How can jailbreakers patch all of the security holes when Apple is in charge of the underlying code? How do you figure the jailbreaking community has a better handle on iOS code than Apple?
The OS has been jailbroken through a security exploit. So you are saying the jailbreaking software uses a security exploit to break into the OS and then closes the exploit behind it.
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Originally Posted by HKZ
. There have been many times when a jailbroken iPhone has been more secure than a stock one.
Again if the jailbreakers are so innovative and creative, why did they not create iOS?
I see nothing innovative about altering iOS or changing the way the UI works. Its easy to criticize and throw rocks at the people who are actually doing things.
I would be impressed if they built something truly better than iOS.
Yes the developers are piggybacking on Apple's work. Apple created the entire user experience and framework, the developer isn't doing any of that work, the developer is creating on top of that.
The rest of what you are saying is just opinionated fluff. What you are talking about is akin to painting eye brows on the Mona Lisa and then claiming that its so much better than what the original artist had done. I want to see them actually create something that doesn't stand on the shoulders of someone else's work.
Obviously you're completely close minded, never used any jailbreak app or modification, or both. I'd say alot of both. I'm not interested in debating someone that has no experience in either and has no critical thinking skills. No one likes having to switch apps just to reply 'yes' to a text message. No one likes to dismiss a long list of popups, stopping everything in a grinding halt to do so, and then not having a way to go back and deal with each one by one and take the appropriate actions. Since you've obviously never used biteSMS your opinion on what I've said has no merit at all. It's an improvement in every sense of the word on the stock SMS app, not an opinion. The stock SMS app is crap from the way it handles messages to the way you reply to them. That's fact and I've NEVER read anything that has said otherwise. It's lacking in every respect and hasn't changed in four years. A jailbreak app fixes this and has innovative ways of doing so.
How can jailbreakers patch all of the security holes when Apple is in charge of the underlying code? How do you figure the jailbreaking community has a better handle on iOS code than Apple?
The OS has been jailbroken through a security exploit. So you are saying the jailbreaking software uses a security exploit to break into the OS and then closes the exploit behind it.
Yes I am. It's been done twice with the website jailbreakme.com
The first was a .tiff exploit in Mobile Safari and was patched immediately after being used on firmware 1.1.1 and the second used a Mobile Safari PDF exploit in 4.0. It was also fixed with a warning notifying users exactly what would happen and why. Apple didn't notify any of it's customers of either of these exploits and both were fixed first by the jailbreak community, the second not exactly a fix but a good heads up warning and the only way to know was to be jailbroken. In both cases the most secure iPhone was a jailbroken one until Apple fixed the problems with a new firmware.
They don't have a better handle than Apple, I didn't say they did. Do you seriously think that a person that is using an exploit to compromise a system doesn't know how to fix it? That's how they've made patches to close the hole. Despite what 99% of people think those jailbreak devs aren't out to 'stick it to the man' and steal apps. They just want to run what they want on their phones, no different than what Android users want to do when they root to sideload apps.
Obviously you're completely close minded, never used any jailbreak app or modification, or both. I'd say alot of both. I'm not interested in debating someone that has no experience in either and has no critical thinking skills.
No critical thinking skills? I can think critically enough to see a problem with someone altering someone else's work and then declaring themselves innovative and creative.
There is little originality in making superficial alterations to someone else work.
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No one likes having to switch apps just to reply 'yes' to a text message. No one likes to dismiss a long list of popups, stopping everything in a grinding halt to do so, and then not having a way to go back and deal with each one by one and take the appropriate actions.
The problem is that you give yourself the freedom to make these wide sweeping declarations of certainty. You cannot speak for everyone, you can only speak for yourself.
200+ million people have bought and use iOS devices. They use them with all of the functionality that you claim "no one" wants to use. An extreme small number of people jailbreak to add any of the modifications you feel are so much better.
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Since you've obviously never used biteSMS your opinion on what I've said has no merit at all. It's an improvement in every sense of the word on the stock SMS app, not an opinion. The stock SMS app is crap from the way it handles messages to the way you reply to them. That's fact and I've NEVER read anything that has said otherwise. It's lacking in every respect and hasn't changed in four years. A jailbreak app fixes this and has innovative ways of doing so.
That's fine that you like the alterations that jailbreaking offers. But this is all your singular opinion, your opinion is not fact.
Can you link to any articles (outisde of the jailbreaking community) where people make the complaints that you are making.
Another important part of this that you never address. If iOS needs so much improvement why is it so popular?
Apple patches a lot more security holes than that with each OS update. Apple has to deal with security across the entire OS which is a lot more involved than just this.
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Originally Posted by HKZ
The first was a .tiff exploit in Mobile Safari and was patched immediately after being used on firmware 1.1.1 and the second used a Mobile Safari PDF exploit in 4.0. It was also fixed with a warning notifying users exactly what would happen and why. Apple didn't notify any of it's customers of either of these exploits and both were fixed first by the jailbreak community, the second not exactly a fix but a good heads up warning and the only way to know was to be jailbroken. In both cases the most secure iPhone was a jailbroken one until Apple fixed the problems with a new firmware.
No critical thinking skills? I can think critically enough to see a problem with someone altering someone else's work and then declaring themselves innovative and creative.
There is little originality in making superficial alterations to someone else work.
There's your problem. Since you seem to have never used a jailbroken iPhone you call them superficial alterations whereas someone who has knows they fix and improve upon the experience in new ways. Again, have you ever used a jailbroken phone and seen what it can do and improve? I can see a problem with someone outright dismissing that there are glaring problems, inelegant ways of doing tasks, knowing there are ways to improve them, and watching my parents get frustrated that they have to stop what they are doing to respond with a one word reply and go back to what they were doing.
You are very close minded in thinking that changing the behavior of iOS can't be better and the UI needs no improvement. That's the very definition of being close minded, accepting no alternative and no change. Notifications are crap on iOS, the very worst thing about it. To think that someone improving it and making changes for the better is akin to drawing eyebrows on the Mona Lisa is hilarious. We aren't talking changing just the look, we are talking changing the function. You should be very impressed that a lowly knuckle dragger developer could write an app that is miles ahead of the stock app Apple hasn't implemented a quantifiable change in four years of it's life. If you had ever used biteSMS you'd know that, but you haven't so you're stating it can't possibly be better and deserves scorn for piggybacking of another persons work. Pot calling the kettle black?
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Originally Posted by TenoBell
The problem is that you give yourself the freedom to make these wide sweeping declarations of certainty. You cannot speak for everyone, you can only speak for yourself.
Alright, lets take a poll and see who likes having a text popup interrupt them showing someone something on their phone. (I don't particularly like having a text from my girlfriend popup on screen when showing someone a youtube video, I can hide the content but not set wether I want it to do it at all, that's a retarded notification system) Lets take a poll and see who likes having a popup interrupt them writing an email. Lets take a poll asking who like having the same ding sound as the other 200 million iOS device owners. Lets take a poll and see who actually likes the 15 second text tones that Apple was gracious enough to restrict to iPhone 4 owners. Lets take a poll on who likes to drill down in the setting to turn 3G on and off and set the brightness. I'd bet I'm pretty close to damn near everyone doesn't like that, especially if they could alleviate all those things. Many things take more taps than should be required. Jailbreaking adds a brightness setting to the multitask tray, why didn't Apple? Again, have you used a jailbroken iOS device to see what changes can be made?
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Originally Posted by TenoBell
200+ million people have bought and use iOS devices. They use them with all of the functionality that you claim "no one" wants to use. An extreme small number of people jailbreak to add any of the modifications you feel are so much better.
Again, we can poll users to see who's right about all the things I've said need to be fixed and those that have. I'm pretty sure if it were available to the majority of users they would adopt it very quickly, and be very happy they were there because I hear alot of frustration about simple things the iPhone does. Maybe you only see people that don't think Apple can make mistakes or don't have bulletproof ideas, maybe they can't say anything detrimental about Apple. I don't know. But I do know that just because people buy something doesn't mean they aren't unhappy with problems that can be easily fixed and needs to be fixed after being broken for the last four years. I didn't mean no one wants to use them, no one likes the way a few things are done in iOS and notifications are a laughably bad implementation.
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Originally Posted by TenoBell
That's fine that you like the alterations that jailbreaking offers. But this is all your singular opinion, your opinion is not fact.
Can you link to any articles (outisde of the jailbreaking community) where people make the complaints that you are making.
Another important part of this that you never address. If iOS needs so much improvement why is it so popular?
It's popular because it's deemed the best that's out there. I like iOS far more than the alternatives, but I'm not so blind as to see the glaring faults it has. Not one iOS device user I've met has liked the message popups. Not one. Not one has liked not being able to reply in app to a text either. Just because I think there are faults doesn't mean I think it's all bad, I don't think that at all. I just know there are improvements to be made and they haven't been since the iPhone was introduced to the world.
Now to the links:
Two whole posts before talking about custom SMS tones
Even if you have the new tones, what you see is what you get; you still can't add your own custom SMS tones without jailbreaking. For another thing, as Chris Rawson pointed out last week, these new SMS alerts are mostly freakishly long -- who has time to wait for 10 seconds of music whenever they get a text? It is a puzzlement.
We're at version 4 of this OS, and we're still plagued by these intrusive, productivity-freezing alerts. If you're as busy as we are, then you know what it's like to get invite after invite for your calendar, text messages, and push notifications that just stall the phone out. While every other modern OS-maker has figured out an elegant way to deal with notifications (including the forthcoming Windows Phone 7), Apple clings to this broken system. Why? We can't really say.
To add onto my closing exploits when Apple doesn't, iPhone 3G owners were left in the cold by Apple on the PDF exploit. They didn't release a fix for that and the only way to be secure was to jailbreak. They could have cooked up a firmware for it to fix the exploit but didn't. No excuse for that at all.
Apple patches a lot more security holes than that with each OS update. Apple has to deal with security across the entire OS which is a lot more involved than just this.
They were remotely executable, especially the PDF one since there was nothing the user had to do to make it work. To make excuses about 'they have alot to do' is foolish and lame, the PDF exploit didn't have to have any nefarious smokescreen to work, all the user had to do was open a benign PDF and they were compromised. Apple has quite a few software engineers on staff to fix these things, even more so when they are released to the public and very easy to obtain and reverse. To not patch it within days is irresponsible, it took them over a week.
There's your problem. Since you seem to have never used a jailbroken iPhone you call them superficial alterations whereas someone who has knows they fix and improve upon the experience in new ways.
The alterations are superficial in the context of the need to write and entire OS, user interface, and development framework from the ground up. The jailbreaking community did not have to do any of that, they are using what Apple created.
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I can see a problem with someone outright dismissing that there are glaring problems ,inelegant ways of doing tasks ,knowing there are ways to improve them, and watching my parents get frustrated that they have to stop what they are doing to respond with a one word reply and go back to what they were doing.
Again if people felt iOS is inelegant and needs significant improvement they are free to create their own OS and user experience that is better.
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Again, we can poll users to see who's right about all the things I've said need to be fixed and those that have. I'm pretty sure if it were available to the majority of users they would adopt it very quickly, and be very happy they were there because I hear alot of frustration about simple things the iPhone does.
The market is the poll. The 200+ million people who have purchased iOS devices is the poll.
With that said I agree that there is a lot of room to improve the notifications system.
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It's popular because it's deemed the best that's out there. I like iOS far more than the alternatives, but I'm not so blind as to see the glaring faults it has. Not one iOS device user I've met has liked the message popups. Not one. Not one has liked not being able to reply in app to a text either. Just because I think there are faults doesn't mean I think it's all bad, I don't think that at all. I just know there are improvements to be made and they haven't been since the iPhone was introduced to the world.
I've seen articles about complaints about the notifications system. I've never seen anyone in my regular everyday life complain about the notifications system.
Again if it was as bad as you claim, their wouldn't be hundreds of millions of people using it. But I do agree that it has room for improvement.
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Now to the links:
Your first links are of random people in discussion boards. They don't count.
Your next link is a complaint about setting your own SMS alerts. I don't see that as being a significant feature that jailbreaking your phone adds.
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To add onto my closing exploits when Apple doesn't, iPhone 3G owners were left in the cold by Apple on the PDF exploit. They didn't release a fix for that and the only way to be secure was to jailbreak. They could have cooked up a firmware for it to fix the exploit but didn't. No excuse for that at all.
Apple doesn't release specific feature/bug fixes. When you upgrade your phone you are downloading the entire OS again.
Apple doesn't release patches for iOS. They replace the entire OS.
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Originally Posted by HKZ
They were remotely executable, especially the PDF one since there was nothing the user had to do to make it work. To make excuses about 'they have alot to do' is foolish and lame, the PDF exploit didn't have to have any nefarious smokescreen to work, all the user had to do was open a benign PDF and they were compromised. Apple has quite a few software engineers on staff to fix these things, even more so when they are released to the public and very easy to obtain and reverse. To not patch it within days is irresponsible, it took them over a week.
Apple doesn't release patches for iOS. They replace the entire OS.
Yes I know that. Doesn't excuse them from not patching the exploit for the 3G and releasing an update specifically for that without adding any features. That along with the new text tones only for the iPhone 4 tells me Apple doesn't care about the owners of older hardware as much as the ones who have the newest hardware.
The alterations are superficial in the context of the need to write and entire OS, user interface, and development framework from the ground up. The jailbreaking community did not have to do any of that, they are using what Apple created.
Huh. I didn't think changing a major function of an app was just superficial. Since you haven't answered my question about using a jailbroken iPhone after asking it repeatedly to see if you have any clue about what the discussion is about I'll assume you haven't and completely ignore any response you have on the matter and chalk it up to ignorance.
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Originally Posted by TenoBell
Your first links are of random people in discussion boards. They don't count.
So customers that take the time to voice a grievance don't count? Even on an APPLE discussion board?
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Originally Posted by TenoBell
Your next link is a complaint about setting your own SMS alerts. I don't see that as being a significant feature that jailbreaking your phone adds.
So you don't see it as a problem, so it isn't? It is a problem and it's been voiced time and again. I quite like not having to pick a tone that someone stupidly forces me to. All of them are too quiet, and too long. If Apple were such the innovator and wonderful corporation that you believe them to be, what's the rationale about not allowing something so simple. We are on almost the fifth iOS version and four years into it and it still isn't possible. Not only is it not possible they pull a bullshit move and only allow the newer tones on the iPhone 4. If that's not a slap in the face I don't know what is.
I've gotten the vibe that not only have you not used a jailbroken iOS device you aren't going to and have absolutely no clue on what jailbreaking offers in terms of improvements and changes. I do thank you for seemingly not seeing jailbreakers as pirates and thieves though. Refreshing to see someone not like jailbreaking, for unfounded and ignorant reasons aside, and not scream thief and baby killer. Thanks for that.
And for the record, I advocate piracy. (That's right, I said it.)
So, you advocate the Somali Pirates taking over boats of rich people to kill them, right?
In other thoughts, I find it not surprising that Scion would be marketing to the jailbreaking community. According to a survey I've seen of the ten top ticketed vehicles, *all* of the Scion vehicles available were on the list. Funny thing, too, is the tC is listed as the *lousy* starter vehicle (replacing the 1998 Ford Escort) in Racing Live. Maybe they just don't perform well enough to evade the cops...
Huh. I didn't think changing a major function of an app was just superficial.
In the larger scheme of software development. Yes it is superficial, jailbreakers are largely hacking and modifying the code that already exists. Most of the time they are finding and taking advantage of code in iOS that Apple has placed in there and have done nothing with yet.
Do you really believe that jailbreaking developers are thinking of things and doing things that Apple isn't already experimenting with in its labs? Apple is able to modify iOS in ways the jailbreakers are not nearly as capable of.
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Since you haven't answered my question about using a jailbroken iPhone after asking it repeatedly to see if you have any clue about what the discussion is about I'll assume you haven't and completely ignore any response you have on the matter and chalk it up to ignorance.
No I don't jailbreak my phone. Yes I seen a jailbroken phone. In light of the fact that I could jailbreak my phone and choose not to.
There is plenty of info about jailbreaking its advantages and disadvantages all over the web. So I disagree that you have to have a jailbroken phone to understand what it does.
I agree that some of the jailbreaking tricks are neat and they show some directions that would be interesting for Apple to follow. Some things I would like to see Apple implement.
As I said before, without a doubt Apple is already playing with and modifying iOS in ways far beyond what the jailbreakers are able to.
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So customers that take the time to voice a grievance don't count? Even on an APPLE discussion board?
No, random people on discussion boards don't count as either reasonable or authoritative.
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So you don't see it as a problem, so it isn't? It is a problem and it's been voiced time and again. I quite like not having to pick a tone that someone stupidly forces me to.
Of what is important to me. The sound of my ring tone ranks pretty far at the bottom.
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I've gotten the vibe that not only have you not used a jailbroken iOS device you aren't going to and have absolutely no clue on what jailbreaking offers in terms of improvements and changes. I do thank you for seemingly not seeing jailbreakers as pirates and thieves though. Refreshing to see someone not like jailbreaking, for unfounded and ignorant reasons aside, and not scream thief and baby killer. Thanks for that.
Again this information is all over the web. Its not a secret.
You don't have to be a jailbreaker to understand this method modifies what Apple has created, but they themselves are not creating the nuts and bolts of the OS itself.
A big name corporation is endorsing jailbreaking. Apple didn't force them or demand or anything like that - they asked politely and Toyota complied.
From Steve Jobs:
Guys, guys. This Scion skin deal. You know what happens to people who.. ..break the rules.
-sent from my iPhone.
From Toyota:
Uhhh. It's gone already! Gone! What were we thinking?!? So sorry, Mr. Jobs.
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Originally Posted by HKZ
Yes I know that. Doesn't excuse them from not patching the exploit for the 3G and releasing an update specifically for that without adding any features. That along with the new text tones only for the iPhone 4 tells me Apple doesn't care about the owners of older hardware as much as the ones who have the newest hardware.
And this is news to you? (I can't speak to that particular 3G exploit or where it stands now, btw, but....)
Apple devices are built well-enough that their dependence on upgrades by the base requires creating support and update obsolescence as well as adding one or two more shiny new things (HW and/or SW) to the follow-ons that create upgrade lust.
Doesn't bother some of us, tho'. My 2005 Tiger iBook is still my accounting and home podcast player even though the battery's completely shot and the six key can only be accessed on the virtual mini-KB. And will be until it no longer runs.
On the positive side, it also frees their offerings from becoming as clogged with legacy support code as MS's. Dropping Rosetta, e.g., in Lion makes perfect sense in this light. And I'm going to hold out for an optical-drive free next gen lighter and/or more capable MBP on the next rev (but will cave and buy if they extend the current shell).
As a side note, this seems to effect 3rd parties as well. Firefox 4 is available on XP (I think) but not on Tiger or any PPC Mac.
Guys, guys. This Scion skin deal. You know what happens to people who.. ..break the rules.
-sent from my iPhone.
From Toyota:
Uhhh. It's gone already! Gone! What were we thinking?!? So sorry, Mr. Jobs.
And this is news to you? (I can't speak to that particular 3G exploit or where it stands now, btw, but....)
Apple devices are built well-enough that their dependence on upgrades by the base requires creating support and update obsolescence as well as adding one or two more shiny new things (HW and/or SW) to the follow-ons that create upgrade lust.
Doesn't bother some of us, tho'. My 2005 Tiger iBook is still my accounting and home podcast player even though the battery's completely shot and the six key can only be accessed on the virtual mini-KB. And will be until it no longer runs.
On the positive side, it also frees their offerings from becoming as clogged with legacy support code as MS's. Dropping Rosetta, e.g., in Lion makes perfect sense in this light. And I'm going to hold out for an optical-drive free next gen lighter and/or more capable MBP on the next rev (but will cave and buy if they extend the current shell).
As a side note, this seems to effect 3rd parties as well. Firefox 4 is available on XP but not on Tiger or any PPC Mac.
It's not really eye opening given Apples track record but if the jailbreakers can fix it, why can't Apple? There is no legacy support code to speak of, the jailbreakme.com exploiter even showed exactly what the exploit was doing and how to fix it. Apple should have released a fix. I don't understand the mentality that a phone that's roughly three years old should be completely abandoned. What is it in the Apple lovers mentality that says two-three year old hardware is obsolete and dropping support is inevitable and should be encouraged? That's stupidity.
No, random people on discussion boards don't count as either reasonable or authoritative.
Well then your opinion on the merits of what jailbreaking usefullness is, it's worth to iOS users, and what is accomplishes are worthless. Especially since you have no practical experience other than 'seeing one.'
I don't know how old you are. But OS upgrades for phones is a relatively new practice. Prior to the iPhone it was not typical to upgrade the software on any phone. For the most part if you wanted the newer OS you had to buy a newer phone.
So your sense of outrage about Apple dropping support for older phones has no basis in history.
As is the case with everything in electronics. Hardware and software move on. At some point you have to drop support of old outdated hardware. The system inside of the iPhone 4 is radically different from what was used in the previous iPhones. For iOS to take full advantage of the newer capabilities they have to drop old hardware.
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Originally Posted by HKZ
It's not really eye opening given Apples track record but if the jailbreakers can fix it, why can't Apple? There is no legacy support code to speak of, the jailbreakme.com exploiter even showed exactly what the exploit was doing and how to fix it. Apple should have released a fix. I don't understand the mentality that a phone that's roughly three years old should be completely abandoned. What is it in the Apple lovers mentality that says two-three year old hardware is obsolete and dropping support is inevitable and should be encouraged? That's stupidity.
Absolutely, I do not suggest anyone link to my posts and post them on some other random message board to support anything.
My over all point in this discussion is that the jailbreaking community is not an R&D department. Apple should not treat them as an R&D department.
The jailbreakers do some interesting things but they are not building anything. Their work is not creating a cohesive and congruent platform.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HKZ
Well then your opinion on the merits of what jailbreaking usefullness is, it's worth to iOS users, and what is accomplishes are worthless. Especially since you have no practical experience other than 'seeing one.'
I don't know how old you are. But OS upgrades for phones is a relatively new practice. Prior to the iPhone it was not typical to upgrade the software on any phone. For the most part if you wanted the newer OS you had to buy a newer phone.
So your sense of outrage about Apple dropping support for older phones has no basis in history.
As is the case with everything in electronics. Hardware and software move on. At some point you have to drop support of old outdated hardware. The system inside of the iPhone 4 is radically different from what was used in the previous iPhones. For iOS to take full advantage of the newer capabilities they have to drop old hardware.
My sense of outrage is baseless? No extra ringtones for the 3GS because of what reason again? No MMS for the original iPhone despite is having the exact same hardware as the 3G for what reason again? Not fixing an exploit on a phone that had stopped being sold by Apple only 68 days previous to it being released? There's a history lesson for you.
WTF are you talking about dropping older hardware support for? It has nothing to do with new features. Not fixing a very real threat to 3G owners by way of a PDF exploit is acceptable? The iPhone 3G was sold online by Apple until May 25, 2010. It was only 68 days from no longer being sold when the exploit was public. If Apple can sell a phone that old, they should support it. It wasn't even 24 months old when they stopped selling it. I don't care to know how old you are, but not everyone can buy a new phone every two years or wants to. By not fixing that exploit the gave a huge 'eff you' to people who bought that phone up to 18 months earlier, and I think they should support a phone they just stopped selling. I don't mean getting support for all the new whiz bang features, but if they know about a huge security hole they should have fixed it.
You keep babbling about taking advantage of new hardware and capabilities, blah blah blah. They don't have to release a firmware with extra features to fix that hole, just a point release with the fix incorporated and BAM! Problem fixed without any trouble. Do you even think before you write? There was no feature release in a new firmware that fixed that exploit and no reason it couldn't have been fixed on an 18 month old phone.
Comments
The OS has been jailbroken through a security exploit. So you are saying the jailbreaking software uses a security exploit to break into the OS and then closes the exploit behind it.
. There have been many times when a jailbroken iPhone has been more secure than a stock one.
Again if the jailbreakers are so innovative and creative, why did they not create iOS?
I see nothing innovative about altering iOS or changing the way the UI works. Its easy to criticize and throw rocks at the people who are actually doing things.
I would be impressed if they built something truly better than iOS.
Yes the developers are piggybacking on Apple's work. Apple created the entire user experience and framework, the developer isn't doing any of that work, the developer is creating on top of that.
The rest of what you are saying is just opinionated fluff. What you are talking about is akin to painting eye brows on the Mona Lisa and then claiming that its so much better than what the original artist had done. I want to see them actually create something that doesn't stand on the shoulders of someone else's work.
Obviously you're completely close minded, never used any jailbreak app or modification, or both. I'd say alot of both. I'm not interested in debating someone that has no experience in either and has no critical thinking skills. No one likes having to switch apps just to reply 'yes' to a text message. No one likes to dismiss a long list of popups, stopping everything in a grinding halt to do so, and then not having a way to go back and deal with each one by one and take the appropriate actions. Since you've obviously never used biteSMS your opinion on what I've said has no merit at all. It's an improvement in every sense of the word on the stock SMS app, not an opinion. The stock SMS app is crap from the way it handles messages to the way you reply to them. That's fact and I've NEVER read anything that has said otherwise. It's lacking in every respect and hasn't changed in four years. A jailbreak app fixes this and has innovative ways of doing so.
How can jailbreakers patch all of the security holes when Apple is in charge of the underlying code? How do you figure the jailbreaking community has a better handle on iOS code than Apple?
The OS has been jailbroken through a security exploit. So you are saying the jailbreaking software uses a security exploit to break into the OS and then closes the exploit behind it.
Yes I am. It's been done twice with the website jailbreakme.com
The first was a .tiff exploit in Mobile Safari and was patched immediately after being used on firmware 1.1.1 and the second used a Mobile Safari PDF exploit in 4.0. It was also fixed with a warning notifying users exactly what would happen and why. Apple didn't notify any of it's customers of either of these exploits and both were fixed first by the jailbreak community, the second not exactly a fix but a good heads up warning and the only way to know was to be jailbroken. In both cases the most secure iPhone was a jailbroken one until Apple fixed the problems with a new firmware.
They don't have a better handle than Apple, I didn't say they did. Do you seriously think that a person that is using an exploit to compromise a system doesn't know how to fix it? That's how they've made patches to close the hole. Despite what 99% of people think those jailbreak devs aren't out to 'stick it to the man' and steal apps. They just want to run what they want on their phones, no different than what Android users want to do when they root to sideload apps.
Obviously you're completely close minded, never used any jailbreak app or modification, or both. I'd say alot of both. I'm not interested in debating someone that has no experience in either and has no critical thinking skills.
No critical thinking skills? I can think critically enough to see a problem with someone altering someone else's work and then declaring themselves innovative and creative.
There is little originality in making superficial alterations to someone else work.
No one likes having to switch apps just to reply 'yes' to a text message. No one likes to dismiss a long list of popups, stopping everything in a grinding halt to do so, and then not having a way to go back and deal with each one by one and take the appropriate actions.
The problem is that you give yourself the freedom to make these wide sweeping declarations of certainty. You cannot speak for everyone, you can only speak for yourself.
200+ million people have bought and use iOS devices. They use them with all of the functionality that you claim "no one" wants to use. An extreme small number of people jailbreak to add any of the modifications you feel are so much better.
Since you've obviously never used biteSMS your opinion on what I've said has no merit at all. It's an improvement in every sense of the word on the stock SMS app, not an opinion. The stock SMS app is crap from the way it handles messages to the way you reply to them. That's fact and I've NEVER read anything that has said otherwise. It's lacking in every respect and hasn't changed in four years. A jailbreak app fixes this and has innovative ways of doing so.
That's fine that you like the alterations that jailbreaking offers. But this is all your singular opinion, your opinion is not fact.
Can you link to any articles (outisde of the jailbreaking community) where people make the complaints that you are making.
Another important part of this that you never address. If iOS needs so much improvement why is it so popular?
The first was a .tiff exploit in Mobile Safari and was patched immediately after being used on firmware 1.1.1 and the second used a Mobile Safari PDF exploit in 4.0. It was also fixed with a warning notifying users exactly what would happen and why. Apple didn't notify any of it's customers of either of these exploits and both were fixed first by the jailbreak community, the second not exactly a fix but a good heads up warning and the only way to know was to be jailbroken. In both cases the most secure iPhone was a jailbroken one until Apple fixed the problems with a new firmware.
No critical thinking skills? I can think critically enough to see a problem with someone altering someone else's work and then declaring themselves innovative and creative.
There is little originality in making superficial alterations to someone else work.
There's your problem. Since you seem to have never used a jailbroken iPhone you call them superficial alterations whereas someone who has knows they fix and improve upon the experience in new ways. Again, have you ever used a jailbroken phone and seen what it can do and improve? I can see a problem with someone outright dismissing that there are glaring problems, inelegant ways of doing tasks, knowing there are ways to improve them, and watching my parents get frustrated that they have to stop what they are doing to respond with a one word reply and go back to what they were doing.
You are very close minded in thinking that changing the behavior of iOS can't be better and the UI needs no improvement. That's the very definition of being close minded, accepting no alternative and no change. Notifications are crap on iOS, the very worst thing about it. To think that someone improving it and making changes for the better is akin to drawing eyebrows on the Mona Lisa is hilarious. We aren't talking changing just the look, we are talking changing the function. You should be very impressed that a lowly knuckle dragger developer could write an app that is miles ahead of the stock app Apple hasn't implemented a quantifiable change in four years of it's life. If you had ever used biteSMS you'd know that, but you haven't so you're stating it can't possibly be better and deserves scorn for piggybacking of another persons work. Pot calling the kettle black?
The problem is that you give yourself the freedom to make these wide sweeping declarations of certainty. You cannot speak for everyone, you can only speak for yourself.
Alright, lets take a poll and see who likes having a text popup interrupt them showing someone something on their phone. (I don't particularly like having a text from my girlfriend popup on screen when showing someone a youtube video, I can hide the content but not set wether I want it to do it at all, that's a retarded notification system) Lets take a poll and see who likes having a popup interrupt them writing an email. Lets take a poll asking who like having the same ding sound as the other 200 million iOS device owners. Lets take a poll and see who actually likes the 15 second text tones that Apple was gracious enough to restrict to iPhone 4 owners. Lets take a poll on who likes to drill down in the setting to turn 3G on and off and set the brightness. I'd bet I'm pretty close to damn near everyone doesn't like that, especially if they could alleviate all those things. Many things take more taps than should be required. Jailbreaking adds a brightness setting to the multitask tray, why didn't Apple? Again, have you used a jailbroken iOS device to see what changes can be made?
200+ million people have bought and use iOS devices. They use them with all of the functionality that you claim "no one" wants to use. An extreme small number of people jailbreak to add any of the modifications you feel are so much better.
Again, we can poll users to see who's right about all the things I've said need to be fixed and those that have. I'm pretty sure if it were available to the majority of users they would adopt it very quickly, and be very happy they were there because I hear alot of frustration about simple things the iPhone does. Maybe you only see people that don't think Apple can make mistakes or don't have bulletproof ideas, maybe they can't say anything detrimental about Apple. I don't know. But I do know that just because people buy something doesn't mean they aren't unhappy with problems that can be easily fixed and needs to be fixed after being broken for the last four years. I didn't mean no one wants to use them, no one likes the way a few things are done in iOS and notifications are a laughably bad implementation.
That's fine that you like the alterations that jailbreaking offers. But this is all your singular opinion, your opinion is not fact.
Can you link to any articles (outisde of the jailbreaking community) where people make the complaints that you are making.
Another important part of this that you never address. If iOS needs so much improvement why is it so popular?
It's popular because it's deemed the best that's out there. I like iOS far more than the alternatives, but I'm not so blind as to see the glaring faults it has. Not one iOS device user I've met has liked the message popups. Not one. Not one has liked not being able to reply in app to a text either. Just because I think there are faults doesn't mean I think it's all bad, I don't think that at all. I just know there are improvements to be made and they haven't been since the iPhone was introduced to the world.
Now to the links:
Two whole posts before talking about custom SMS tones
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=113750
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=743598
http://discussions.apple.com/message...sageID=8107017
http://www.tuaw.com/2011/01/09/dear-...r-alert-tones/
Even if you have the new tones, what you see is what you get; you still can't add your own custom SMS tones without jailbreaking. For another thing, as Chris Rawson pointed out last week, these new SMS alerts are mostly freakishly long -- who has time to wait for 10 seconds of music whenever they get a text? It is a puzzlement.
http://www.tuaw.com/2010/11/22/iphon...s-alert-tones/
From Engadgets iPhone 4 review
We're at version 4 of this OS, and we're still plagued by these intrusive, productivity-freezing alerts. If you're as busy as we are, then you know what it's like to get invite after invite for your calendar, text messages, and push notifications that just stall the phone out. While every other modern OS-maker has figured out an elegant way to deal with notifications (including the forthcoming Windows Phone 7), Apple clings to this broken system. Why? We can't really say.
To add onto my closing exploits when Apple doesn't, iPhone 3G owners were left in the cold by Apple on the PDF exploit. They didn't release a fix for that and the only way to be secure was to jailbreak. They could have cooked up a firmware for it to fix the exploit but didn't. No excuse for that at all.
Apple patches a lot more security holes than that with each OS update. Apple has to deal with security across the entire OS which is a lot more involved than just this.
They were remotely executable, especially the PDF one since there was nothing the user had to do to make it work. To make excuses about 'they have alot to do' is foolish and lame, the PDF exploit didn't have to have any nefarious smokescreen to work, all the user had to do was open a benign PDF and they were compromised. Apple has quite a few software engineers on staff to fix these things, even more so when they are released to the public and very easy to obtain and reverse. To not patch it within days is irresponsible, it took them over a week.
There's your problem. Since you seem to have never used a jailbroken iPhone you call them superficial alterations whereas someone who has knows they fix and improve upon the experience in new ways.
The alterations are superficial in the context of the need to write and entire OS, user interface, and development framework from the ground up. The jailbreaking community did not have to do any of that, they are using what Apple created.
I can see a problem with someone outright dismissing that there are glaring problems ,inelegant ways of doing tasks ,knowing there are ways to improve them, and watching my parents get frustrated that they have to stop what they are doing to respond with a one word reply and go back to what they were doing.
Again if people felt iOS is inelegant and needs significant improvement they are free to create their own OS and user experience that is better.
Again, we can poll users to see who's right about all the things I've said need to be fixed and those that have. I'm pretty sure if it were available to the majority of users they would adopt it very quickly, and be very happy they were there because I hear alot of frustration about simple things the iPhone does.
The market is the poll. The 200+ million people who have purchased iOS devices is the poll.
With that said I agree that there is a lot of room to improve the notifications system.
It's popular because it's deemed the best that's out there. I like iOS far more than the alternatives, but I'm not so blind as to see the glaring faults it has. Not one iOS device user I've met has liked the message popups. Not one. Not one has liked not being able to reply in app to a text either. Just because I think there are faults doesn't mean I think it's all bad, I don't think that at all. I just know there are improvements to be made and they haven't been since the iPhone was introduced to the world.
I've seen articles about complaints about the notifications system. I've never seen anyone in my regular everyday life complain about the notifications system.
Again if it was as bad as you claim, their wouldn't be hundreds of millions of people using it. But I do agree that it has room for improvement.
Now to the links:
Your first links are of random people in discussion boards. They don't count.
Your next link is a complaint about setting your own SMS alerts. I don't see that as being a significant feature that jailbreaking your phone adds.
To add onto my closing exploits when Apple doesn't, iPhone 3G owners were left in the cold by Apple on the PDF exploit. They didn't release a fix for that and the only way to be secure was to jailbreak. They could have cooked up a firmware for it to fix the exploit but didn't. No excuse for that at all.
Apple doesn't release specific feature/bug fixes. When you upgrade your phone you are downloading the entire OS again.
They were remotely executable, especially the PDF one since there was nothing the user had to do to make it work. To make excuses about 'they have alot to do' is foolish and lame, the PDF exploit didn't have to have any nefarious smokescreen to work, all the user had to do was open a benign PDF and they were compromised. Apple has quite a few software engineers on staff to fix these things, even more so when they are released to the public and very easy to obtain and reverse. To not patch it within days is irresponsible, it took them over a week.
Apple doesn't release patches for iOS. They replace the entire OS.
Yes I know that. Doesn't excuse them from not patching the exploit for the 3G and releasing an update specifically for that without adding any features. That along with the new text tones only for the iPhone 4 tells me Apple doesn't care about the owners of older hardware as much as the ones who have the newest hardware.
The alterations are superficial in the context of the need to write and entire OS, user interface, and development framework from the ground up. The jailbreaking community did not have to do any of that, they are using what Apple created.
Huh. I didn't think changing a major function of an app was just superficial. Since you haven't answered my question about using a jailbroken iPhone after asking it repeatedly to see if you have any clue about what the discussion is about I'll assume you haven't and completely ignore any response you have on the matter and chalk it up to ignorance.
Your first links are of random people in discussion boards. They don't count.
So customers that take the time to voice a grievance don't count? Even on an APPLE discussion board?
Your next link is a complaint about setting your own SMS alerts. I don't see that as being a significant feature that jailbreaking your phone adds.
So you don't see it as a problem, so it isn't? It is a problem and it's been voiced time and again. I quite like not having to pick a tone that someone stupidly forces me to. All of them are too quiet, and too long. If Apple were such the innovator and wonderful corporation that you believe them to be, what's the rationale about not allowing something so simple. We are on almost the fifth iOS version and four years into it and it still isn't possible. Not only is it not possible they pull a bullshit move and only allow the newer tones on the iPhone 4. If that's not a slap in the face I don't know what is.
I've gotten the vibe that not only have you not used a jailbroken iOS device you aren't going to and have absolutely no clue on what jailbreaking offers in terms of improvements and changes. I do thank you for seemingly not seeing jailbreakers as pirates and thieves though. Refreshing to see someone not like jailbreaking, for unfounded and ignorant reasons aside, and not scream thief and baby killer. Thanks for that.
And for the record, I advocate piracy. (That's right, I said it.)
So, you advocate the Somali Pirates taking over boats of rich people to kill them, right?
In other thoughts, I find it not surprising that Scion would be marketing to the jailbreaking community. According to a survey I've seen of the ten top ticketed vehicles, *all* of the Scion vehicles available were on the list. Funny thing, too, is the tC is listed as the *lousy* starter vehicle (replacing the 1998 Ford Escort) in Racing Live. Maybe they just don't perform well enough to evade the cops...
Huh. I didn't think changing a major function of an app was just superficial.
In the larger scheme of software development. Yes it is superficial, jailbreakers are largely hacking and modifying the code that already exists. Most of the time they are finding and taking advantage of code in iOS that Apple has placed in there and have done nothing with yet.
Do you really believe that jailbreaking developers are thinking of things and doing things that Apple isn't already experimenting with in its labs? Apple is able to modify iOS in ways the jailbreakers are not nearly as capable of.
Since you haven't answered my question about using a jailbroken iPhone after asking it repeatedly to see if you have any clue about what the discussion is about I'll assume you haven't and completely ignore any response you have on the matter and chalk it up to ignorance.
No I don't jailbreak my phone. Yes I seen a jailbroken phone. In light of the fact that I could jailbreak my phone and choose not to.
There is plenty of info about jailbreaking its advantages and disadvantages all over the web. So I disagree that you have to have a jailbroken phone to understand what it does.
I agree that some of the jailbreaking tricks are neat and they show some directions that would be interesting for Apple to follow. Some things I would like to see Apple implement.
As I said before, without a doubt Apple is already playing with and modifying iOS in ways far beyond what the jailbreakers are able to.
So customers that take the time to voice a grievance don't count? Even on an APPLE discussion board?
No, random people on discussion boards don't count as either reasonable or authoritative.
So you don't see it as a problem, so it isn't? It is a problem and it's been voiced time and again. I quite like not having to pick a tone that someone stupidly forces me to.
Of what is important to me. The sound of my ring tone ranks pretty far at the bottom.
I've gotten the vibe that not only have you not used a jailbroken iOS device you aren't going to and have absolutely no clue on what jailbreaking offers in terms of improvements and changes. I do thank you for seemingly not seeing jailbreakers as pirates and thieves though. Refreshing to see someone not like jailbreaking, for unfounded and ignorant reasons aside, and not scream thief and baby killer. Thanks for that.
Again this information is all over the web. Its not a secret.
You don't have to be a jailbreaker to understand this method modifies what Apple has created, but they themselves are not creating the nuts and bolts of the OS itself.
A big name corporation is endorsing jailbreaking. Apple didn't force them or demand or anything like that - they asked politely and Toyota complied.
From Steve Jobs:
Yes I know that. Doesn't excuse them from not patching the exploit for the 3G and releasing an update specifically for that without adding any features. That along with the new text tones only for the iPhone 4 tells me Apple doesn't care about the owners of older hardware as much as the ones who have the newest hardware.
And this is news to you? (I can't speak to that particular 3G exploit or where it stands now, btw, but....)
Apple devices are built well-enough that their dependence on upgrades by the base requires creating support and update obsolescence as well as adding one or two more shiny new things (HW and/or SW) to the follow-ons that create upgrade lust.
Doesn't bother some of us, tho'. My 2005 Tiger iBook is still my accounting and home podcast player even though the battery's completely shot and the six key can only be accessed on the virtual mini-KB. And will be until it no longer runs.
On the positive side, it also frees their offerings from becoming as clogged with legacy support code as MS's. Dropping Rosetta, e.g., in Lion makes perfect sense in this light. And I'm going to hold out for an optical-drive free next gen lighter and/or more capable MBP on the next rev (but will cave and buy if they extend the current shell).
As a side note, this seems to effect 3rd parties as well. Firefox 4 is available on XP (I think) but not on Tiger or any PPC Mac.
So, you advocate the Somali Pirates taking over boats of rich people to kill them, right?
You believe app piracy is equivalent to armed robbery and murder?
From Steve Jobs:
And this is news to you? (I can't speak to that particular 3G exploit or where it stands now, btw, but....)
Apple devices are built well-enough that their dependence on upgrades by the base requires creating support and update obsolescence as well as adding one or two more shiny new things (HW and/or SW) to the follow-ons that create upgrade lust.
Doesn't bother some of us, tho'. My 2005 Tiger iBook is still my accounting and home podcast player even though the battery's completely shot and the six key can only be accessed on the virtual mini-KB. And will be until it no longer runs.
On the positive side, it also frees their offerings from becoming as clogged with legacy support code as MS's. Dropping Rosetta, e.g., in Lion makes perfect sense in this light. And I'm going to hold out for an optical-drive free next gen lighter and/or more capable MBP on the next rev (but will cave and buy if they extend the current shell).
As a side note, this seems to effect 3rd parties as well. Firefox 4 is available on XP but not on Tiger or any PPC Mac.
It's not really eye opening given Apples track record but if the jailbreakers can fix it, why can't Apple? There is no legacy support code to speak of, the jailbreakme.com exploiter even showed exactly what the exploit was doing and how to fix it. Apple should have released a fix. I don't understand the mentality that a phone that's roughly three years old should be completely abandoned. What is it in the Apple lovers mentality that says two-three year old hardware is obsolete and dropping support is inevitable and should be encouraged? That's stupidity.
No, random people on discussion boards don't count as either reasonable or authoritative.
Well then your opinion on the merits of what jailbreaking usefullness is, it's worth to iOS users, and what is accomplishes are worthless. Especially since you have no practical experience other than 'seeing one.'
So your sense of outrage about Apple dropping support for older phones has no basis in history.
As is the case with everything in electronics. Hardware and software move on. At some point you have to drop support of old outdated hardware. The system inside of the iPhone 4 is radically different from what was used in the previous iPhones. For iOS to take full advantage of the newer capabilities they have to drop old hardware.
It's not really eye opening given Apples track record but if the jailbreakers can fix it, why can't Apple? There is no legacy support code to speak of, the jailbreakme.com exploiter even showed exactly what the exploit was doing and how to fix it. Apple should have released a fix. I don't understand the mentality that a phone that's roughly three years old should be completely abandoned. What is it in the Apple lovers mentality that says two-three year old hardware is obsolete and dropping support is inevitable and should be encouraged? That's stupidity.
My over all point in this discussion is that the jailbreaking community is not an R&D department. Apple should not treat them as an R&D department.
The jailbreakers do some interesting things but they are not building anything. Their work is not creating a cohesive and congruent platform.
Well then your opinion on the merits of what jailbreaking usefullness is, it's worth to iOS users, and what is accomplishes are worthless. Especially since you have no practical experience other than 'seeing one.'
I don't know how old you are. But OS upgrades for phones is a relatively new practice. Prior to the iPhone it was not typical to upgrade the software on any phone. For the most part if you wanted the newer OS you had to buy a newer phone.
So your sense of outrage about Apple dropping support for older phones has no basis in history.
As is the case with everything in electronics. Hardware and software move on. At some point you have to drop support of old outdated hardware. The system inside of the iPhone 4 is radically different from what was used in the previous iPhones. For iOS to take full advantage of the newer capabilities they have to drop old hardware.
My sense of outrage is baseless? No extra ringtones for the 3GS because of what reason again? No MMS for the original iPhone despite is having the exact same hardware as the 3G for what reason again? Not fixing an exploit on a phone that had stopped being sold by Apple only 68 days previous to it being released? There's a history lesson for you.
WTF are you talking about dropping older hardware support for? It has nothing to do with new features. Not fixing a very real threat to 3G owners by way of a PDF exploit is acceptable? The iPhone 3G was sold online by Apple until May 25, 2010. It was only 68 days from no longer being sold when the exploit was public. If Apple can sell a phone that old, they should support it. It wasn't even 24 months old when they stopped selling it. I don't care to know how old you are, but not everyone can buy a new phone every two years or wants to. By not fixing that exploit the gave a huge 'eff you' to people who bought that phone up to 18 months earlier, and I think they should support a phone they just stopped selling. I don't mean getting support for all the new whiz bang features, but if they know about a huge security hole they should have fixed it.
You keep babbling about taking advantage of new hardware and capabilities, blah blah blah. They don't have to release a firmware with extra features to fix that hole, just a point release with the fix incorporated and BAM! Problem fixed without any trouble. Do you even think before you write? There was no feature release in a new firmware that fixed that exploit and no reason it couldn't have been fixed on an 18 month old phone.