there?
I think you make his case in your anecdotes. A couple things I didn?t care for was the inconsistency of cut/copy/paste and the way videos are played.
On the iPhone cut/copy/paste works the exact same way regardless of what app you are in. This was an issue with Android 2.1 and I don?t think it was resolved as of 2.3. Then there are playing videos and music. On the iPhone you simply go to the well known iPod app. I couldn?t figure out how to upload and play videos on the first Android phone I used.
Then there are vendors that cause inconsistencies for Android-based devices. Different UIs, different button configurations, etc, even within the same vendor across lateral models. With the iPhone it?s consistent. You have an annual HW and OS stepping, with the new model having a little more than the previous year with iOS support going back 3 years. This 3 years adds a certain level of peace of mind, though it?s probably out-of-sight/out-of-mind for most unless you have a fairly new Android phone and find out that it won?t be getting any future updates from your carrier/vendor. This 3 years of updates also helps with the value of the device which can significantly lower the TCO of that device.
Then there is a confusing system for users who want an app that works on their system. With the iPhone everything is <blank> or later. If you have that phone or a newer one you are fine. You have that version of iOS or a newer you are fine. Can?t do that when there are hundreds of handsets on the market for your OS. This is all apps, probably not even most, but it?s enough that it can be frustrating for the user.
Cut/Copy/Paste works exactly the same way in all app in data entry fields. There is no cut/copy/paste in text. BTW, I find it incredibly annoying on the iPad that a slight movement of my finger on text starts selecting text. You might say that having cut/copy/paste work on text is better and I'd agree. But there is no inconsistency there.
I have said this plenty of times and I'll repeat - I find iTunes to be an absolute piece of crap. It's not a plus, but a severe negative in my book. I bought my iPad apps using the app store on the iPad.
Although I have been using the iPod for close to a decade now, I found the music player in my iPod Touch to be less usable than the one in my Samsung Vibrant. I just sold my iPod Touch, so I can't get into the specifics. But I recall playing music in shuffle mode and then getting information on some song took me to a screen with songs from the album and then it switched to playing songs only on that album.
I simply can't get go back to not having the search button or the back button or the menu button. I don't see why long press and menu is confusing? Long Press is the context sensitive button (button 2 of the mouse). Menu is the menu bar. Sometimes I find myself looking at strange icons on some iPhone app trying to figure out what it does. The Menu button shows me text. When I have to go back to my previous screen - and it could be from a completely different app (thanks to Intents and Activities), I always have the same back button for navigation. On iPhones, I have to always hunt around to find it. In most apps thankfully, it's on the top left. But not all apps. Again, inconsistency.
Add to this, replacement keyboards like Swype and SwiftKey, Notification bar, widgets, Gesture search for lookup using the more intuitive drawing on screens as opposed to scrolling up and down in inertial lists, I find the Android UX far superior to the iPhone one. But then, I'm a power user.
I certainly won't deny that overall, iPhone apps are much much more consistent and so it the OS. But I'm not convinced that the gap is all that big. At least certainly not enough for anyone to say Android's complicated.
As far as lack of OS upgrades is concerned, that is mostly chaffing for more knowledgeable users. Most users couldn't care less. They use the phone with the apps that came with it. When they go to the Market, they see only the apps that run on their phone. I don't why so many people on this site think that you download apps and then find that they don't run on your phone. In two years that I have been using the Android, I have yet to download an app that doesn't work on my phone (apart from a bug of course).
I don't follow why the fact that the 4 keys are in different positions is an issue for someone getting a new phone. Once you have a new phone, you typically stay with it at least for a few months and if you switch from one Android phone to another, it might take a few minutes to use it. But that is the beauty of Android since you discover something new, something great because another manufacturer has found a better way to do something. At least I presume that's why one went and got another phone anyway.
I have used both the iPhone and now 3 Android phones. And for me, there is no comparison, I can never go back to an iPhone. I no longer have the iPod Touch. I may get another one or just go with an EVO as a multimedia device (I can get one for $200). I still have the iPad. But I hardly ever use. It's just too crippled for me. I haven't yet found a replacement for it though and it serves my need for transferring photos when I'm out of town and until something better comes along, I'll use it for that purpose.
What I'm getting at is that, I use Apple products as well as Android and I'm undoubtedly biased towards Android now. For me, it just works :-)
I?m curious to know why you think it?s valid to compare a single device to an operating system. I find it hard that anyone on this forum is unable to understand the logistical differences between a free OS licensed to any manufacture and one that only comes with the HW from one manufacture.
Much as I am concerned, I am considering them smartphone platforms, thus iPhones (or iOS phones) vs. Android phones.
iPads and iPods, while using same OS, are not phones. Likewise, I wouldn't consider emerging Android tablets into this specific comparison.
And I wouldn't call iPhone single phone either. 3Gs is still being sold, and there are 3G units still in use. Plus some of them have 6, 16, 32GB variants... Memory, screen and rest of hardware differences between 3G, 3Gs and 4 options are not much smaller/different than Android phones differences.
True there are still less variations in iPhone offer than in Android phone offer, but it still isn't ONE phone (though it is one brand). I would also expect that iPhone 4 (or maybe still iPhone 3Gs) is the best selling single model on the market, but as a smartphone platform marketshare, iPhone is loosing this "war".
True there are still less variations in iPhone offer than in Android phone offer, but it still isn't ONE phone (though it is one brand). I would also expect that iPhone 4 (or maybe still iPhone 3Gs) is the best selling single model on the market, but as a smartphone platform marketshare, iPhone is loosing this "war".
But likely still making the most money even as it "loses".
Much as I am concerned, I am considering them smartphone platforms, thus iPhones (or iOS phones) vs. Android phones.
iPads and iPods, while using same OS, are not phones. Likewise, I wouldn't consider emerging Android tablets into this specific comparison.
And I wouldn't call iPhone single phone either. 3Gs is still being sold, and there are 3G units still in use. Plus some of them have 6, 16, 32GB variants... Memory, screen and rest of hardware differences between 3G, 3Gs and 4 options are not much smaller/different than Android phones differences.
True there are still less variations in iPhone offer than in Android phone offer, but it still isn't ONE phone (though it is one brand). I would also expect that iPhone 4 (or maybe still iPhone 3Gs) is the best selling single model on the market, but as a smartphone platform marketshare, iPhone is loosing this "war".
1) Those are models within the iPhone product. Some unilaterally, others upgrades, but they are still the iPhone product from ONE vendor.
2) You mention the NAND capacity but that doesn?t affect the iOS for the model. All iPhone 4 models get the same version of iOS. All iPhone 3GS models, etc.
3) Again, why compare the iPhone to Android OS? What is the reason for wanting to compare mobile OS platforms that makes the exclusion of the iPod Touch a requirement?
In other news sales of Aston martin have been surpassed by fiat. Funny thing is that Aston martin's profit margin appears to be higher...
Ps. If we are talking os, do these figures include all iOS installs including iPad iPod touch and iPhone?
Irrespective, Market share does not equal success, quality or profitability. Popular is not defined by the number of products given away or cheaply available, massive Market share normally means an affordable or compromise product. The popular choice is what you aspire to own.
Sine when have apple equated success with Market share, and since when does larger Market share reflect succes, quality or user experience?
That is one very wrong comparison. While AM's profit margin should be much higher than Fiat's, AM was more than once in financial troubles and was purchased by Ford just to be sold a few years later (not being profitable enough?). On the other hand, cheap Fiat Group automotive companies include Ferrari, Maserati, Abarth, Alfa Romeo Automobiles, Lancia Automobiles... among the others.
Honestly, I'd rather be Fiat. There's nothing wrong with their Ferraris.
But likely still making the most money even as it "loses".
No one is arguing that. I can't recall anyone said Apple is doomed because Android phones are selling more. You don't need to have major market share to be successful luxury brand.
1) Those are models within the iPhone product. Some unilaterally, others upgrades, but they are still the iPhone product from ONE vendor.
You are talking about smartphone brands. I am talking about smartphone platforms.
2) You mention the NAND capacity but that doesn?t affect the iOS for the model. All iPhone 4 models get the same version of iOS. All iPhone 3GS models, etc.
I am talking about NAND capacity, different screen resolutions, different CPU/GPU. It is true you can force one iOS on most them (though barely on 3G and not at all on 2G, I think?) but one phone they are not. One brand (and one platform), on the other hand, they are.
3) Again, why compare the iPhone to Android OS? What is the reason for wanting to compare mobile OS platforms that makes the exclusion of the iPod Touch a requirement?
I see it like comparing passenger cars with diesel engines and passenger cars with petrol engines. Someone might rise a hand and say "well why don't we count petrol motorbikes as well - they are using same (technology) engines like petrol cars. True we can compare engine technologies which should involve motorbikes (but also diesel trucks and locomotives etc.) but if we are comparing passenger cars with diesel and petrol engines, we have a bit tighter focus and we cannot include bikes and other vehicles/machines with petrol or diesel engines. Likewise, I don't mind comparing mobile OS platforms as well... but here we are comparing smartphone platforms. iOS is one smartphone platform. Android is the other.
No one is arguing that. I can't recall anyone said Apple is doomed because Android phones are selling more. You don't need to have major market share to be successful luxury brand.
Glad you understand that because there are plenty of others around here who seem to think that Android having greater marketshare somehow dooms Apple and iPhone.
We've deviated from my original point of debate into the generic Android vs. iOS back and forth.
My original point was that competition was good and I personally see that evidenced by how much of a leap the iPhone 4/iOS4 is over the iPhone3GS/iOS3 was.
You are free to disagree, of course. But I do feel that Apple is susceptible to competitive pressures and that Android breathing down its neck helps both Android (which feels a constant pressure to catch up) and Apple (which must work hard to stay in the lead). In the end, this is good for us, the consumers.
Like I said earlier, to each his own. For a desktop, I love my Mac. For a mobile, I like Android. I'm still deciding which way to go on the tablet front. I want to see what iPad 2 has to offer before I commit to anything. I would hope that most people approach things this way instead of blindly committing to one brand for everything. But again, to each his own.
http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/07/e...honeycomb-tab/
I think there's certainly evidence there that Google is aware of Android's UX flaws and I expect they'll be working to fix them. Especially with this guy in the driver's seat.
That is one very wrong comparison.
Actually, it's an apt comparison. Not in the way he/she intended though. Android is exactly like Fiat. They have something for everybody. From the lowly Fiat 500 to a stable full of Ferraris and everything in between. And that's the point. Something for everybody.
Apple is less Aston Martin and more like BMW. Solid, reliable and exceptionally well performing machines. They sell well and make the company lots of profit. But there is an entry threshold.
The big question is whether this will hold true or whether this is where Apple wants to be. People seem to cite this model often (Apple as high price, high margin, the competition as low price, low margin). Yet, Apple does everything in its power to get carriers to sell the iPhone as cheaply as other handsets. And remember how much people expected them to sell the iPad for? And the shock when then price was announced? Apple still has the best margins in the business. But they aren't the high priced distributor that they are in the computing game.
I am skeptical whether Apple doesn't want at least some magical threshold of market share. For one, market share is essential to the viability of the platform in the mobile space. Nobody's going to make apps for you, if your platform isn't popular. And with the iPhone being a giant app launcher, that's a big deal.