Also, FWIW, it will be a nuisance for some people if Apple stops selling (most) software in their stores, but a show-stopper for many people if (no, when) they stop including optical drives on mainstream machines.
People like to shop in-person, it's just reality. Many people (granted, not everyone) like to hold something in their hands as they buy it. And there are other independent retail stores beyond the corporate stores, so even if Apple decides to severely cut back in-store software purchases, there are other options. But removing optical drives kills that option as well!
Some of you might think that 20-something consumers rule the roost, but the bulk of money spent in this country, even on tech, is spent by people who are older and with habits and personalities that aren't going to change just because someone tells them they should.
All? How are they going to sell and install Mac OS X software? Hopefully they can figure out how to make 8GB USB flash drives for Mac OS X Lion cheap enough, but that is still a partition.
The latest MacBook Airs ship with the System Restore "disc" on a flash memory module.
Just wondering how long it will take to donwload Lion for example. It takes an hour or so to get the iOS updates. I see this as a huge issue for people. With slower connections one could be tied up for hours downloading major software and then have it time out etc.
Though major software options like Microsoft Office are not yet available for download, Apple has made much of its most popular software, including the iWork and iLife suites, available for purchase.
Well, Office and Adobe ARE available for download, just not from the Mac App Store.
You can download them from the Adobe and Microsoft sites.
Several people have pointed out that it's something that customers would want to get in their store (Office), but I think you're looking at it wrong when you talk about how popular it is. As the main article tells us, even if it was at the top of the list, the total amount of sales is minimal in dollars and cents. The only reason to keep it is for the customer assurance, not the money or the sales.
That being said, I know Microsoft has talked (and talked and talked) about delivering their software online for many years and I remember reading articles from five years ago that talked about it being just around the corner. Now that Apple has beaten them to it (again!), I would expect that even if they aren't in the Mac app store, they will find some way to offer it online.
So perhaps Apple would hand out the link to people, perhaps they would let people download it right in the store, maybe they would set it up for them, but I don't see it as a really big hurdle and I don't see them removing all the software boxes for their own products, yet leaving MS Office on the shelf all by itself.
At my workplace, we buy a blanket licence for the whole place and people individually download it to their computers from a central server. We haven't used disks for a long long time. I think there must be some way to accommodate the Office users even if it's just selling them a coupon with a keycode and a URL to download on it.
Microsoft offers its own software via download or CD through its own online store.
And if you are buying for the corporate world the Volume licensing and MSDN subscription plans offer exactly what you are describing and have done for years.
They also have programs such as the Home Use Program which offers employees the same software available at their work for next to nothing, e.g. MS Office for AUD$15.
I have owned Apples since the Apple II back in 1980. I live in the mountains of Colorado and only have dial up at 32Kps for internet access. My only source for Apple software upgrades is via DVD. The day Apple stops producing DVDs as a way to purchase software for the Mac is the day I quit Apple and go Windows.
I have owned Apples since the Apple II back in 1980. I live in the mountains of Colorado and only have dial up at 32Kps for internet access. My only source for Apple software upgrades is via DVD. The day Apple stops producing DVDs as a way to purchase software for the Mac is the day I quit Apple and go Windows.
I hear your passion...but I'd prefer using an old Apple rather than a new Windows pox, err I mean, "box."
All? How are they going to sell and install Mac OS X software? Hopefully they can figure out how to make 8GB USB flash drives for Mac OS X Lion cheap enough, but that is still a partition.
There is another option that would eliminate physical media for rich OS updates altogether, but that?s probably still too involved and complex for Apple to pursue at this time.
To be clear, MS Office and Adobe products are available for DL, just not through the Mac App Store. If Apple isn?t make much money on those suites as it is it might behoove them to eliminate them altogether. How many are buying these apps at Apple Stores and apple.com anyway?
Yeah I downloaded MS Office 11 (only cos I got it for £9 on employee purchase!) Some of the combo updates are close to 1GB nowadays so downloading the new OS X probably wouldn't be vastly different. But it sucks having to repeat the process for all the Macs in the house.
When's Apple coming out with the seamless home server product - we've all got two or three Macs at home nowadays and need to keep all of them in check.
Quote:
Originally Posted by macdaddykane
Not at all concerned about reducing packing material manufacturing, burning up trees and oil to make wasteful paper and plastics. Industry evolves and workers need to as well.
+1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logisticaldron
Why would you want to keep something so large, so slow, so limited and so unused in 2011 compared to the internet and other forms of data transfers? If people need an optical drive on a notebook they can buy one that has it like people did in the past when technology made the inevitable change over or use an external one for the few times they need it, but why should everyone else suffer for it? Somehere has posted an x-ray pic of a MacBook Pro with the optical drive taking up 25% of the entire internal space. That?s a lot!
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbonner
What happens to folks still with Tiger or Leopard, is there app store in those releases now?
You download software, just not from the Mac App Store.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hal 9000
Great idea but how with the App Store distribute OSX Lion? The only way that comes to mind is a physical DVD.
As others have said OS X is on a USB stick for MBA use. Personally I've been expecting this since pre-Leopard given that Apple owns the world supply of flash memory anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hal 9000
Just hope your reasoning doesn´t help cable companies to charge for bandwith, specially with OS distributions.
With our other usage, Netflix, iPlayer etc, OS updates will be only a small percentage but I hope Apple can optimize this as the networks are overloaded as it is.
Sure. e.g., I recently purchased the boxed sw pkg DiskWarrior at the Apple Store in Cincinnati.
The system on the disk won't even start my Dec 2009 iMac 27" i7 because it is not up to date. This kind of service is unacceptable for a boxed sw vendor (especially the hw vendor) to foist upon its customers.
It's not very convenient, but much easier than swapping drives between enclosures. Still, not something I'd want to use very often, more for when you're in a pinch.
But this Voyager dock looks pretty neat. Here are some thoughts, in case others care:
1) It's SATA only, so won't work with ATA/IDE drives. I was suspicious of this because I have stacks of older ATA drives around, and while the connectors are all the same, their positions are slightly different, depending on manufacturer.
2) The drive you listed above looks like a really great price, in fact it seems out of line with the rest of what I saw for 2g drives (and the reviews were pretty bad, lots of DOA/early failures). This is only based on a short bit of research, but I think I'd opt for a better quality drive, which pushes the price up.
3) disc rot vs. hard disk failure. This is a good point, maybe someone else wants to research into it more. In any case, I save each set of data to 2 DVDs of different brands to reduce risk of one brand or batch being crappy. But the main point here is that if a disc rots you lose one chunk of data, if a drive fails, you potentially lose many many times that amount of data. Or you pay a $1500+ fee to recover what is recoverable. That's scary to me.
4) Cost. Let's say for ballpark $100 for 2g bare drive (I'm actually seeing most drives higher than that, but haven't looked deeply at reliability, etc). I can get a spindle of 100 DVD-Rs for about $20 (less for cheap no-name, a bit more for name-brand). That's like $4/gig compared with $50/gig using hard drives. So yeah, your math was off by a factor of 10, but that's okay. :-)
5) Redundancy. Double all the costs for redundancy. As mentioned, I make 2 copies (occasionally 3 for some data) on different brand media, one copy for off-site.
6) Convenience. One might think the drives are more convenient, but we already have much of this data on a couple large external drives for ready-access (although they're close to full now!), but this is all about archival. Storing stuff that we want to be sure it's around for decades to come, even if the house or office burns down.
All this said, it was a good exercise in checking out what looks like a pretty neat product, and I thank you for pointing it out. Even if it's not something we choose to use for this particular application, I'm happy to know about it.
Anyone else have thoughts on large-ish scale backup if and when optical drives start disappearing?
That was a quickie list I threw together, that drive was the first one that came up on Newegg. I personally prefer to buy boxed(retail packaging) drives over a bare oem. Now if you are patient you can find 1tb-1.5tb boxed drives on sale that the price per gigabyte is close to the one I listed. For back up drives I have no problem using green drives (slower rotation and performance) as they are cheaper and use less power.
To my way of thinking if you have more then one or two drives then the price of the hot swap enclosure becomes moot, but maybe thats just me.
100 disks for $20. So that works out to be 100x4.3Gb=430Gb $20/430Gb=.0465 per Gb.
Using a better rated drive on new egg (4 out 5 eggs) it's a 2 Tb Western Digital green for $99.
That is $99/2000Gb=$.0495
So the cost per gigabyte is very similar even though buying two drives (one for back up and one for off site storage) does make you spend more up front.
Lets add the one time cost of an Newertech usb hard drive dock of 34.99.
$34.99+$99=$133.99/2000Gb=.066996 Gb.
That is pretty close to the price you pay for the disks, and drives are only getting cheaper. I have no problem if you prefer dvd's. I just find using hard drives so much easier and convenient with virtually no cost penalty.
Also, I am pretty sure I saw somewhere an older style dock that works with ide drives. Perhaps dig around on Newegg.
Anyone else have thoughts on large-ish scale backup if and when optical drives start disappearing?
For on-site backup, a RAID array or something more flexible like a Drobo is the way to go. For off-site storage, you could use a HD dock with drives you rotate for redundancy, but that's a huge hassle. I know you poo-pooed this earlier, but online backup like Carbonite or Mozy.
All? How are they going to sell and install Mac OS X software? Hopefully they can figure out how to make 8GB USB flash drives for Mac OS X Lion cheap enough, but that is still a partition.
There is another option that would eliminate physical media for rich OS updates altogether, but that?s probably still too involved and complex for Apple to pursue at this time.
To be clear, MS Office and Adobe products are available for DL, just not through the Mac App Store. If Apple isn?t make much money on those suites as it is it might behoove them to eliminate them altogether. How many are buying these apps at Apple Stores and apple.com anyway?
Snow Leopard came on a USB flash drive with my Macbook air
They already are. My new MBA came with OSX on a USB stick.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac.World
MacBook Air's already come with a thumb drive for re-installing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vandil
The latest MacBook Airs ship with the System Restore "disc" on a flash memory module.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atanner
Snow Leopard came on a USB flash drive with my Macbook air
I guess my post was a bit confusing. I thought my comment about ?cheap enough? and mentioning the 8GB NAND used in the MBAs was self evident.
Regarding ?cheap enough?, consider the differences you guys are stating as one and the same. Including a physical restore disc in a Mac that starts at $999 and sells a million or so per quarter is vastly different than creating several times as many of this USB flash drives that are sold for much less money. Apple includes iLife with the cost of a Mac but any of the software updates they charge for it, so it?s not likely Apple will sell an 8GB USB flash drive with Mac OS X Lion for $29. That?s the difference.
I think it?s likely they?ll offer USB Flash drive for Lion (they have to for the MBAs that ship with Snow Leopard), but also have the standard DVD installer for the majority of Mac users who still have DVD drives. You?ll be able to pay the premium for the faster, smaller, and ?cooler? option, but it?ll likely cost more. By Mac OS X 10.8 it will all be on USB.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtotes
Yeah I downloaded MS Office 11 (only cos I got it for £9 on employee purchase!) Some of the combo updates are close to 1GB nowadays so downloading the new OS X probably wouldn't be vastly different. But it sucks having to repeat the process for all the Macs in the house.
One of the more obvious issues with doing a download-only OS update that rewrites all the system files are the checks and balances to prevent something from going wrong, and the ability for a backup plan if something does go wrong. They?d need to check the entire file after it?s downloaded. Not an issue. They?d have to allow the installer app to first setup a partition for the system files to reside with a dynamic partition resizing. This can often be done very easily, if you?re not using too much of your drive and the system can?t resize to make that partition. They can also have it say you need a different drive, allow you to copy it to an external harddrive, USB flash drive, SD card, etc. That partition needs to have it?s own checks that it will be a solid boot partition and have all the apps one might need to fix any issues.
Like I said, all possible, but not as likely as Apple having customers pay $5-8 more for a USB flash drive for the updater.
Quote:
When's Apple coming out with the seamless home server product - we've all got two or three Macs at home nowadays and need to keep all of them in check.
That would be sweet. Time Capsule just doesn?t cut it for an interconnected home. iOS-based and multiple hot-swapple drives.
I have owned Apples since the Apple II back in 1980. I live in the mountains of Colorado and only have dial up at 32Kps for internet access. My only source for Apple software upgrades is via DVD. The day Apple stops producing DVDs as a way to purchase software for the Mac is the day I quit Apple and go Windows.
Well, I regret to say it, but I think eventually boxing will be scarce even in windows, it is the trend
Comments
People like to shop in-person, it's just reality. Many people (granted, not everyone) like to hold something in their hands as they buy it. And there are other independent retail stores beyond the corporate stores, so even if Apple decides to severely cut back in-store software purchases, there are other options. But removing optical drives kills that option as well!
Some of you might think that 20-something consumers rule the roost, but the bulk of money spent in this country, even on tech, is spent by people who are older and with habits and personalities that aren't going to change just because someone tells them they should.
All? How are they going to sell and install Mac OS X software? Hopefully they can figure out how to make 8GB USB flash drives for Mac OS X Lion cheap enough, but that is still a partition.
The latest MacBook Airs ship with the System Restore "disc" on a flash memory module.
Though major software options like Microsoft Office are not yet available for download, Apple has made much of its most popular software, including the iWork and iLife suites, available for purchase.
Well, Office and Adobe ARE available for download, just not from the Mac App Store.
You can download them from the Adobe and Microsoft sites.
Several people have pointed out that it's something that customers would want to get in their store (Office), but I think you're looking at it wrong when you talk about how popular it is. As the main article tells us, even if it was at the top of the list, the total amount of sales is minimal in dollars and cents. The only reason to keep it is for the customer assurance, not the money or the sales.
That being said, I know Microsoft has talked (and talked and talked) about delivering their software online for many years and I remember reading articles from five years ago that talked about it being just around the corner. Now that Apple has beaten them to it (again!), I would expect that even if they aren't in the Mac app store, they will find some way to offer it online.
So perhaps Apple would hand out the link to people, perhaps they would let people download it right in the store, maybe they would set it up for them, but I don't see it as a really big hurdle and I don't see them removing all the software boxes for their own products, yet leaving MS Office on the shelf all by itself.
At my workplace, we buy a blanket licence for the whole place and people individually download it to their computers from a central server. We haven't used disks for a long long time. I think there must be some way to accommodate the Office users even if it's just selling them a coupon with a keycode and a URL to download on it.
Microsoft offers its own software via download or CD through its own online store.
And if you are buying for the corporate world the Volume licensing and MSDN subscription plans offer exactly what you are describing and have done for years.
They also have programs such as the Home Use Program which offers employees the same software available at their work for next to nothing, e.g. MS Office for AUD$15.
I have owned Apples since the Apple II back in 1980. I live in the mountains of Colorado and only have dial up at 32Kps for internet access. My only source for Apple software upgrades is via DVD. The day Apple stops producing DVDs as a way to purchase software for the Mac is the day I quit Apple and go Windows.
I hear your passion...but I'd prefer using an old Apple rather than a new Windows pox, err I mean, "box."
Great idea but how with the App Store distribute OSX Lion? The only way that comes to mind is a physical DVD.
Maybe SD cards? Apple already has the slots/readers on 7 of 11 Mac models right now.
All? How are they going to sell and install Mac OS X software? Hopefully they can figure out how to make 8GB USB flash drives for Mac OS X Lion cheap enough, but that is still a partition.
There is another option that would eliminate physical media for rich OS updates altogether, but that?s probably still too involved and complex for Apple to pursue at this time.
To be clear, MS Office and Adobe products are available for DL, just not through the Mac App Store. If Apple isn?t make much money on those suites as it is it might behoove them to eliminate them altogether. How many are buying these apps at Apple Stores and apple.com anyway?
Yeah I downloaded MS Office 11 (only cos I got it for £9 on employee purchase!) Some of the combo updates are close to 1GB nowadays so downloading the new OS X probably wouldn't be vastly different. But it sucks having to repeat the process for all the Macs in the house.
When's Apple coming out with the seamless home server product - we've all got two or three Macs at home nowadays and need to keep all of them in check.
Not at all concerned about reducing packing material manufacturing, burning up trees and oil to make wasteful paper and plastics. Industry evolves and workers need to as well.
+1
Why would you want to keep something so large, so slow, so limited and so unused in 2011 compared to the internet and other forms of data transfers? If people need an optical drive on a notebook they can buy one that has it like people did in the past when technology made the inevitable change over or use an external one for the few times they need it, but why should everyone else suffer for it? Somehere has posted an x-ray pic of a MacBook Pro with the optical drive taking up 25% of the entire internal space. That?s a lot!
What happens to folks still with Tiger or Leopard, is there app store in those releases now?
You download software, just not from the Mac App Store.
Great idea but how with the App Store distribute OSX Lion? The only way that comes to mind is a physical DVD.
As others have said OS X is on a USB stick for MBA use. Personally I've been expecting this since pre-Leopard given that Apple owns the world supply of flash memory anyway.
Just hope your reasoning doesn´t help cable companies to charge for bandwith, specially with OS distributions.
With our other usage, Netflix, iPlayer etc, OS updates will be only a small percentage but I hope Apple can optimize this as the networks are overloaded as it is.
Good. Many of their boxes are out of date anyway
Care to elaborate?
...i live in bosnia and herzegovina...
Welcome to the lively Apple Insider comments forum! Here's hoping that digital distribution comes to your area soon.
Care to elaborate?
Sure. e.g., I recently purchased the boxed sw pkg DiskWarrior at the Apple Store in Cincinnati.
The system on the disk won't even start my Dec 2009 iMac 27" i7 because it is not up to date. This kind of service is unacceptable for a boxed sw vendor (especially the hw vendor) to foist upon its customers.
Well you just sent me off on a 1/2 hour research adventure!
I currently own a USB-to-ATA cable-adapter vaguely similar to this: http://newertech.com/products/usb3_u...ldriveadap.php
It's not very convenient, but much easier than swapping drives between enclosures. Still, not something I'd want to use very often, more for when you're in a pinch.
But this Voyager dock looks pretty neat. Here are some thoughts, in case others care:
1) It's SATA only, so won't work with ATA/IDE drives. I was suspicious of this because I have stacks of older ATA drives around, and while the connectors are all the same, their positions are slightly different, depending on manufacturer.
2) The drive you listed above looks like a really great price, in fact it seems out of line with the rest of what I saw for 2g drives (and the reviews were pretty bad, lots of DOA/early failures). This is only based on a short bit of research, but I think I'd opt for a better quality drive, which pushes the price up.
3) disc rot vs. hard disk failure. This is a good point, maybe someone else wants to research into it more. In any case, I save each set of data to 2 DVDs of different brands to reduce risk of one brand or batch being crappy. But the main point here is that if a disc rots you lose one chunk of data, if a drive fails, you potentially lose many many times that amount of data. Or you pay a $1500+ fee to recover what is recoverable. That's scary to me.
4) Cost. Let's say for ballpark $100 for 2g bare drive (I'm actually seeing most drives higher than that, but haven't looked deeply at reliability, etc). I can get a spindle of 100 DVD-Rs for about $20 (less for cheap no-name, a bit more for name-brand). That's like $4/gig compared with $50/gig using hard drives. So yeah, your math was off by a factor of 10, but that's okay. :-)
5) Redundancy. Double all the costs for redundancy. As mentioned, I make 2 copies (occasionally 3 for some data) on different brand media, one copy for off-site.
6) Convenience. One might think the drives are more convenient, but we already have much of this data on a couple large external drives for ready-access (although they're close to full now!), but this is all about archival. Storing stuff that we want to be sure it's around for decades to come, even if the house or office burns down.
All this said, it was a good exercise in checking out what looks like a pretty neat product, and I thank you for pointing it out. Even if it's not something we choose to use for this particular application, I'm happy to know about it.
Anyone else have thoughts on large-ish scale backup if and when optical drives start disappearing?
That was a quickie list I threw together, that drive was the first one that came up on Newegg. I personally prefer to buy boxed(retail packaging) drives over a bare oem. Now if you are patient you can find 1tb-1.5tb boxed drives on sale that the price per gigabyte is close to the one I listed. For back up drives I have no problem using green drives (slower rotation and performance) as they are cheaper and use less power.
To my way of thinking if you have more then one or two drives then the price of the hot swap enclosure becomes moot, but maybe thats just me.
100 disks for $20. So that works out to be 100x4.3Gb=430Gb $20/430Gb=.0465 per Gb.
Using a better rated drive on new egg (4 out 5 eggs) it's a 2 Tb Western Digital green for $99.
That is $99/2000Gb=$.0495
So the cost per gigabyte is very similar even though buying two drives (one for back up and one for off site storage) does make you spend more up front.
Lets add the one time cost of an Newertech usb hard drive dock of 34.99.
$34.99+$99=$133.99/2000Gb=.066996 Gb.
That is pretty close to the price you pay for the disks, and drives are only getting cheaper. I have no problem if you prefer dvd's.
Also, I am pretty sure I saw somewhere an older style dock that works with ide drives. Perhaps dig around on Newegg.
Anyone else have thoughts on large-ish scale backup if and when optical drives start disappearing?
For on-site backup, a RAID array or something more flexible like a Drobo is the way to go. For off-site storage, you could use a HD dock with drives you rotate for redundancy, but that's a huge hassle. I know you poo-pooed this earlier, but online backup like Carbonite or Mozy.
All? How are they going to sell and install Mac OS X software? Hopefully they can figure out how to make 8GB USB flash drives for Mac OS X Lion cheap enough, but that is still a partition.
There is another option that would eliminate physical media for rich OS updates altogether, but that?s probably still too involved and complex for Apple to pursue at this time.
To be clear, MS Office and Adobe products are available for DL, just not through the Mac App Store. If Apple isn?t make much money on those suites as it is it might behoove them to eliminate them altogether. How many are buying these apps at Apple Stores and apple.com anyway?
Snow Leopard came on a USB flash drive with my Macbook air
They already are. My new MBA came with OSX on a USB stick.
MacBook Air's already come with a thumb drive for re-installing.
The latest MacBook Airs ship with the System Restore "disc" on a flash memory module.
Snow Leopard came on a USB flash drive with my Macbook air
I guess my post was a bit confusing. I thought my comment about ?cheap enough? and mentioning the 8GB NAND used in the MBAs was self evident.
Regarding ?cheap enough?, consider the differences you guys are stating as one and the same. Including a physical restore disc in a Mac that starts at $999 and sells a million or so per quarter is vastly different than creating several times as many of this USB flash drives that are sold for much less money. Apple includes iLife with the cost of a Mac but any of the software updates they charge for it, so it?s not likely Apple will sell an 8GB USB flash drive with Mac OS X Lion for $29. That?s the difference.
I think it?s likely they?ll offer USB Flash drive for Lion (they have to for the MBAs that ship with Snow Leopard), but also have the standard DVD installer for the majority of Mac users who still have DVD drives. You?ll be able to pay the premium for the faster, smaller, and ?cooler? option, but it?ll likely cost more. By Mac OS X 10.8 it will all be on USB.
Yeah I downloaded MS Office 11 (only cos I got it for £9 on employee purchase!) Some of the combo updates are close to 1GB nowadays so downloading the new OS X probably wouldn't be vastly different. But it sucks having to repeat the process for all the Macs in the house.
One of the more obvious issues with doing a download-only OS update that rewrites all the system files are the checks and balances to prevent something from going wrong, and the ability for a backup plan if something does go wrong. They?d need to check the entire file after it?s downloaded. Not an issue. They?d have to allow the installer app to first setup a partition for the system files to reside with a dynamic partition resizing. This can often be done very easily, if you?re not using too much of your drive and the system can?t resize to make that partition. They can also have it say you need a different drive, allow you to copy it to an external harddrive, USB flash drive, SD card, etc. That partition needs to have it?s own checks that it will be a solid boot partition and have all the apps one might need to fix any issues.
Like I said, all possible, but not as likely as Apple having customers pay $5-8 more for a USB flash drive for the updater.
When's Apple coming out with the seamless home server product - we've all got two or three Macs at home nowadays and need to keep all of them in check.
That would be sweet. Time Capsule just doesn?t cut it for an interconnected home. iOS-based and multiple hot-swapple drives.
I have owned Apples since the Apple II back in 1980. I live in the mountains of Colorado and only have dial up at 32Kps for internet access. My only source for Apple software upgrades is via DVD. The day Apple stops producing DVDs as a way to purchase software for the Mac is the day I quit Apple and go Windows.
Well, I regret to say it, but I think eventually boxing will be scarce even in windows, it is the trend
George
What would this mean for business that use disk images for setting up Macs? Would every Mac in the company need to be registered on iTunes?