This is mainly about digital content being purchased from and delivered to an iOS device. Apple doesn't sell air conditioners. Why would Apple be worried about users buying air conditioners? Apple does sell digital books. They should worry about their competition getting a free ride on their own platform. They are essentially giving their competition an advantage. Does Amazon allow other book stores on the Kindle device? Nope. So maybe Apple should just completely ban other book stores. Wouldn't that be more fair? Or maybe Apple should make an iBook "e-book" device, that's the EXACT same thing, but not allow other book stores? There are other platforms that are more closed than Apple's, but for some reason only Apple is evil and controlling!?
You're using the same incorrect argument that anonymouse is using. Apple has not only allowed, but encouraged these apps to work the way they have. Their Ads for the iPhone even showed the Kindle app. That proved they knew exactly what it was doing, and approved of it. That Apple is now selling books isn't a good excuse to change the rules for everyone else.
What both you and he forget, or don't understand here, is that Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and Sony are retailers of books. Apple is a retailer of books. I've tried really hard here to show why what Apple is trying to do won't work, and isn't fair.
Apple will be more than removing all the money these companies get from the publishers. This will actually make the book they buy more expensive than what they can sell it for. They would incur a loss on every sale. Not a good way to do business. Meanwhile, Apple would incur no such problem selling their own. This could be restraint of trade, of Apple taking advantage of their position of owning the pipes, or at least some of them, as they would be charging unnecessarily.
I know you guys want Apple to be able to make as money as possible, but this isn't how they should be doing it.
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Hmm... not sure if referring to physical vs. digital in this argument? With physical media there are materials, manufacturing, printing, and shipping. That's overhead that doesn't exist with digital. So there is a huge cost difference.
While you may be using your own store to sell items through, you're still using Apple's massive distribution channel (i.e. platform) to sell through.
Again, it has nothing to do with physical media or not. Goods are goods, and a product is a product. What's the difference between a program that comes in a box, and the same one that you just download? Nothing! Apple's servers aren't being used to sell these books, and so Apple shouldn't require that they also be sold in app.
That's one of the oddest things I've heard of. They know they can't stop out of app purchases like this, so they add the requirement to also sell in app.
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Hmmm... apparently you missed something in my post, because that was not my philosophy. My thinking leans more towards others making a profit at Apple's expense and then, only when they are a direct competitor to what Apple offers. See, for every Kindle book sold through the Kindle iOS app is a sales lost for the same book in the iBook Store. Free apps only make money through advertising (which Apple has the ability to extract revenue through iAd).
Did you really read what I said about this? Or did you just skim? I've bought over a hundred books on my iPad so far since early May. Most of those books were bought either from Barnes& Noble or Amazon. Why? Because Apple has a miserable book store! There are very few books in it. They've caused this problem, and now they're trying to profit off others who have been more successful at it. They should fix their own problems instead, and make up with all the publishers they've been giving a hard time to. Amazingly enough, other booksellers are making a profit doing this.
The reason why Apple gave way on iAd, was because it looked as though the government was going to investigate them for restraint of trade. What Apple wanted to do was apparently illegal in allowing only their own agency.
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Personally, I don't agree with what Apple is doing, but I do understand why they feel the need to. Just a reminder, this in no way affects the user, except forces these other companies to offer the user direct sales and downloads in the app. What they've been doing before is pushing the user to a web site from within the app to make the purchase, then syncing with the server to gain access to the content. That is a loop hole to get around Apple's In-App-Purchasing rule.
Furthermore, these companies should be able to create a free "reader" that doesn't give access or link to the store from within the app. It would only allow you to access/sync and then view that content. Apple can't do anything about that.
This does affect the user. The average user doesn't spend time on forums, and doesn't understand any of this. They just see what they see. If Amazon, for example, needs to raise prices for in app sales by 30% to make up for the loss, that's the price people will see. If they take the loss, then people will see that price. People rather do what is simplest. If in app prices are too high, it will drive them to Apple's poorer store. When people can't find the books there, they will get pissed at Amazon for higher prices, and won't understand why it's happening. They may not even understand they can go to Amazon's own store instead. That's the real world.
What you suggest about a reader is silly. What would be gained? A couple of more steps for the consumer to jump through? The end result would be the same, except for lower satisfaction with Apple's products, as they won't have to do that on other platforms.
So you guys are right, let's drive customers away from Apple. Good thinking!
They don't use Store Kit, and "real world goods" are specifically excluded -- prohibited, in fact -- from the App Store's revenue sharing model so there's nothing that I'm aware of that's wrong with what Fresh Direct's app does.
Again, does the purchase of groceries enhance the functionality (as opposed to the utility) of the App? No. Does the purchase of an eBook enhance the functionality of a reader app? Yes.
I'm surprised and a little dumbfounded why people are having such a hard time grasping all of this? \
You keep expanding the argument. Let's keep it to the point.
It's not a loophole. If Apple thought it was, they wouldn't have allowed it in the first place, as i've already noted.
What likely happened is that, as I also already noted, their book sales are dismal, due to their own fault, and they want to make it up from others' sales, that are out of their system, something the rules allow.
Loopholes are not immediately closed...otherwise they aren't loopholes but permissible actions (in spirit and the law).
Show that their book sales are dismal. There is one author which reports his iBooks sales are much lower than Kindle sales...it was widely reported but it was only one data point.
"A survey of 6,250 frequent book buyers conducted by the Codex Group in early November found more book buyers acquiring their e-books for the iPad from Amazon's Kindle store rather than through Apple's iBookstore, with the Kindle store accounting for 40% of e-book sales for the iPad and the iBookstore 29% (one factor limiting sales through the iBookstore is that Random House e-books are not directly available there because RH is not using the agency model)."
Not having RH is both Apple and RH fault. The agency model and the publisher's revolt is what pressured Amazon from completely taking over the ebook market and locking everyone into the Kindle format. This was the publisher's greatest fear that Amazon would dominate the ebook market like Apple does music market with iTunes. This is documented in the New Yorker article from last year. RH just got a free ride since the other 5 pitched in and it didn't need to in order to check Amazon.
Given the iPad is probably now the dominant ebook reader 29% of iPad sales doesn't indicate "dismal" sales. Would they like a larger slice of the pie? Sure. But this is more about fairness. Neither Amazon nor B&N allows foreign book stores on their devices at all. So why should Apple allow them to have a free ride on its?
By definition, a loophole is a way to exploit something through a condition that wasn't taken into account. So, the argument that, if it were a loophole, they wouldn't have allowed it, doesn't really make sense.
You're really straining here! Apple has allowed book apps for years now. The Kindle app was around long before the iPad. If Apple didn't approve of it, why would we have seen it being featured in Apple's Tv commercials, and in their app store? You think somehow that Apple didn't notice that Amazon was actually selling books through their store using the app to get there and back? You don't think Apple saw any of the dozens of articles about how Apple wasn't allowing Amazon to sell books directly through the store without their cut and so amazon decided to do it this way? You think Apple was oblivious to all of this for years, and only now woke up to it?
You're kidding, right? A loophole isn't something that can't be fixed quickly. It's also something that Apple could have prevented, but didn't want to, until now.
Why? Because Apple saw a big benefit before with the way it was, and now sees a big benefit to change the rules.
I hope the preparations included a new building, lots of new staff and some serious it infrastructure as well as the development of the app itself. That is one helluva lot of money.
They have hired a staff of 100 people and have, no doubt, built out the infrastructure to deliver a daily publication.
Ignoring political bias, this looks like a reasonable effort at a reasonable price. I hope it encourages other publishers to consider this as a viable method for delivering periodic publications.
Nothing whatsoever has changed in what I'm saying. Perhaps your understanding of it has changed, but the goalposts remain firmly in the same place they originally occupied.
However, I have no idea what you are trying to say in this sentence: "Your test was for usefulness of the free app without having to buy something to make it so."
Here is a quote from you, so that you may remember what you said, and why my sentence makes sense, and why you ARE changing the goalposts:
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Without those "book" purchases it's pretty much useless, which is the entire issue:
As I keep pointing out, you don't HAVE to purchase anything to use these apps. That passes your test of the app being useful without having to purchase anything. I hope I don't have to keep looking back to quote from your posts.
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My argument is that the App Store is built on a revenue sharing model. For truly free apps, there is no revenue, therefore, nothing to share. For "free" shell apps downloading free content, there is also no revenue, therefore, nothing to share. For "free" shell apps, like eBook readers, downloading paid content, there is revenue, and that revenue ought to be part of the revenue sharing model, not "hidden" through some means that allows the app publisher to profit from it but not fairly shoulder the cost burden of the App Store.
While you keep saying this, it doesn't make it so. As long as none of Apple's resources are being used to download your purchases, Apple shouldn't be getting a cut. And the fact that Apple seems to know that they can't prevent these out of app purchases legally, they're adding this silly requirement. In the long run, the only one who will be hurt is Apple.
John Gruber today suggested a credit card processing fee of about 5%. that sounds good to me. The point was made that in app purchasing costs Apple much less than does app purchasing itself. I can't say if that's correct. But if it is, then Apple should accommodate it.
It is the most likely case that Apple seeks to gain only the payment processing plus a bit of overhead. Apple likely pays 2% or less for processing plus a transaction fee. I think Gruber is right about what other vendors will pay for in-app content purchases except that I would characterize it as "less than 5%". The actual cost to someone like Amazon is relatively small - they will not be paying any payment processing fee to their processor but will instead pay Apple a processing fee plus a bit more.
I would agree, except the difference between Jon Stewart and other pundits like Limbaugh or Beck is Jon is a satirist that doesn't take himself seriously and expects you to form your own opinions of the world, with a little comedy thrown in there for fun. Everyone else explicitly tells you what they think and what you should think as well, and talk about how everyone else is wrong. That's the difference.
What about us poor schmucks in the middle? lol.
Wrong about Jon Stewart. He does take himself seriously and has a very serious opinion about all the 'jokes' he makes. He just wraps his serious thoughts, opinions, and beliefs in comedy. There are many ways to make a cake, but in the end you still end up with a cake.
BTW Beck also uses comedy in a lot of his opinions, but is a lot more emotional than Stewart. Please don't make it like Jon Stewart has not agenda, because he has as much of an agenda as ANY other opinionated journalist.
While you keep saying this, it doesn't make it so. As long as none of Apple's resources are being used to download your purchases,
You mean other than Apple developing the platform they are using? Let Amazon sell their wares exclusively on Kindle and Sony on their own hardware.
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Apple shouldn't be getting a cut. And the fact that Apple seems to know that they can't prevent these out of app purchases legally, they're adding this silly requirement. In the long run, the only one who will be hurt is Apple.
Not if Amazon loses access to the iPad and iPhone for Kindle book sales. They lose revenue too. Granted that Android and WP7 are winners is Apple can't sign RH. On the other hand Apple can go cut throat and offer a 80%/20% split with publishers and see if Amazon dares to match. At some point RH will sign because the deal will be too lucrative to pass up.
Do you think though it is worth $40 a year or can you get this information easily for free (advert supported of course)? Is there a lot of advertising on there?
No matter what your politics, to get as much content as The Daily is providing at 14¢ a day, I would only hope that the rest of the media would do the same.
Having access to the original article, remember that The Daily like most true newspapers, write their own material, not copy, edit, summarize, bastardize, prostitute, etc., other works. And as readers, we has the option of accepting the editorial policies of any publication going in.
In any event, getting complete information as published for free is not easy. We have turned into snippetters. We end up knowing little about a lot of things, or a lot of nothing.
With respect to the amount of advertising, it didn't appear to be much. If anything, ads are beautifully done. In fact, so much so, that they, as other iPad mag apps do,tend to entice one to read and explore the ads that we normally would shy from in the 'flat' print versions.
As Jobs stated, people are willing to buy content over blogging. This type and pricing strategy could help that paradigm significantly.
For the next two weeks The Daily is free. That is an offer that every iPad owner shouldn't refuse.
Loopholes are not immediately closed...otherwise they aren't loopholes but permissible actions (in spirit and the law).
Show that their book sales are dismal. There is one author which reports his iBooks sales are much lower than Kindle sales...it was widely reported but it was only one data point.
"A survey of 6,250 frequent book buyers conducted by the Codex Group in early November found more book buyers acquiring their e-books for the iPad from Amazon's Kindle store rather than through Apple's iBookstore, with the Kindle store accounting for 40% of e-book sales for the iPad and the iBookstore 29% (one factor limiting sales through the iBookstore is that Random House e-books are not directly available there because RH is not using the agency model)."
Not having RH is both Apple and RH fault. The agency model and the publisher's revolt is what pressured Amazon from completely taking over the ebook market and locking everyone into the Kindle format. This was the publisher's greatest fear that Amazon would dominate the ebook market like Apple does music market with iTunes. This is documented in the New Yorker article from last year. RH just got a free ride since the other 5 pitched in and it didn't need to in order to check Amazon.
Given the iPad is probably now the dominant ebook reader 29% of iPad sales doesn't indicate "dismal" sales. Would they like a larger slice of the pie? Sure. But this is more about fairness. Neither Amazon nor B&N allows foreign book stores on their devices at all. So why should Apple allow them to have a free ride on its?
29% is dismal. It's Apple's platform. If their sales after this time are just 29% that should tell youngish it's dismal. It could be a lot better, but there are too few books there, and that's why it's dismal.
I read the articles you've linked to a long time ago. The fact that Amazon still has much more books shows that Apple's model isn't working too well.
Apple needs to have as many other book stores on the iPad as possible, because it isn't a small, lightweight, and cheap book reader. The more things people can do on it, the more Apple will sell. There are people as loyal to Amazon and B&N as to Apple. If you buy all of your books from Amazon, and you get an iPad, it follows that you may want to continue buying your books from them. And I know some people with both a Kindle and an iPad. What then?
You're using the same incorrect argument that anonymouse is using. ...
Apple will be more than removing all the money these companies get from the publishers. This will actually make the book they buy more expensive than what they can sell it for. They would incur a loss on every sale. Not a good way to do business. Meanwhile, Apple would incur no such problem selling their own. This could be restraint of trade, of Apple taking advantage of their position of owning the pipes, or at least some of them, as they would be charging unnecessarily. ...
Yes, yes, and we think your argument is incorrect, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.
However, as I originally pointed out, I don't believe it's Apple's intention to apply the 30/70 revenue split in this instance. I think they almost certainly have established, or will establish, some other revenue split for periodical publishers and that they intend to also establish a separate revenue split for eBook distributors. But, since Amazon and others are behaving parasitically and are essentially operating under the rationale you express, Apple doesn't have any choice but to play hardball with them to get them to the negotiating table. This is exactly what they did with periodical publishers, and it looks like they've come up with a system that actually works for everyone. I don't see why you think that won't be the case in this instance. (Yeah, I know your argument about how iBooks sucks so Apple wants to steal revenue from the others, but I don't think much of that argument.)
There's no restraint of trade or any other illegal practice involved in requiring App Store app publishers to offer in-app purchasing for content they are selling elsewhere. It's part of the developer agreement and it's less "restraining" than many of Amazon's practices, and they will all end up benefiting, while certain parasitic companies will no longer be able to shift the burden of App Store operating costs onto other developers.
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Originally Posted by melgross
Again, it has nothing to do with physical media or not. Goods are goods, and a product is a product. What's the difference between a program that comes in a box, and the same one that you just download? Nothing! Apple's servers aren't being used to sell these books, and so Apple shouldn't require that they also be sold in app.
I feel like we're talking in circles at this point. There is certainly a difference between physical and digital "products", especially when those digital products are DRM'd and only useable within a specific app. There is certainly a very real difference between an eBook and a physical book, in how you can use it, what you can do with it, and so on. But, I've already provided a rather concise definition between app content and physical goods: the former enhances the functionality of the app, the latter does not.
It has nothing to do with whether Apple's servers are being used to deliver the content. It has everything to do with the fact that Apple's resources are being used to deliver the app that is generating revenue for the app publisher that they are not sharing per their contractual agreements. And, as you no doubt are aware, almost all contracts contain a clause, something to the effect that failure to enforce specific terms of the contract shall not be construed to be a waiver of those terms, and it would surprise me very much to find that the iOS developer agreement does not. So, just because some have gotten away with violating their contract for some time is no reason they should be allowed to continue to.
I think there's a fairly straightforward test to determining which sorts of purchases should be part of the cost sharing and which ought to be exempt:
Does the purchase enhance the functionality of the app?
Case A: Purchasing an air conditioner, or a physical book, does not enhance the functionality of the app. The app does what it does and the purchase has no effect on it.
Case B: Purchasing an eBook, or game levels, clearly adds functionality to the app itself: the making available to the user, within the app, content the user can interact with.
Case A should be exempt. Case B ought not be.
This sums up the distinction rather well. I really don't understand why some feel that Apple should not be entitled to an opportunity to recover some costs for free apps. Many would be happy to not have to provide their credit card info to another organization.
29% is dismal. It's Apple's platform. If their sales after this time are just 29% that should tell youngish it's dismal. It could be a lot better, but there are too few books there, and that's why it's dismal.
Dismal is a 60:1 ratio.
29% of ebook sales on the dominant reader isn't great but isn't bad considering a year ago Amazon had the unassailable dominant position and was about to drop the hammer on publishers.
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I read the articles you've linked to a long time ago. The fact that Amazon still has much more books shows that Apple's model isn't working too well.
It worked perfectly in that Amazon is not the dominant player anymore and Apple has a decent revenue stream from ebook sales it didn't have before. Apple has deals with 5 publishers and sin't likely to get locked out of content should Amazon pull the Kindle app and have the power to force publishers to stay away from the iOS ecosystem. Amazon doesn't have that kind of market power and it might have had it without the iBook store to counter balance it.
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Apple needs to have as many other book stores on the iPad as possible, because it isn't a small, lightweight, and cheap book reader.
Why? Will more book stores really sell more iPads? No. It is a decent ebook reader but that's not a primary selling point but a secondary one.
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The more things people can do on it, the more Apple will sell. There are people as loyal to Amazon and B&N as to Apple. If you buy all of your books from Amazon, and you get an iPad, it follows that you may want to continue buying your books from them. And I know some people with both a Kindle and an iPad. What then?
If they have both a Kindle and an iPad they read their books on the Kindle (or Nook). If I want to read a book on the iPad I buy from the iBook store or load a compatible file.
If Amazon wants to sell books on the largest tablet device...they should pony up. And Apple's requirements aren't all that horrible anyway. Just that if you provide content purchases that you also provide an in-app purchase mechanism.
If the in app price is higher than the web site price...well then folks will use the web site, wont they?
You mean other than Apple developing the platform they are using? Let Amazon sell their wares exclusively on Kindle and Sony on their own hardware.
What does this have to do with Apple developing their platform? Apple did that in order to sell hardware. They're selling tens of billions of dollars in hardware. The costs of this are very small in comparison. It also helps to sell Apple hardware. Otherwise Amazon might be selling a lot more Kindles, and Apple, less iPads. What is more important, small amounts of money from book sales from Amazon, or the money from iPad and iPhone/Touch sales? I think the latter.
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Not if Amazon loses access to the iPad and iPhone for Kindle book sales. They lose revenue too. Granted that Android and WP7 are winners is Apple can't sign RH. On the other hand Apple can go cut throat and offer a 80%/20% split with publishers and see if Amazon dares to match. At some point RH will sign because the deal will be too lucrative to pass up.
What will happen is that more Kindles will be sold, and Nooks.
If Apple was going to go 80/20 then they wouldn't need to squeeze Amazon, B&N and Sony. They'd be losing much more money that way.
Here is a quote from you, so that you may remember what you said, and why my sentence makes sense, and why you ARE changing the goalposts:
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Without those "book" purchases it's pretty much useless, which is the entire issue:
As I keep pointing out, you don't HAVE to purchase anything to use these apps. That passes your test of the app being useful without having to purchase anything. I hope I don't have to keep looking back to quote from your posts.
Oh, please, if your argument is going to hinge on taking a sentence out of all context, you might as well give it up right now.
Who's fault is it that the only way to install applications on iOS devices is through the App Store? Who's is the one who set the terms and conditions of publishing on the App Store? Who set the annual developer's fee in order to post and maintain your own application on the App Store? I'll give you a hint .
Yes, Apple maintains the platform. They're also the ones who set the terms, and up until now, everyone's been playing fine by those terms. You seem to think Apple is being exploited in some way. They're not. The ones being exploited are the developers, of whom, have been largely responsible for Apple's iOS success. And now, in return, Apple wants to take a cut from everyone that's doing business on their platform. Do they have the right to? That's a separate question. Should they do it? I don't believe its in the best interest of consumers or developers to have Apple start taking such a large percentage of their business for the privilege of running on iOS, especially when Apple was content with them just doing their thing in the past.
Can you please provide authoritative proof of Apple extracting a "large percentage"? Based on The Daily launch, it appears that Apple's cut will be rather small.
You mean other than Apple developing the platform they are using? Let Amazon sell their wares exclusively on Kindle and Sony on their own hardware.
What does this have to do with Apple developing their platform? Apple did that in order to sell hardware. They're selling tens of billions of dollars in hardware. The costs of this are very small in comparison. It also helps to sell Apple hardware. Otherwise Amazon might be selling a lot more Kindles, and Apple, less iPads. What is more important, small amounts of money from book sales from Amazon, or the money from iPad and iPhone/Touch sales? I think the latter.
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Not if Amazon loses access to the iPad and iPhone for Kindle book sales. They lose revenue too. Granted that Android and WP7 are winners is Apple can't sign RH. On the other hand Apple can go cut throat and offer a 80%/20% split with publishers and see if Amazon dares to match. At some point RH will sign because the deal will be too lucrative to pass up.
What will happen is that more Kindles will be sold, and Nooks.
If Apple was going to go 80/20 then they wouldn't need to squeeze Amazon, B&N and Sony. They'd be losing much more money that way.
What you two guys are forgetting is that this is just going to annoy consumers. It may have no affect on where books are sold. Apple is just adding something. They apparently can't take the current model away. Consumers will become confused and angry, but eventually, after some bad press for Apple, the problem will go away and everything will be back where it was. That's why this entire thing is stupid.
What does this have to do with Apple developing their platform? Apple did that in order to sell hardware. They're selling tens of billions of dollars in hardware. The costs of this are very small in comparison. It also helps to sell Apple hardware. Otherwise Amazon might be selling a lot more Kindles, and Apple, less iPads. What is more important, small amounts of money from book sales from Amazon, or the money from iPad and iPhone/Touch sales? I think the latter...
What's fair, that big companies like Amazon or Sony avoid sharing revenue while small developers fully shoulder the cost of running the App Store, or that there be some degree of equity in what all developers pay relative to their revenue?
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Absolutely not!
This is mainly about digital content being purchased from and delivered to an iOS device. Apple doesn't sell air conditioners. Why would Apple be worried about users buying air conditioners? Apple does sell digital books. They should worry about their competition getting a free ride on their own platform. They are essentially giving their competition an advantage. Does Amazon allow other book stores on the Kindle device? Nope. So maybe Apple should just completely ban other book stores. Wouldn't that be more fair? Or maybe Apple should make an iBook "e-book" device, that's the EXACT same thing, but not allow other book stores? There are other platforms that are more closed than Apple's, but for some reason only Apple is evil and controlling!?
You're using the same incorrect argument that anonymouse is using. Apple has not only allowed, but encouraged these apps to work the way they have. Their Ads for the iPhone even showed the Kindle app. That proved they knew exactly what it was doing, and approved of it. That Apple is now selling books isn't a good excuse to change the rules for everyone else.
What both you and he forget, or don't understand here, is that Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and Sony are retailers of books. Apple is a retailer of books. I've tried really hard here to show why what Apple is trying to do won't work, and isn't fair.
Apple will be more than removing all the money these companies get from the publishers. This will actually make the book they buy more expensive than what they can sell it for. They would incur a loss on every sale. Not a good way to do business. Meanwhile, Apple would incur no such problem selling their own. This could be restraint of trade, of Apple taking advantage of their position of owning the pipes, or at least some of them, as they would be charging unnecessarily.
I know you guys want Apple to be able to make as money as possible, but this isn't how they should be doing it.
Hmm... not sure if referring to physical vs. digital in this argument? With physical media there are materials, manufacturing, printing, and shipping. That's overhead that doesn't exist with digital. So there is a huge cost difference.
While you may be using your own store to sell items through, you're still using Apple's massive distribution channel (i.e. platform) to sell through.
Again, it has nothing to do with physical media or not. Goods are goods, and a product is a product. What's the difference between a program that comes in a box, and the same one that you just download? Nothing! Apple's servers aren't being used to sell these books, and so Apple shouldn't require that they also be sold in app.
That's one of the oddest things I've heard of. They know they can't stop out of app purchases like this, so they add the requirement to also sell in app.
Hmmm... apparently you missed something in my post, because that was not my philosophy. My thinking leans more towards others making a profit at Apple's expense and then, only when they are a direct competitor to what Apple offers. See, for every Kindle book sold through the Kindle iOS app is a sales lost for the same book in the iBook Store. Free apps only make money through advertising (which Apple has the ability to extract revenue through iAd).
Did you really read what I said about this? Or did you just skim? I've bought over a hundred books on my iPad so far since early May. Most of those books were bought either from Barnes& Noble or Amazon. Why? Because Apple has a miserable book store! There are very few books in it. They've caused this problem, and now they're trying to profit off others who have been more successful at it. They should fix their own problems instead, and make up with all the publishers they've been giving a hard time to. Amazingly enough, other booksellers are making a profit doing this.
The reason why Apple gave way on iAd, was because it looked as though the government was going to investigate them for restraint of trade. What Apple wanted to do was apparently illegal in allowing only their own agency.
Personally, I don't agree with what Apple is doing, but I do understand why they feel the need to. Just a reminder, this in no way affects the user, except forces these other companies to offer the user direct sales and downloads in the app. What they've been doing before is pushing the user to a web site from within the app to make the purchase, then syncing with the server to gain access to the content. That is a loop hole to get around Apple's In-App-Purchasing rule.
Furthermore, these companies should be able to create a free "reader" that doesn't give access or link to the store from within the app. It would only allow you to access/sync and then view that content. Apple can't do anything about that.
This does affect the user. The average user doesn't spend time on forums, and doesn't understand any of this. They just see what they see. If Amazon, for example, needs to raise prices for in app sales by 30% to make up for the loss, that's the price people will see. If they take the loss, then people will see that price. People rather do what is simplest. If in app prices are too high, it will drive them to Apple's poorer store. When people can't find the books there, they will get pissed at Amazon for higher prices, and won't understand why it's happening. They may not even understand they can go to Amazon's own store instead. That's the real world.
What you suggest about a reader is silly. What would be gained? A couple of more steps for the consumer to jump through? The end result would be the same, except for lower satisfaction with Apple's products, as they won't have to do that on other platforms.
So you guys are right, let's drive customers away from Apple. Good thinking!
They don't use Store Kit, and "real world goods" are specifically excluded -- prohibited, in fact -- from the App Store's revenue sharing model so there's nothing that I'm aware of that's wrong with what Fresh Direct's app does.
Again, does the purchase of groceries enhance the functionality (as opposed to the utility) of the App? No. Does the purchase of an eBook enhance the functionality of a reader app? Yes.
I'm surprised and a little dumbfounded why people are having such a hard time grasping all of this?
You keep expanding the argument. Let's keep it to the point.
It's not a loophole. If Apple thought it was, they wouldn't have allowed it in the first place, as i've already noted.
What likely happened is that, as I also already noted, their book sales are dismal, due to their own fault, and they want to make it up from others' sales, that are out of their system, something the rules allow.
Loopholes are not immediately closed...otherwise they aren't loopholes but permissible actions (in spirit and the law).
Show that their book sales are dismal. There is one author which reports his iBooks sales are much lower than Kindle sales...it was widely reported but it was only one data point.
Initial sales:
http://www.teleread.com/ebooks/april...-the-agency-5/
A later survey indicates decent sales:
"A survey of 6,250 frequent book buyers conducted by the Codex Group in early November found more book buyers acquiring their e-books for the iPad from Amazon's Kindle store rather than through Apple's iBookstore, with the Kindle store accounting for 40% of e-book sales for the iPad and the iBookstore 29% (one factor limiting sales through the iBookstore is that Random House e-books are not directly available there because RH is not using the agency model)."
http://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/p...-its-edge.html
Not having RH is both Apple and RH fault. The agency model and the publisher's revolt is what pressured Amazon from completely taking over the ebook market and locking everyone into the Kindle format. This was the publisher's greatest fear that Amazon would dominate the ebook market like Apple does music market with iTunes. This is documented in the New Yorker article from last year. RH just got a free ride since the other 5 pitched in and it didn't need to in order to check Amazon.
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2...urrentPage=all
Given the iPad is probably now the dominant ebook reader 29% of iPad sales doesn't indicate "dismal" sales. Would they like a larger slice of the pie? Sure. But this is more about fairness. Neither Amazon nor B&N allows foreign book stores on their devices at all. So why should Apple allow them to have a free ride on its?
By definition, a loophole is a way to exploit something through a condition that wasn't taken into account. So, the argument that, if it were a loophole, they wouldn't have allowed it, doesn't really make sense.
You're really straining here! Apple has allowed book apps for years now. The Kindle app was around long before the iPad. If Apple didn't approve of it, why would we have seen it being featured in Apple's Tv commercials, and in their app store? You think somehow that Apple didn't notice that Amazon was actually selling books through their store using the app to get there and back? You don't think Apple saw any of the dozens of articles about how Apple wasn't allowing Amazon to sell books directly through the store without their cut and so amazon decided to do it this way? You think Apple was oblivious to all of this for years, and only now woke up to it?
You're kidding, right? A loophole isn't something that can't be fixed quickly. It's also something that Apple could have prevented, but didn't want to, until now.
Why? Because Apple saw a big benefit before with the way it was, and now sees a big benefit to change the rules.
I hope the preparations included a new building, lots of new staff and some serious it infrastructure as well as the development of the app itself. That is one helluva lot of money.
They have hired a staff of 100 people and have, no doubt, built out the infrastructure to deliver a daily publication.
Ignoring political bias, this looks like a reasonable effort at a reasonable price. I hope it encourages other publishers to consider this as a viable method for delivering periodic publications.
Nothing whatsoever has changed in what I'm saying. Perhaps your understanding of it has changed, but the goalposts remain firmly in the same place they originally occupied.
However, I have no idea what you are trying to say in this sentence: "Your test was for usefulness of the free app without having to buy something to make it so."
Here is a quote from you, so that you may remember what you said, and why my sentence makes sense, and why you ARE changing the goalposts:
Without those "book" purchases it's pretty much useless, which is the entire issue:
As I keep pointing out, you don't HAVE to purchase anything to use these apps. That passes your test of the app being useful without having to purchase anything. I hope I don't have to keep looking back to quote from your posts.
My argument is that the App Store is built on a revenue sharing model. For truly free apps, there is no revenue, therefore, nothing to share. For "free" shell apps downloading free content, there is also no revenue, therefore, nothing to share. For "free" shell apps, like eBook readers, downloading paid content, there is revenue, and that revenue ought to be part of the revenue sharing model, not "hidden" through some means that allows the app publisher to profit from it but not fairly shoulder the cost burden of the App Store.
While you keep saying this, it doesn't make it so. As long as none of Apple's resources are being used to download your purchases, Apple shouldn't be getting a cut. And the fact that Apple seems to know that they can't prevent these out of app purchases legally, they're adding this silly requirement. In the long run, the only one who will be hurt is Apple.
John Gruber today suggested a credit card processing fee of about 5%. that sounds good to me. The point was made that in app purchasing costs Apple much less than does app purchasing itself. I can't say if that's correct. But if it is, then Apple should accommodate it.
It is the most likely case that Apple seeks to gain only the payment processing plus a bit of overhead. Apple likely pays 2% or less for processing plus a transaction fee. I think Gruber is right about what other vendors will pay for in-app content purchases except that I would characterize it as "less than 5%". The actual cost to someone like Amazon is relatively small - they will not be paying any payment processing fee to their processor but will instead pay Apple a processing fee plus a bit more.
I would agree, except the difference between Jon Stewart and other pundits like Limbaugh or Beck is Jon is a satirist that doesn't take himself seriously and expects you to form your own opinions of the world, with a little comedy thrown in there for fun. Everyone else explicitly tells you what they think and what you should think as well, and talk about how everyone else is wrong. That's the difference.
What about us poor schmucks in the middle? lol.
Wrong about Jon Stewart. He does take himself seriously and has a very serious opinion about all the 'jokes' he makes. He just wraps his serious thoughts, opinions, and beliefs in comedy. There are many ways to make a cake, but in the end you still end up with a cake.
BTW Beck also uses comedy in a lot of his opinions, but is a lot more emotional than Stewart. Please don't make it like Jon Stewart has not agenda, because he has as much of an agenda as ANY other opinionated journalist.
While you keep saying this, it doesn't make it so. As long as none of Apple's resources are being used to download your purchases,
You mean other than Apple developing the platform they are using? Let Amazon sell their wares exclusively on Kindle and Sony on their own hardware.
Apple shouldn't be getting a cut. And the fact that Apple seems to know that they can't prevent these out of app purchases legally, they're adding this silly requirement. In the long run, the only one who will be hurt is Apple.
Not if Amazon loses access to the iPad and iPhone for Kindle book sales. They lose revenue too. Granted that Android and WP7 are winners is Apple can't sign RH. On the other hand Apple can go cut throat and offer a 80%/20% split with publishers and see if Amazon dares to match. At some point RH will sign because the deal will be too lucrative to pass up.
Thanks for the info.
Do you think though it is worth $40 a year or can you get this information easily for free (advert supported of course)? Is there a lot of advertising on there?
No matter what your politics, to get as much content as The Daily is providing at 14¢ a day, I would only hope that the rest of the media would do the same.
Having access to the original article, remember that The Daily like most true newspapers, write their own material, not copy, edit, summarize, bastardize, prostitute, etc., other works. And as readers, we has the option of accepting the editorial policies of any publication going in.
In any event, getting complete information as published for free is not easy. We have turned into snippetters. We end up knowing little about a lot of things, or a lot of nothing.
With respect to the amount of advertising, it didn't appear to be much. If anything, ads are beautifully done. In fact, so much so, that they, as other iPad mag apps do,tend to entice one to read and explore the ads that we normally would shy from in the 'flat' print versions.
As Jobs stated, people are willing to buy content over blogging. This type and pricing strategy could help that paradigm significantly.
For the next two weeks The Daily is free. That is an offer that every iPad owner shouldn't refuse.
Loopholes are not immediately closed...otherwise they aren't loopholes but permissible actions (in spirit and the law).
Show that their book sales are dismal. There is one author which reports his iBooks sales are much lower than Kindle sales...it was widely reported but it was only one data point.
Initial sales:
http://www.teleread.com/ebooks/april...-the-agency-5/
A later survey indicates decent sales:
"A survey of 6,250 frequent book buyers conducted by the Codex Group in early November found more book buyers acquiring their e-books for the iPad from Amazon's Kindle store rather than through Apple's iBookstore, with the Kindle store accounting for 40% of e-book sales for the iPad and the iBookstore 29% (one factor limiting sales through the iBookstore is that Random House e-books are not directly available there because RH is not using the agency model)."
http://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/p...-its-edge.html
Not having RH is both Apple and RH fault. The agency model and the publisher's revolt is what pressured Amazon from completely taking over the ebook market and locking everyone into the Kindle format. This was the publisher's greatest fear that Amazon would dominate the ebook market like Apple does music market with iTunes. This is documented in the New Yorker article from last year. RH just got a free ride since the other 5 pitched in and it didn't need to in order to check Amazon.
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2...urrentPage=all
Given the iPad is probably now the dominant ebook reader 29% of iPad sales doesn't indicate "dismal" sales. Would they like a larger slice of the pie? Sure. But this is more about fairness. Neither Amazon nor B&N allows foreign book stores on their devices at all. So why should Apple allow them to have a free ride on its?
29% is dismal. It's Apple's platform. If their sales after this time are just 29% that should tell youngish it's dismal. It could be a lot better, but there are too few books there, and that's why it's dismal.
I read the articles you've linked to a long time ago. The fact that Amazon still has much more books shows that Apple's model isn't working too well.
Apple needs to have as many other book stores on the iPad as possible, because it isn't a small, lightweight, and cheap book reader. The more things people can do on it, the more Apple will sell. There are people as loyal to Amazon and B&N as to Apple. If you buy all of your books from Amazon, and you get an iPad, it follows that you may want to continue buying your books from them. And I know some people with both a Kindle and an iPad. What then?
I'm surprised and a little dumbfounded why people are having such a hard time grasping all of this?
Sorry I'm getting way off topic.
It has to do with this Apple document.
http://developer.apple.com/news/ios/...p_purchase.pdf
Scroll down to the the matrix of what is permitted to sell. Real world goods are not allowed according to this documentation.
You're using the same incorrect argument that anonymouse is using. ...
Apple will be more than removing all the money these companies get from the publishers. This will actually make the book they buy more expensive than what they can sell it for. They would incur a loss on every sale. Not a good way to do business. Meanwhile, Apple would incur no such problem selling their own. This could be restraint of trade, of Apple taking advantage of their position of owning the pipes, or at least some of them, as they would be charging unnecessarily. ...
Yes, yes, and we think your argument is incorrect, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.
However, as I originally pointed out, I don't believe it's Apple's intention to apply the 30/70 revenue split in this instance. I think they almost certainly have established, or will establish, some other revenue split for periodical publishers and that they intend to also establish a separate revenue split for eBook distributors. But, since Amazon and others are behaving parasitically and are essentially operating under the rationale you express, Apple doesn't have any choice but to play hardball with them to get them to the negotiating table. This is exactly what they did with periodical publishers, and it looks like they've come up with a system that actually works for everyone. I don't see why you think that won't be the case in this instance. (Yeah, I know your argument about how iBooks sucks so Apple wants to steal revenue from the others, but I don't think much of that argument.)
There's no restraint of trade or any other illegal practice involved in requiring App Store app publishers to offer in-app purchasing for content they are selling elsewhere. It's part of the developer agreement and it's less "restraining" than many of Amazon's practices, and they will all end up benefiting, while certain parasitic companies will no longer be able to shift the burden of App Store operating costs onto other developers.
Again, it has nothing to do with physical media or not. Goods are goods, and a product is a product. What's the difference between a program that comes in a box, and the same one that you just download? Nothing! Apple's servers aren't being used to sell these books, and so Apple shouldn't require that they also be sold in app.
I feel like we're talking in circles at this point. There is certainly a difference between physical and digital "products", especially when those digital products are DRM'd and only useable within a specific app. There is certainly a very real difference between an eBook and a physical book, in how you can use it, what you can do with it, and so on. But, I've already provided a rather concise definition between app content and physical goods: the former enhances the functionality of the app, the latter does not.
It has nothing to do with whether Apple's servers are being used to deliver the content. It has everything to do with the fact that Apple's resources are being used to deliver the app that is generating revenue for the app publisher that they are not sharing per their contractual agreements. And, as you no doubt are aware, almost all contracts contain a clause, something to the effect that failure to enforce specific terms of the contract shall not be construed to be a waiver of those terms, and it would surprise me very much to find that the iOS developer agreement does not. So, just because some have gotten away with violating their contract for some time is no reason they should be allowed to continue to.
I think there's a fairly straightforward test to determining which sorts of purchases should be part of the cost sharing and which ought to be exempt:
Does the purchase enhance the functionality of the app?
Case A: Purchasing an air conditioner, or a physical book, does not enhance the functionality of the app. The app does what it does and the purchase has no effect on it.
Case B: Purchasing an eBook, or game levels, clearly adds functionality to the app itself: the making available to the user, within the app, content the user can interact with.
Case A should be exempt. Case B ought not be.
This sums up the distinction rather well. I really don't understand why some feel that Apple should not be entitled to an opportunity to recover some costs for free apps. Many would be happy to not have to provide their credit card info to another organization.
29% is dismal. It's Apple's platform. If their sales after this time are just 29% that should tell youngish it's dismal. It could be a lot better, but there are too few books there, and that's why it's dismal.
Dismal is a 60:1 ratio.
29% of ebook sales on the dominant reader isn't great but isn't bad considering a year ago Amazon had the unassailable dominant position and was about to drop the hammer on publishers.
I read the articles you've linked to a long time ago. The fact that Amazon still has much more books shows that Apple's model isn't working too well.
It worked perfectly in that Amazon is not the dominant player anymore and Apple has a decent revenue stream from ebook sales it didn't have before. Apple has deals with 5 publishers and sin't likely to get locked out of content should Amazon pull the Kindle app and have the power to force publishers to stay away from the iOS ecosystem. Amazon doesn't have that kind of market power and it might have had it without the iBook store to counter balance it.
Apple needs to have as many other book stores on the iPad as possible, because it isn't a small, lightweight, and cheap book reader.
Why? Will more book stores really sell more iPads? No. It is a decent ebook reader but that's not a primary selling point but a secondary one.
The more things people can do on it, the more Apple will sell. There are people as loyal to Amazon and B&N as to Apple. If you buy all of your books from Amazon, and you get an iPad, it follows that you may want to continue buying your books from them. And I know some people with both a Kindle and an iPad. What then?
If they have both a Kindle and an iPad they read their books on the Kindle (or Nook). If I want to read a book on the iPad I buy from the iBook store or load a compatible file.
If Amazon wants to sell books on the largest tablet device...they should pony up. And Apple's requirements aren't all that horrible anyway. Just that if you provide content purchases that you also provide an in-app purchase mechanism.
If the in app price is higher than the web site price...well then folks will use the web site, wont they?
You mean other than Apple developing the platform they are using? Let Amazon sell their wares exclusively on Kindle and Sony on their own hardware.
What does this have to do with Apple developing their platform? Apple did that in order to sell hardware. They're selling tens of billions of dollars in hardware. The costs of this are very small in comparison. It also helps to sell Apple hardware. Otherwise Amazon might be selling a lot more Kindles, and Apple, less iPads. What is more important, small amounts of money from book sales from Amazon, or the money from iPad and iPhone/Touch sales? I think the latter.
Not if Amazon loses access to the iPad and iPhone for Kindle book sales. They lose revenue too. Granted that Android and WP7 are winners is Apple can't sign RH. On the other hand Apple can go cut throat and offer a 80%/20% split with publishers and see if Amazon dares to match. At some point RH will sign because the deal will be too lucrative to pass up.
What will happen is that more Kindles will be sold, and Nooks.
If Apple was going to go 80/20 then they wouldn't need to squeeze Amazon, B&N and Sony. They'd be losing much more money that way.
Here is a quote from you, so that you may remember what you said, and why my sentence makes sense, and why you ARE changing the goalposts:
Without those "book" purchases it's pretty much useless, which is the entire issue:
As I keep pointing out, you don't HAVE to purchase anything to use these apps. That passes your test of the app being useful without having to purchase anything. I hope I don't have to keep looking back to quote from your posts.
Oh, please, if your argument is going to hinge on taking a sentence out of all context, you might as well give it up right now.
Who's fault is it that the only way to install applications on iOS devices is through the App Store? Who's is the one who set the terms and conditions of publishing on the App Store? Who set the annual developer's fee in order to post and maintain your own application on the App Store? I'll give you a hint
Yes, Apple maintains the platform. They're also the ones who set the terms, and up until now, everyone's been playing fine by those terms. You seem to think Apple is being exploited in some way. They're not. The ones being exploited are the developers, of whom, have been largely responsible for Apple's iOS success. And now, in return, Apple wants to take a cut from everyone that's doing business on their platform. Do they have the right to? That's a separate question. Should they do it? I don't believe its in the best interest of consumers or developers to have Apple start taking such a large percentage of their business for the privilege of running on iOS, especially when Apple was content with them just doing their thing in the past.
Can you please provide authoritative proof of Apple extracting a "large percentage"? Based on The Daily launch, it appears that Apple's cut will be rather small.
You mean other than Apple developing the platform they are using? Let Amazon sell their wares exclusively on Kindle and Sony on their own hardware.
What does this have to do with Apple developing their platform? Apple did that in order to sell hardware. They're selling tens of billions of dollars in hardware. The costs of this are very small in comparison. It also helps to sell Apple hardware. Otherwise Amazon might be selling a lot more Kindles, and Apple, less iPads. What is more important, small amounts of money from book sales from Amazon, or the money from iPad and iPhone/Touch sales? I think the latter.
Not if Amazon loses access to the iPad and iPhone for Kindle book sales. They lose revenue too. Granted that Android and WP7 are winners is Apple can't sign RH. On the other hand Apple can go cut throat and offer a 80%/20% split with publishers and see if Amazon dares to match. At some point RH will sign because the deal will be too lucrative to pass up.
What will happen is that more Kindles will be sold, and Nooks.
If Apple was going to go 80/20 then they wouldn't need to squeeze Amazon, B&N and Sony. They'd be losing much more money that way.
What you two guys are forgetting is that this is just going to annoy consumers. It may have no affect on where books are sold. Apple is just adding something. They apparently can't take the current model away. Consumers will become confused and angry, but eventually, after some bad press for Apple, the problem will go away and everything will be back where it was. That's why this entire thing is stupid.
What does this have to do with Apple developing their platform? Apple did that in order to sell hardware. They're selling tens of billions of dollars in hardware. The costs of this are very small in comparison. It also helps to sell Apple hardware. Otherwise Amazon might be selling a lot more Kindles, and Apple, less iPads. What is more important, small amounts of money from book sales from Amazon, or the money from iPad and iPhone/Touch sales? I think the latter...
What's fair, that big companies like Amazon or Sony avoid sharing revenue while small developers fully shoulder the cost of running the App Store, or that there be some degree of equity in what all developers pay relative to their revenue?