Actually there are credit cards today which have RFID chips in them and you can buy a scanner and easily steal people credit card information without even touching the card. You just need to come within a few feet of them and you can retrieve the necessary information. The same can also be done if the device is in a phone. BTW, this is already happening people are getting their CC information stolen with portable scanners.
I actually show my ID most times I do a CC transaction since my CC has written on check ID and most people then ask to check ID which I am happy to show.
Writing "check ID" on your card is a great first step. Of course, using your CC only when necessary is the next step. Why people need to use credit/debit cards for every little frickin' cup of coffee is beyond me. It's not hard to carry a few bucks in your pocket. Sheesh.
You can (and SHOULD) request your CC issuer to provide you with a non-RFID card. I'm not sure if they are legally required to provide you with that option, but the issuers I'm aware of all provide that option. It's as simple as a phone call or visit to your local bank branch. Been there, done that. It's a lot easier than smashing the bulge with a hammer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz
You're completely right that putting an RFID chip in the phone in your pocket is really no different than implanting one under your skin, 90% of the day.
However my research has shown that as far as tracking individuals goes, the GPS module in ours phones is more than adequate to do that right now.
My issue with RFID and NFC is the potential for wireless identity theft.[/B]
People aren't nearly worried enough about this. And I'm hearing some really stupid responses from (especially younger people) like "oh, it's no big deal, the banks protect me if someone steals my CC info". Depending on what data is stolen and misused, it can be a much bigger deal than just getting a new CC. Also, SOMEONE has to pay for this, and the casual attitude about this means the banks and merchants will be paying more to cover fraud, which ultimately gets paid for by the rest of us in high prices.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz
Think of it this way. If the NSA decided 5 years ago that they wanted to track and trace the movements of every person in America, and wanted to advance a mandatory government program for tracking you publicly, the outrage would have been gargantuan.
Instead, they encourage the use of the already existing "social networks" on which people, a huge number of them, actually volunteer this information multiple times per day.
Yup, here's the best cartoon. Note it was drawn in 2006.
Is there anyone here who would be cool with an implanted RFID? If not, why the hell are you okay with what's happening in the cell phone world now?
OK, here is my imaginative scenario of the "twist" The phone will have a RFID, but for added security, the account holder of whatever credit/debit account that is being used will have their "face" stored on Apple's server farm. Whenever the phone is used to make a payment, the phone will ask to hold the phone up to see the user's face and if it matches with what is on the server, then it will approve the sale, maybe a voice authorization too.
...
I hope this is not something you're actually advocating. It's bad enough already, this scene you are describing is a nightmare. The privacy (and safety) issues with a system like that are mind-boggling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logisticaldron
PS: Aren?t you afraid of posting on an internet forum? You email address and IP address is known to the government. They know where you are. If you pose a threat to their super-secret goal they could come after you? once and for all.
This is the kind of bullshit knee-jerk response that every thread like this gets. Cue the Beavis/Butthead voice: "huh huh, where's your tinfoil hat, heh huh". It's too bad you can't actually engage constructively on the topic.
You are right in that one could use Near Field for RFID however that is not the best use of RFID nor Near Field capabilities. The reason that you can communicate with RFID chips over long distances of several meters, is that it operates in the far field region of the RFID antenna. Have a look at the following page for the formula used in defining the near field and far field regions of an antenna.
In the far field your are dealing with travelling waves, radiation, hence you can communicate over several meters. Or if you have got more powerful RFID systems, active RFID, you may go to longer distances.
Actually, it can be much longer distances. It doesn't take a ton of $ or talent to built a transceiver that can operate from a distance, as has been demonstrated in real life. The ability to capture any data that can potentially identify an individual wirelessly is dangerous. Especially things like passports when traveling to foreign countries, where Americans can be targeted. This isn't purely theoretical, it's a real danger.
With passports in particular, even the "shields" they give you don't block signals from all angles. The whole RFID/NFC field is in its infancy and there's a lot to be learned and understood. Unfortunately, most consumers are just sheep, and they believe everything they are told (until it's too late).
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFreeman
In the near field, you are dealing with the inductive coupling of two antennas. Actually in this case, since there is no radiation, we no longer use the term antenna. The antenna is now referred to as coil. And the near field communication is the changes in the inductive coupling between of the two coils (receiver and transmitter coils)
Current NFC devices have a maximum range of 20cm. Hence you cannot use them for wifi applications or anything of the sort. This is not a technology limitation but Electromagnetic fields limitation.
No apologies for length needed. It's nice to have meaningful information and conversations.
I'm leery of claims that a device cannot be pinged from farther than N meters or centimeters because similar claims were made of RFID a few years back. Often it only takes an enterprising engineering-type to prove those claims wrong. I'll have to read up more on the differences between RFID and NFC.
However, even 20 cm can easily provide means for individuals to be tracked and/or data potentially stolen. Anywhere that people are "funneled" provides a perfect opportunity. i.e. entry doorways, elevators, escalators, etc. This isn't some kind of gub-mint conspiracy theory, but rather a very serious potential for fraud and identity theft (as well as unwarranted tracking). What people need to consider is that if these devices become "standard", the payoff for stealing this data becomes huge. When lots of money is at stake, it becomes profitable to go to great effort to exploit any possible security holes.
It's amazing how paranoid Americans are about smartcards & NFC, technologies that are proven in the real world to increase consumer security massively. Everywhere in the world, thieves look for American credit cards because they are so easy to hack. Every time you give you card to a waiter in a restaurant, you are risking identity theft. Not so with smartcards or phone-based NFC. In terms of privacy and security, Europe & Korea/Japan are light years ahead of us, and they are far more "connected."
Why anyone would ever hand their CC over to wait staff in restaurants anymore is beyond me. Especially, as you say, here in the U.S.
My security (you didn't note privacy, but that's the other 1/2 of the equation) would most certainly NOT increased by using NFC. I use cash for most "typical" transactions. People are such lazy-asses these days, using CCs for every little purchase. When you dig in and find out how much data harvesting and selling goes on behind the scenes it just feels dirty using plastic. Makes me want to take a shower.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel
Richard Stallman is a nutcase, but we've known that to be true for over 20 years. Maybe if he took a trip to one of the countries that already uses lots of NFC, he would change his thick mind.
Stallman may or may not be a nutcase, but I don't think anyone will argue that he isn't a very smart man. I wouldn't dismiss all his views out of hand based on his eccentricity.
There are two related, but separate issues.
1) Is your identification and financial data safe from being stolen while it's being transmitted from your card to a merchant's device. This is questionable, at best, but NFC may be helpful in some ways.
2) Is your identification and financial data safe while, and after, it's in the hands of the merchant, CC processor(s), and banks. Both from a security standpoint and from a privacy standpoint?? Unless you have told your CC issuer otherwise, your personal information is sold out the back end. I verified this with my bank after spiking my data and watching what happened. It's a fun exercise, and I highly recommend it!
The NFC portion only affects #1. Sadly, many people seem unconcerned about the latter. Hopefully, as we become more educated as a society at large, people will pay more attention, but I'm not optimistic in the short term.
The activity of the animal beings has become acutely active everywhere on this earth. Bodies do not get time to booty a blow for a while. With the accretion use of altered gadgets of Gps Jammer, the possibilities of accepting the aboriginal of blow accept absolutely finished. The adaptable phones or the corpuscle phones are some of these accessories that accumulate the bodies consistently in blow with the alfresco world. The adaptable building are additionally accessible about everywhere these canicule and due to this the accessibility of the Cell Phone Jammer has become alike added quick and authentic. Today, you cannot break out of ability of these adaptable building as their signals can bolt your about anywhere. The bearings of bodies who accord to altered business professions has become actual analytical of wireless jamming as their authorities bolt them anywhere any moment.
Comments
Actually there are credit cards today which have RFID chips in them and you can buy a scanner and easily steal people credit card information without even touching the card. You just need to come within a few feet of them and you can retrieve the necessary information. The same can also be done if the device is in a phone. BTW, this is already happening people are getting their CC information stolen with portable scanners.
I actually show my ID most times I do a CC transaction since my CC has written on check ID and most people then ask to check ID which I am happy to show.
Writing "check ID" on your card is a great first step. Of course, using your CC only when necessary is the next step. Why people need to use credit/debit cards for every little frickin' cup of coffee is beyond me. It's not hard to carry a few bucks in your pocket. Sheesh.
You can (and SHOULD) request your CC issuer to provide you with a non-RFID card. I'm not sure if they are legally required to provide you with that option, but the issuers I'm aware of all provide that option. It's as simple as a phone call or visit to your local bank branch. Been there, done that. It's a lot easier than smashing the bulge with a hammer.
You're completely right that putting an RFID chip in the phone in your pocket is really no different than implanting one under your skin, 90% of the day.
However my research has shown that as far as tracking individuals goes, the GPS module in ours phones is more than adequate to do that right now.
My issue with RFID and NFC is the potential for wireless identity theft.[/B]
People aren't nearly worried enough about this. And I'm hearing some really stupid responses from (especially younger people) like "oh, it's no big deal, the banks protect me if someone steals my CC info". Depending on what data is stolen and misused, it can be a much bigger deal than just getting a new CC. Also, SOMEONE has to pay for this, and the casual attitude about this means the banks and merchants will be paying more to cover fraud, which ultimately gets paid for by the rest of us in high prices.
Think of it this way. If the NSA decided 5 years ago that they wanted to track and trace the movements of every person in America, and wanted to advance a mandatory government program for tracking you publicly, the outrage would have been gargantuan.
Instead, they encourage the use of the already existing "social networks" on which people, a huge number of them, actually volunteer this information multiple times per day.
Yup, here's the best cartoon. Note it was drawn in 2006.
Is there anyone here who would be cool with an implanted RFID? If not, why the hell are you okay with what's happening in the cell phone world now?
OK, here is my imaginative scenario of the "twist" The phone will have a RFID, but for added security, the account holder of whatever credit/debit account that is being used will have their "face" stored on Apple's server farm. Whenever the phone is used to make a payment, the phone will ask to hold the phone up to see the user's face and if it matches with what is on the server, then it will approve the sale, maybe a voice authorization too.
...
I hope this is not something you're actually advocating. It's bad enough already, this scene you are describing is a nightmare. The privacy (and safety) issues with a system like that are mind-boggling.
PS: Aren?t you afraid of posting on an internet forum? You email address and IP address is known to the government. They know where you are. If you pose a threat to their super-secret goal they could come after you? once and for all.
This is the kind of bullshit knee-jerk response that every thread like this gets. Cue the Beavis/Butthead voice: "huh huh, where's your tinfoil hat, heh huh". It's too bad you can't actually engage constructively on the topic.
You are right in that one could use Near Field for RFID however that is not the best use of RFID nor Near Field capabilities. The reason that you can communicate with RFID chips over long distances of several meters, is that it operates in the far field region of the RFID antenna. Have a look at the following page for the formula used in defining the near field and far field regions of an antenna.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraunhofer_distance
In the far field your are dealing with travelling waves, radiation, hence you can communicate over several meters. Or if you have got more powerful RFID systems, active RFID, you may go to longer distances.
Actually, it can be much longer distances. It doesn't take a ton of $ or talent to built a transceiver that can operate from a distance, as has been demonstrated in real life. The ability to capture any data that can potentially identify an individual wirelessly is dangerous. Especially things like passports when traveling to foreign countries, where Americans can be targeted. This isn't purely theoretical, it's a real danger.
With passports in particular, even the "shields" they give you don't block signals from all angles. The whole RFID/NFC field is in its infancy and there's a lot to be learned and understood. Unfortunately, most consumers are just sheep, and they believe everything they are told (until it's too late).
In the near field, you are dealing with the inductive coupling of two antennas. Actually in this case, since there is no radiation, we no longer use the term antenna. The antenna is now referred to as coil. And the near field communication is the changes in the inductive coupling between of the two coils (receiver and transmitter coils)
Current NFC devices have a maximum range of 20cm. Hence you cannot use them for wifi applications or anything of the sort. This is not a technology limitation but Electromagnetic fields limitation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_fi...specifications
Apologies for submitting a very long post.
No apologies for length needed. It's nice to have meaningful information and conversations.
I'm leery of claims that a device cannot be pinged from farther than N meters or centimeters because similar claims were made of RFID a few years back. Often it only takes an enterprising engineering-type to prove those claims wrong. I'll have to read up more on the differences between RFID and NFC.
However, even 20 cm can easily provide means for individuals to be tracked and/or data potentially stolen. Anywhere that people are "funneled" provides a perfect opportunity. i.e. entry doorways, elevators, escalators, etc. This isn't some kind of gub-mint conspiracy theory, but rather a very serious potential for fraud and identity theft (as well as unwarranted tracking). What people need to consider is that if these devices become "standard", the payoff for stealing this data becomes huge. When lots of money is at stake, it becomes profitable to go to great effort to exploit any possible security holes.
It's amazing how paranoid Americans are about smartcards & NFC, technologies that are proven in the real world to increase consumer security massively. Everywhere in the world, thieves look for American credit cards because they are so easy to hack. Every time you give you card to a waiter in a restaurant, you are risking identity theft. Not so with smartcards or phone-based NFC. In terms of privacy and security, Europe & Korea/Japan are light years ahead of us, and they are far more "connected."
Why anyone would ever hand their CC over to wait staff in restaurants anymore is beyond me. Especially, as you say, here in the U.S.
My security (you didn't note privacy, but that's the other 1/2 of the equation) would most certainly NOT increased by using NFC. I use cash for most "typical" transactions. People are such lazy-asses these days, using CCs for every little purchase. When you dig in and find out how much data harvesting and selling goes on behind the scenes it just feels dirty using plastic. Makes me want to take a shower.
Richard Stallman is a nutcase, but we've known that to be true for over 20 years. Maybe if he took a trip to one of the countries that already uses lots of NFC, he would change his thick mind.
Stallman may or may not be a nutcase, but I don't think anyone will argue that he isn't a very smart man. I wouldn't dismiss all his views out of hand based on his eccentricity.
There are two related, but separate issues.
1) Is your identification and financial data safe from being stolen while it's being transmitted from your card to a merchant's device. This is questionable, at best, but NFC may be helpful in some ways.
2) Is your identification and financial data safe while, and after, it's in the hands of the merchant, CC processor(s), and banks. Both from a security standpoint and from a privacy standpoint?? Unless you have told your CC issuer otherwise, your personal information is sold out the back end. I verified this with my bank after spiking my data and watching what happened. It's a fun exercise, and I highly recommend it!
The NFC portion only affects #1. Sadly, many people seem unconcerned about the latter. Hopefully, as we become more educated as a society at large, people will pay more attention, but I'm not optimistic in the short term.
The activity of the animal beings has become acutely active everywhere on this earth. Bodies do not get time to booty a blow for a while. With the accretion use of altered gadgets of Gps Jammer, the possibilities of accepting the aboriginal of blow accept absolutely finished. The adaptable phones or the corpuscle phones are some of these accessories that accumulate the bodies consistently in blow with the alfresco world. The adaptable building are additionally accessible about everywhere these canicule and due to this the accessibility of the Cell Phone Jammer has become alike added quick and authentic. Today, you cannot break out of ability of these adaptable building as their signals can bolt your about anywhere. The bearings of bodies who accord to altered business professions has become actual analytical of wireless jamming as their authorities bolt them anywhere any moment.