Evidence points toward Apple releasing HDTV this year - report

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  • Reply 101 of 197
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Lorre View Post


    I don't buy it, and I never will. Even if Apple does release a TV, I would consider it a really stupid move.



    Face it, a TV is nowadays nothing more than a dumb screen. It's the things you connect to your TV that make it an awesome device. Your cable settop box, your BluRay player, your XBox 360. That's what makes people like sitting in front of the TV. The TV itself is a dumb commodity product.



    So in stead of making a TV, I think Apple should make a device that connects to your TV. Something that allows you to watch all your cool iTunes content on that big screen in your living room. It would be cool if this little box would also allow AirPlay streaming and.. oh wait... I guess they already sell one of these little boxes.



    So yeah, all Apple needs to do is make the Apple TV as attractive as possible by adding cool new revolutionary features to it. It's only 99 bucks and people can connect it either a $250 WallMart piece of junk, or a $4000 high end Sony TV.



    There is absolutely ZERO reason why Apple would actually make a TV set. I challenge you to give me one.



    I agree with this sentiment. As a single person living in a small apartment I have a 23" mat screen computer monitor. That is plenty big for me sitting just four feet away from the screen. I haven't turned on my TV in over a year. The only thing I might want to change is having a monitor with a faster refresh rate. I use Netflix and Fancast to watch TV shows and movies. Sometimes I'll go directly to a TV network site and watch shows (except CBS because they don't do streaming well).



    I don't know how many people out there are similar to me. Broadcast TV isn't interesting to me. I don't watch TV news. I get it from the internet and very brief radio news in the first four minutes of each hour.



    What could Apple do with a larger screen product that they can't already do with an Apple TV? It would make better sense that Apple make the Apple TV product do more things with the screen of choice already in the consumers home. Apple computers come with loads of drivers for numerous hardware devices. They could do the same with different TV products within Apple TV. That way the experience would be perfect no matter which brand or size screen was used.



    Think about this; what is the average lifespan of a computer and what is the average lifespan of a TV? TVs last a long time. Plasma screens are supposed to last at least twelve years and LCDs should last about seventeen years before failure. I read that statistic a few years ago in a Consumer Reports magazine comparing TVs. Apple makes its money on other devices that don't last that long, or at least most of them get upgraded before that long length of time. Why should Apple start into a business where the products have such a long lifespan? That would mean much less profit over the long run.
  • Reply 102 of 197
    xsuxsu Posts: 401member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AppleStud View Post


    Find me an HDTV from any manufacturer, and Apple could sell the same size TV for at least $100-200 more. It's called brand loyalty, and providing value for the money spent (better UI, more content, better integration with iDevices, better aesthetic design, etc). Of course, the haters and nay-sayers will merely point at the screen size and compare it to Vizio, thereby calling the Apple product needlessly overpriced. So be it.



    Just for the sake of argument, say Apple can get $150 more per TV for the same spec. On a $1500-$2000 set, that's 10% more than the generic makers. Not too shabby, however, my original question stands,

    What's the total profit margin?



    Compared that to the profit margin of other Apple products, then tell me if it's a worthwhile market for Apple to get into.
  • Reply 103 of 197
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by xsu View Post


    Just for the sake of argument, say Apple can get $150 more per TV for the same spec. On a $1500-$2000 set, that's 10% more than the generic makers. Not too shabby, however, my original question stands,

    What's the total profit margin?



    Compared that to the profit margin of other Apple products, then tell me if it's a worthwhile market for Apple to get into.



    Apple's profit margin, across all of its product lines, is currently 20%.



    Given your numbers above (and assuming a competitor baseline of 10%), something like 20% is what it will be.
  • Reply 104 of 197
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by zoetmb View Post


    No, it makes no sense. ....



    High-end TVs, while critically acclaimed by their niche users, don't sell well. Just ask Pioneer about their Kuro line, ......



    It's not just the hardware. It's the software, and now, perhaps more importantly, the ecosystem.
  • Reply 105 of 197
    xsuxsu Posts: 401member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post


    Apple's profit margin, across all of its product lines, is currently 20%.



    Given your numbers above (and assuming a competitor baseline of 10%), something like 20% is what it will be.



    " Sony Corp. (6758.TO) said Thursday its net profit in the October to December period fell 8.6% from a year earlier, weighed by the strong yen and thin margins in its television business.

    "

    Now, do you want to revise your assumption on competitor's baseline of 10% profit margin?



    P.S. As a group, Sony's Revenue slipped 1.4% from a year earlier to Y2.206 trillion, while operating profit dropped 5.9% to Y137.5 billion. So that's about 6%. If TV business was making 10%, you think Sony would single it out as "thin margins"?



    PS2: Your number on Apple's profit margin is also wrong. Their gross margin is 40%, operating margin is around 28%. Their iPhone is generating 60% gross margin, while iPad generates nearly 40%. The perspective changes dramatically when you have the right numbers, doesn't it.
  • Reply 106 of 197
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Lorre View Post


    I don't buy it, and I never will. Even if Apple does release a TV, I would consider it a really stupid move.



    Face it, a TV is nowadays nothing more than a dumb screen. It's the things you connect to your TV that make it an awesome device. Your cable settop box, your BluRay player, your XBox 360. That's what makes people like sitting in front of the TV. The TV itself is a dumb commodity product.



    So in stead of making a TV, I think Apple should make a device that connects to your TV. Something that allows you to watch all your cool iTunes content on that big screen in your living room. It would be cool if this little box would also allow AirPlay streaming and.. oh wait... I guess they already sell one of these little boxes.



    So yeah, all Apple needs to do is make the Apple TV as attractive as possible by adding cool new revolutionary features to it. It's only 99 bucks and people can connect it either a $250 WallMart piece of junk, or a $4000 high end Sony TV.



    There is absolutely ZERO reason why Apple would actually make a TV set. I challenge you to give me one.



    Because people are sick and tired of their TV area looking like an electronic mess -- as you so very well describe. Not to mention all the media incompatibilities you also do such a good job of describing.



    The day we plugged a mini into our tv was the day we threw all that junk in the garbage.
  • Reply 107 of 197
    Home Cinema Display
    • Apple should not do this - leave it to the guys that are already doing it.

    • TV manufacturers need to keep working on the weight, energy consumption, viewing angles, brightness, contrast etc.

    • Various sizes of course

    • Build it for long life and durability - 7+ years

    • They should also strip out everything except the hardware that supports the display - power supply and something to bring in the signal (x1 HDMI or ThunderBolt - or whatever that newfangled port is). Not even a tuner.

    AV Amp
    • Someone could take a look at this - maybe Apple, but probably not

    • This box might have a more frequent update cycle than the TV - but still in the range of 5+ years

    • Strip out all the legacy ports and connectors and only support HDMI sources

    • Make it small - unlike the enormous and hot Onkyo AV amp I have right now

    • Has all the right surround sound circuitry and speaker connectors you might need

    • Try to figure a way to reduce the rat's nest of cables

    • Ideally there should only be one cable going up to the display - if it can carry the signal and sufficient power together then wonderful!

    Sources
    • Cable | Satellite | Terrestrial Digital/PVR - I guess this is where all the current competition is. Probably have rapid turnover and evolution of these components - 2-3 year life cycle

    • Media Player - these might end-of-life soon? I very rarely use mine.

    • Gaming devices

    • Apple TV

    Opportunities for Apple as already mentioned by others
    • The controller - iPhone/iPad coming along nicely

    • The interface - as above?

    • Building a conduit through which I can access content so that eventually none of the boxes except the Apple TV are connected to the AV Amp

    Challenges
    • Creating deals with the content providers to allow on-demand distribution - this is why aTV is currently only a hobby

    • Pulling this all together in a very heterogenous global market place

    • Enough affordable bandwidth to enough homes

  • Reply 108 of 197
    mauijoemauijoe Posts: 77member
    I think the real elephant in the room is the way you chose your input source through your home theater or home stereo system ( cable box, blue ray, atv, game box, iPod, etc.). I would get in line for an iOS device handled this as well as hijack the control of the source in use. The hard part would be what to do about the audio amplifier, built in leaves the question of how good to make it ( high power free of distortion) as well as heat and size. A separate amp is the way to go but a very hard sell to anyone but wealthy audiophiles. Anyway I want an iOS home theater system.
  • Reply 109 of 197
    sockrolidsockrolid Posts: 2,789member
    There are a few internet-connected TVs that run apps already. Apple can wait for that market to start heating up, and for the Sonys and Samsungs (and of course the Googles) of the world to make crucial mistakes. They will be playing poker with their cards face-up for Apple to see.



    It'll be just like the MP3 player market was in 2001. One or two moderately successful competitors, plenty of low-quality products, and no truly easy-to-use hardware and software combo. You had to mount the players as hard drives and drag and drop files into folders. Or you had to use primitive music player software to do the copying for you.



    All crushed by iTunes + iPod, and Apple is surely planning to crush the connected TV / app TV space as well. The connected TV market is going to be huge. And those TVs can and will run apps. Apple TV's circuit board is small enough to be embedded in even the thinnest TVs. You do the math.



    So will Apple TV be able to run apps? Yup. It has always been able to run apps. The whole Apple TV experience is an app running on iOS. The devil is in the details, of course. HDTV currently has a pixel geometry of 1920x1080. This is a trivial 2x pixel-double from iPhone's 960x640. But if you also double the vertical resolution you end up with 1920x1280. An extra 200 pixels to either cut off the top and/or bottom of the app on HDTV.



    Apple could force developers to handle a 3rd screen geometry (16:9 1920x1080) in addition to the iPad's 4:3 1024x768 and iPhone / iPod touch 3:2 960x640. Or, and this is a little crazy speculation here, Apple could build their own TV sets with 1920x1280 screens. With an extra 200 pixels along the bottom for whatever they want to use it for. An iOS-like Tab Bar maybe? An area for text messages and/or banner scrolls? Who knows?



    A custom 1920x1280 TV screen would allow current iOS 4.x apps to run unmodified on Apple's HDTV screens with 2x horizontal and vertical line doubling. Exactly the way iOS 3.x apps originally ran on iPhone 4. Eventually, as high-resolution LCD (and AMOLED) screen costs come down, iPad and iPhone could get 1920x1440 (4:3) and 1920x1280 (3:2) screens. No pixel doubling needed, and there would be only two geometries to support. Just like there are today.



    Should be interesting. But I doubt Apple wants to get into the internet + app TV market this year. Better to wait for others to make their fatal mistakes first, then swoop in with iTunes + App Store for built-in Apple TV. Ultimately, Apple could license Apple TV to the other manufacturers. Apple will get paid while letting the others fight over ever-shrinking hardware margins.
  • Reply 110 of 197
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


    It isn't that simple, people don't go for the biggest and cheapest unless they are complete idiots. Further very simple features like FaceTime would be extremely attractive. An Apple TV doesn't have to be expensive either, rather it has to have the right feature set.



    Facetime and video conferencing has always been mostly a gimick for a very long time. I could go home and get FaceTime for my iMac at which point I'd still have no one to use it with as no one I know has an iOS device or a Mac outside of a few coworkers. Unless the FaceTime protocol gets picked up by a lot more manufacturers it will remain a gimick. At a press conference it has a wow factor but that's about it.



    Quote:

    People seem to think that the functionality Apple needs to add costs slot. Yet AppleTV2 costs like $100 bucks or so. That cost though is offset by the reality that all TVs these days have some sort of computational capability. The point is Apple can add an awful lot of additional capability for a hundred bucks. So think about what it would be like if Apple integrated FaceTime, iOS device support, gaming, e-mail (yes e-mail or maybe advanced messaging) and other functions into a TV that costs a few bucks more than a run of the mill machine.



    FaceTime? Apple could activate the USB port on AppleTV's and sell a camera right now. iOS device support? For what? To act as a remote? Really expensive remote. Gaming? I'm guessing an iOS device as the controller, adding hundreds of dollars to the real cost (and that's just for one player). E-mail? How are you going to compose an email? Via an iOS device that again adds hundreds of dollars to the real cost of the TV.



    Every feature you listed beyond FaceTime requires the addition of multi hundred dollar iOS device, not just the $100 you stated.



    And really, after watching the AppleTV stagnate for years, would you really have much faith that Apple would put much effort into a TV especially if sales were poor?
  • Reply 111 of 197
    lantznlantzn Posts: 240member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by zindako View Post


    Has to be the worst article in a while, Apple will never make a television set.





    Jobs loves Sony. I LOVE my Apple TV v2 and Sony Bravia HDTV combo! Coincedence? I think not.
  • Reply 112 of 197
    lantznlantzn Posts: 240member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ireland View Post


    Their TV won't have a camera.



    It'll have 2.
  • Reply 113 of 197
    I think they have to do it. We know googles plans for tv and know Microsoft is building windows embedded for tv. So ultimately iOS needs needs to be in a tv. They have to do it themselves as that's apples claim for quality.



    The only problem is if it will just be a repeat of the Apple hifi.
  • Reply 114 of 197
    jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,953member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by NeilM View Post


    Who says the $100B TV market is "lucrative"? Let's see the evidence.



    There are scores of TV manufacturers and prices have been on a constant decline for years as the products become more and more commoditized. Established players like Sony have been severely bruised in the process. Unless Apple can bring something sufficiently fresh to the party, as they did with the iPhone in 2007, I don't why they'd want to wrestle in the particular mud pit.



    That's the key thing, Apple needs to have something compelling. If they think they have a compelling idea that can get the buyers, then they'll do it. That's the tough part.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ireland View Post


    Jobs has a plasma.



    How do you know that?



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by OlivierL View Post


    Apple is ALREADY making TV Sets : this is called a HDMI TV + Apple TV.



    To call that an Apple made TV set is disingenuous.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bongo View Post


    Yeah, imagine watching 640 x 480 pixels in all it's splendor on a HDTV...



    I don't think Facetime is resolution-fixed.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by xsu View Post


    At what profit margin?



    It really depends on what kind of TV you're talking about. Nice 50" TVs can be had for less than $1000, if Apple makes a compelling 50" for $1500, that might be enough.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by milkmage View Post


    most TV's have glossy screens. I was limited to 2 brands when I was shopping for mine last year.



    I found zero plasma's with a matte screen. only Sony and Samsung make matte (LED/LCD @52";)



    Not all Samsung plasmas are glossy, I have one that has a glass smooth surface with a special surface treatment that cancels most reflections like camera lenses, anti-reflective eyeglasses and I've even seen CRTs with the treatment. Matte is a low-tech anti-glare anyway, it's just a finely roughed-up surface which scatters incident light. The good anti-glare doesn't have a rough surface, nor does it have harsh glare like a normal glass surface, I think this is much better than plain glossy or matte.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by caliminius View Post


    Facetime and video conferencing has always been mostly a gimick for a very long time.



    FaceTime hasn't even been around for a year. Video conferencing before that has been relatively clumsy. I had to futz with my grandma's computer to get Skype video chat to work, I don't know if anyoneone else in my family would have been able to figure that out.



    Quote:

    And really, after watching the AppleTV stagnate for years, would you really have much faith that Apple would put much effort into a TV especially if sales were poor?



    AppleTV sales have picked up since the last update.
  • Reply 115 of 197
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by zindako View Post


    Has to be the worst article in a while, Apple will never make a television set.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hiker275 View Post




    Maybe you're being sarcastic and I just don't get it but... I ask why not? They've done it before... the Macintosh TV back in 1995.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    That isn?t the best argument to make.



    We can speculate 24/7 as to what Apple may or may not do in the next few months... but to say Apple will "NEVER" make a TV is really out there. Never is a very long time. Given that Apple has in fact produced a TV set integrated with the Mac, short lived as it was basically nulls that argument. Okay, I guess there is a technical difference between "will" (future) and "would" (past, present & future).



    But the company as a whole has moved from being computer centric to consumer electronics centric and for 4 years has been making the Apple TV. The user interface with a TV/Cable box/VCR/DVR/Game controller.... is just crap. The user interface is what Apple has always done well and it's a compelling reason for why they MIGHT make a TV.



    So. Is Apple releasing a TV set this June. Probably not. This October? I wouldn't bet too much on it, but then again, penny ante poker gives me indigestion. 4 years form now? Sure, why the heck not? It is a hobby after all and things change. Heck, nobody at Apple even knows that answer, even if it is in fact a goal right now.



    As for the old Mac TV, I almost bought one at Sears, but I had recently upgraded to a Centris and just couldn't justify the money. But, Solipsism, I checked out the link you provided. Interesting opening line: "The Macintosh TV was Apple's first attempt at computer-television integration." First attempt??? Hmmmm.
  • Reply 116 of 197
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


    FaceTime hasn't even been around for a year. Video conferencing before that has been relatively clumsy. I had to futz with my grandma's computer to get Skype video chat to work, I don't know if anyoneone else in my family would have been able to figure that out.



    The point is video conferencing is a niche product. It has a lot more wow factor then practical use. How many times have you been on a call and really felt the need to see the person on the other end? And again, until FaceTime makes it out of only Apple products, the actual usability of it is really low. Maybe your entire family and circle of friends is entirely Apple/iOS, but outside of coworkers the only person I know with my sister and she has a first gen iPad so no FaceTime for her.



    Quote:

    AppleTV sales have picked up since the last update.



    That's feint praise considering how Apple was never willing to release sales numbers for the AppleTV 1. Even the announced 1 million for the second gen version is a fairly low number.
  • Reply 117 of 197
    nhtnht Posts: 4,522member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post


    I am in the camp that Ireland will be proved right on this.



    Can't.



    First, his prediction was something silly like a HDTV in a year or two and that was a two or three years ago. This was back when we had insanity before major events and prediction threads.



    Second, any prediction that Apple will develop a HDTV offering will be like stating that Apple will develop a smartphone offering and postulating a Blackberry like device. If they DO make a TV at some point it'll be equally NOT what folks are imagining as an Apple branded HDTV with an embedded aTV inside.
  • Reply 118 of 197
    If it doesn't bring back smell-a-vision then I'm not interested.
  • Reply 119 of 197
    desarcdesarc Posts: 642member
    i love AppleInsider's articles that bring insider information about new products and services from Apple. there are a lot of great articles here, but anything from an analyst?



    "Evidence points toward Apple releasing HDTV this year" ???



    what evidence? did Glenn Beck help assemble this evidence, and if so, does it undeniably link Apple to Bin-Laden? is Gene Munster's track record any better than Glenn Beck's? Munster should be wearing a tinfoil hat to keep any more of this "evidence" from seeping into his brain.



    the profit margins in TV sales are razor thin, even compared to computers. as others have said in the comments above, apple makes the apple TV. connect it to any "stupid" television. I'd "analyze" * that Apple is negotiating with TV Manufacturers to include apple TV hardware built into the logic boards of their future models, so apple can rent content the same way netflix is available on blu-ray players. [yes, i bought a 1080p output device to watch streamed 480p content, but it was before the ATV2 came out]



    * by "analyze" i mean "guess".
  • Reply 120 of 197
    nhtnht Posts: 4,522member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AppleStud View Post


    Find me an HDTV from any manufacturer, and Apple could sell the same size TV for at least $100-200 more. It's called brand loyalty, and providing value for the money spent (better UI, more content, better integration with iDevices, better aesthetic design, etc). Of course, the haters and nay-sayers will merely point at the screen size and compare it to Vizio, thereby calling the Apple product needlessly overpriced. So be it.



    If they only made an add on for HDTVs that was $100-$200 so I could use it on my existing set...oh wait...they do...with a better UI, more content, better integration with iDevices, etc.



    Folks have mentioned aTV like a dozen times in this thread and no one yet has pointed to anything (beyond camera placement for facetime) as ANY sort of reason to make a "smart hdtv" vs a aTV/HDTV combo. There are all sorts of downsides and currently no upsides.
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