Eighteen years? So you've held on to your Quadra for that amount of time? Apple hasn't put out a "mid-range" monitor-less computer since Steve came back and axed the old lines.
No. But I sure as hell don't want a computer bigger than my old PowerMac G4. I just want an easy to get into Mac that has room for two hard drives and an optical drive where I can use the monitor I already have. It's crazy that in order to get something that simple you have to spend $2500.
Without a mid range monitor-less Mac I'm close to saying goodbye to Apple after 18 years. No amount of portable/mobile products will make me want a glossy screen all in one. Apple needs a new cube with more features than what you get on an iMac or mini.
However leaving Apple because you don't like the screen is just screwy.
I realize Apples line up of desktops is stale and no longer a land of innovation The problem is I also realize that Apple has to offer up products that sell. Like it or not the very few voices in this forum looking for a matte screen iMac do not make a viable market.
My mind has been open since I chatted with Kuato in Total Recall! Classic flick.
I own a MacBook Pro (13in, so no matte option) and use a 27in glossy iMac as a QA machine a few times a week. I'm well aware of the differences between matte and glossy and use both. I just want a matte option since I find that much easier on my eyes.
I may end up just going with a mini in the future and using my Dell UltraSharps as my main desktop. Or some new plaything Apple comes out with.
I just know I'll be clicking buy the second a matte option appears for the iMac.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
Further there has to be more demand than a few people on AI whining about their inability to work with they current monitor line up. This noise makes about as much sense as the people that try to drive their cars through a snow bank then whine that their car is no good in the snow.
You really should open up your mind a bit and not allow yourself to damn something you haven't tried. Each new Mac should be evaluated on it's own merits, that includes whatever screen they install on it.
My iPad is now my presentation tool of choice - much easier than lugging the MBP around. So I will be moving to an iMac to supplement the iPad very soon as the MBP is almost entirely desk-based these days.
I haven't got that wired yet. I still need my MBP with the VGA dongle and the PCI card slot to show up totally prepared without asking for IT help.
I can understand the issues around the expense. Sometimes the software is just way to expensive to justify even using. However you can always roll your own software with SQLite and the programming language of your choosing.
On the otherhand Apple has been very aggressive in driving down the cost of software. This will eventually impact other vendors, so maybe a suitable database will pop up that is inexpensive.
I haven't played with it really at all, but he may want to give Bento a try. I believe it is relatively cheap and may provide some of the ease of use experience that FMP has...
It's interesting to go to a conference and sit behind a row of people running Mac laptops.
You see this wall of mirrors in their laps, and can watch 8 faces from behind, reflected in their screen, as they each bob and weave their heads from side to side to avoid the glare and make out what's on the screen ...
But man, the colors are great ... at least if you can mentally subtract the reflected image of the room and face from each pixel...
It illustrates the frivolousness of modern computers; showroom flash is more important than functionality.
Now for the vigorous defense from Apple shareholders/tulip bulb salesmen:
What I found interesting at the last big conference I attended (1,400 geeks in NY) was how many people were using iPads instead of Mac laptops. I took my 13" MBP and my Wifi iPad and quickly found it was much simpler to use the iPad with the bluetooth keyboard to take notes, track Twitter feeds, and so on. Better battery life, much lighter to haul around.
Next conference, I'm leaving the MBP at home. Oh, and I don't care about the screen reflections - I just align it right so I don't see them.
One of the beneficiaries of cloud based itunes might be the iMac, which will enable iTunes users to stay synchronised between iMac, Macbook Pro, iPhone, Apple TV and iPad.
Two comments: (1) after the Amazon cloud meltdown, a lot of users will be wary about trusting their data to the cloud. (2) a lot of users have limited bandwidth. I'm running on a 100Mbps fibre connection here; in my office the connection is not much better than 3Mbps with a lot of "stuttering" which would not work well for audio or video streaming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by womble2k2
Also, the halo effect of iPad and iPhone seems to be holding Apple desktop sales at a flat level, whilst PC manufacturers are in decline.
No question the IOS devices are driving sales and revenues for Apple, but the laptops and desktops are doing pretty darn well too, with a significant growth in market share over the past few years. I've seen a lot of people start with an iPad, then add a MacBook in the past year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by womble2k2
I believe the market is now between;
i. low end mobile laptop users, who opt for low end Windows machines or tablet format devices.
ii. high end mobile laptop users / users who use a mobile with screen, keyboard, mouse as a combo desktop / mobile device. More often, these users are turning to Macbook Pro's / Airs
iii. low end desktop users, who use very basic desktop machines running Windows
iv. mid to high end desktop market, with a growing percentage of users opting for Apple machines
v. High end gamers / hobbyists who like to optimise their hardware and therefore opt for windows based machines
I think in the first group the only growth is happening for iPads. Other tablets have so far quite miserable sales; low end Windows machines are recording steep declines in sales.
Yes re. the second and third groups. iPad and MacBook Pro/Air sales are definitely leading to greater interest in Mac Minis and iMacs, both of which are fairly price competitive versus Windows machines.
Yes on the last group - gamers mostly - who don't buy "stock" hardware and so don't help the bottom line of the big Windows desktop makers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by womble2k2
Given Apples strengths are in the mid to high end markets, I don't see them worrying too much about the percentage of sales swinging towards mobile devices if overall sales of desktops can be maintained flat, or even decrease to say 500,000 units per quarter. It would still be a multi-billion dollar business in it's own right. Given the the OS, and many software / hardware design elements are shared between the mobile and desktop machines, it does help to manage the cost base.
If the drive is to making the footprint smaller, then the lessons of the Macbook Air and iPad will be of great benefit.
Phil
I doubt very much that Apple would be happy with a decrease in desktop sales units. Actually, I think the opposite is possible: an increase driven by corporate purchasing. The iPad and iPhone have forced the conservative dinosaurs running corporate IT departments to "facilitate" their use. When the bosses start demanding their new iPhone4s and iPad2s be able to connect to corporate email and other services, it is no longer just Joe-the-geek in the art department wanting to connect an Apple device. Once that gate is open, there's no closing it. I was in the IT dept of a company (NYSE listed) with nearly 7,000 mostly white collar employees a few weeks back; the manager told me he had to open the network to iPhones a while back, then iPads last year, and now he has a fast-growing number of users with MacBooks. They're "testing" a half-dozen iMacs and he thinks they will make them an option for users by this summer. He agreed, "the bosses are pushing this."
Won't take too many large corporations going that way to make a significant difference to Apple's desktop sales,
My girlfriend works for a major finance corporation. She has been advised that they are going to phase out the Blackberry/IBM laptop combi for iPads/iPhones.
And the Apple Store is down for updates.....what could it be???
However leaving Apple because you don't like the screen is just screwy.
Not just the screen. The complete lack of a mid sized, mid range desktop computer that does not have a built in screen. I do not like all in ones. Period. I'll never buy one. I do not want to lose features that I believe are very basic. Two internal hard drives and an optical drive.
The only computer Apple makes that offers these very basic features is the $2499 Mac Pro.
That's a high price to pay for basics.
I don't want a computer bigger than my PowerMac G4. The Mac Pro is bigger. I could chunk down the money for the Pro but honestly that would be wasteful. I don't need that much computer.
Apple either needs to offer a tall mini that has internal room for expansion or redesign the mini with Thunderbolt on the top and bottom of the case that allows direct plug in of stack-able expansion cases.
Not just the screen. The complete lack of a mid sized, mid range desktop computer that does not have a built in screen. I do not like all in ones. Period. I'll never buy one. I do not want to lose features that I believe are very basic. Two internal hard drives and an optical drive.
The only computer Apple makes that offers these very basic features is the $2499 Mac Pro.
That's a high price to pay for basics.
I don't want a computer bigger than my PowerMac G4. The Mac Pro is bigger. I could chunk down the money for the Pro but honestly that would be wasteful. I don't need that much computer.
Apple either needs to offer a tall mini that has internal room for expansion or redesign the mini with Thunderbolt on the top and bottom of the case that allows direct plug in of stack-able expansion cases.
What you are describing at the end there for that Mini would be an extraordinarily niche product and there is no way Apple will do that. Redesign the Mini w/Sandy Bridge and Thunderbolt definitely. Why exactly must you have 2 internal drives and an optical? External drives and enclosures for internal drives are very cheap these days and it's dead easy to go w/home server options for extra storage.
Get an updated Mini when it is released. Either go w/the Server model for the 2 HDs and pick up the MBA Superdrive to go along w/it or buy a normal Mini and an external enclosure that matches well. Problem solved and still much smaller than your G4. If you're still running that G4 as your main computer, even the c2d Mini will smoke it.
My girlfriend works for a major finance corporation. She has been advised that they are going to phase out the Blackberry/IBM laptop combi for iPads/iPhones.
And the Apple Store is down for updates.....what could it be???
Just ordered the Z70M 27", 3.4 GHz i7, 6970M Radeon. Staring with 8GB RAM which will likely upgrade to 16GB later. Two TB ports is awesome as I've been looking for a fast solution for hooking up 12 terabytes of data; now I just need to track down the right hardware
What you are describing at the end there for that Mini would be an extraordinarily niche product and there is no way Apple will do that. Redesign the Mini w/Sandy Bridge and Thunderbolt definitely. Why exactly must you have 2 internal drives and an optical? External drives and enclosures for internal drives are very cheap these days and it's dead easy to go w/home server options for extra storage.
Get an updated Mini when it is released. Either go w/the Server model for the 2 HDs and pick up the MBA Superdrive to go along w/it or buy a normal Mini and an external enclosure that matches well. Problem solved and still much smaller than your G4. If you're still running that G4 as your main computer, even the c2d Mini will smoke it.
Perhaps I like the cleanliness and organization of having things internal. Why buy a nice looking Mac computer that Apple has spent lots of time making look nice and then attaching non matching third party drives to it? I like having two drives so I can back up data in case a drive dies. I have CD's and DVD's that are perfectly good to use in the home so why should I spend the time and energy ripping (which I still need a drive for anyway) when I can just use them with an optical drive?
What you are describing at the end there for that Mini would be an extraordinarily niche product and there is no way Apple will do that. Redesign the Mini w/Sandy Bridge and Thunderbolt definitely.
Why not something stackable? People already stack Minis in an adhoc manner. You really don't need connectors at the top and bottom either, a patch cord would do the job.
The thing is if you are about to redesign the Mini why not take into account real user needs? Thunderbolt means you will have the ability to connect such options in a effective manner.
Quote:
Why exactly must you have 2 internal drives and an optical? External drives and enclosures for internal drives are very cheap these days and it's dead easy to go w/home server options for extra storage.
The one thing I find funny or painful about this discussions is the above statements from Mac defenders. It is pretty incredible that Apple has gotten so many to believe that a stupid idea is the accepted norm. External drives are one of those things that is just plain stupid.
Why you might ask. For one all Intel chip sets support multiple SATA ports these days. This means that support of internal drives costs very little in the way of hardware. Second internally wired devices are far more reliable than externally wired, plus you don't use up another external AC outlet with a wall wart. Third internal drives allow for multiple solutions to different problems. By this I mean one can RAID a set of drives if one wants to. Or one can put the bulk storage on a slower magnetic drive and run the system off of an SSD. The third point is all about flexibility. Fourth external enclosures are very expensive.
A server is an entirely different solution than adding internal drives and really has no play in this situation.
Quote:
Get an updated Mini when it is released. Either go w/the Server model for the 2 HDs and pick up the MBA Superdrive to go along w/it or buy a normal Mini and an external enclosure that matches well. Problem solved and still much smaller than your G4. If you're still running that G4 as your main computer, even the c2d Mini will smoke it.
Smoking the old computer has nothing to do with this discussion either. It is a discussion about the lack of an affordable Mac with internal drive bays that allow people to configure Mac to their needs.
The analysis that the desktop is losing market share tho laptops is true but over simplified.
If you look at the chart from the article, the normal up down wobble desktop sales number are showing an overall increase just not as much as laptops are.
As Apple slowly transitions into a full-fledge mobile company, desktops have seen their share of Mac shipments slip into a slow but inevitable decline, falling from more than 50% of the company's Mac product shipments in the first quarter of 2006 to just 26% of the total units Mac units shipped during the second fiscal quarter of 2011 (see graph below). . . Apple faces a tall order in attempting to keep the desktop relevant in today's climate.
This assessment strikes me as unduly pessimistic. The graph clearly shows a net increase in desktop sales, just at a slower rate than increase in portable device sales (which might be what you predict based on product range and pricing). Neither show evidence of saturation or decline. They still ship millions of units every year.
Comments
Eighteen years? So you've held on to your Quadra for that amount of time? Apple hasn't put out a "mid-range" monitor-less computer since Steve came back and axed the old lines.
No. But I sure as hell don't want a computer bigger than my old PowerMac G4. I just want an easy to get into Mac that has room for two hard drives and an optical drive where I can use the monitor I already have. It's crazy that in order to get something that simple you have to spend $2500.
Without a mid range monitor-less Mac I'm close to saying goodbye to Apple after 18 years. No amount of portable/mobile products will make me want a glossy screen all in one. Apple needs a new cube with more features than what you get on an iMac or mini.
However leaving Apple because you don't like the screen is just screwy.
I realize Apples line up of desktops is stale and no longer a land of innovation The problem is I also realize that Apple has to offer up products that sell. Like it or not the very few voices in this forum looking for a matte screen iMac do not make a viable market.
I own a MacBook Pro (13in, so no matte option) and use a 27in glossy iMac as a QA machine a few times a week. I'm well aware of the differences between matte and glossy and use both. I just want a matte option since I find that much easier on my eyes.
I may end up just going with a mini in the future and using my Dell UltraSharps as my main desktop. Or some new plaything Apple comes out with.
I just know I'll be clicking buy the second a matte option appears for the iMac.
Further there has to be more demand than a few people on AI whining about their inability to work with they current monitor line up. This noise makes about as much sense as the people that try to drive their cars through a snow bank then whine that their car is no good in the snow.
You really should open up your mind a bit and not allow yourself to damn something you haven't tried. Each new Mac should be evaluated on it's own merits, that includes whatever screen they install on it.
My iPad is now my presentation tool of choice - much easier than lugging the MBP around. So I will be moving to an iMac to supplement the iPad very soon as the MBP is almost entirely desk-based these days.
I haven't got that wired yet. I still need my MBP with the VGA dongle and the PCI card slot to show up totally prepared without asking for IT help.
I can understand the issues around the expense. Sometimes the software is just way to expensive to justify even using. However you can always roll your own software with SQLite and the programming language of your choosing.
On the otherhand Apple has been very aggressive in driving down the cost of software. This will eventually impact other vendors, so maybe a suitable database will pop up that is inexpensive.
I haven't played with it really at all, but he may want to give Bento a try. I believe it is relatively cheap and may provide some of the ease of use experience that FMP has...
It's interesting to go to a conference and sit behind a row of people running Mac laptops.
You see this wall of mirrors in their laps, and can watch 8 faces from behind, reflected in their screen, as they each bob and weave their heads from side to side to avoid the glare and make out what's on the screen ...
But man, the colors are great ... at least if you can mentally subtract the reflected image of the room and face from each pixel...
It illustrates the frivolousness of modern computers; showroom flash is more important than functionality.
Now for the vigorous defense from Apple shareholders/tulip bulb salesmen:
What I found interesting at the last big conference I attended (1,400 geeks in NY) was how many people were using iPads instead of Mac laptops. I took my 13" MBP and my Wifi iPad and quickly found it was much simpler to use the iPad with the bluetooth keyboard to take notes, track Twitter feeds, and so on. Better battery life, much lighter to haul around.
Next conference, I'm leaving the MBP at home. Oh, and I don't care about the screen reflections - I just align it right so I don't see them.
One of the beneficiaries of cloud based itunes might be the iMac, which will enable iTunes users to stay synchronised between iMac, Macbook Pro, iPhone, Apple TV and iPad.
Two comments: (1) after the Amazon cloud meltdown, a lot of users will be wary about trusting their data to the cloud. (2) a lot of users have limited bandwidth. I'm running on a 100Mbps fibre connection here; in my office the connection is not much better than 3Mbps with a lot of "stuttering" which would not work well for audio or video streaming.
Also, the halo effect of iPad and iPhone seems to be holding Apple desktop sales at a flat level, whilst PC manufacturers are in decline.
No question the IOS devices are driving sales and revenues for Apple, but the laptops and desktops are doing pretty darn well too, with a significant growth in market share over the past few years. I've seen a lot of people start with an iPad, then add a MacBook in the past year.
I believe the market is now between;
i. low end mobile laptop users, who opt for low end Windows machines or tablet format devices.
ii. high end mobile laptop users / users who use a mobile with screen, keyboard, mouse as a combo desktop / mobile device. More often, these users are turning to Macbook Pro's / Airs
iii. low end desktop users, who use very basic desktop machines running Windows
iv. mid to high end desktop market, with a growing percentage of users opting for Apple machines
v. High end gamers / hobbyists who like to optimise their hardware and therefore opt for windows based machines
I think in the first group the only growth is happening for iPads. Other tablets have so far quite miserable sales; low end Windows machines are recording steep declines in sales.
Yes re. the second and third groups. iPad and MacBook Pro/Air sales are definitely leading to greater interest in Mac Minis and iMacs, both of which are fairly price competitive versus Windows machines.
Yes on the last group - gamers mostly - who don't buy "stock" hardware and so don't help the bottom line of the big Windows desktop makers.
Given Apples strengths are in the mid to high end markets, I don't see them worrying too much about the percentage of sales swinging towards mobile devices if overall sales of desktops can be maintained flat, or even decrease to say 500,000 units per quarter. It would still be a multi-billion dollar business in it's own right. Given the the OS, and many software / hardware design elements are shared between the mobile and desktop machines, it does help to manage the cost base.
If the drive is to making the footprint smaller, then the lessons of the Macbook Air and iPad will be of great benefit.
Phil
I doubt very much that Apple would be happy with a decrease in desktop sales units. Actually, I think the opposite is possible: an increase driven by corporate purchasing. The iPad and iPhone have forced the conservative dinosaurs running corporate IT departments to "facilitate" their use. When the bosses start demanding their new iPhone4s and iPad2s be able to connect to corporate email and other services, it is no longer just Joe-the-geek in the art department wanting to connect an Apple device. Once that gate is open, there's no closing it. I was in the IT dept of a company (NYSE listed) with nearly 7,000 mostly white collar employees a few weeks back; the manager told me he had to open the network to iPhones a while back, then iPads last year, and now he has a fast-growing number of users with MacBooks. They're "testing" a half-dozen iMacs and he thinks they will make them an option for users by this summer. He agreed, "the bosses are pushing this."
Won't take too many large corporations going that way to make a significant difference to Apple's desktop sales,
And the Apple Store is down for updates.....what could it be???
And the Apple Store is down for updates.....what could it be???
Guess what:
However leaving Apple because you don't like the screen is just screwy.
Not just the screen. The complete lack of a mid sized, mid range desktop computer that does not have a built in screen. I do not like all in ones. Period. I'll never buy one. I do not want to lose features that I believe are very basic. Two internal hard drives and an optical drive.
The only computer Apple makes that offers these very basic features is the $2499 Mac Pro.
That's a high price to pay for basics.
I don't want a computer bigger than my PowerMac G4. The Mac Pro is bigger. I could chunk down the money for the Pro but honestly that would be wasteful. I don't need that much computer.
Apple either needs to offer a tall mini that has internal room for expansion or redesign the mini with Thunderbolt on the top and bottom of the case that allows direct plug in of stack-able expansion cases.
Not just the screen. The complete lack of a mid sized, mid range desktop computer that does not have a built in screen. I do not like all in ones. Period. I'll never buy one. I do not want to lose features that I believe are very basic. Two internal hard drives and an optical drive.
The only computer Apple makes that offers these very basic features is the $2499 Mac Pro.
That's a high price to pay for basics.
I don't want a computer bigger than my PowerMac G4. The Mac Pro is bigger. I could chunk down the money for the Pro but honestly that would be wasteful. I don't need that much computer.
Apple either needs to offer a tall mini that has internal room for expansion or redesign the mini with Thunderbolt on the top and bottom of the case that allows direct plug in of stack-able expansion cases.
What you are describing at the end there for that Mini would be an extraordinarily niche product and there is no way Apple will do that. Redesign the Mini w/Sandy Bridge and Thunderbolt definitely. Why exactly must you have 2 internal drives and an optical? External drives and enclosures for internal drives are very cheap these days and it's dead easy to go w/home server options for extra storage.
Get an updated Mini when it is released. Either go w/the Server model for the 2 HDs and pick up the MBA Superdrive to go along w/it or buy a normal Mini and an external enclosure that matches well. Problem solved and still much smaller than your G4. If you're still running that G4 as your main computer, even the c2d Mini will smoke it.
Guess what:
I wonder what those were, given that they're wrong...
I wonder what those were, given that they're wrong...
If you consider the BTO options as well, then all of those were given options.
My girlfriend works for a major finance corporation. She has been advised that they are going to phase out the Blackberry/IBM laptop combi for iPads/iPhones.
And the Apple Store is down for updates.....what could it be???
Just ordered the Z70M 27", 3.4 GHz i7, 6970M Radeon. Staring with 8GB RAM which will likely upgrade to 16GB later. Two TB ports is awesome as I've been looking for a fast solution for hooking up 12 terabytes of data; now I just need to track down the right hardware
What you are describing at the end there for that Mini would be an extraordinarily niche product and there is no way Apple will do that. Redesign the Mini w/Sandy Bridge and Thunderbolt definitely. Why exactly must you have 2 internal drives and an optical? External drives and enclosures for internal drives are very cheap these days and it's dead easy to go w/home server options for extra storage.
Get an updated Mini when it is released. Either go w/the Server model for the 2 HDs and pick up the MBA Superdrive to go along w/it or buy a normal Mini and an external enclosure that matches well. Problem solved and still much smaller than your G4. If you're still running that G4 as your main computer, even the c2d Mini will smoke it.
Perhaps I like the cleanliness and organization of having things internal. Why buy a nice looking Mac computer that Apple has spent lots of time making look nice and then attaching non matching third party drives to it? I like having two drives so I can back up data in case a drive dies. I have CD's and DVD's that are perfectly good to use in the home so why should I spend the time and energy ripping (which I still need a drive for anyway) when I can just use them with an optical drive?
Why have a server if I only have one computer?
What you are describing at the end there for that Mini would be an extraordinarily niche product and there is no way Apple will do that. Redesign the Mini w/Sandy Bridge and Thunderbolt definitely.
Why not something stackable? People already stack Minis in an adhoc manner. You really don't need connectors at the top and bottom either, a patch cord would do the job.
The thing is if you are about to redesign the Mini why not take into account real user needs? Thunderbolt means you will have the ability to connect such options in a effective manner.
Why exactly must you have 2 internal drives and an optical? External drives and enclosures for internal drives are very cheap these days and it's dead easy to go w/home server options for extra storage.
The one thing I find funny or painful about this discussions is the above statements from Mac defenders. It is pretty incredible that Apple has gotten so many to believe that a stupid idea is the accepted norm. External drives are one of those things that is just plain stupid.
Why you might ask. For one all Intel chip sets support multiple SATA ports these days. This means that support of internal drives costs very little in the way of hardware. Second internally wired devices are far more reliable than externally wired, plus you don't use up another external AC outlet with a wall wart. Third internal drives allow for multiple solutions to different problems. By this I mean one can RAID a set of drives if one wants to. Or one can put the bulk storage on a slower magnetic drive and run the system off of an SSD. The third point is all about flexibility. Fourth external enclosures are very expensive.
A server is an entirely different solution than adding internal drives and really has no play in this situation.
Get an updated Mini when it is released. Either go w/the Server model for the 2 HDs and pick up the MBA Superdrive to go along w/it or buy a normal Mini and an external enclosure that matches well. Problem solved and still much smaller than your G4. If you're still running that G4 as your main computer, even the c2d Mini will smoke it.
Smoking the old computer has nothing to do with this discussion either. It is a discussion about the lack of an affordable Mac with internal drive bays that allow people to configure Mac to their needs.
If you look at the chart from the article, the normal up down wobble desktop sales number are showing an overall increase just not as much as laptops are.
As Apple slowly transitions into a full-fledge mobile company, desktops have seen their share of Mac shipments slip into a slow but inevitable decline, falling from more than 50% of the company's Mac product shipments in the first quarter of 2006 to just 26% of the total units Mac units shipped during the second fiscal quarter of 2011 (see graph below). . . Apple faces a tall order in attempting to keep the desktop relevant in today's climate.
This assessment strikes me as unduly pessimistic. The graph clearly shows a net increase in desktop sales, just at a slower rate than increase in portable device sales (which might be what you predict based on product range and pricing). Neither show evidence of saturation or decline. They still ship millions of units every year.