Briefly: Apple shareholder proposal, VLC app removed, Intel tablets

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  • Reply 81 of 120
    nhtnht Posts: 4,522member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sprockkets View Post


    It still prevents them from free loading, LGPL or not.



    You don't need to force people to contribute. Folks contribute back to BSD and Apache based projects all the time. It's also not freeloading if the intent is for the code to be freely reused.



    And GPL hasn't kept Ubuntu from "freeloading" off the other distros. At least based on the grouching within some parts of the community.



    The fact is that GPL is viral while LGPL is not (as much). That's the key difference between strong and weak copyleft.



    Quote:

    Which is exactly the same reason for the BSD issue. No difference.



    Big difference. GPL prohibits the advert clause. 4-clause BSD (aka original BSD) is also not compatible with GPL for the same reasons. This is why GPL and BSD are incompatible and this is why combining OpenSSL with GPL code requires hoop jumping.



    Evidently you didn't even read the FSF GPL compatibility list in it's entirety. They didn't write that as a joke you know. It's not all true but who wants to risk getting sued by SFLC to make a point. The odds are low it'll happen since they wont want sue because they have a serious risk losing but still.



    Quote:

    You are making no sense, as GNU/LINUX is the right name to call it. It's the GNU software + Linux kernel, neither of each would be anywhere without the other. Linux happens to be GPL v2. because Linus doesn't care about the whole GPL 3 clause about patents and is more pragmatic (ie a compromiser).



    Linus could simply have used the BSD userland had it not been under that USL vs BSDi cloud. Of course, without that cloud there might never been linux at all (Linus has said he likely would have just used 386bsd) and the FSF would have been stuck with HURD and no working system.



    RMS needed Linus and Linux to further his cause a hell of a lot more than Linus needed gnu stuff with the exception of gcc.



    Quote:

    Why are you saying it is one way? With just about every project depending on another (like Handbrake on FFMPEG and x264, work done by VLC), you need to clairfy.



    Because code taken from a BSD project and enhanced ends up as GPL code assuming the change is significant enough to be its own work. You can't use GPL code in a BSD or Apache project without turning your project into a GPL project.



    Hence GPL is viral. By convention many folks won't license derivative work as GPL but license their contributions as BSD or Apache and feed it upstream. Some zealots don't or some folks just forget and their code is by default GPL since the rest of the project is. When that happens, contributions are one way and the GPL license is designed that way. All copyleft licenses are designed that way.



    FFMPEG is LGPL. Handbrake, x264 and VLC are GPL. Your example is worthless since all 4 projects are GPL or LGPL.



    Quote:

    Looks like you fall into that category.



    Given I've shown I actually understand FOSS licensing and you don't that's a very weak retort. You don't even know the difference between GPL and LGPL and that's a pretty dismal level of understanding even for a junior FSF zealot.



    Seems like you only learned one word in the FSF newspeak dictionary (freeloading). Can you at least recite the FSF four freedoms? Care to quote Ghandi like Eben Morgan does? The funny thing is that RMS isn't like Ghandi as much as he's like L. Ron Hubbard...
  • Reply 82 of 120
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nht View Post


    You don't need to force people to contribute. Folks contribute back to BSD and Apache based projects all the time. It's also not freeloading if the intent is for the code to be freely reused.



    So they do.



    But imagine that Apple or anyone else took KHTML, made webkit, then no longer gave back their code since they had no legal obligation to do so since it was BSD? Why do you think Microsoft loves BSD's license and hates the GPL? While they no longer rely on it, they did use the network stack from BSD for awhile. What did they give back? The obligatory copyright hidden in the vast files of the OS.



    Maybe, just maybe, there are cases that people want their software to be protected from that happening.



    Quote:

    And GPL hasn't kept Ubuntu from "freeloading" off the other distros. At least based on the grouching within some parts of the community.



    Some people complain about Ubuntu's lack of contributions to the software being distributed, as in they don't perhaps like Novell, make openoffice better, but that doesn't mean they take GPL software, improve on it and not disclose the source. That's leaving them open to a lawsuit.



    Quote:

    The fact is that GPL is viral while LGPL is not (as much). That's the key difference between strong and weak copyleft.



    Not that I didn't know that nor was arguing about that, so your point?



    Quote:

    Big difference. GPL prohibits the advert clause. 4-clause BSD (aka original BSD) is also not compatible with GPL for the same reasons. This is why GPL and BSD are incompatible and this is why combining OpenSSL with GPL code requires hoop jumping.



    It's done as already pointed out to make it easy to comply with the license in most cases, but to make it easier the modified BSD license exists. I know it is a very small nit, but in the world of making sure you don't allow yourself to get sued based on some stupid technicality, it has to be done.



    Same thing in my line of work; I have to warn people of the smallest of things. It sounds alarmist, and most cases it sounds like I'm just trying to get them to spend hundreds of dollars in repairs. But if later down the road it does happen, I'm legally responsible. For example, I didn't tell someone to use a special Carrier filter size for their unit. Three months later it caused their evaporator coil to clog 100%. Guess who didn't pay for the job of removing it to be cleaned?



    Quote:

    Evidently you didn't even read the FSF GPL compatibility list in it's entirety. They didn't write that as a joke you know. It's not all true but who wants to risk getting sued by SFLC to make a point. The odds are low it'll happen since they wont want sue because they have a serious risk losing but still.



    I think I already addressed that on the next post about Apple and VLC. And the above.



    Quote:

    Linus could simply have used the BSD userland had it not been under that USL vs BSDi cloud. Of course, without that cloud there might never been linux at all (Linus has said he likely would have just used 386bsd) and the FSF would have been stuck with HURD and no working system.



    RMS needed Linus and Linux to further his cause a hell of a lot more than Linus needed gnu stuff with the exception of gcc.



    If BSD was ready at the time Linus and his kernel would have been completely unnecessary. However, a kernel isn't much of anything without the rest of what comprises an OS, and GNU's goal was to do just that - a complete operating system.



    Linus doesn't care about RMS's ethical reasons for why software should be free, and neither do most people. Hence the OSI and its model of making software. And apple users only care about whether the stuff works or not.



    Quote:

    Because code taken from a BSD project and enhanced ends up as GPL code assuming the change is significant enough to be its own work. You can't use GPL code in a BSD or Apache project without turning your project into a GPL project.



    No you can't. But you make it sound like that's a big loss. The additional restriction you have is you or others can't take the resulting program and make it closed source.



    If you want to give 100% and simple want a simple one line of recognition that you made something, sure, use BSD. Vorbis has nothing to gain with the GPL, and even RMS told them to make it BSD.



    Quote:

    Hence GPL is viral.



    Right. You say "viral", I say it keeps people from freeloading and not contributing back. No one is forcing you to use it.



    Quote:

    FFMPEG is LGPL. Handbrake, x264 and VLC are GPL. Your example is worthless since all 4 projects are GPL or LGPL.



    The point I made which you of course missed is that Handbrake didn't make their own h.264 library to encode video, but used x264 from the video lan project, thus contributing a piece of useful software using perhaps the best h.264 library out there. What would Handbrake be without x264, or FFMPEG or anything else they use? Likewise, who wants to use x264 without a GUI?



    Quote:

    Given I've shown I actually understand FOSS licensing and you don't that's a very weak retort. You don't even know the difference between GPL and LGPL and that's a pretty dismal level of understanding even for a junior FSF zealot.



    Actually I do. You just setup a strawman argument instead.



    Quote:

    Seems like you only learned one word in the FSF newspeak dictionary (freeloading). Can you at least recite the FSF four freedoms? Care to quote Ghandi like Eben Morgan does? The funny thing is that RMS isn't like Ghandi as much as he's like L. Ron Hubbard



    Ooooh, now it's ad hominem.



    Perhaps you can ridicule those who raise the ethical reasons of why VLC chose to remove itself from the app store, but I admire those who rather stand up for what they believe in and not compromise their ideals just to be "popular."
  • Reply 83 of 120
    nasseraenasserae Posts: 3,167member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sprockkets View Post


    It's a legal issue, as in, Apple isn't going to change its TOS for GPL software by removing the one clause that means nothing to the end user: The limit of 5 downloads for the app per an account.



    Aside from that, the only issue Apple would have is that they could be sued, and since lawyers rule the earth, they rather not host the app. Simple as that.



    It is not 5 download limit. You can download an app you purchased from the app store as many times as you want. Their objection, as I understand it, is the five computers limit. When you buy an app you can copy it to only five computers authorized to use the iTunes account used to purchase the app. You can install your iOS apps on as many iOS devices as you wish.



    Apple can solve this problem by changing how this iTunes system work. Is it worth the hassle for just one app?! I don't think so. Apple did not go to the developer, the developer came to Apple. If they want their app on the App Store then they need to work something out with the copyright owner of the original work.
  • Reply 84 of 120
    povilaspovilas Posts: 473member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post


    So .. you are arguing that a persons race, gender and general appearance is the most important aspect to consider when talking about their actions or beliefs?



    Sometimes.
  • Reply 85 of 120
    kotatsukotatsu Posts: 1,010member
    While I don't use VLC for the iPhone (it's too slow to play HD content) it's really a shame that an idealist open source nazi like Remi had it removed. The guy is, to be frank, an idiot.
  • Reply 86 of 120
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,686member
    Personally I dont use GPL in projects. The idea that I use someones code and then have to not just make my software non-commercial , but open up my own source is about as free as Nazziism. I have both contributed and donated ( i.e money) to other Open Source projects.



    The fetish for these kind of agreements is an example of how some geeks are a totally different species to the rest if the world. OS fanatics are the only "workers" who fetish giving their labour away for free: personally I would believe that code "wants to free" when dentistry, gas, electricity, medicine and housing wants to be free. Until then I want to be paid.
  • Reply 87 of 120
    nhtnht Posts: 4,522member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sprockkets View Post


    So they do.



    But imagine that Apple or anyone else took KHTML, made webkit, then no longer gave back their code since they had no legal obligation to do so since it was BSD? Why do you think Microsoft loves BSD's license and hates the GPL? While they no longer rely on it, they did use the network stack from BSD for awhile. What did they give back? The obligatory copyright hidden in the vast files of the OS.



    Maybe, just maybe, there are cases that people want their software to be protected from that happening.



    Given that Apple contributed back to FreeBSD they may have contributed back upstream anyway



    MS licensed their TCP/IP stack from a company in Scotland that based their stack on BSD.



    MS hates GPL because of IBM and Linux. They have their own copyleft license as well.



    Quote:

    Some people complain about Ubuntu's lack of contributions to the software being distributed, as in they don't perhaps like Novell, make openoffice better, but that doesn't mean they take GPL software, improve on it and not disclose the source. That's leaving them open to a lawsuit.



    They whine about the fact they don't try to flow the changes they do make to the upstream like you complained how Apple didn't make it easy for webkit until later. That and they don't provide resources like the other major distros.



    Quote:

    Not that I didn't know that nor was arguing about that, so your point?



    The point is you keep saying that GPL isn't viral (I.e. Weblog is GPL and yet safari isn't) and then use a LGPL project as an example of GPL not being a hindrance. It is.



    Quote:

    It's done as already pointed out to make it easy to comply with the license in most cases, but to make it easier the modified BSD license exists. I know it is a very small nit, but in the world of making sure you don't allow yourself to get sued based on some stupid technicality, it has to be done.



    It's not a technicality to meet your copyright obligations.



    Quote:

    If BSD was ready at the time Linus and his kernel would have been completely unnecessary. However, a kernel isn't much of anything without the rest of what comprises an OS, and GNU's goal was to do just that - a complete operating system.



    BSD was ready and a fully complete intel based unix. It was one of those legal technicalities you think is unimportant.



    Quote:

    Linus doesn't care about RMS's ethical reasons for why software should be free, and neither do most people. Hence the OSI and its model of making software. And apple users only care about whether the stuff works or not.



    The licensing of software has nothing to do with ethics. This is why freetardism is a religion like Scientology.



    Quote:

    No you can't. But you make it sound like that's a big loss. The additional restriction you have is you or others can't take the resulting program and make it closed source.



    The point is that kind of one way behavior is what you call "freeloading". Whether it's a loss depends on the code but it is occasionally irksome for some asshat to proclaim their ethical software is all about freedom while at the same time adding more restrictions.



    Quote:

    Right. You say "viral", I say it keeps people from freeloading and not contributing back. No one is forcing you to use it.



    BSD folks don't care about freeloading except that it is an incorrect concept to apply to stuff given freely away. However if you DO care about freeloading you shouldn't freeload yourself. As in stop using permissive licensed code in GPL projects.



    Quote:

    The point I made which you of course missed is that Handbrake didn't make their own h.264 library to encode video, but used x264 from the video lan project, thus contributing a piece of useful software using perhaps the best h.264 library out there. What would Handbrake be without x264, or FFMPEG or anything else they use? Likewise, who wants to use x264 without a GUI?



    The point is that had these project not been GPL based they couldn't share code. So the "big loss" you don't think is a big deal would have been if Handbrake was BSD then it wouldn't be able to use x264 project code.



    Quote:

    Actually I do. You just setup a strawman argument instead.



    No, what's going on is that you use LGPL projects as examples when we're discussing GPL limitations.



    Quote:

    Ooooh, now it's ad hominem.



    Perhaps you can ridicule those who raise the ethical reasons of why VLC chose to remove itself from the app store, but I admire those who rather stand up for what they believe in and not compromise their ideals just to be "popular."



    I don't ridicule Scientologists even if I think they are weird as long as they don't call me names or try to mess with me.



    RMS' objective is to eliminate my profession as a viable wage earning profession. His whole gig is about some petty grievance and getting back at corporate coders and not about ethics. Read his writings and not just the whitewashed stuff on the FSF site. Even then some of that leaks through.
  • Reply 88 of 120
    edit clarified post
  • Reply 89 of 120
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by asdasd View Post


    Personally I dont use GPL in projects. The idea that I use someones code and then have to not just make my software non-commercial , but open up my own source is about as free as Nazziism. I have both contributed and donated ( i.e money) to other Open Source projects.



    The fetish for these kind of agreements is an example of how some geeks are a totally different species to the rest if the world. OS fanatics are the only "workers" who fetish giving their labour away for free: personally I would believe that code "wants to free" when dentistry, gas, electricity, medicine and housing wants to be free. Until then I want to be paid.



    Just because you have to make the source available doesn't mean you can't make money off of it. This too is a big misconception of gpl software.



    Instead of getting paid $$$, you get paid with others helping to develop your software. The vast majority of kernel developers, Mozilla developers also get paid.
  • Reply 90 of 120
    chiachia Posts: 713member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nht View Post


    The point is that kind of one way behavior is what you call "freeloading". Whether it's a loss depends on the code but it is occasionally irksome for some asshat to proclaim their ethical software is all about freedom while at the same time adding more restrictions.



    RMS' objective is to eliminate my profession as a viable wage earning profession. His whole gig is about some petty grievance and getting back at corporate coders and not about ethics. Read his writings and not just the whitewashed stuff on the FSF site. Even then some of that leaks through.



    nht I think you have some valid points here.

    As a user it does seem paradoxical that he advocates unrestricted dissemination of software yet expressed that he has no pity for iDevices over the removal of VLC from the app store. It's notable that particular comment has since been removed from his blog post.

    He can't seem to control his anti-Apple bias as today's blog post makes reference to Apple fanboys:

    http://planet.videolan.org/
  • Reply 91 of 120
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nht View Post


    Given that Apple contributed back to FreeBSD they may have contributed back upstream anyway



    MS licensed their TCP/IP stack from a company in Scotland that based their stack on BSD.



    MS hates GPL because of IBM and Linux. They have their own copulate license as well.



    That's an assumption on your part about apple. MS is on record as saying they hate the GPL because its "viral".



    Quote:

    They whine about the fact they don't try to flow the changes they do make to the upstream like you complained how Apple didn't make it easy for webkit until later. That and they don't provide resources like the other major distros.



    Well if that's the case then they should not be used. Personally I think Ubuntu and their shitty theme sucks, and is second rate to other distros, but they have at least made it more community driven as well.



    Quote:

    The point is you keep saying that GPL isn't viral (I.e. Weblog is GPL and yet safari isn't) and then use a LGPL project as an example of GPL not being a hindrance. It is.



    Nobody is forcing apple to use any GPL code, and while it was true I did forget KHTML is LGPL, it still does its job of making sure apple's changes are not closed source and not contributed back. Happy?







    Quote:

    It's not a technicality to meet your copyright obligations.



    And where did I say it wasn't? I said it was due to a technicality that makes it inconvenient to make sure you are 100% with the copyright license, not that it happens to be as you wish to paint it, "trivial".







    Quote:

    BSD was ready and a fully complete intel based unix. It was one of those legal technicalities you think is unimportant.



    Like the fact that they were being sued for trying to release the source? Please.



    Quote:

    The licensing of software has nothing to do with ethics. This is why freetardism is a religion like Scientology.



    It's more like you wish to separate ethics from software because it is convenient for you, much like evolutionists (more accurately materialists) don't believe in a god because not only does it mixes religion with science and thus causes the whole crap of which god or religion, it frees them from being accountable to it.



    Like already mentioned, most people don't care about that stuff since they just want software to work. Of course,as history already has shown, software with locks, uncecessary DRM, tie ins to proprietary formats and stuff like Microsoft hijacking the web with IE6 are reasons why the FSF has a point.



    And apple isn't a saint either. Why don't you look up what happened when Adobe tried to release a 64 bit carbon version of their software suite for Mac? Or Apple's NDAs and other crap they put their developers through just to sell software on their app store?



    http://arstechnica.com/apple/guides/...-edition.ars/4



    Quote:

    The point is that kind of one way behavior is what you call "freeloading". Whether it's a loss depends on the code but it is occasionally irksome for some asshat to proclaim their ethical software is all about freedom while at the same time adding more restrictions.



    Restrictions are what guarantee the freedom to share the software. If you don't like it, don't use it, and don't take code from it. Nobody is forcing apple to use work previously done with KHTML.



    Quote:

    BSD folks don't care about freeloading except that it is an incorrect concept to apply to stuff given freely away. However if you DO care about freeloading you shouldn't freeload yourself. As in stop using permissive licensed code in GPL projects.



    You are making no sense; with the gpl code you take to free load in your project can also be free loaded, as in what I take and build on others can as well. No one person can make a great program all by themselves, especially with a project as big as a kernel.



    Quote:

    The point is that had these project not been GPL based they couldn't share code. So the "big loss" you don't think is a big deal would have been if Handbrake was BSD then it wouldn't be able to use x264 project code.



    And Handbrake would be losing what if it went GPL from BSD? If it were BSD they give it out for free to begin with. It prevents them from ever only giving out binaries only of the code, but that doesn't mean they can't use x264. Plenty of projects exist with multiple licenses.



    Quote:

    I don't ridicule Scientologists even if I think they are weird as long as they don't call me names or try to mess with me.



    And that stopped you from ridiculing someone on the internet?



    Quote:

    RMS' objective is to eliminate my profession as a viable wage earning profession. His whole gig is about some petty grievance and getting back at corporate coders and not about ethics. Read his writings and not just the whitewashed stuff on the FSF site. Even then some of that leaks through.



    Yeah, because free software is the only one out there, nobody needs internal development.



    And just so you know, Microsoft is a monopoly, they and Apple screws users, politicians lie and all are motivated by greed for money. Welcome to the reality we call life.
  • Reply 92 of 120
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,686member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sprockkets View Post


    Just because you have to make the source available doesn't mean you can't make money off of it. This too is a big misconception of gpl software.



    Instead of getting paid $$$, you get paid with others helping to develop your software. The vast majority of kernel developers, Mozilla developers also get paid.



    I really see Mozilla as a professional project run by normal engineers with some very little outside input. That kind of Open Source works because professionals are doing it, and controlling the input of non-professionals.



    I dont care about getting others to "help" develop my software if they insist on restricting my right to sell it. A piece of software ( open sourced or not) which I use is effectively an API to me: a binary which works - anathema to the OS "community" - or a webserivce which works is all I need; and I can pay, or contribute if necessary.



    What a gpl licence does is : sitting on other people's work ( which we all do) they demand that their software, even if merely 1% of some project, change the licence of all subsequent software using it to not just be free at sale but to show all it's source code, thus removing any intellectual protection.



    how much work in a GPL library is actually done by the GPL writers? None of the low level API they are using, they are not rewriting the Objective C api, or Posix api, or kernel, or compiler and for their little addition to the actual machine code generated by their library they demand the end of commercial software use from then on in. Get lost.



    I have, as I said, contributed to MIT licences - which I see an engineers helping each other to write code - but restricted licences are a joke.
  • Reply 93 of 120
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,686member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sprockkets View Post






    Yeah, because free software is the only one out there, nobody needs internal development.



    And just so you know, Microsoft is a monopoly, they and Apple screws users, politicians lie and all are motivated by greed for money. Welcome to the reality we call life.



    Apparantly the "reality we call life" doesnt apply to software developers who want to make money. Everybody else will need to get paid though.
  • Reply 94 of 120
    hill60hill60 Posts: 6,992member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ChiA View Post


    nht I think you have some valid points here.

    As a user it does seem paradoxical that he advocates unrestricted dissemination of software yet expressed that he has no pity for iDevices over the removal of VLC from the app store. It's notable that particular comment has since been removed from his blog post.

    He can't seem to control his anti-Apple bias as today's blog post makes reference to Apple fanboys:

    http://planet.videolan.org/



    It could be because he works for Nokia.



    Apparently he enjoyed being paid by Google for the "Summer of Code".



    Apple removed VLC because as a stakeholder in VLC's licensing agreements he asked them to, after they considered his request, what a dumbass.
  • Reply 95 of 120
    nhtnht Posts: 4,522member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sprockkets View Post


    That's an assumption on your part about apple. MS is on record as saying they hate the GPL because its "viral".



    And yet they have an equally viral license all their own...



    Quote:

    Nobody is forcing apple to use any GPL code, and while it was true I did forget KHTML is LGPL, it still does its job of making sure apple's changes are not closed source and not contributed back. Happy?



    I'm usually happy. You seem angry about freeloaders though.



    Nope, no one if forcing folks to use GPL code. I typically don't and always gravitate to Apache or BSD code. But it is an annoyance that they lock their code away as much as any other proprietary company but claim the be "more free". Whatever.



    Quote:

    It's more like you wish to separate ethics from software because it is convenient for you, much like evolutionists (more accurately materialists) don't believe in a god because not only does it mixes religion with science and thus causes the whole crap of which god or religion, it frees them from being accountable to it.



    It's more like I separate ethics from software because software is just software...proprietary software is no more or less evil than open source software. There is real evil in the world. Microsoft isn't it. Neither is any other kind of proprietary software.



    That and because RMS and the FSF attempt to conflate their idiotic "freedoms" with genuine freedoms. Compare RMS' four freedoms with Roosevelt's four freedoms. One is inane. The other is important.



    Quote:

    You are making no sense; with the gpl code you take to free load in your project can also be free loaded, as in what I take and build on others can as well. No one person can make a great program all by themselves, especially with a project as big as a kernel.



    It can be reused ONLY by other GPL projects. Not by Apache, BSD, MPL or other open source projects. The "freeloading" is one way.



    What is it with you and freeloading anyway? It's not like you're a developer.



    Quote:

    And Handbrake would be losing what if it went GPL from BSD? If it were BSD they give it out for free to begin with. It prevents them from ever only giving out binaries only of the code, but that doesn't mean they can't use x264. Plenty of projects exist with multiple licenses.



    The freedom for the original developer to choose the license for their work is lost in your scenario. The freedom of the developer is more important than the freedom of the user because the devs are doing all the work. When the users are paying for the work, then they get to choose.



    Handbrake, already being GPL is a poor example but if you take Apache as the example then Apache loses a lot by going GPL. But actual freedom for developers is something you don't understand or care about. And its hard to discuss freedom with freetards because they've redefined the language.



    Quote:

    Yeah, because free software is the only one out there, nobody needs internal development.



    And if the FSF had its way then the only software out there would be "free" software.



    Quote:

    And just so you know, Microsoft is a monopoly, they and Apple screws users, politicians lie and all are motivated by greed for money. Welcome to the reality we call life.



    The reality is that RMS is a freeloading fruit loop.



    Fortunately we have Linus who isn't a fruit loop or a free loader in charge of the Linux kernel.
  • Reply 96 of 120
    nhtnht Posts: 4,522member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hill60 View Post




    Apparently he enjoyed being paid by Google for the "Summer of Code".



    Only the students get paid...the mentors don't. I was a GSOC mentor one year and it was a lot of fun.
  • Reply 97 of 120
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sprockkets View Post


    Just because you have to make the source available doesn't mean you can't make money off of it. This too is a big misconception of gpl software.



    Instead of getting paid $$$, you get paid with others helping to develop your software. The vast majority of kernel developers, Mozilla developers also get paid.



    I've been in the industry since Commodore 64 days and I can honestly say that I have *never* seen a really good piece of software that was open source. There's a lot of great code snippets out there, and quite a few projects that have become useful and even indispensable, but a shipping product? ... not so much.



    Even the big "stars" of open source like Linux and OpenOffice are essentially bad, buggy copies of others original work. How incredibly ironic is it that the core "products" of the open source movement which is presumably all about freedom and creativity and originality are actually all derivative works? Copycat works that are closer to the originals than any of Microsoft's copies of Apple's work.



    The GPL is (IMO of course), nothing more than the last gasp of a movement that simply didn't work. The idea was that if everything was open, then creativity would flourish, the worst instincts of capitalism would be kept at bay, and we'd all be free. We were eventually supposed to move towards the goal of everything being open and the world would be a better place. When this didn't actually happen, the last hope was the GPL license. The idea was that making the "freedom" *viral* would (essentially) force people to be free and open.



    Guess what? It turns out that you can't "enforce freedom" and the majority of the people taking advantage of the "freedom" are not creatives, but copiers, cheaters, and those with less imagination and lesser skills than the rest of us.
  • Reply 98 of 120
    aiaddictaiaddict Posts: 487member
    There is a difference between FREE as in no charge and FREEDOM. This stupidity over the licensing semantics is a perfect example.



    The opensource world is an application of socialism to software. Yes the code becomes free, but at a cost of freedom, efficiency, and quality. Coming from a UNIX background in the early 90's, I never had any love for Microsoft and I wanted to like LINUX and Open Office and other alternative projects, but they have never been quite good enough. Plus, the community has more than its share of egos despite the lack of Gates or Jobs like success.
  • Reply 99 of 120
    anonymouseanonymouse Posts: 6,857member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sprockkets View Post


    Where did you read that nonsense? BSD's license is totally compatible with GPL regardless of version. Nothing prevents Pidgin from using openssl due to the GPL. ...



    Excuse me if I think it's quite likely that the developers of Pidgin know more about the licensing issues associated with their software than you do. Unless you think they are stupid, or something like that?



    A lot of zealotry and religion in the FSF/GPL camp, and that's never a recipe for clear thinking.
  • Reply 100 of 120
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AIaddict View Post


    There is a difference between FREE as in no charge and FREEDOM. This stupidity over the licensing semantics is a perfect example.



    The opensource world is an application of socialism to software. Yes the code becomes free, but at a cost of freedom, efficiency, and quality. Coming from a UNIX background in the early 90's, I never had any love for Microsoft and I wanted to like LINUX and Open Office and other alternative projects, but they have never been quite good enough. Plus, the community has more than its share of egos despite the lack of Gates or Jobs like success.



    Richard Stallman, for one. Stallman believed that access to software should not be restricted. If you write a piece of code, others should be able to take that and exploit it freely. He ignored economic disincentives and believed in some Gene Roddenberry-style utopian socio-economic system where programmers worked because they love coding and love mankind and want to give their code to mankind out of pure altruism. That's great in Star Trek where nobody uses money, but in the real world, rent, food, medicine, and electricity costs money.
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