Best martial artist...still Bruce Lee

Posted:
in General Discussion edited January 2014
To me, there will never be anyone that compares to Bruce. It goes beyond pure skill and fighting moves.



Bruce has that plus that downright mean streak that no one else possess. I love those close up shots of his face when he breaks someone's neck. Plus his style (cat like) and grace is something that the others sorely lack.



I'll give Jackie Chan points for carving out a niche for himself using humour.

While Jet Li is fast and good, he lacks personality. Although he is getting better in recent films.

Van Damne...uh don't know what he's up to but I never thought much of his skills anyways.
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 22
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,268member
    Bruce is/was the man.
  • Reply 2 of 22
    matsumatsu Posts: 6,558member
    I think that even way back then, there were plenty of martial artists who would have handed Bruce Lee his ass, screen fighting, like stage fighting, is nothing like the real thing. For good demonstartions of what a real one on one fight looks like, take a look at UFC or shoot fighting.
  • Reply 3 of 22
    satchmosatchmo Posts: 2,699member
    [quote]Originally posted by Matsu:

    <strong>I think that even way back then, there were plenty of martial artists who would have handed Bruce Lee his ass, screen fighting, like stage fighting, is nothing like the real thing. For good demonstartions of what a real one on one fight looks like, take a look at UFC or shoot fighting.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Obviously moves are choreographed for film so it's difficult to know Bruce's actual track record. However, one story has surfaced since his death is the one where an extra on the set, challenged Bruce to a fight. Needless to say, he got his ass kicked.

    Bruce was a fitness freak and a master of the arts teaching and developing fighting moves.

    I wouldn't be so sure he would lose to some of those UFC fighters.
  • Reply 4 of 22
    Mr. Miyagui is the BEST!
  • Reply 4 of 22
    matsumatsu Posts: 6,558member
    No, he could win a few, but more than anything those rings dispel the myth of the grand champion/master, no undefeatables, everybody gets a beating now and again, beating up an extra doesn't count for much.



    [ 12-12-2002: Message edited by: Matsu ]</p>
  • Reply 6 of 22
    satchmosatchmo Posts: 2,699member
    Or maybe, David Carradine!

    That extra may have been one tough muther. But again, it's all speculation on who would win.



    BTW, the intention of the thread was really in the realm of entertainment...not so much real brawling.
  • Reply 7 of 22
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,268member
    Matsu...go read up a little more on Bruce Lee. He never intended to get into movies. He was a Martial Artist back when it was viewed as an "Art". He created Jeet Kun Do. Sure their may be someone out there who could take Bruce but I doubt most of those UFC Bozo's could handle him. His feet were faster than most peoples hands. I think you got him confused with Steven Segal or Van Damme.
  • Reply 8 of 22
    stunnedstunned Posts: 1,096member
    Yes, bruce was the best. Even now, his shows still appear frequently on television.



    His moves are fantastic!
  • Reply 9 of 22
    matsumatsu Posts: 6,558member
    No, it's a myth propelled by the best screen performances ever. Yes, he was a real martial artist before he was a performer, and I don't doubt that he could train himself to be a formidable "fighter" but that is not what he trained for, even if he publicly claimed that. His own system of fighting shows a great many weaknesses against a prepared single fighter, though (in philosophy) it would be ideal against multiple attackers. Those UFC type guys are not idiots, they train for a "one-on-one" fight, they would quickly reach him and minimize his ability to throw attacks by basically smothering him and choking him. Lee would be helped by the fact that he was wirey and extremely strong and compact, but there are others with extreme strength too. And it isn't about speed, it's about timing. A good boxer would avoid a great many of Bruce Lee's punches, they would seem to connect, but they wouldn't do much damage, because boxers have highly refined timing, they let you throw, and they make you miss, only just, but you miss, even when you "think" you've connected. Of course a boxer would be completely flabbergasted when Bruce kicked his knees out from under him and left him writhing on the mat, but that's not the point. The point is you can train parts (and the whole) of your body to achieve an innate timing, which is itself nothing more than a controlled 'reflex'. Something to make you efficient. If someone throws a punch at you, a person with good reflexes can avoid/minimize it, but they basically can only do so in flight. A boxer, OTOH, can avoid it, but control the flight response, he avoids it just enough so that he can stand his ground and avoid a second and third punch, and return punches. He's conditioned, it's more in his muscles than in his brain. Bruce Lee was also superbly conditioned, but I'll bet anyone that his hand-speed was not more than a top fly-weight's, though he had the advantage of knowing what to do with his legs aswell, which boxer's do not have.



    But, one on one (and only "one-on-one"), wrestlers will school them both. Not pure wrestlers, but control experts with the right (minimal) set of kicks and punches. You underestimate the kind of grip these guys can generate. You don't how hard they can squeeze untill someone wakes you up off the mat. I know because I've been "squeezed-out" before, it's scary. And their pain threshold is right up there, a punch or a kick won't stop 'em from bearing down on you (if they're used to it). I'm a pretty big guy (and young) and I remember this one time, at jujitsu, I got my ass kicked by a 50 year old police officer, also a big guy, but 50, come on, right? Wrong, I had him, for what seemed like 5 minutes, in an arm bar, twisting as hard as I could. He was sweating a little, but it didn't really phase him. He got out, tossed me around for a few minutes, and then did about the same thing to me, I gave up in about 3 seconds, he was that strong! Also, I'm a big pussy, but that's another story. Now, I suck, but there's a lot stronger, better, and younger than my police friend out there, and not Bruce Lee or anyone else would escape some of the holds these guys can put on you.



    The advantage goes to the martial artist (Karate, Kung Fu, et al) when you face the prospect of multiple attackers and you can't afford to get bogged down in a man to man grappling contest. If I twist a guys elbow behind his back and squeeze his neck, that doesn't exactly stop his friends from breaking a 2 by 4 over my head or knifing me in the back does it. Against 2 or more guys, Bruce Lee may have been the best, but not one on one, as good as he may have been, it's not the right skill set.
  • Reply 10 of 22
    Wow. That was a lot of hot air. Bruce Lee was a martial artist/athelete first, philosopher/teacher second, performer last. I'm pretty sure you can find either on the web or in martial arts circles/stores video evidence of Lee's contests and demonstrations (the famous 'one inch punch' his return after a back injury). He was so focused on everything he did...but I think fame burned him out.



    Remember too that when he opened the martial arts school in San Francisco he allowed non-asians to attend which pissed off the other asians and they challenged him to stop. He did lose sometimes, even broke his back. But he had some drive within him that just made him stronger and wiser. He was more than a martial artist/actor. He was a role model and activist for asians. Great man. <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
  • Reply 11 of 22
    Bruce Lee Rocks!



    There's a good documentary on him on DVD. It's really worth watching.



    There are some scenes of him back in Hong Kong doing real fights where people did get hurt.



    What I admire most about the man is his courage and philosophy of life.



    He's incredible, yet he was laughed at by many Americans because he was Chinese.
  • Reply 12 of 22
    hong kong fuey would owned their asses.he's a number one super guy.



    [ 12-12-2002: Message edited by: running with scissors ]</p>
  • Reply 13 of 22
    matsumatsu Posts: 6,558member
    Say what will, but mixed martial arts guys like Gracie (Renzo, Royler or Royce, take your pick), Rodriguez, Shamrock, or Yoshida are very tough guys. Mixed and "no holds barred" contests bear it out with startling regularity, strikers are at a distinct disadvantage against grapplers. Jiu-jitsu, Judo, and wrestling routinely school other martial arts forms when it comes to one on one contests. Look it up for yourselves.



    If we're talking about inspirational stories, then full credit to Bruce Lee for overcoming a great many obstacles on his way to teaching eastern martial arts to the world.
  • Reply 14 of 22
    [quote]Originally posted by Matsu:

    <strong>Say what will, but mixed martial arts guys like Gracie (Renzo, Royler or Royce, take your pick), Rodriguez, Shamrock, or Yoshida are very tough guys...</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Whatever. Still think if Lee was alive today (and in his prime) and was in a match with any (or all) he'd whoop major ass damage.



    A bad reference...but try and see AMC's documentary on Lee's last film "Game of Death". All of the fight scenes were dipicting how Lee's form of martial arts (Jeet Kun Do) could repel and defend any foe(s), of any size and with whatever form or martial arts around. He had filmed all those scenes before his death and were restored to what Lee had written down in his directorial notes and storyboards.



    There's also an interview Lee made where he discusses his melding of philosophy with Jeet Kun Do...face it...he is and will always be the best.
  • Reply 15 of 22
    Lee vs UFC? The UFC matches are done in close quarters. If Bruce Less fought any of these guys out in the open, I bet he'd win. In the cage, though, it's more difficult for him, since basically all styles of kung fu seem to emphasize movement. The guys that win UFC are the ones that charge & grapple.
  • Reply 16 of 22
    matsumatsu Posts: 6,558member
    Well, that's the first reasonable statement based on fight dynamics so far in this thread (except for my own, natch ) And, I think that a dynamic environment full of useable weapons would aid Bruce Lee to no end (versus the guys I mentioned). I don't disagree that he was great, one of the greatest, I just don't agree with the idea that he was some undefeatable god-like martial artist, or that his ideas about fighting were particularly more useful than a good deal of other ideas.



    It just isn't true, no such fighter exists, anyone can be beaten, not by me, but by another trained to do it, many others. It comes down to an appropriate style for the right environment.
  • Reply 17 of 22
    powerdocpowerdoc Posts: 8,123member
    Bruce Lee was not only a great martial art master, but also a great actor. He has the ability to express pure violence.



    Now for the ability to do real fight, we must be aware that it was not really big or tall, it would be difficult for him to fight against monster baby of more than 200 pounds and 6 feets tall.
  • Reply 18 of 22
    satchmosatchmo Posts: 2,699member
    [quote]Originally posted by Powerdoc:

    <strong>



    Now for the ability to do real fight, we must be aware that it was not really big or tall, it would be difficult for him to fight against monster baby of more than 200 pounds and 6 feets tall.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    I've seen many oversized lugs who can't take a simple punch.

    But getting back to the initial intent of this thread, no one has come up with a worthy successor to Bruce Lee, in the movies.
  • Reply 19 of 22
    powerdocpowerdoc Posts: 8,123member
    [quote]Originally posted by satchmo:

    <strong>



    I've seen many oversized lugs who can't take a simple punch.

    But getting back to the initial intent of this thread, no one has come up with a worthy successor to Bruce Lee, in the movies.</strong><hr></blockquote>

    I do not say the contrary but do you think that in boxing the world champion of less than 90 pounds has a change against the champion of the super-heavy ?



    And i agree with your other statement.
  • Reply 20 of 22
    [quote]Originally posted by satchmo:

    <strong>I've seen many oversized lugs who can't take a simple punch.

    But getting back to the initial intent of this thread, no one has come up with a worthy successor to Bruce Lee, in the movies.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Because there isn't one. He set the standard waaaay above any other martial artist in film. He had style, charisma, expertise and...you could understand 90% of what his dialogue was.



    He's dead. We'll never know how he could fare with the current crop of martial arts experts...



    What baffles me is in practically every film he made there are great examples of how his style of martial arts is an adaptible form of self defense and offense. You adapt to your surroundings, your opponent(s) and to their mindset...see The fight scenes from Game of Death, Enter the Dragon and Return of the Dragon w/ Chuck Norris...it's all there to see.



    and...



    <a href="http://www.amctv.com/article/0,,1078-1--0-5-EST,00.html"; target="_blank">Bruce Lee: A Warrior's Journey</a>



    [ 12-12-2002: Message edited by: Artman @_@ ]</p>
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