I am in my first year of law school.And let me tell you I love it...
I Began University doing a double Degree of Info Systems and Law. Initally I thought I would dislike law, but decided I would give it a go and if I was not going well with it could drop out after the first year. Well I tell you, after one semester I am sitting on High grades in the subject and have dropped information systems. I am now oficially doing a Bachelor of Commerce combined with a Bachelor of Law...
I think the study of law is something a person will either like or truely dislike.
When making a decision about law school it is important to think of all the aspects involved with going to uni.
-In law you need alot of time to get all your work done
-you cannot afford to leave things to the last minute, nor can you not study till the day before an exam.
-COST! Books and 4/5 years cost alot (In australia we have 3 levels of charges for subjects studied at uni and LAW falls into band 1, and the only other subject to do so is medicne.
I have not covered everything, but I hope this helps you....
I am only a first year student so no doubt others will be able to further inform you.
My best friend acquired a new boyfriend shortly after we graduated from high school. The boy was several years older, a senior at Yale in fact. He was intent on becoming a lawyer. He graduated second in his class and in the fall started at Harvard Law. Towards the end of his first year he had a "revelation" and decided there was no truth in the law or anything but science and dropped out of Harvard. He also convinced my friend, who had been studying philosophy, political science, and economics and Boston University. For a year he studied physics in his parents' basement and then moved in with my friend. He stays in their apartment in Boston all day, studying physics while she goes to classes at BU. In the fall he hopes to take classes towards a bachelors in physics at a small, low-end, state school.
I would've actually given thought to becoming a lawyer had I possessed the funds to get a degree from a decent law school (and had there not be ga-gillions of lawyers out there already without jobs)....
This would most likely be the deal breaker for me, if anything.
[quote]Originally posted by Ari:
<strong>Towards the end of his first year he had a "revelation" and decided there was no truth in the law or anything but science and dropped out of Harvard.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's understandable. I had a similar experience when I abandoned CS and started studying mathematics several years ago. I imagined myself to be learning the "language of the universe." Now that I'm a jaded, cynical old codger, I still believe that mathematics is the language of the universe but I wonder if the universe is really worth listening to.
[quote]Originally posted by BuonRotto:
<strong>Yeah, that's what we need -- more lawyers! </strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes, but I'd be a really nice one.
[quote]Originally posted by Moogs:
<strong>I would've actually given thought to becoming a lawyer had I possessed the funds to get a degree from a decent law school (and had there not be ga-gillions of lawyers out there already without jobs)....</strong><hr></blockquote>
Are there? I haven't really done much research yet, but I noticed UT Law School (where I'd probably go) was boasting a 98% employment rate for their grads. At any rate, I can't imagine how it could be any worse than the fetid cesspool of unemployment that is the IT industry, where I'm presently benumbed (and I'm sick to bloody death of it.)
<strong>Lawywers are evil and most are assholes on top of that.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I guss that means I'm an asshole. Oh, evil too.
Of course, all phd's are trolls... <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
Anyway, on topic:
I graduated from law school a bit over a year ago, leaving the life sciences and it was the best thing I've done (professionally). The way I think of it is like this: Law school teaches you the Rules. Its almost like an Uber-government class. There is no more truth in Law than there is in any other human created institution, but if you go into it with your eyes open and are there to learn the process, you'll fare better than the idealogues who think law contains some platonic ideal buried under the professors' bullying. I went to law school because I thought I could have a more direct and positive impact on individuals helping people with their legal problems rather than being ensconced in a lab all day long. So far, I have been proven correct. Just a personal choice, not a value judgment.
As for cost, that's something you'll have to answer for yourself. I made 39k as a biologist, I took on about $60k in debt to become a lawyer, and my salary is $135k before bonus this year. The numbers worked out for me. Also, there aren't too many lawyers, just too many bad ones.
Lawywers are evil and most are assholes on top of that.<hr></blockquote>
Proof that not all PhD's are as wise as people think....
Josef:
I was mostly referring to the days when I was in college - there were unemployed lawyers all over the place. I can't imagine today's market is much better. You need to understand also that a 98% placement rate does not mean those people were all placed into law jobs. It's a good bet at least half of them are working in a business capacity somewhere and not a legal one. Most of the lawyers I know got business jobs right out of law school - and they all went to very good schools like Georgetown or Michigan.
You have to be the absolute best in your class or have very good connections to get any kind of high profile law job right out of school. Those Rainmaker stories are good for Hollywood but the fact is it rarely happens that way.
I am presently a senior in my undergraduate study of finance. I plan to go to law school next year. I have decided to blow a lot of money that I do not have and go to a premier law school such as Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, University of Chicago, or Northwestern. This is what I have learned about costs for these schools to obtain a J.D. You can figure that it will cost at least 30,000 a year for tuition alone. Housing is another thing. As far as jobs go, go to a good school, do well, you will get a good job. Not all lawyers are evil, or money hungry. Don't bother with the LSAT, or law school for that matter, if you are not good at logic and reading comprehension, that is what the test is all about. From what I understand, you do not need to be "pre-law" in order to go to law school. The professors that I have talked to at different schools reccomend that the students have a different background than law.
I know at least one UofC lawyer that is not evil. He's also not an asshole. Hummmm? I'll have to figure that one out. Paradox!
Lawyers are literally ruining the country and they refuse to admit that they are out of control. They ruin peoples lives and don't care. As far as I know there's not a single group of lawyers willing to speak out about it. So **** them. They are evil and immoral.
So what specific kind of work do you do, then? (when you're not busy kicking puppies and buggering small children with all of your lawyer friends, that is )
[quote]Originally posted by Moogs:
<strong>You need to understand also that a 98% placement rate does not mean those people were all placed into law jobs. It's a good bet at least half of them are working in a business capacity somewhere and not a legal one.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sure.
[quote]Originally posted by Moogs:
<strong>You have to be the absolute best in your class or have very good connections to get any kind of high profile law job right out of school. Those Rainmaker stories are good for Hollywood but the fact is it rarely happens that way.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's ok. I'm not looking for stardom, just a steady career with a nice salary.
<strong>I graduated from law school a bit over a year ago, leaving the life sciences and it was the best thing I've done (professionally).
* * *
As for cost, that's something you'll have to answer for yourself. I made 39k as a biologist, I took on about $60k in debt to become a lawyer, and my salary is $135k before bonus this year.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thoth2: You are obviously a model for what law school can be at the high end of the academic and professional performance spectrum. But from the little information you've disclosed, I would guess that you accomplished most of the following: did well undergrad, did well on the LSAT, got into a top-20 school, did very well your first year, got on law review, leveraged your science background and good GPA to land a summer associate job at a big IP firm, didn't disappoint as a summer associate, got an offer, accepted it, and are now making a killing and buying new cars for yourself and your wife.
I admire people who work that hard and consequently accomplish what you have accomplished. Personally, I didn't get quite that far. I was lucky enough to get into a top liberal arts college directly from public high school in Switzerland eight years ago. After that, everything went downhill. My undergraduate GPA was not up to snuff, I didn't do as well as I had hoped on the LSAT, I ended up going to a second-tier law school (where I have one year left) that dropped to the third tier this year, am in the bottom half of my law school class and didn't make law review. At this point, I have great work experience, significantly less money in the bank, and little chance of making anywhere close to six digits when I graduate next year. I don't regret going to law school in any way. But I do wish I could rewind my life eight years and do it over with significantly better numerical results.
So Josef, think about law school carefully. Law school is a fantastic education that will help you (to help others), regardless of whether you end up practicing law or not. But if you do go to law school, make sure you get into a top tier school, go there even if you have to incur debt, and above all, kill yourself to be near the top of your class and get on law review! If you do that, you'll be golden. Good luck!
Thoth2: You are obviously a model for what law school can be at the high end of the academic and professional performance spectrum. But from the little information you've disclosed, I would guess that you accomplished most of the following: did well undergrad, did well on the LSAT, got into a top-20 school, did very well your first year, got on law review, leveraged your science background and good GPA to land a summer associate job at a big IP firm, didn't disappoint as a summer associate, got an offer, accepted it, and are now making a killing ....
-snip-
So Josef, think about law school carefully.
Escher</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hmmm. Escher pretty much pegged my past. Its a bit scary actually. Anyway, in the interests of full disclosure, I'll sketch my path out a bit:
Graduated with a BS in Biotech. from Worcester Poly. Tech. w/ a 3.43. I worked for a Biotech Co. doing cancer research and human genome project stuff. After 6+ years of that, I decided to go to law school. I took the LSAT and scored a 165. Of the schools that accepted me, I picked Washington & Lee School of Law. It is ranked 18th. I did well my first year and got a job at an IP firm in Cali. I did get an offer. However, I did not like patent law at all and decided that I'd rather just drop the science bit (except for the way of thinking which has been the biggest reason for my success). I made law review and was an editor my third year, however my Note did not get published. I summered at 2 large DC firms b/w my 2nd and 3rd years and I recieved offers from both. I spent the last year clerking for a Federal Court of Appeals Judge. Now I am working for a big firm in DC.
Anyway, my path is not the only one for a lawyer. There are lots of law firms and lots of things for lawyers to do. My old CEO told me that one of the best ways to get into business was to work on the legal side of a business and sneak into the business side. He said lawyers can do things that MBA's can't do.
Also, public interest work is available although the salaries are a bit low. Government service is very attractive and you don't have to have a special background to get there. Salaries a good, benefits are great and the hours are really good. After I pay off some of my loans, I might go into government service.
There are a lot of jobs to go around.
Anyway, there are 2 or 3 people from my class who do not have jobs. That's all. Most of them are legal jobs, some are business. I think the median salary is $70ish and the mean is somewhat lower. I think it is probably more important to go to the highest ranked school that you can than to graduate at the top. Obviously, if you can do both you'll be able to pick your own path.
So, put my experience and Escher's experience together and you should have a realistic picture of how law school can go.
Thoth
PS: Good luck in that last year Escher. Do you have any prospects lined up for after graduation?
So what specific kind of work do you do, then? (when you're not busy kicking puppies and buggering small children with all of your lawyer friends, that is )
.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I am trying to break into appellate litigation, but general lit/white collar criminal defense and some regulatory stuff seems to be my current lot.
The only decent people I know who are lawyers are doing something else with their lives, by choice. All the practicing attorneys I know are scumbags. Personally compromised, as we say in the trade. Even the "nice" ones with little kids and family practices are sleazy as hell, taking advantage when they can on a regular basis.
So, if you go to law school, go to the best. If you want to sell your soul, make sure you get top dollar.
I see some hard words in this thread. Being lawyers doesn't mean automatically to sell you soul. Some lawyers have done, this, like some doctors, some politicians, some judge, some (fill the blank)
Perhaps in US there is too much space for lawyers : but who to blame, the lawyers (if they are here, it's because there is a need for them), the justice, people who are too greedy.
In France , people tend to sue more and more in order to win money. personnaly i have been sued two times : i don't hate lawyers for that, i tried to see the whole thing with a higher vue, and not a simple hate reaction who leads to nowhere except anger. I'll add that i know now the first lawyer that have sued me and win, and i appreciate him as a people. I will not comment here these story especially with UBB out, and my name publically present.
If people want to make a discussion about justice and lawyers , Fireside Chat will be a nice place and perhaps i will have a few things to say, but this thread was about law school, and it will be fine if it will not transform in a flamewar.
<strong>PS: Good luck in that last year Escher. Do you have any prospects lined up for after graduation?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thanks, Thoth, I will need all the luck I can get. No prospects lined up yet, but at least I'm going through on-campus interviewing. My fear is that my relatively low GPA will deter most firms and organizations from even considering me. My hope is that with intensive networking and legwork on my part, I will be able to find a smaller firm that can get over my grades to take advantage of my extensive experience and knowledge in securities law. I'm optimistic by nature and haven't given up hope yet. But if you have any thoughts or leads to offer, please share.
[quote]Originally posted by Thoth2:
<strong>I am trying to break into appellate litigation, but general lit/white collar criminal defense and some regulatory stuff seems to be my current lot.</strong><hr></blockquote>
So you're a litigator? I was going to argue that the public's image of the greedy lawyer is mostly based on plaintiff's attorneys who work on a contingent basis. People usually forget about the often-ignored transactional lawyers that make the (business) world go round. Modern trade and commerce would not be possible without transactional legal attorneys. Without good securities lawyers to write good disclosure documents, the public would have been mislead even more during the stockmarket bubble. The list of good things lawyers can do goes on and on.
Powerdoc: You provide great insight from the perspective of a doctor who has been the target of lawsuits. Having grown up in Switzerland (I'm a dual French and Swiss citizen) I appreciated the historically tight limits on product and other litigation in European legal systems. When I decided to move to the States for college, one of my major fears was that I would be sued for sexual harassment or some other silly thing, even though I am the most innocent person on earth and wouldn't harm a fly, much less a puppy.
As you point out, the legal profession is not any more corrupt than any other profession. In my oinion, the problem is that the public's perception of lawyers is based exclusively on the excess of frivolous or near-frivolous lawsuits in the US (and the lawyers associated with them).
I won't see the inside of a courtroom for years, but technically, part of my 'practice' is litigation. Appellate litigation is very different from what most people think of as "litigation" b/c it involves abstract legal concepts rather than the factual basis of a lawsuit. It is very academic and the lawyers who practice it are very collegial rather than sleazy, although there are some bad ones too.
As for leads, let me know where you wish to practice and I might be able to help.
One thing that I can suggest without reservation, is to look for a clerkship. Try senior status district court (fed) judges or state court of appeals/S.Ct. Don't worry too much about your grades/lawschool rank. They matter much less for state judges and senior judges b/c they pick later than the Fed. Ct. of Appeals and active judges. You get incredible experience in law and legal process, a decent salary, good benefits, challenging work, good hours and it will equalize any discrepancies you may have on your transcript. Seriously, I know a couple of people who went to bottom tier law schools and didn't do well, but lucked into a clerkship and are going to big name firms afterwards. It might require sending out 100 or so resumes, but it will be worth it.
I find this all very interesting. My name, of course, is Shawn Patrick Joyce, and I too am seriously considering law school. Some of my background:
1) Graduated in top 5% of my high school class.
2) Scored 680 out of 800 on the SAT-Verbal section (38 right, 2 wrong, 0 skipped in reading comprehension; 18 right, 0 wrong, 1 skipped in sentence completion; and I didn't do well in analogies for that test though my best score is 16 right, 2 wrong, 1 skipped.) It's safe to say that my verbal skills are fairly proficient.
3) Earned highest GPA in Language Arts and History throughout high school.
I am attending King's College in northeastern Pennsylvania and will major in English and participate in the Honors Program. It is a highly-rated Regional Liberal Arts school, but certainly not a top tier national school.
Comments
I Began University doing a double Degree of Info Systems and Law. Initally I thought I would dislike law, but decided I would give it a go and if I was not going well with it could drop out after the first year. Well I tell you, after one semester I am sitting on High grades in the subject and have dropped information systems. I am now oficially doing a Bachelor of Commerce combined with a Bachelor of Law...
I think the study of law is something a person will either like or truely dislike.
When making a decision about law school it is important to think of all the aspects involved with going to uni.
-In law you need alot of time to get all your work done
-you cannot afford to leave things to the last minute, nor can you not study till the day before an exam.
-COST! Books and 4/5 years cost alot (In australia we have 3 levels of charges for subjects studied at uni and LAW falls into band 1, and the only other subject to do so is medicne.
I have not covered everything, but I hope this helps you....
I am only a first year student so no doubt others will be able to further inform you.
My best friend acquired a new boyfriend shortly after we graduated from high school. The boy was several years older, a senior at Yale in fact. He was intent on becoming a lawyer. He graduated second in his class and in the fall started at Harvard Law. Towards the end of his first year he had a "revelation" and decided there was no truth in the law or anything but science and dropped out of Harvard. He also convinced my friend, who had been studying philosophy, political science, and economics and Boston University. For a year he studied physics in his parents' basement and then moved in with my friend. He stays in their apartment in Boston all day, studying physics while she goes to classes at BU. In the fall he hopes to take classes towards a bachelors in physics at a small, low-end, state school.
I would've actually given thought to becoming a lawyer had I possessed the funds to get a degree from a decent law school (and had there not be ga-gillions of lawyers out there already without jobs)....
<strong>-COST!</strong><hr></blockquote>
This would most likely be the deal breaker for me, if anything.
[quote]Originally posted by Ari:
<strong>Towards the end of his first year he had a "revelation" and decided there was no truth in the law or anything but science and dropped out of Harvard.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's understandable. I had a similar experience when I abandoned CS and started studying mathematics several years ago. I imagined myself to be learning the "language of the universe." Now that I'm a jaded, cynical old codger, I still believe that mathematics is the language of the universe but I wonder if the universe is really worth listening to.
[quote]Originally posted by BuonRotto:
<strong>Yeah, that's what we need -- more lawyers!
Yes, but I'd be a really nice one.
[quote]Originally posted by Moogs:
<strong>I would've actually given thought to becoming a lawyer had I possessed the funds to get a degree from a decent law school (and had there not be ga-gillions of lawyers out there already without jobs)....</strong><hr></blockquote>
Are there? I haven't really done much research yet, but I noticed UT Law School (where I'd probably go) was boasting a 98% employment rate for their grads. At any rate, I can't imagine how it could be any worse than the fetid cesspool of unemployment that is the IT industry, where I'm presently benumbed (and I'm sick to bloody death of it.)
<strong>Lawywers are evil and most are assholes on top of that.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I guss that means I'm an asshole. Oh, evil too.
Of course, all phd's are trolls... <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
Anyway, on topic:
I graduated from law school a bit over a year ago, leaving the life sciences and it was the best thing I've done (professionally). The way I think of it is like this: Law school teaches you the Rules. Its almost like an Uber-government class. There is no more truth in Law than there is in any other human created institution, but if you go into it with your eyes open and are there to learn the process, you'll fare better than the idealogues who think law contains some platonic ideal buried under the professors' bullying. I went to law school because I thought I could have a more direct and positive impact on individuals helping people with their legal problems rather than being ensconced in a lab all day long. So far, I have been proven correct. Just a personal choice, not a value judgment.
As for cost, that's something you'll have to answer for yourself. I made 39k as a biologist, I took on about $60k in debt to become a lawyer, and my salary is $135k before bonus this year. The numbers worked out for me. Also, there aren't too many lawyers, just too many bad ones.
Good luck on the LSAT!
Thoth
BTW I help treat cancer for a living and get paid a lot less than you. So you get paid a lot to ruins peoples' lives and I get paid less to save them.
Lawyers are greedy and immoral. There's no worse profession.
Lawywers are evil and most are assholes on top of that.<hr></blockquote>
Proof that not all PhD's are as wise as people think....
Josef:
I was mostly referring to the days when I was in college - there were unemployed lawyers all over the place. I can't imagine today's market is much better. You need to understand also that a 98% placement rate does not mean those people were all placed into law jobs. It's a good bet at least half of them are working in a business capacity somewhere and not a legal one. Most of the lawyers I know got business jobs right out of law school - and they all went to very good schools like Georgetown or Michigan.
You have to be the absolute best in your class or have very good connections to get any kind of high profile law job right out of school. Those Rainmaker stories are good for Hollywood but the fact is it rarely happens that way.
[ 08-12-2002: Message edited by: BrDoc ]</p>
Lawyers are literally ruining the country and they refuse to admit that they are out of control. They ruin peoples lives and don't care. As far as I know there's not a single group of lawyers willing to speak out about it. So **** them. They are evil and immoral.
So what specific kind of work do you do, then? (when you're not busy kicking puppies and buggering small children with all of your lawyer friends, that is
[quote]Originally posted by Moogs:
<strong>You need to understand also that a 98% placement rate does not mean those people were all placed into law jobs. It's a good bet at least half of them are working in a business capacity somewhere and not a legal one.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sure.
[quote]Originally posted by Moogs:
<strong>You have to be the absolute best in your class or have very good connections to get any kind of high profile law job right out of school. Those Rainmaker stories are good for Hollywood but the fact is it rarely happens that way.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's ok. I'm not looking for stardom, just a steady career with a nice salary.
<strong>I graduated from law school a bit over a year ago, leaving the life sciences and it was the best thing I've done (professionally).
* * *
As for cost, that's something you'll have to answer for yourself. I made 39k as a biologist, I took on about $60k in debt to become a lawyer, and my salary is $135k before bonus this year.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thoth2: You are obviously a model for what law school can be at the high end of the academic and professional performance spectrum. But from the little information you've disclosed, I would guess that you accomplished most of the following: did well undergrad, did well on the LSAT, got into a top-20 school, did very well your first year, got on law review, leveraged your science background and good GPA to land a summer associate job at a big IP firm, didn't disappoint as a summer associate, got an offer, accepted it, and are now making a killing and buying new cars for yourself and your wife.
I admire people who work that hard and consequently accomplish what you have accomplished. Personally, I didn't get quite that far. I was lucky enough to get into a top liberal arts college directly from public high school in Switzerland eight years ago. After that, everything went downhill. My undergraduate GPA was not up to snuff, I didn't do as well as I had hoped on the LSAT, I ended up going to a second-tier law school (where I have one year left) that dropped to the third tier this year, am in the bottom half of my law school class and didn't make law review. At this point, I have great work experience, significantly less money in the bank, and little chance of making anywhere close to six digits when I graduate next year. I don't regret going to law school in any way. But I do wish I could rewind my life eight years and do it over with significantly better numerical results.
So Josef, think about law school carefully. Law school is a fantastic education that will help you (to help others), regardless of whether you end up practicing law or not. But if you do go to law school, make sure you get into a top tier school, go there even if you have to incur debt, and above all, kill yourself to be near the top of your class and get on law review! If you do that, you'll be golden. Good luck!
Escher
<strong>
Thoth2: You are obviously a model for what law school can be at the high end of the academic and professional performance spectrum. But from the little information you've disclosed, I would guess that you accomplished most of the following: did well undergrad, did well on the LSAT, got into a top-20 school, did very well your first year, got on law review, leveraged your science background and good GPA to land a summer associate job at a big IP firm, didn't disappoint as a summer associate, got an offer, accepted it, and are now making a killing ....
-snip-
So Josef, think about law school carefully.
Escher</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hmmm. Escher pretty much pegged my past. Its a bit scary actually. Anyway, in the interests of full disclosure, I'll sketch my path out a bit:
Graduated with a BS in Biotech. from Worcester Poly. Tech. w/ a 3.43. I worked for a Biotech Co. doing cancer research and human genome project stuff. After 6+ years of that, I decided to go to law school. I took the LSAT and scored a 165. Of the schools that accepted me, I picked Washington & Lee School of Law. It is ranked 18th. I did well my first year and got a job at an IP firm in Cali. I did get an offer. However, I did not like patent law at all and decided that I'd rather just drop the science bit (except for the way of thinking which has been the biggest reason for my success). I made law review and was an editor my third year, however my Note did not get published. I summered at 2 large DC firms b/w my 2nd and 3rd years and I recieved offers from both. I spent the last year clerking for a Federal Court of Appeals Judge. Now I am working for a big firm in DC.
Anyway, my path is not the only one for a lawyer. There are lots of law firms and lots of things for lawyers to do. My old CEO told me that one of the best ways to get into business was to work on the legal side of a business and sneak into the business side. He said lawyers can do things that MBA's can't do.
Also, public interest work is available although the salaries are a bit low. Government service is very attractive and you don't have to have a special background to get there. Salaries a good, benefits are great and the hours are really good. After I pay off some of my loans, I might go into government service.
There are a lot of jobs to go around.
Anyway, there are 2 or 3 people from my class who do not have jobs. That's all. Most of them are legal jobs, some are business. I think the median salary is $70ish and the mean is somewhat lower. I think it is probably more important to go to the highest ranked school that you can than to graduate at the top. Obviously, if you can do both you'll be able to pick your own path.
So, put my experience and Escher's experience together and you should have a realistic picture of how law school can go.
Thoth
PS: Good luck in that last year Escher. Do you have any prospects lined up for after graduation?
<strong>Thoth2:
So what specific kind of work do you do, then? (when you're not busy kicking puppies and buggering small children with all of your lawyer friends, that is
.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I am trying to break into appellate litigation, but general lit/white collar criminal defense and some regulatory stuff seems to be my current lot.
I don't kick puppies. I eat them.
Thoth
The only decent people I know who are lawyers are doing something else with their lives, by choice. All the practicing attorneys I know are scumbags. Personally compromised, as we say in the trade. Even the "nice" ones with little kids and family practices are sleazy as hell, taking advantage when they can on a regular basis.
So, if you go to law school, go to the best. If you want to sell your soul, make sure you get top dollar.
Perhaps in US there is too much space for lawyers : but who to blame, the lawyers (if they are here, it's because there is a need for them), the justice, people who are too greedy.
In France , people tend to sue more and more in order to win money. personnaly i have been sued two times : i don't hate lawyers for that, i tried to see the whole thing with a higher vue, and not a simple hate reaction who leads to nowhere except anger. I'll add that i know now the first lawyer that have sued me and win, and i appreciate him as a people. I will not comment here these story especially with UBB out, and my name publically present.
If people want to make a discussion about justice and lawyers , Fireside Chat will be a nice place and perhaps i will have a few things to say, but this thread was about law school, and it will be fine if it will not transform in a flamewar.
Thanks in advance.
Powerdoc, the unregistred moderator.
<strong>PS: Good luck in that last year Escher. Do you have any prospects lined up for after graduation?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thanks, Thoth, I will need all the luck I can get. No prospects lined up yet, but at least I'm going through on-campus interviewing. My fear is that my relatively low GPA will deter most firms and organizations from even considering me. My hope is that with intensive networking and legwork on my part, I will be able to find a smaller firm that can get over my grades to take advantage of my extensive experience and knowledge in securities law. I'm optimistic by nature and haven't given up hope yet.
[quote]Originally posted by Thoth2:
<strong>I am trying to break into appellate litigation, but general lit/white collar criminal defense and some regulatory stuff seems to be my current lot.</strong><hr></blockquote>
So you're a litigator? I was going to argue that the public's image of the greedy lawyer is mostly based on plaintiff's attorneys who work on a contingent basis. People usually forget about the often-ignored transactional lawyers that make the (business) world go round. Modern trade and commerce would not be possible without transactional legal attorneys. Without good securities lawyers to write good disclosure documents, the public would have been mislead even more during the stockmarket bubble. The list of good things lawyers can do goes on and on.
Powerdoc: You provide great insight from the perspective of a doctor who has been the target of lawsuits. Having grown up in Switzerland (I'm a dual French and Swiss citizen) I appreciated the historically tight limits on product and other litigation in European legal systems. When I decided to move to the States for college, one of my major fears was that I would be sued for sexual harassment or some other silly thing, even though I am the most innocent person on earth and wouldn't harm a fly, much less a puppy.
As you point out, the legal profession is not any more corrupt than any other profession. In my oinion, the problem is that the public's perception of lawyers is based exclusively on the excess of frivolous or near-frivolous lawsuits in the US (and the lawyers associated with them).
Escher
<strong>
So you're a litigator?
Escher</strong><hr></blockquote>
I won't see the inside of a courtroom for years, but technically, part of my 'practice' is litigation. Appellate litigation is very different from what most people think of as "litigation" b/c it involves abstract legal concepts rather than the factual basis of a lawsuit. It is very academic and the lawyers who practice it are very collegial rather than sleazy, although there are some bad ones too.
As for leads, let me know where you wish to practice and I might be able to help.
One thing that I can suggest without reservation, is to look for a clerkship. Try senior status district court (fed) judges or state court of appeals/S.Ct. Don't worry too much about your grades/lawschool rank. They matter much less for state judges and senior judges b/c they pick later than the Fed. Ct. of Appeals and active judges. You get incredible experience in law and legal process, a decent salary, good benefits, challenging work, good hours and it will equalize any discrepancies you may have on your transcript. Seriously, I know a couple of people who went to bottom tier law schools and didn't do well, but lucked into a clerkship and are going to big name firms afterwards. It might require sending out 100 or so resumes, but it will be worth it.
Also, I'm sure the SEC is looking for attorneys.
Thoth
1) Graduated in top 5% of my high school class.
2) Scored 680 out of 800 on the SAT-Verbal section (38 right, 2 wrong, 0 skipped in reading comprehension; 18 right, 0 wrong, 1 skipped in sentence completion; and I didn't do well in analogies for that test though my best score is 16 right, 2 wrong, 1 skipped.) It's safe to say that my verbal skills are fairly proficient.
3) Earned highest GPA in Language Arts and History throughout high school.
I am attending King's College in northeastern Pennsylvania and will major in English and participate in the Honors Program. It is a highly-rated Regional Liberal Arts school, but certainly not a top tier national school.
Simply, how do I compare?