Anything running iOS I?d expect to be at least Cortex-A8-based. I say at least because I don?t think we can rule out possible supply issues with Apple and Samsung producing enough dual-core Cortex-A9-based Apple SoCs (i.e. A4 or A8 or whatever), or that Apple wasn?t able to do some crazy things with Cortex-A8 that make it a better option over a less optimized Cortex-A9 based system.
Obviosly not all of A8 but A5 should be able to run at a much higher clock tha ARM11 machines and be thrifty with power. If they can hit 800MHz or even 1Ghz in a dual or quad core implementation it would be a very nice platform for handhelds. One must remember that there have been several node shrinks since ARM 11 processors came out.
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That said, I think the latter is highly unlikely as Cortex-A9, while still being ARMv7 like Cortex-A8, has many new features that allow for better performance while being more power efficient. Even if they have to wait a month for the chips I think it would likely be better than another year before moving to Cortex-A9.
This is true. A Cortex A9 in an iPhone is pretty much a question of power usage. The problem is it is hard for any one processor to do everything well. In otherwords what is good in the iPad may not be optimal in a cell phone.
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Also, I can?t recall Apple ever having a problem sourcing ARM chips. If I had to place a bet today I?d say that the iPad, iPhone and iPod Touch due out this year will all be dual-core Cortex-A9-based.
That would be the minimal acceptable in an iPad.
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As for a universal remote, If that did come to pass would that be best served with iOS or with the much simpler OS used for the new iPod Nano. That device feels very responsive yet uses very little power in comparison to the Touch.
The universal remote likely uses an 8 bit CPU or one of the embedded ARM chips. it really doesn't take much to do a remote.
I'm not saying it will happen just that it might be an interesting path for Apple to follow. Plus we have the rumor about the split of the development teams at Apple.
As to Cortex A5 it can easily be implemented as a low cost SMP with multiple cores. This could lead to an iPhone with very good performance with a long battery life. My biggest fear with respect to A9 is power draw in a pocketable device. That of course depends upon the process tech and Apples power reduction skills. Beyond that iPhone 4 doesn't suffer performance issues the way iPad does.
In a nut shell IPad needs a different class of processor. I'm not convinced that Cortex A5 can replace Apples hopped up Cortex A8 but if it can it ought to a very low power implementation. It is an interesting thought exercise.
I've read that a coretex A9 running 1 core is more power efficient than a comparable A8.
The problem is ARM often specifies power per core so that when another is added you end up using more power. So even if this is correct for a given process, if Apple goes dual core we might end up using more power. I don't have numbers in front of me but I seem to remember numbers of around 600 milliwatts for the A9 core.
The thing here is that it is almost a given that these numbers won't apple to Apples SoC. For one thing a process shrink is likely. Second they will likely continue to use Intrisities Fast logic, possible over the whole chip. So it is really hard to estimate where Apple will be power wise, especially if you throw in PA Semis abilities. Plus Apple does have the option of running a slower clock on the iPhone.
I can see both sides of the discussion here, my problem is that in the long run I suspect that it will make a lot of sense to have a chip tailored to iPad like tablets and one more suitable for pocketable devices. By doing so Apple can optimize for the platform.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
I've read that a coretex A9 running 1 core is more power efficient than a comparable A8.
The question is this if Apples A9 based SoC can hit 2GHz do they really need to implement that in a phone? I know some here will do back flips while saying yes yes yes, but others would be very concerned about battery life. I'm in the battery life camp myself. That is as long as they can continue to modestly improve iPhones performance. The thing is iPAD needs much more than a modest improvement.
The big bummer here is that we have to wait to April if the most recent rumors are true. I'm still hoping I can milk my iPhone 3Gs battery until iPhone 5 comes out.
I think people would feel a little ripped off too. It's dangerous of them to get in the habit of obsoleting cellular customers after 1 year. iPod nanos? Sure! Those cost $150 flat. Cell phones cost $2000 or more for the contract, I don't think its a good idea to piss people off when they're paying through the nose.
Prior iPhones would not be obsolete. I still use a 3G iphone...it works perfectly. The new ones are a bit faster and have some features that I don't have, but I don't consider it be obsolete. Whether you have an old phone or a new one, you're paying the same monthly fee for the contract. I skipped the 3GS because my contract wasn't up yet and I skipped the 4 initially because of the perceived problems and later because I thought I might switch to Verizon, but now that AT&T has improved my service and since you can't do voice & data concurrently on Verizon and the fact that they're supposedly eliminating the "new every 2" program, I'm sticking with AT&T anyway.
Furthermore, there's no reason to dump a CDMA-only or GSM-only iPhone to get a CDMA+GSM cell phone unless you plan to switch carriers often, which is near impossible unless you're willing to pay cancelation fees or unless you constantly travel around the world, in which case it would probably be worth it to you.
And in any case, there's nothing wrong and everything great with Apple redesigning the iPhone for the 5th gen release. I'm not sure I believe the rumor, but if it's true...great. I'd love to see Apple stay ahead of everyone else and continuing to push the bar of greatness.
So if Apple comes out with an iPhone 5 that's great, that's no reason for anyone to get pissed. Those who do are simply spoiled and immature. Do you get pissed when car manufacturers come out with new models every year?
The problem is ARM often specifies power per core so that when another is added you end up using more power. So even if this is correct for a given process, if Apple goes dual core we might end up using more power. I don't have numbers in front of me but I seem to remember numbers of around 600 milliwatts for the A9 core.
The thing here is that it is almost a given that these numbers won't apple to Apples SoC. For one thing a process shrink is likely. Second they will likely continue to use Intrisities Fast logic, possible over the whole chip. So it is really hard to estimate where Apple will be power wise, especially if you throw in PA Semis abilities. Plus Apple does have the option of running a slower clock on the iPhone.
I can see both sides of the discussion here, my problem is that in the long run I suspect that it will make a lot of sense to have a chip tailored to iPad like tablets and one more suitable for pocketable devices. By doing so Apple can optimize for the platform.
The question is this if Apples A9 based SoC can hit 2GHz do they really need to implement that in a phone? I know some here will do back flips while saying yes yes yes, but others would be very concerned about battery life. I'm in the battery life camp myself. That is as long as they can continue to modestly improve iPhones performance. The thing is iPAD needs much more than a modest improvement.
The big bummer here is that we have to wait to April if the most recent rumors are true. I'm still hoping I can milk my iPhone 3Gs battery until iPhone 5 comes out.
I agree on both counts.
The iPhone needs a little more robust notifications, slightly expanded (but restricted) multitasking... But better battery and network speed are the bigest issues.
iMovie on the iPhone is more than I want to do -- because of screen size limitations.
For the iPad, I want all the processing power (CPU, GPU, RAM) that I can get without sacrificing battery -- or at least the choice to tradeoff power vs battery.
I can see doing an iMovie and h.264 encode on the iPad.
Well the Verizon iPhone rumors just stopped... just in time for the iPhone 5 rumors to spin out of control.
I wonder how much business the rumors of a new iPhone world phone (set for release in June) will cost Verizon?
No, The Verizon iPhone Rumors have spun out of control lately. Even Apple & Verizon are feeding this rumor by announcing such a product! When will it end?
The iPhone needs a little more robust notifications, slightly expanded (but restricted) multitasking... But better battery and network speed are the bigest issues.
iMovie on the iPhone is more than I want to do -- because of screen size limitations.
For the iPad, I want all the processing power (CPU, GPU, RAM) that I can get without sacrificing battery -- or at least the choice to tradeoff power vs battery.
I can see doing an iMovie and h.264 encode on the iPad.
Careful for what you wish for. This line of thought leads to "I want an iPad with all the processing power & storage of a MacBook" so I can do XYZ. Next thing you'll say is, "wouldn't it be nice to have a physical keyboard," and then Apple will put one on the iPad so that it looks like a notebook, and pretty soon, you'll have a notebook running iOS instead of Mac OS X.
We've already gone down this road (or are going down this road) with Netbooks: first they start out as cheap underpowered notebooks with tiny screens and keyboards, and in the interest of progress and competition, Netbooks become more powerful and flexible, and growing in size, weight, and cost, until you're back to notebooks.
No, The Verizon iPhone Rumors have spun out of control lately. Even Apple & Verizon are feeding this rumor by announcing such a product! When will it end?
It makes no sense that Apple would mass produce a CDMA version of the iPhone 4 running CDMA only if they are planning on releasing the iPhone 5 with a GSM/CDMA chip in it. Why would they not wait the extra 4 months and release one unified product? That seems like it would be much more Apple's style.
My Guess is that there may be a June phone announcement but due to delays, unsold volumes of iPhone 4s they want to celar out or any number number of other reasons, the phone may not actually ship until September or later. It was probably better to get a Verizon phone out now than to miss most of the year and lose the CDMA crowd to Android or RIM. I still feel we will get a modest 4s upgrade before we see the 5. Maybe the same form factor as the verizon version but a world phone with a speed bump and more storage. If that were the case a 4s would probably be all I'd need for a few years unless some new killer app came out that required more storage or speed or some yet unreleased magic feature. 4G/LTE/WiMAX is not ubiquitous enough yet to warrant me holding out for it.
My Guess is that there may be a June phone announcement but due to delays, unsold volumes of iPhone 4s they want to celar out or any number number of other reasons, the phone may not actually ship until September or later. It was probably better to get a Verizon phone out now than to miss most of the year and lose the CDMA crowd to Android or RIM. I still feel we will get a modest 4s upgrade before we see the 5. Maybe the same form factor as the verizon version but a world phone with a speed bump and more storage. If that were the case a 4s would probably be all I'd need for a few years unless some new killer app came out that required more storage or speed or some yet unreleased magic feature. 4G/LTE/WiMAX is not ubiquitous enough yet to warrant me holding out for it.
Honestly, people need to stop getting upset for the poor people who cant upgrade because they are in contracts in June. I was in a 3GS contract last June and didnt get the iPhone 4. I will get the iPhone 5. And I like shiny new gadgets. All that has happened here is something that happens every quarter since the launch of the iPhone - it moved onto a new carrier. This time the carrier is in the US, and this time the phone gets a new chip, but thats it. No real story.
The new iPhone (4s or 5) will have greater speed, more ram, a NFC chip ( most likely), a dual core processor making it the same jump - or better - as from the 3G to the 3GS. Which was a large jump.
However it will probably look more or less the same. It will probably be released in June. Verizon customers will be a tiny percentage of the iPhone installed base, why wait for them to be in a better position re: upgrades and what about the poeple who buy in June if it releases in September.?
-- You live in a good ATT Area, but often travel to. SF or NY - you buy unlocked and PayGo or roam.
CDMA does not work like that. You can not simply pop in a SIM or self provision the phone for whatever network you want to be on. Go take a Verizon phone and activate it on Sprint, well, try to at least, then report back how that worked for you.
Combining CDMA and GSM helps people on a CDMA network who want to travel. It does nothing for someone on a GSM network since the only way to use a foreign CDMA network would be through a roaming contract ($$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$) through your home GSM provider. It will always be cheaper and easier to pop in a local GSM sim and pay competitive rates rather than roaming rates or paying a foreign provider to provision your CDMA phone for a brief visit.
"Apple this year plans to release a completely redesigned dual GSM-CDMA iPhone" - Don't think so. A complete redesign on the scale they want couldn't happen. Retooling itself would take more time than the time it took them to redesign a CDMA board to fit the iPhone 4. The cost involved in a retool right now would raise the cost of the next gen more than anyone could afford.
They've managed to retool for the nanos every year.
Comments
Not quite a standard interface, but fair enough.
Yeah lots of apps are already building in support for it. Oh here is another new toy to do that
http://www.sonicstate.com/news/2011/...idi-interface/
I just wanted to make few points about future design of IPAD and Iphone-5.
Here is one more for curious non-techies who love Apple-
Try Kickstarter.com and look at( search for) TIKTOK-Lunatik, Padpivot, Dockem, Glif, ultimate one, Mixar.
I promise you will love it. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Anything running iOS I?d expect to be at least Cortex-A8-based. I say at least because I don?t think we can rule out possible supply issues with Apple and Samsung producing enough dual-core Cortex-A9-based Apple SoCs (i.e. A4 or A8 or whatever), or that Apple wasn?t able to do some crazy things with Cortex-A8 that make it a better option over a less optimized Cortex-A9 based system.
Obviosly not all of A8 but A5 should be able to run at a much higher clock tha ARM11 machines and be thrifty with power. If they can hit 800MHz or even 1Ghz in a dual or quad core implementation it would be a very nice platform for handhelds. One must remember that there have been several node shrinks since ARM 11 processors came out.
That said, I think the latter is highly unlikely as Cortex-A9, while still being ARMv7 like Cortex-A8, has many new features that allow for better performance while being more power efficient. Even if they have to wait a month for the chips I think it would likely be better than another year before moving to Cortex-A9.
This is true. A Cortex A9 in an iPhone is pretty much a question of power usage. The problem is it is hard for any one processor to do everything well. In otherwords what is good in the iPad may not be optimal in a cell phone.
Also, I can?t recall Apple ever having a problem sourcing ARM chips. If I had to place a bet today I?d say that the iPad, iPhone and iPod Touch due out this year will all be dual-core Cortex-A9-based.
That would be the minimal acceptable in an iPad.
As for a universal remote, If that did come to pass would that be best served with iOS or with the much simpler OS used for the new iPod Nano. That device feels very responsive yet uses very little power in comparison to the Touch.
The universal remote likely uses an 8 bit CPU or one of the embedded ARM chips. it really doesn't take much to do a remote.
I'm not saying it will happen just that it might be an interesting path for Apple to follow. Plus we have the rumor about the split of the development teams at Apple.
As to Cortex A5 it can easily be implemented as a low cost SMP with multiple cores. This could lead to an iPhone with very good performance with a long battery life. My biggest fear with respect to A9 is power draw in a pocketable device. That of course depends upon the process tech and Apples power reduction skills. Beyond that iPhone 4 doesn't suffer performance issues the way iPad does.
In a nut shell IPad needs a different class of processor. I'm not convinced that Cortex A5 can replace Apples hopped up Cortex A8 but if it can it ought to a very low power implementation. It is an interesting thought exercise.
I've read that a coretex A9 running 1 core is more power efficient than a comparable A8.
The thing here is that it is almost a given that these numbers won't apple to Apples SoC. For one thing a process shrink is likely. Second they will likely continue to use Intrisities Fast logic, possible over the whole chip. So it is really hard to estimate where Apple will be power wise, especially if you throw in PA Semis abilities. Plus Apple does have the option of running a slower clock on the iPhone.
I can see both sides of the discussion here, my problem is that in the long run I suspect that it will make a lot of sense to have a chip tailored to iPad like tablets and one more suitable for pocketable devices. By doing so Apple can optimize for the platform.
I've read that a coretex A9 running 1 core is more power efficient than a comparable A8.
The question is this if Apples A9 based SoC can hit 2GHz do they really need to implement that in a phone? I know some here will do back flips while saying yes yes yes, but others would be very concerned about battery life. I'm in the battery life camp myself. That is as long as they can continue to modestly improve iPhones performance. The thing is iPAD needs much more than a modest improvement.
The big bummer here is that we have to wait to April if the most recent rumors are true. I'm still hoping I can milk my iPhone 3Gs battery until iPhone 5 comes out.
I think people would feel a little ripped off too. It's dangerous of them to get in the habit of obsoleting cellular customers after 1 year. iPod nanos? Sure! Those cost $150 flat. Cell phones cost $2000 or more for the contract, I don't think its a good idea to piss people off when they're paying through the nose.
Prior iPhones would not be obsolete. I still use a 3G iphone...it works perfectly. The new ones are a bit faster and have some features that I don't have, but I don't consider it be obsolete. Whether you have an old phone or a new one, you're paying the same monthly fee for the contract. I skipped the 3GS because my contract wasn't up yet and I skipped the 4 initially because of the perceived problems and later because I thought I might switch to Verizon, but now that AT&T has improved my service and since you can't do voice & data concurrently on Verizon and the fact that they're supposedly eliminating the "new every 2" program, I'm sticking with AT&T anyway.
Furthermore, there's no reason to dump a CDMA-only or GSM-only iPhone to get a CDMA+GSM cell phone unless you plan to switch carriers often, which is near impossible unless you're willing to pay cancelation fees or unless you constantly travel around the world, in which case it would probably be worth it to you.
And in any case, there's nothing wrong and everything great with Apple redesigning the iPhone for the 5th gen release. I'm not sure I believe the rumor, but if it's true...great. I'd love to see Apple stay ahead of everyone else and continuing to push the bar of greatness.
So if Apple comes out with an iPhone 5 that's great, that's no reason for anyone to get pissed. Those who do are simply spoiled and immature. Do you get pissed when car manufacturers come out with new models every year?
The problem is ARM often specifies power per core so that when another is added you end up using more power. So even if this is correct for a given process, if Apple goes dual core we might end up using more power. I don't have numbers in front of me but I seem to remember numbers of around 600 milliwatts for the A9 core.
The thing here is that it is almost a given that these numbers won't apple to Apples SoC. For one thing a process shrink is likely. Second they will likely continue to use Intrisities Fast logic, possible over the whole chip. So it is really hard to estimate where Apple will be power wise, especially if you throw in PA Semis abilities. Plus Apple does have the option of running a slower clock on the iPhone.
I can see both sides of the discussion here, my problem is that in the long run I suspect that it will make a lot of sense to have a chip tailored to iPad like tablets and one more suitable for pocketable devices. By doing so Apple can optimize for the platform.
The question is this if Apples A9 based SoC can hit 2GHz do they really need to implement that in a phone? I know some here will do back flips while saying yes yes yes, but others would be very concerned about battery life. I'm in the battery life camp myself. That is as long as they can continue to modestly improve iPhones performance. The thing is iPAD needs much more than a modest improvement.
The big bummer here is that we have to wait to April if the most recent rumors are true. I'm still hoping I can milk my iPhone 3Gs battery until iPhone 5 comes out.
I agree on both counts.
The iPhone needs a little more robust notifications, slightly expanded (but restricted) multitasking... But better battery and network speed are the bigest issues.
iMovie on the iPhone is more than I want to do -- because of screen size limitations.
For the iPad, I want all the processing power (CPU, GPU, RAM) that I can get without sacrificing battery -- or at least the choice to tradeoff power vs battery.
I can see doing an iMovie and h.264 encode on the iPad.
Well the Verizon iPhone rumors just stopped... just in time for the iPhone 5 rumors to spin out of control.
I wonder how much business the rumors of a new iPhone world phone (set for release in June) will cost Verizon?
No, The Verizon iPhone Rumors have spun out of control lately. Even Apple & Verizon are feeding this rumor by announcing such a product! When will it end?
Apple doesn't change the Mac external designs around too much currently because it hasn't had to do so.
I think its more to with SJ having lost interest in the Mac now the iPhone and iPad have proved a hit.
Sad but thats how it seems to me.
I agree on both counts.
The iPhone needs a little more robust notifications, slightly expanded (but restricted) multitasking... But better battery and network speed are the bigest issues.
iMovie on the iPhone is more than I want to do -- because of screen size limitations.
For the iPad, I want all the processing power (CPU, GPU, RAM) that I can get without sacrificing battery -- or at least the choice to tradeoff power vs battery.
I can see doing an iMovie and h.264 encode on the iPad.
Careful for what you wish for. This line of thought leads to "I want an iPad with all the processing power & storage of a MacBook" so I can do XYZ. Next thing you'll say is, "wouldn't it be nice to have a physical keyboard," and then Apple will put one on the iPad so that it looks like a notebook, and pretty soon, you'll have a notebook running iOS instead of Mac OS X.
We've already gone down this road (or are going down this road) with Netbooks: first they start out as cheap underpowered notebooks with tiny screens and keyboards, and in the interest of progress and competition, Netbooks become more powerful and flexible, and growing in size, weight, and cost, until you're back to notebooks.
No, The Verizon iPhone Rumors have spun out of control lately. Even Apple & Verizon are feeding this rumor by announcing such a product! When will it end?
REMEMBER ME?
It makes no sense that Apple would mass produce a CDMA version of the iPhone 4 running CDMA only if they are planning on releasing the iPhone 5 with a GSM/CDMA chip in it. Why would they not wait the extra 4 months and release one unified product? That seems like it would be much more Apple's style.
My Guess is that there may be a June phone announcement but due to delays, unsold volumes of iPhone 4s they want to celar out or any number number of other reasons, the phone may not actually ship until September or later. It was probably better to get a Verizon phone out now than to miss most of the year and lose the CDMA crowd to Android or RIM. I still feel we will get a modest 4s upgrade before we see the 5. Maybe the same form factor as the verizon version but a world phone with a speed bump and more storage. If that were the case a 4s would probably be all I'd need for a few years unless some new killer app came out that required more storage or speed or some yet unreleased magic feature. 4G/LTE/WiMAX is not ubiquitous enough yet to warrant me holding out for it.
REMEMBER ME?
NOOOO!!! When will it end? OMG make the innovations stop!
(Cool pic. Can you 'shop the phone icon onto an iPod Nano screen?)
My Guess is that there may be a June phone announcement but due to delays, unsold volumes of iPhone 4s they want to celar out or any number number of other reasons, the phone may not actually ship until September or later. It was probably better to get a Verizon phone out now than to miss most of the year and lose the CDMA crowd to Android or RIM. I still feel we will get a modest 4s upgrade before we see the 5. Maybe the same form factor as the verizon version but a world phone with a speed bump and more storage. If that were the case a 4s would probably be all I'd need for a few years unless some new killer app came out that required more storage or speed or some yet unreleased magic feature. 4G/LTE/WiMAX is not ubiquitous enough yet to warrant me holding out for it.
Honestly, people need to stop getting upset for the poor people who cant upgrade because they are in contracts in June. I was in a 3GS contract last June and didnt get the iPhone 4. I will get the iPhone 5. And I like shiny new gadgets. All that has happened here is something that happens every quarter since the launch of the iPhone - it moved onto a new carrier. This time the carrier is in the US, and this time the phone gets a new chip, but thats it. No real story.
The new iPhone (4s or 5) will have greater speed, more ram, a NFC chip ( most likely), a dual core processor making it the same jump - or better - as from the 3G to the 3GS. Which was a large jump.
However it will probably look more or less the same. It will probably be released in June. Verizon customers will be a tiny percentage of the iPhone installed base, why wait for them to be in a better position re: upgrades and what about the poeple who buy in June if it releases in September.?
There are lots of user scenarios:
-- You live in a good ATT Area, but often travel to. SF or NY - you buy unlocked and PayGo or roam.
CDMA does not work like that. You can not simply pop in a SIM or self provision the phone for whatever network you want to be on. Go take a Verizon phone and activate it on Sprint, well, try to at least, then report back how that worked for you.
Combining CDMA and GSM helps people on a CDMA network who want to travel. It does nothing for someone on a GSM network since the only way to use a foreign CDMA network would be through a roaming contract ($$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$) through your home GSM provider. It will always be cheaper and easier to pop in a local GSM sim and pay competitive rates rather than roaming rates or paying a foreign provider to provision your CDMA phone for a brief visit.
Is there an option 3 that simply allows Apple to change / tweak designs for the sake of evolution?
What is the purpose of evolution, if not to improve? Are you suggesting that Apple should just change things around for no reason?
"Apple this year plans to release a completely redesigned dual GSM-CDMA iPhone" - Don't think so. A complete redesign on the scale they want couldn't happen. Retooling itself would take more time than the time it took them to redesign a CDMA board to fit the iPhone 4. The cost involved in a retool right now would raise the cost of the next gen more than anyone could afford.
They've managed to retool for the nanos every year.