Apple issues statement on iOS location controversy, says fix is coming

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  • Reply 161 of 237
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post


    On serious note, I find it amazing how all of these achievements happened in less than 100 years given that man have been around for tens of thousands of years.



    Our ancestors we lazier than us.
  • Reply 162 of 237
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mstone View Post


    I hardly consider two Garmin owners manuals and Wikipedia as layman definitions. They may be wrong and you may be right but surely you can understand why someone might trust their information before some unknown anonymous Internet dudes when there is a contradiction.



    You seriously don?t consider a consumer product?s user manual as layman oriented?
  • Reply 163 of 237
    Steve Jobs did say that iDevices are magical.
  • Reply 164 of 237
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,501member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


    For those that really and truly want to understand what your GPS device is telling you and how it works, pay a visit to GPSReview.net



    A friendly, active and patient forum with exceptional knowledgeable members and moderators. There's already been too many wrong assumptions posted in this thread to take up more time from the original subject.



    To MStone: Watch more closely the next time your gps boots up. You won't have a lock at three satellites. They lock in so quickly it's sometimes hard to catch. If the sat bar is solid it's locked. If hollow it's only found but not yet usable for navigation purposes.



    To Mel: The article you're relying on is incorrect on several statements. Wander on over to GPSReview,net one day when you have time.



    Why don't you provide us with something better right here, where we're all discussing it?
  • Reply 165 of 237
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,501member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by noirdesir View Post


    Encryption, there is an additional encrypted signal that contains more information which increases accuracy. The military has the key to decrypt it, you don't have it.



    Could you provide a link to that?
  • Reply 166 of 237
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,501member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by muppetry View Post


    The number visible varies. 8 is a targeted minimum in the system design. It does not represent a maximum. 10 is not uncommon, especially airborne or at high points. I've seen 11 on occasion. 12 is theoretically possible. That is one reason why modern receivers are 12 channel or more. I think this discussion is getting lost in the weeds.



    It's not getting lost. It's an interesting discussion. And it's part of what the subject is all about.



    We're mostly concerned with what we receive while on the ground. Obviously, the higher we go, the further away the horizon is.
  • Reply 167 of 237
    mstonemstone Posts: 11,510member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    You seriously don?t consider a consumer product?s user manual as layman oriented?



    Regardless why would they lie in the documentation? Why don't they just say four are required?



    Again from the user manual:



    "The GPS unit needs to acquire good signals from at least three satellites to determine a position on the the surface of the earth. A fourth signal is required to get three-dimentional positioning which determines elevation or altitude."
  • Reply 168 of 237
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 23,935member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mstone View Post


    Fine, I've given you three very credible reference documents that contradict your claim, and you have provided a forum with some nice people. I guess I usually have several satellites so I'm good. Thanks for your comments.



    I'm not scolding you at all. It's a very common error to think three sats would triangulalate your position and this give you an accurate location. Common-sense really. But that's not how GPS works.



    In the most simple of terms, it's just timing. Very, very precise timing. Milliseconds. You have most of the picture correct.



    Three satellites have placed you in a fairly specific spot on a two dimensional plane. But GPS timing signals can't work in two dimensions. Why? Because your navigation device is using the time it takes to receive the GPS signals as a reference to determine where you are in relation to the known position of the satellites. Without that 3rd dimension how would your device determine how far you are from the signal source? You're dealing with a spherical object rather than a flat piece of paper. Without that 4th point, there's no way to compute the distance, and thus time difference, between the source and your device. Elevation is not just a nice thing to know. It's a required element in the mathematical equation.



    MStone: Garmin isn't lying. They've told you that the forth satellite locked will provide elevation. I just expalined why that's needed. Garmin could have been more clear that they mention the 4th sat because it's a required piece of the puzzle. But the manual never says that only three sats are needed for positioning. It could have been stated more clearly.
  • Reply 169 of 237
    magicjmagicj Posts: 406member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    I?m gonna say you?ve been using it the whole time.



    Nah. I switched over to my iPad.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    IBut if you really turned it off I say leave it off and wipe the NAND until they issue a fix. In the mean time you should totally wrap it tinfoil, but in a lead-lined box and bury in the backyard..



    I'm not, and never was, worried about Apple tracking my location. I lead a dull, uninteresting life and I'd feel sorry for anyone who'd be assigned to track my activities in tedious detail.



    But I do care a great deal about privacy issues and I'm not going to develop for a company that doesn't share those concerns. That's one of the reasons I don't develop Android apps.



    But with this letter, Apple has said they're going to make all the changes I suggested they make, so I'm very happy about that.
  • Reply 170 of 237
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mstone View Post


    Regardless why would they lie in the documentation? Why don't they just say four are required?



    Again from the user manual:



    "The GPS unit needs to acquire good signals from at least three satellites to determine a position on the the surface of the earth. A fourth signal is required to get three-dimentional positioning which determines elevation or altitude."



    I?m not sure what part of that is hard to understand. I copy and pasted a good ovutline or what 1, 2, 3 and 4 satellites can do for your location. I even posted the damn pictures.



    It took rocket science to get them into geosynchronous orbits, but it doesn?t take rocket science to understand what is being discussed and how a technical websites about GPS trumps your consumer user manuals.
  • Reply 171 of 237
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,501member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    One should always read the entire paragraph. It indicates what has been discussed in this thread. Note the Earth is spherical, not flat.



    If you want to be pedantic you can say on satellite can determine your position, albeit within a very generalized location that is far to great to be useful to the user unless they only need to determine which continent or planet they reside.



    What seems to be happening, is that there are two things being measured. Horizontal position, on an x/y axis, which requires three satellites, and height position on the z axis, which requires four.



    I'm reading from some people that four are required, but I'm also reading here, and in other places that only three are required for land use. I don't believe that the articles that state three are needed are wrong. And until someone provides a decimate link that can be trusted, that proves, conclusively, that four are needed, at a minimum, it isn't proving believable. In addition to the manual posted, I distantly remember, from the GPs units I've owned over the years, that three were needed, unless altitude was required. In the three articles I've read in the past day, all three also say that three are needed for terrestrial purposes, and that four are needed for flight purposes.



    So again, unless someone posts information that definitely shows us this is untrue, I see no reason to believe it, no matter how insistent some people here are. If information is posted that is reliable that does prove that four are always needed, then I will believe it. The same thing is true for maximum numbers.
  • Reply 172 of 237
    tjwaltjwal Posts: 404member
    When I screw up either deliberatly or by mistake I apolgize, why can't Apple do that?
  • Reply 173 of 237
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,501member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    You seriously don?t consider a consumer product?s user manual as layman oriented?



    It doesn't matter whether they are layman or not. What matters is whether they are right. I believe that Garmin, and other GPS manufacturers know what they're talking about. I'm not so sure about others here who insist on giving different information.
  • Reply 174 of 237
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    What seems to be happening, is that there are two things being measured. Horizontal position, on an x/y axis, which requires three satellites, and height position on the z axis, which requires four.



    I'm reading from some people that four are required, but I'm also reading here, and in other places that only three are required for land use. I don't believe that the articles that state three are needed are wrong. And until someone provides a decimate link that can be trusted, that proves, conclusively, that four are needed, at a minimum, it isn't proving believable. In addition to the manual posted, I distantly remember, from the GPs units I've owned over the years, that three were needed, unless altitude was required. In the three articles I've read in the past day, all three also say that three are needed for terrestrial purposes, and that four are needed for flight purposes.



    So again, unless someone posts information that definitely shows us this is untrue, I see no reason to believe it, no matter how insistent some people here are. If information is posted that is reliable that does prove that four are always needed, then I will believe it. The same thing is true for maximum numbers.



    I don?t think they are wrong, either, I even posted how less than 3 can determine your position, but three is to determine your position on a plane which satellites 12,000 miles up measuring a tiny object on the surface of a sphere can?t accurately accomplish without 4 satellites. Since they are geosynchronous and the Earth?s surface isn?t changing with any great degree (even Mount Everest is only 5.5 miles above sea level) they will often do a decent job with 3 with some assumed data on elevation.
  • Reply 175 of 237
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,501member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


    I'm not scolding you at all. It's a very common error to think three sats would triangulalate your position and this give you an accurate location. Common-sense really. But that's not how GPS works.



    In the most simple of terms, it's just timing. Very, very precise timing. Milliseconds. You have most of the picture correct.



    Three satellites have placed you in a fairly specific spot on a two dimensional plane. But GPS timing signals can't work in two dimensions. Why? Because your navigation device is using the time it takes to receive the GPS signals as a reference to determine where you are in relation to the known position of the satellites. Without that 3rd dimension how would your device determine how far you are from the signal source? You're dealing with a spherical object rather than a flat piece of paper. Without that 4th point, there's no way to compute the distance, and thus time difference, between the source and your device. Elevation is not just a nice thing to know. It's a required element in the mathematical equation.



    MStone: Garmin isn't lying. They've told you that the forth satellite locked will provide elevation. I just expalined why that's needed. Garmin could have been more clear that they mention the 4th sat because it's a required piece of the puzzle. But the manual never says that only three sats are needed for positioning. It could have been stated more clearly.



    The manual is saying exactly what you're saying it isn't saying. How can you disagree with that? If you're saying the manual is wrong, that's different. But it very definitely is saying that three satellites are needed for horizontal positioning. It's quite clear.
  • Reply 176 of 237
    robin huberrobin huber Posts: 3,892member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mbarriault View Post


    I saw dozens of commenters on Engadget being tinfoil-hat-y calling it a bunch of lies and a cover.



    I literally facepalmed.



    Like the "Birthers", it's not about facts, it's about what you are predisposed to believe. This full disclosure will give confidence and back-up to those who saw this "spying" issue for the hysteria that it was. Similarly, it will be rejected out of hand by those who are natively paranoid, Apple haters, or both.



    Obama released the original birth certificate today knowing full well that those who are either willfully ignorant or cynically manipulative about his American citizenship will find many ways to dismiss it. It's a lose/lose and he knew it, which is why he didn't do this sooner.



    I can't "prove" that I wasn't born somewhere else so how can he. My birth certificate, and yours, could be fakes, right? You can't prove a negative.



    Sorry, had to vent. I know I should have done it elsewhere, but I am here. What can I say?
  • Reply 177 of 237
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,501member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    I?m not sure what part of that is hard to understand. I copy and pasted a good ovutline or what 1, 2, 3 and 4 satellites can do for your location. I even posted the damn pictures.



    It took rocket science to get them into geosynchronous orbits, but it doesn?t take rocket science to understand what is being discussed and how a technical websites about GPS trumps your consumer user manuals.



    It's not. You need three satellites.
  • Reply 178 of 237
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mstone View Post


    Regardless why would they lie in the documentation? Why don't they just say four are required?



    Again from the user manual:



    "The GPS unit needs to acquire good signals from at least three satellites to determine a position on the the surface of the earth. A fourth signal is required to get three-dimentional positioning which determines elevation or altitude."



    Simple answer. There are four unknowns in the equations to solve for GPS posisitions. 3 of them are positional unknowns and the other is time because it's impossible to sync the clocks on the satalite together to the accurancy needed. Because there are 4 unknowns in the equations there needs to be 4 measurements from different satalites to determine a complete position.



    However if they assume an elevation they can find Lat and Long on 3





    Also I like Apple's way of working the GPS data better than my old garmin. The Garmin's filter would struggle to converge if your previous location was much different than your current position (think flying across country). The iphone and the Tom Tom app doesn't have that problem
  • Reply 179 of 237
    noirdesirnoirdesir Posts: 1,027member
  • Reply 180 of 237
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 23,935member
    Mel, I already gave you a "trusted source" besides me. GPSInformation.net is an authoritative source for gps-related technical papers and both basic and intensive articles on the uses and functions of gps devices and features.



    I listed my qualifications earlier. I'm considered a trusted source within the navigation community. I've now given you another trusted source in addition to a gps specific forum from earlier, GPSReview.net. That's three authoritative sources.



    The articles you are depending on for your information are not what you would consider trusted sources are they? You really would look at them as experts in the GPS field simply because thy have an article on the web, yet doubt actual GPS sources who specialize in that field?



    Why not test my statement?. Take your gps device outside, pull up the satellite screen and see how many satellites you show when your device shows it's ready to navigate. Simple enough.
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