People should be very excited as this tech is certainly not a replacement for USB. I'm not sure many in this thread recognize the incredible gulf between the two standards. TB is clearly a solution for things USB could never do.
As to the other posters I see big confusion with respect to the terms used here. Head start does not imply exclusive.
As to implementation this really has me curious. It appears that TB requires a different support chip. I suspect that this might be why Apple has not been held up by the SATA bug. TB most likely has direct access to the DMI bus or whatever it is called on Sandy Bridge. I need to dig up an architecture diagram ASAP. TB could go very far in other industries like instrumentation.
The sandybridge bug effects the sata 2 ports on sandybridge motherboards. The first two sata ports are sata 3. So on a laptop this is not a problem .Usually the hdd is one sata port and the dvd drive is the other. on sandybridge this would be the 2 sata 3 ports which are not effected.
Then you haven't been checking much of late. Apple's world wide is approaching 10% for their Mac install base, and much larger obviously when we include the iOS platform.
he was talking osx not ios, but where are your figures for worldwide install base coming from?
Suggestion from one who has been there for 40 years: when pulling your cable through the smurf tube, be sure to pull a waxed string to be used as a pull when you want to add something. CAT cables aren't flexible enough for this.
Also, regarding the double ganged outlets, you have power in case you ever pull fiber.
I used to feed string in the conduits, but gave up after it was more of a pain than it was worth. The Cat6 I use has a very heavy sheath around it so I do not need string in the conduits. I just mask-tape the ends with regular blue-tape with the tape rolled into a cone that extends a couple inches past the end of the cable and it self-aligns. No problem.
With fiber cabling, I insert the fishing cable (the thick plastic lines) into one end and then pull the cabling through. It all works great.
For those complaining about Thunderbolt not having power for fiber, chances are if you're going to feed 100ft of fiber, whatever you're plugging it into will most likely need more power than what the cabling can support anyways. It's moot.
I don't know if and how much better this Thunderbolt is compared to USB3... but it is missing one thing USB has, and that is backward compatibility with USB2. Moving to USB3 is no brainer for manufacturers - everything will work.
Backward compatibility with USB3 is irrelevant but for those who need it, Intel does state in its Thunderbolt info:
Quote:
Extend to reach other I/O technologies by using adapters that use widely available PCI Express controllers. It's simple to create a Gigabit Ethernet, or FireWire, or eSATA adapters using existing device PCI Express drivers.
It be unsurprising if you complained about USB's incompatibility with RS-232 ports at the first iMac's introduction in 1998 with USB ports..
Besides, adapters soon appeared for the minority who still needed those legacy ports.
The new standard is not backwardly compatible with USB 3.0, and Thunderbolt ports can't be added to existing PCs via an expansion card; Intel says the only way to have it is to buy a system or logic board that incorporates the new Thunderbolt controller chip. That's because the Thunderbolt chip needs direct access to both the system's video and PCI Express architecture.
Ok I am confused. If I have a Mac pro and my video card is in a pci slot, how is thunderbolt going to access my video card if it can only work if it has direct access on the motherboard?
Um... this is bad reporting. "One year head start" != exclusive. The difference is this: if it was the latter, I couldn't ask Intel for the support this year even if I paid them. The former just says that Apple had all the design documents before any other manufacturer did, but if they can hurry up with new products, Intel would be happy to let them release them.
Exclusive means restricted or available to a limited set. While you might think it means "a contract saying only one group can get it," the fact that Apple will be the only one offering it for the next year does indeed make it exclusive.
The fact that you'd make a production about a word and try to drum it up as "bad reporting" just makes you an asshole.
First of all, the initial headline is wrong. There is no post-release exclusivity, the one year's headstart is the pre-release 12 months when Apple worked with Intel in partnership to develop the technology. Wikipedia:
"Thunderbolt (codenamed Light Peak) is a proprietary interface designed by Intel in collaboration with Apple Inc."
As for "will it work with my Mac Pro/PC whatever?" Did nobody read the bit that says it will only work if you buy a motherboard with it on?
Sheesh, I know handwriting is poor these days, but reading too? Bit of irresponsible reporting from AppleInsider though...
Exclusive means restricted or available to a limited set. While you might think it means "a contract saying only one group can get it," the fact that Apple will be the only one offering it for the next year does indeed make it exclusive.
The fact that you'd make a production about a word and try to drum it up as "bad reporting" just makes you an asshole.
You can purchase it exclusively from apple for however long period before anyone else can supply it, but it is not exclusively supplied to apple, which is what AI claimed. Denying this turns you into what you claim the other poster is.
As for "will it work with my Mac Pro/PC whatever?" Did nobody read the bit that says it will only work if you buy a motherboard with it on?
Fine, so Thunderbolt ports on the Mac Pro will not be display-connectable, then. We'll have to have separate, identical-looking Mini DisplayPort ports on the GPUs.
And it failed because it didn't manage to spread through the rest of the market - non-Apple part.
I don't know if and how much better this Thunderbolt is compared to USB3... but it is missing one thing USB has, and that is backward compatibility with USB2. Moving to USB3 is no brainer for manufacturers - everything will work.
We have a winner. USB 3.0 is here now with tons of devices and backwards compatibility. Thunderbolt is nice but it will lose to USB 3.0.
USB 2.0 needed a speed boost. That said once you go past the speed of modern HD's or SSD's the extra speed does nothing for you. I 3.5 inch typical 7200 RPM SATA drive wont go past 80mbs. Sure SSD will, but I need USB 3.0/Thunderbolt speed when moving large amounts of days in the hundreds of gigs to storage, and SSD are just two small. Most 2TB and larger drives are 5400 RPM's.
This allows one port for EVERYTHING. Devices connected to it look to the pc as if they are connected to pcie or as a display port. You can plug in a usb device to it with the right cord even an ethernet adapter.
This is the exact kind of things laptops and netbooks needed.
Name one item that needs this vs. what we already have.
Just noticed that they said the logic board has to come with it. Boy does that suck.
Guess I'll have to get another Mac Pro next revision. Oh well, at least I feel better knowing it's not possible and not Apple withholding something from me.
That is where is the logic for the TB port on the motherboard? Every indication is that the port needs fast access to both system and video RAM. So the question is this is the support chip custom built with TB support built in? Possibly inplace of the SATA 2 controllers.
The problem is pretty simple, there are limited ways to connect a high speed port like this to a system. Intel has already stated that you can't put the required logic on a PCI Express expansion card, so most likely it is integrated into the bridge chip. I'm certain there is more info out there to explain this I just haven't had time to look.
Quote:
Originally Posted by majortom1981
The sandybridge bug effects the sata 2 ports on sandybridge motherboards. The first two sata ports are sata 3. So on a laptop this is not a problem .Usually the hdd is one sata port and the dvd drive is the other. on sandybridge this would be the 2 sata 3 ports which are not effected.
Yes everybody and their brother now knows this. My point is this, do the new Mac Books even use this interface chip. It seems to be extremely likely that another solution is on the motherboard.
I am really excited about this tech, but what options will there be for devices that lack daisy chain capabilities? I have a WD Studio portable hard drive with only a single FW800 port, which makes connecting this and my video camera at the same time, impossible.
Also, I happen to use the wired keyboard with my iMac due to the fact that I use the 10-key regularly, and I have really liked the accessibility of the USB ports on it. My external storage devices are usually tucked away, once they are connected to my iMac, and therefore even for the peripherals with passthrough, the ports become less accessible the more devices you have daisy chained. Just curious what their solution (if any) will be for these types of issues , as I know there aren't many for FW800.
I'm also curious as to how long it will be before Thunderbolt replaces SATA as the interface for internal hard drives. SATA III is just coming to market really at 6 Gbps where Thunderbolt will start at 10 Gbps (seems like it really is utilizing 40 Gbps of total bandwidth though, due to 10 up and 10 down over each of the data and video paths) and scaling to 100 Gbps.
Comments
People should be very excited as this tech is certainly not a replacement for USB. I'm not sure many in this thread recognize the incredible gulf between the two standards. TB is clearly a solution for things USB could never do.
As to the other posters I see big confusion with respect to the terms used here. Head start does not imply exclusive.
As to implementation this really has me curious. It appears that TB requires a different support chip. I suspect that this might be why Apple has not been held up by the SATA bug. TB most likely has direct access to the DMI bus or whatever it is called on Sandy Bridge. I need to dig up an architecture diagram ASAP. TB could go very far in other industries like instrumentation.
The sandybridge bug effects the sata 2 ports on sandybridge motherboards. The first two sata ports are sata 3. So on a laptop this is not a problem .Usually the hdd is one sata port and the dvd drive is the other. on sandybridge this would be the 2 sata 3 ports which are not effected.
Then you haven't been checking much of late. Apple's world wide is approaching 10% for their Mac install base, and much larger obviously when we include the iOS platform.
he was talking osx not ios, but where are your figures for worldwide install base coming from?
How about an iPad in a few weeks?
Not a chance.
Not a chance.
Guess Apple won't be showing us an iPad at the iPad event in six days, then.
Suggestion from one who has been there for 40 years: when pulling your cable through the smurf tube, be sure to pull a waxed string to be used as a pull when you want to add something. CAT cables aren't flexible enough for this.
Also, regarding the double ganged outlets, you have power in case you ever pull fiber.
I used to feed string in the conduits, but gave up after it was more of a pain than it was worth. The Cat6 I use has a very heavy sheath around it so I do not need string in the conduits. I just mask-tape the ends with regular blue-tape with the tape rolled into a cone that extends a couple inches past the end of the cable and it self-aligns. No problem.
With fiber cabling, I insert the fishing cable (the thick plastic lines) into one end and then pull the cabling through. It all works great.
For those complaining about Thunderbolt not having power for fiber, chances are if you're going to feed 100ft of fiber, whatever you're plugging it into will most likely need more power than what the cabling can support anyways. It's moot.
I don't know if and how much better this Thunderbolt is compared to USB3... but it is missing one thing USB has, and that is backward compatibility with USB2. Moving to USB3 is no brainer for manufacturers - everything will work.
Backward compatibility with USB3 is irrelevant but for those who need it, Intel does state in its Thunderbolt info:
Extend to reach other I/O technologies by using adapters that use widely available PCI Express controllers. It's simple to create a Gigabit Ethernet, or FireWire, or eSATA adapters using existing device PCI Express drivers.
It be unsurprising if you complained about USB's incompatibility with RS-232 ports at the first iMac's introduction in 1998 with USB ports..
Besides, adapters soon appeared for the minority who still needed those legacy ports.
The new standard is not backwardly compatible with USB 3.0, and Thunderbolt ports can't be added to existing PCs via an expansion card; Intel says the only way to have it is to buy a system or logic board that incorporates the new Thunderbolt controller chip. That's because the Thunderbolt chip needs direct access to both the system's video and PCI Express architecture.
Ok I am confused. If I have a Mac pro and my video card is in a pci slot, how is thunderbolt going to access my video card if it can only work if it has direct access on the motherboard?
Um... this is bad reporting. "One year head start" != exclusive. The difference is this: if it was the latter, I couldn't ask Intel for the support this year even if I paid them. The former just says that Apple had all the design documents before any other manufacturer did, but if they can hurry up with new products, Intel would be happy to let them release them.
Exclusive means restricted or available to a limited set. While you might think it means "a contract saying only one group can get it," the fact that Apple will be the only one offering it for the next year does indeed make it exclusive.
The fact that you'd make a production about a word and try to drum it up as "bad reporting" just makes you an asshole.
First of all, the initial headline is wrong. There is no post-release exclusivity, the one year's headstart is the pre-release 12 months when Apple worked with Intel in partnership to develop the technology. Wikipedia:
"Thunderbolt (codenamed Light Peak) is a proprietary interface designed by Intel in collaboration with Apple Inc."
As for "will it work with my Mac Pro/PC whatever?" Did nobody read the bit that says it will only work if you buy a motherboard with it on?
Sheesh, I know handwriting is poor these days, but reading too? Bit of irresponsible reporting from AppleInsider though...
Exclusive means restricted or available to a limited set. While you might think it means "a contract saying only one group can get it," the fact that Apple will be the only one offering it for the next year does indeed make it exclusive.
The fact that you'd make a production about a word and try to drum it up as "bad reporting" just makes you an asshole.
You can purchase it exclusively from apple for however long period before anyone else can supply it, but it is not exclusively supplied to apple, which is what AI claimed. Denying this turns you into what you claim the other poster is.
As for "will it work with my Mac Pro/PC whatever?" Did nobody read the bit that says it will only work if you buy a motherboard with it on?
Fine, so Thunderbolt ports on the Mac Pro will not be display-connectable, then. We'll have to have separate, identical-looking Mini DisplayPort ports on the GPUs.
Guess Apple won't be showing us an iPad at the iPad event in six days, then.
They will be showing us an iPad they just won't be showing one with thunderbolt.
And it failed because it didn't manage to spread through the rest of the market - non-Apple part.
I don't know if and how much better this Thunderbolt is compared to USB3... but it is missing one thing USB has, and that is backward compatibility with USB2. Moving to USB3 is no brainer for manufacturers - everything will work.
We have a winner. USB 3.0 is here now with tons of devices and backwards compatibility. Thunderbolt is nice but it will lose to USB 3.0.
USB 2.0 needed a speed boost. That said once you go past the speed of modern HD's or SSD's the extra speed does nothing for you. I 3.5 inch typical 7200 RPM SATA drive wont go past 80mbs. Sure SSD will, but I need USB 3.0/Thunderbolt speed when moving large amounts of days in the hundreds of gigs to storage, and SSD are just two small. Most 2TB and larger drives are 5400 RPM's.
This allows one port for EVERYTHING. Devices connected to it look to the pc as if they are connected to pcie or as a display port. You can plug in a usb device to it with the right cord even an ethernet adapter.
This is the exact kind of things laptops and netbooks needed.
Name one item that needs this vs. what we already have.
Guess I'll have to get another Mac Pro next revision. Oh well, at least I feel better knowing it's not possible and not Apple withholding something from me.
The problem is pretty simple, there are limited ways to connect a high speed port like this to a system. Intel has already stated that you can't put the required logic on a PCI Express expansion card, so most likely it is integrated into the bridge chip. I'm certain there is more info out there to explain this I just haven't had time to look.
The sandybridge bug effects the sata 2 ports on sandybridge motherboards. The first two sata ports are sata 3. So on a laptop this is not a problem .Usually the hdd is one sata port and the dvd drive is the other. on sandybridge this would be the 2 sata 3 ports which are not effected.
Yes everybody and their brother now knows this. My point is this, do the new Mac Books even use this interface chip. It seems to be extremely likely that another solution is on the motherboard.
Awesome! Now what can I plug it into, today?
Sometimes Steve skates a little too far ahead of the puck.
This would be good for fast Time Machine backups.
Not a chance.
Hay dudas!
Also, I happen to use the wired keyboard with my iMac due to the fact that I use the 10-key regularly, and I have really liked the accessibility of the USB ports on it. My external storage devices are usually tucked away, once they are connected to my iMac, and therefore even for the peripherals with passthrough, the ports become less accessible the more devices you have daisy chained. Just curious what their solution (if any) will be for these types of issues , as I know there aren't many for FW800.
I'm also curious as to how long it will be before Thunderbolt replaces SATA as the interface for internal hard drives. SATA III is just coming to market really at 6 Gbps where Thunderbolt will start at 10 Gbps (seems like it really is utilizing 40 Gbps of total bandwidth though, due to 10 up and 10 down over each of the data and video paths) and scaling to 100 Gbps.