On the other hand Google and Twitter were instrumental in overthrowing the Egyptian government, so their power is very real...
Good choice of word: "instrumental." Their "instruments" were employed in the event. But some might read it as responsible or active in some manipulative way. Google and Twitter were no more instrumental in a conscious way than Springfield and Remington were in the Civil War. Their tools were used, but they were not a causative factor.
So when these fools that are suing for a refund claim that they never knew their information was being gathered, did they just click through the EULA without reading it? Because they gave specific permission for this information to be gathered. If they didn't bother to read it, who's fault is that?
Guess I could sue the credit card company that reports my activity to Equifax et. al. What good is an agreement in this pansy society we have? (rhetorical question)
5) Until I read some official stance that Apple is data mining and logging my position for some nefarious purpose and that consolidated.db has absolutely no benefit for quickly establishing a link I just can?t get worked up over this non-issue.
Btw, it's pretty laughable that you keep bringing up this 'nefarious purpose' nonsense in a lot of your posts. People wanting something as basic as privacy, and expecting that corporations -- up to a reasonable point -- can respect that, is not synonymous with 'Apple is nefarious.'
And, for a guy who says he 'can't get worked up, over this non-issue' you sure do waste a lot of time posting on this non-issue! (Do a count).
Part of the hysteria was someone being able to find your device and hacking into it to find your general locations. I think that is silly when you have so much more info on your device that is important.
As I stated, I don’t think that has to do with backups, but with syncing your Mac OS and Windows calander, address book, mail books and notes from your system TO your iDevice.
1) I have no problem with Apple being held accountable for their actions and have stated I would like an answer and resolution to their not clearing the cache. What I have a problem with is what I stated above about getting upset about the DB being on your iDevice and in your backups when it’s so trifling compared to actual specific data users keep on their iDevices and in their user accounts.
2) Last I read this data was not being sent to Apple, only kept in consolidated.db on your iDevice and in your iTunes backup which is how the iPhone Tracker app works and why this became an issue; not because this info was being sent to Apple. You quoted the info about it being sent to Apple as if it’s new info, not the same issue that has been discussed since last week
3) From the iPhone Tracker app site:
Why is Apple collecting this information?
It’s unclear. One guess might be that they have new features in mind that require a history of your location, but that’s pure speculation. The fact that it's transferred across devices when you restore or migrate is evidence the data-gathering isn't accidental.
4) If Apple is collecting this 2x a day then what sense does it make to keep the data cached on the device or include it in a backup if it’s simply for data mining. They seem to cancel each other out.
5) Until I read some official stance that Apple is data mining and logging my position for some nefarious purpose and that consolidated.db has absolutely no benefit for quickly establishing a link I just can’t get worked up over this non-issue.
How about reading the NY Times article on the subject and the submission Apple made well over a year ago on the same subject that none of the Senators have read? AL is making a fool out of himself. He used to do that for a living. So I guess its par for the course.
good choice of word: "instrumental." their "instruments" were employed in the event. But some might read it as responsible or active in some manipulative way. Google and twitter were no more instrumental in a conscious way than springfield and remington were in the civil war. Their tools were used, but they were not a causative factor.
The information in the DB doesn't leave the device other than when it is backed up to a computer. So apple is not collecting it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdonisSMU
How about reading the NY Times article on the subject and the submission Apple made well over a year ago on the same subject that none of the Senators have read? AL is making a fool out of himself but he used to do that for a living. So I guess its par for the course.
From what's been presented by the media, I can understand the hullaballoo, but frankly the in-depth and expert analysis performed on the data by highly qualified, highly educated and very smart people in the geospatial industry (please see the three blog posts by Peter Batty here: http://bit.ly/i7elry) cast serious doubts about whether the information found in the file even originates on the iPhone.
The evidence and analysis I've seen points very strongly to this information coming TO the device, not FROM it (though if it comes from a device it's quite possibly aggregated with similar data from other devices) and so while it can tell you the last time you were in a general area, it does nothing to locate you or your habits with any degree of accuracy.
In fact, I have yet to see a credible analysis of the data that *does* point to it being accurate or even a history of your location. At the very best it might be an approximation of the last time you were in a given arbitrary area, with no indication of accuracy, duration, or your movement within that area.
The data should be encrypted, yes, but as has been pointed out, if you've hacked into my computer you can get at my address book, browsing history, and personal documents, all of which will divulge much more information than the contents of this file.
Given all that, I'm disappointed both in the ridiculous lawsuit and the somewhat hysterical Senate Hearing summons.
So Apple changed their privacy policy last June. This is all well known from almost a year ago and right there in the privacy policy.
To provide location-based services on Apple products, Apple and our partners and licensees may collect, use, and share precise location data, including the real-time geographic location of your Apple computer or device. This location data is collected anonymously in a form that does not personally identify you and is used by Apple and our partners and licensees to provide and improve location-based products and services.
Then some senators asked Apple to explain their privacy policy changes. Apple explained it.
Apple put the privacy policy change on the iTunes Store so that as many customers would see it as possible, the company said in the letter. Customers who did not want their phone to share their location can opt out by turning off location-based services on any iOS device's settings menu. Or they can say they do not agree to the new privacy policy. In that case, customers will not be able to set up an iTunes Store account, but can still activate and access any Apple device, the letter said.
Bruce Sewell, replied to Markey on this issue.
"When a customer's device sends Wi-Fi, cell tower, GPS, or diagnostic location information to Apple, it does not include any information identifying the particular device or user," Sewell wrote. It was also noted it only records a user's latitude and longitude anonymously and then immediately converted to a five-digit ZIP code. The lat/long info is not kept and the ZIP code is not matched with a particular device or user, according to Apple. Advertisers never see the ZIP code info.
So we have Apple telling the consumer they are doing it with two options of opting out, along with a letter to a senator detailing what they are recording and why.
The only stance you could possibly have that would make you upset is if you think Apple is lying, but you’ve presented no evidence to that fact.
This is not the same issue that was brought up by the App Tracker folks. This is an older, separate issue.
Again, why is this cache retained in consolidated.db for so long if Apple already has the info? The only reason that makes sense to me is if it’s a bug/oversight that isn’t clearing the cache properly the way Snow Leopard doesn’t cull temp PLISTs the way it should.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram
And, for a guy who says he 'can't get worked up, over this non-issue' you sure do waste a lot of time posting on this non-issue! (Do a count).
Don't people realize all the log files that there are on their computers (desktops, laptops, e-readers) from every OS and program, especially ones that access the web.
Put you computer in the hands of a good computer geek and they can tell you every single thing you did on your computer and where you were when you did it and for how long, even if you empty you cache, clear your history, delete the program or pictures or videos. The only really good way to be sure is if you wipe and reformat the hardware, and then we just go to the proxy, router, server cache and we can get alot of data there.
Heck, every net (& mobile) enabled device has a unique id that is catalogued for every interaction it makes. How do you think we put a missile in the lap of a target that is using a phone that has gone though seven sim chips as it moves across Asia? Or rebuild the path taken by a kid who is missing? Or have enough of the current favorite cookie in Safeway.
There are tons of these log files all over the automation world, your credit card, debit card, non-smart phone, pager, usb drive, your web-based email, the blog you visit, the porn you consume, your grocery club card. It is almost a default for geeks so that your stuff can be fixed when you break it and for companies to provide the service or stock the products you want.
And this is nothing to do with Orwellian futures - no company or government (Modern US/European), does this against the majority of their clients/customers/citizens implied or expressed long term wants.
What we don't want is to be told about it. That shatters the illusion of privacy we cherish so highly.
This whole issue is ignorance fueled by some real brand new idiots who have crashed into reality and are scared of sunlight.
Don't people realize all the log files that there are on their computers (desktops, laptops, e-readers) from every OS and program, especially ones that access the web.
[…]
This whole issue is ignorance fueled by some real brand new idiots who have crashed into reality and are scared of sunlight.
This whole things sounds like the irrational fear people have with flying over driving simply because they feel they have less control even though it’s safer. Anonymous lat/long data converted to a zip code is about as innocuous as you can get, and compared to the web browsing, contacts, calendar, phone records, passwords, and all that actual location data stored by apps like TomTom, Twitter, Google, and FourSquare.
This whole things sounds like the irrational fear people have with flying over driving simply because they feel they have less control even though anonymous lat/long data converted to a zip code is innocuous compared to the web browsing, contacts, calendar, phone records, passwords, and all that actual location data stored by apps like TomTom, Twitter, Google, and FourSquare.
Good choice of word: "instrumental." Their "instruments" were employed in the event. But some might read it as responsible or active in some manipulative way. Google and Twitter were no more instrumental in a conscious way than Springfield and Remington were in the Civil War. Their tools were used, but they were not a causative factor.
Google and Twitter were instrumental in the convincing the media consuming masses that the Egyptian overthrow was an action by the majority of the citizenry, instead of it being seen as a middle and higher class internal conflict. The poor in Egypt weren't involved, and they are the majority.
The reality is that businesses have been collecting information about you for years. Web bugs are rife in every web page you surf. The advent of GPS and cell location services offer a new way to gather valued added information.
Apple always asks if you are willing to let an app use location services. They also probably want to know location density and signal quality.
The interesting thing will be when someone gets convicted for being at a crime scene when a crime was being committed. Of course it could also be used to provide an alibi.
For the past couple of months I've been using Ghostery to block web-bugs.
Hopefully we will have more visibility on location tracking in the future.
Comments
The information in the DB doesn't leave the device other than when it is backed up to a computer. So apple is not collecting it.
On the other hand Google and Twitter were instrumental in overthrowing the Egyptian government, so their power is very real...
Good choice of word: "instrumental." Their "instruments" were employed in the event. But some might read it as responsible or active in some manipulative way. Google and Twitter were no more instrumental in a conscious way than Springfield and Remington were in the Civil War. Their tools were used, but they were not a causative factor.
Guess I could sue the credit card company that reports my activity to Equifax et. al. What good is an agreement in this pansy society we have? (rhetorical question)
5) Until I read some official stance that Apple is data mining and logging my position for some nefarious purpose and that consolidated.db has absolutely no benefit for quickly establishing a link I just can?t get worked up over this non-issue.
Btw, it's pretty laughable that you keep bringing up this 'nefarious purpose' nonsense in a lot of your posts. People wanting something as basic as privacy, and expecting that corporations -- up to a reasonable point -- can respect that, is not synonymous with 'Apple is nefarious.'
And, for a guy who says he 'can't get worked up, over this non-issue' you sure do waste a lot of time posting on this non-issue! (Do a count).
Part of the hysteria was someone being able to find your device and hacking into it to find your general locations. I think that is silly when you have so much more info on your device that is important.
As I stated, I don’t think that has to do with backups, but with syncing your Mac OS and Windows calander, address book, mail books and notes from your system TO your iDevice.
1) I have no problem with Apple being held accountable for their actions and have stated I would like an answer and resolution to their not clearing the cache. What I have a problem with is what I stated above about getting upset about the DB being on your iDevice and in your backups when it’s so trifling compared to actual specific data users keep on their iDevices and in their user accounts.
2) Last I read this data was not being sent to Apple, only kept in consolidated.db on your iDevice and in your iTunes backup which is how the iPhone Tracker app works and why this became an issue; not because this info was being sent to Apple. You quoted the info about it being sent to Apple as if it’s new info, not the same issue that has been discussed since last week
3) From the iPhone Tracker app site:4) If Apple is collecting this 2x a day then what sense does it make to keep the data cached on the device or include it in a backup if it’s simply for data mining. They seem to cancel each other out.
5) Until I read some official stance that Apple is data mining and logging my position for some nefarious purpose and that consolidated.db has absolutely no benefit for quickly establishing a link I just can’t get worked up over this non-issue.
How about reading the NY Times article on the subject and the submission Apple made well over a year ago on the same subject that none of the Senators have read? AL is making a fool out of himself. He used to do that for a living. So I guess its par for the course.
good choice of word: "instrumental." their "instruments" were employed in the event. But some might read it as responsible or active in some manipulative way. Google and twitter were no more instrumental in a conscious way than springfield and remington were in the civil war. Their tools were used, but they were not a causative factor.
+1. ..
The information in the DB doesn't leave the device other than when it is backed up to a computer. So apple is not collecting it.
How about reading the NY Times article on the subject and the submission Apple made well over a year ago on the same subject that none of the Senators have read? AL is making a fool out of himself but he used to do that for a living. So I guess its par for the course.
Check out the first link in post #25 above.
The evidence and analysis I've seen points very strongly to this information coming TO the device, not FROM it (though if it comes from a device it's quite possibly aggregated with similar data from other devices) and so while it can tell you the last time you were in a general area, it does nothing to locate you or your habits with any degree of accuracy.
In fact, I have yet to see a credible analysis of the data that *does* point to it being accurate or even a history of your location. At the very best it might be an approximation of the last time you were in a given arbitrary area, with no indication of accuracy, duration, or your movement within that area.
The data should be encrypted, yes, but as has been pointed out, if you've hacked into my computer you can get at my address book, browsing history, and personal documents, all of which will divulge much more information than the contents of this file.
Given all that, I'm disappointed both in the ridiculous lawsuit and the somewhat hysterical Senate Hearing summons.
You obviously missed this story:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...723453610.html
And this:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...ch_LEFTTopNews
Both very impressive pieces of reporting.
So Apple changed their privacy policy last June. This is all well known from almost a year ago and right there in the privacy policy.Then some senators asked Apple to explain their privacy policy changes. Apple explained it. Bruce Sewell, replied to Markey on this issue.So we have Apple telling the consumer they are doing it with two options of opting out, along with a letter to a senator detailing what they are recording and why.
The only stance you could possibly have that would make you upset is if you think Apple is lying, but you’ve presented no evidence to that fact.
This is not the same issue that was brought up by the App Tracker folks. This is an older, separate issue.
Again, why is this cache retained in consolidated.db for so long if Apple already has the info? The only reason that makes sense to me is if it’s a bug/oversight that isn’t clearing the cache properly the way Snow Leopard doesn’t cull temp PLISTs the way it should.
And, for a guy who says he 'can't get worked up, over this non-issue' you sure do waste a lot of time posting on this non-issue! (Do a count).
Curiosity isn’t an emotion.
Check out the first link in post #25 above.
Other than the lack of a link in post #25... I'm not sure wtf you are talking about.
It's all in the Terms... read it before you agree to it next time.
Bahhh Bahhh says the sheep.
Put you computer in the hands of a good computer geek and they can tell you every single thing you did on your computer and where you were when you did it and for how long, even if you empty you cache, clear your history, delete the program or pictures or videos. The only really good way to be sure is if you wipe and reformat the hardware, and then we just go to the proxy, router, server cache and we can get alot of data there.
Heck, every net (& mobile) enabled device has a unique id that is catalogued for every interaction it makes. How do you think we put a missile in the lap of a target that is using a phone that has gone though seven sim chips as it moves across Asia? Or rebuild the path taken by a kid who is missing? Or have enough of the current favorite cookie in Safeway.
There are tons of these log files all over the automation world, your credit card, debit card, non-smart phone, pager, usb drive, your web-based email, the blog you visit, the porn you consume, your grocery club card. It is almost a default for geeks so that your stuff can be fixed when you break it and for companies to provide the service or stock the products you want.
And this is nothing to do with Orwellian futures - no company or government (Modern US/European), does this against the majority of their clients/customers/citizens implied or expressed long term wants.
What we don't want is to be told about it. That shatters the illusion of privacy we cherish so highly.
This whole issue is ignorance fueled by some real brand new idiots who have crashed into reality and are scared of sunlight.
Check out the first link in post #25 above.
I read them already. NY Times article was better IMO.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/26/te...html?src=busln
Other than the lack of a link in post #25... I'm not sure wtf you are talking about.
I?m sure he means #21.
Don't people realize all the log files that there are on their computers (desktops, laptops, e-readers) from every OS and program, especially ones that access the web.
[…]
This whole issue is ignorance fueled by some real brand new idiots who have crashed into reality and are scared of sunlight.
This whole things sounds like the irrational fear people have with flying over driving simply because they feel they have less control even though it’s safer. Anonymous lat/long data converted to a zip code is about as innocuous as you can get, and compared to the web browsing, contacts, calendar, phone records, passwords, and all that actual location data stored by apps like TomTom, Twitter, Google, and FourSquare.
This whole things sounds like the irrational fear people have with flying over driving simply because they feel they have less control even though anonymous lat/long data converted to a zip code is innocuous compared to the web browsing, contacts, calendar, phone records, passwords, and all that actual location data stored by apps like TomTom, Twitter, Google, and FourSquare.
Sounds like? It is.
I mean, who gives a shit about the budget, the weakening dollar, the federal deficit- that stuff is booooooooorrrrriiiinnnnggg!!!!!!!!!
Thanks Congress.
Good choice of word: "instrumental." Their "instruments" were employed in the event. But some might read it as responsible or active in some manipulative way. Google and Twitter were no more instrumental in a conscious way than Springfield and Remington were in the Civil War. Their tools were used, but they were not a causative factor.
Google and Twitter were instrumental in the convincing the media consuming masses that the Egyptian overthrow was an action by the majority of the citizenry, instead of it being seen as a middle and higher class internal conflict. The poor in Egypt weren't involved, and they are the majority.
Apple always asks if you are willing to let an app use location services. They also probably want to know location density and signal quality.
The interesting thing will be when someone gets convicted for being at a crime scene when a crime was being committed. Of course it could also be used to provide an alibi.
For the past couple of months I've been using Ghostery to block web-bugs.
Hopefully we will have more visibility on location tracking in the future.