I think it is a little more complicated than just counting the pixels. The sub pixels are based on how the cones and retina actually perceive color and luminance. So in some respects it really is a retina display.
I understand the argument that it's supposed to be imperceptible. One can argue same thing about JPGs and 6-bit vs. 8-bit LCD panels. To me, PenTile is the same thing: how much digital information can be "thrown away" without being really obnoxious most of the time. All I'm saying is, if each pixel isn't made up of a enough subpixels to be rendered with the full gamut of RGB colors independent of perception, then we shouldn't call it a 2560x1600 display. Or call them "virtual pixels" that share subpixels with their neighbors. I mean, even if you couldn't tell the difference, you wouldn't want Apple to call their 6-bit color LCD panels "8-bit color" panels, right?
Are you saying that PenTile can be applied to every panel type? I doubt it will be and I doubt it will be used with IPS, hence my query.
In theory, yes.
Again, PenTile is just a subpixel arrangement. You can, in theory, have a PenTile arrangement with any type of backlight and any type of panel. so a RGB LED RGBW PenTile IPS Gorilla Glass Capacitive Touchscreen display can exist (RGB LED describes the backlight, RGBW PenTile describes the subpixel arrangement, IPS describes the panel technology, Gorilla Glass describes the glass on top of the LCD, Capacitive touch describes the touchscreen technology)
Thus far however, We've only seen PenTile arrangements used in OLEDs (Samsung's AMOLED screens uses a RGBG PenTile arrangement), and TN LCDs (the display in the Motorola Atrix uses a RGBW PenTile arrangement).
One of the major reasons RGBG PenTile were used in OLEDs (which, FYI are not LCDs; they are closer to Plasma displays than LCDs) was because blue subpixels in OLEDs had a much shorter lifespan compared to Green or Red. This problem doesn't exist in traditional LCDs, and given the drawbacks of the RGBG PenTile arrangement, you generally won't see them used on traditional LCDs.
RGBW PenTile, on the otherhand, does provide some benefit to traditional LCDs, specifically the W subpixel allows for a much brighter looking screen without needing to crank up the backlight, resulting in battery savings, which is why you're starting to see them pop up in some LCD displays. The drawbacks have been marginally improved from the RGBG PenTile arrangement, but they're still there.
China is largest producer of both. (apples and watermelons)
But you don't ever want to eat a watermelon in China because it contains too much groundwater that hasn't been through a filtering system capable of making that groundwater potable. Of course, if you boil your watermelon first, you can make a decent tea.
I did a little digging and found out a little about AH-IPS (Advanced High Performance In-Plane Switching). Turns out it?s exactly what I'd expect Apple to use.
Advanced form of IPS, has realizes 1.5 to 2 times the resolution of typical LCD panels. This ultra high resolution becomes particularly valuable when the emphasis is on displaying highly detailed images. The technology also improves display's color accuracy, which in turn leads to reproduce the original color precisely without color distortion. In addition, it provides greater light transmission which translates into lower power consumption while delivering exceptional picture quality, making it ideal for use in outdoor settings.
Its a matter of opinion, Android 3.0 is not crap. And on the subject of OS I prefer Win7 over OS-X. From what I can see of lion, OS-X is actually getting worst while windows is getting better, not good for Apple.
I dont think Apple is going to be able to keep is dominant position in the Tablet market like it did with the ipod. The impact of being a control freak close down OS on an ipod are low, but on a device that is close of being a computer, the impact of being close down is much greater. The only thing saving Apple is superior hardware with great prices, not superior software.
Do you see planes? Is your name tattoo? Because I swear you're living on fantasy island!
I understand the argument that it's supposed to be imperceptible. One can argue same thing about JPGs and 6-bit vs. 8-bit LCD panels. To me, PenTile is the same thing: how much digital information can be "thrown away" without being really obnoxious most of the time. All I'm saying is, if each pixel isn't made up of a enough subpixels to be rendered with the full gamut of RGB colors independent of perception, then we shouldn't call it a 2560x1600 display. Or call them "virtual pixels" that share subpixels with their neighbors. I mean, even if you couldn't tell the difference, you wouldn't want Apple to call their 6-bit color LCD panels "8-bit color" panels, right?
Oh, there's plenty of room to fudge. All the 6-bit LCD panels for a long time before, through and after the "OMFG it's not 8-bit" blowup are marketed as "capable of displaying up to 16 million colours". Apple now lists it as "with support for millions of colors" (whatever that means) eg. http://www.apple.com/macbookpro/specs.html
They're not even saying how many millions of colours anymore!!!
Whoever it is will call it a 2560x1600 display. 2048x1536 will be called a Retina Display.
1) Thanks for pointing out the information we already know¡
Apparently, you still dont.
Do you even know what an LCD display consists of?
It consists of a backlight layer, color filter layer and liquid crystal layer.
In your comparison ( Pentile vs IPS ), your comparing a color filter layer with the liquid crystal layer.
You should be comparing (Pentile vs RGB...color filter vs color filter) or (IPS vs PLS.... liquid crystal layer vs liquid crystal layer)... NOT (Pentile vs IPS....color filter layer vs liquid crystal layer).
Get it?
Quote:
PenTile displays have an effective resolution much lower than the specs indicate. If you read the links I supplied earlier, you will learn about why those displays appear inferior.
Yes, I'm very familiar with Pentile arrangement. Having 2 sub pixels per pixel vs RGB's 3. However, once you cross the threhold of the human eye's interpretation of resolution (the point at which the eyes can not distinguish two objects) is roughly around 300ppi. This new tech from Samsung achieves greater than 300ppi density. Therefore, at a given distance, the human eye wont notice any difference between an RGB arrangement or a Pentile arrangement.
According to Samsung's statement, the benefit of a 300ppi Pentile display is much greater than its 2 sub-pixel per pixel limitations: 40 % reduced power consumption. We all know that as display resolution increases, power consumption linearly increases as well. So a 40% REDUCTION in power consumption that also surpasses the human eyes resolution limit is a welcome advancement.
What I'm saying is, the "limitation" of Pentile display has been overcome.
I've had my iPhone 4 since July 2010 and I still have my breath taken away sometimes when that single most incredible display I've ever lay my eyes on lights up, especially in the dark.
I only wish that the one OBVIOUS and now ONLY product of Apple's various devices that have screens would have IPS and that's the MacBook Pro and Air.
I've had my iPhone 4 since July 2010 and I still have my breath taken away sometimes when that single most incredible display I've ever lay my eyes on lights up, especially in the dark.
I only wish that the one OBVIOUS and now ONLY product of Apple's various devices that have screens would have IPS and that's the MacBook Pro and Air.
I like my iPhone 4 screen, but I'm starting to take it for granted, especially with the iPad 1/2, even though it's not Retina. It's when I go to try and use my old iPhone 3G that I suddenly go and realise how good the iPhone 4 screen is. That said in bright sunlight the iPhone 4 is a bit hard to see. There are Android competitors out there with some impressive bright and big high-ppi screens, but I'm swearing to myself not to get another phone until my 2-year contract runs out so I haven't explored them in too much detail.
iPad 3 IPS and Retina Display will be mind-blowing. The only next step from that would be holographic 3D screens (whatever that means).
1) Is it really better than Apple's Displays or simple A higher DPI on paper? There is a huge distinction to me made here.
2) This is great news for Apple. For starters it will lower their panel costs. Secondly, it will cause their competitors to once again compete with a spec sheet even though anything above 300ppi becomes indistinguable for most users.
IOW, this will cause other vendors to compete against each other to go even higher in their DPIs which means more cost for a nearly pointless gain in utility while also incurring a hit on performance for the same GPU as more pixels have to rendered. And this is before you consider that most smartphone competitors are using larger displays to differentiate themselves from the iPhone while allowing more room for internal components.
Don't get me wrong, this is great for consumers, but Apple won't be knocked down because a 100lbs solider deciders to finally wield an 80lb sword. I also expect Apple to continue to make the many other aspects of the display better, which includes the multitouch matrix where the competitors are woefully behind... But that's hard to put on a spec sheet so I doubt that will change soon.
1) Is it really better than Apple's Displays or simple A higher DPI on paper? There is a huge distinction to me made here..
I was parroting Engadget's post on it: "Beyond just cramming more red, green, and blue dots in each inch, these panels also top the bar-setting Retina Display in the contrast department with an impressive 1,500:1 ratio."
EDIT: 9to5Mac is making a guess that this display is headed to Apple.
Yes, I'm very familiar with Pentile arrangement. Having 2 sub pixels per pixel vs RGB's 3. However, once you cross the threhold of the human eye's interpretation of resolution (the point at which the eyes can not distinguish two objects) is roughly around 300ppi.
300 ppi doesn't really define the limits of human vision. 300 ppi is roughly what is required for a distance of 8"-12" for someone with 20/20 vision...depending on what values you use. For someone with 20/15 vision then you need more ppi at the same distance. 20/15 isn't superhuman...most kids have 20/15 or better and will age to 20/20 or worse. Even kids that will eventually wear glasses. My kids have 20/20 at age 6 so they're screwed...in a couple years they'll end up with glasses.
One arc minute is average and the limit is around 0.30 arc minute pixel spacing (aka 0.6 per pair Soneira used) and is dependent on contrast. This also varies for points and line-pairs since we can see lines easier.
Eh...we went all through this when the retina display came out and pretty much determined that it was a really nice display but only "retina" at a certain distance depending on who's numbers you choose.
Regardless you haven't crossed the threshold of the limits of human visual acuity at 300 ppi.
Quote:
This new tech from Samsung achieves greater than 300ppi density. Therefore, at a given distance, the human eye wont notice any difference between an RGB arrangement or a Pentile arrangement.
At "a given distance" this is true of any pixel density if you choose the right distance.
Quote:
According to Samsung's statement,
Well, yeah...
Quote:
What I'm saying is, the "limitation" of Pentile display has been overcome.
If it has then Apple might use it. If not, then not so much. The announced AH-IPS LG panel is a far more likely candidate.
Contrary to some comments in the thread, Engadget reviewers who have seen the product call concerns about pixelation no longer valid with Samsung's new display
Comments
I think it is a little more complicated than just counting the pixels. The sub pixels are based on how the cones and retina actually perceive color and luminance. So in some respects it really is a retina display.
I understand the argument that it's supposed to be imperceptible. One can argue same thing about JPGs and 6-bit vs. 8-bit LCD panels. To me, PenTile is the same thing: how much digital information can be "thrown away" without being really obnoxious most of the time. All I'm saying is, if each pixel isn't made up of a enough subpixels to be rendered with the full gamut of RGB colors independent of perception, then we shouldn't call it a 2560x1600 display. Or call them "virtual pixels" that share subpixels with their neighbors. I mean, even if you couldn't tell the difference, you wouldn't want Apple to call their 6-bit color LCD panels "8-bit color" panels, right?
Are you saying that PenTile can be applied to every panel type? I doubt it will be and I doubt it will be used with IPS, hence my query.
In theory, yes.
Again, PenTile is just a subpixel arrangement. You can, in theory, have a PenTile arrangement with any type of backlight and any type of panel. so a RGB LED RGBW PenTile IPS Gorilla Glass Capacitive Touchscreen display can exist (RGB LED describes the backlight, RGBW PenTile describes the subpixel arrangement, IPS describes the panel technology, Gorilla Glass describes the glass on top of the LCD, Capacitive touch describes the touchscreen technology)
Thus far however, We've only seen PenTile arrangements used in OLEDs (Samsung's AMOLED screens uses a RGBG PenTile arrangement), and TN LCDs (the display in the Motorola Atrix uses a RGBW PenTile arrangement).
One of the major reasons RGBG PenTile were used in OLEDs (which, FYI are not LCDs; they are closer to Plasma displays than LCDs) was because blue subpixels in OLEDs had a much shorter lifespan compared to Green or Red. This problem doesn't exist in traditional LCDs, and given the drawbacks of the RGBG PenTile arrangement, you generally won't see them used on traditional LCDs.
RGBW PenTile, on the otherhand, does provide some benefit to traditional LCDs, specifically the W subpixel allows for a much brighter looking screen without needing to crank up the backlight, resulting in battery savings, which is why you're starting to see them pop up in some LCD displays. The drawbacks have been marginally improved from the RGBG PenTile arrangement, but they're still there.
You can't expect sufficient reproduction when you're faced with PenTile disfunction.
+1 !
But you don't ever want to eat a watermelon in China because it contains too much groundwater that hasn't been through a filtering system capable of making that groundwater potable. Of course, if you boil your watermelon first, you can make a decent tea.
-The Voice of Experience
Looks like LG is getting into the mix with a demo at SID at the same time as Samsung. Now that we have two players this is getting exciting.I did a little digging and found out a little about AH-IPS (Advanced High Performance In-Plane Switching). Turns out it?s exactly what I'd expect Apple to use.Besides the iPad this tech seems exactly what to expect in Macs coming after Lion?s release.
+1.... great find Soli!
Its a matter of opinion, Android 3.0 is not crap. And on the subject of OS I prefer Win7 over OS-X. From what I can see of lion, OS-X is actually getting worst while windows is getting better, not good for Apple.
I dont think Apple is going to be able to keep is dominant position in the Tablet market like it did with the ipod. The impact of being a control freak close down OS on an ipod are low, but on a device that is close of being a computer, the impact of being close down is much greater. The only thing saving Apple is superior hardware with great prices, not superior software.
Do you see planes? Is your name tattoo? Because I swear you're living on fantasy island!
You can't expect sufficient reproduction when you're faced with PenTile disfunction.
You have justified your username!
I understand the argument that it's supposed to be imperceptible. One can argue same thing about JPGs and 6-bit vs. 8-bit LCD panels. To me, PenTile is the same thing: how much digital information can be "thrown away" without being really obnoxious most of the time. All I'm saying is, if each pixel isn't made up of a enough subpixels to be rendered with the full gamut of RGB colors independent of perception, then we shouldn't call it a 2560x1600 display. Or call them "virtual pixels" that share subpixels with their neighbors. I mean, even if you couldn't tell the difference, you wouldn't want Apple to call their 6-bit color LCD panels "8-bit color" panels, right?
Oh, there's plenty of room to fudge. All the 6-bit LCD panels for a long time before, through and after the "OMFG it's not 8-bit" blowup are marketed as "capable of displaying up to 16 million colours". Apple now lists it as "with support for millions of colors" (whatever that means) eg. http://www.apple.com/macbookpro/specs.html
They're not even saying how many millions of colours anymore!!!
Whoever it is will call it a 2560x1600 display. 2048x1536 will be called a Retina Display.
1) Thanks for pointing out the information we already know¡
Apparently, you still dont.
Do you even know what an LCD display consists of?
It consists of a backlight layer, color filter layer and liquid crystal layer.
In your comparison ( Pentile vs IPS ), your comparing a color filter layer with the liquid crystal layer.
You should be comparing (Pentile vs RGB...color filter vs color filter) or (IPS vs PLS.... liquid crystal layer vs liquid crystal layer)... NOT (Pentile vs IPS....color filter layer vs liquid crystal layer).
Get it?
PenTile displays have an effective resolution much lower than the specs indicate. If you read the links I supplied earlier, you will learn about why those displays appear inferior.
Yes, I'm very familiar with Pentile arrangement. Having 2 sub pixels per pixel vs RGB's 3. However, once you cross the threhold of the human eye's interpretation of resolution (the point at which the eyes can not distinguish two objects) is roughly around 300ppi. This new tech from Samsung achieves greater than 300ppi density. Therefore, at a given distance, the human eye wont notice any difference between an RGB arrangement or a Pentile arrangement.
According to Samsung's statement, the benefit of a 300ppi Pentile display is much greater than its 2 sub-pixel per pixel limitations: 40 % reduced power consumption. We all know that as display resolution increases, power consumption linearly increases as well. So a 40% REDUCTION in power consumption that also surpasses the human eyes resolution limit is a welcome advancement.
What I'm saying is, the "limitation" of Pentile display has been overcome.
I only wish that the one OBVIOUS and now ONLY product of Apple's various devices that have screens would have IPS and that's the MacBook Pro and Air.
I've had my iPhone 4 since July 2010 and I still have my breath taken away sometimes when that single most incredible display I've ever lay my eyes on lights up, especially in the dark.
I only wish that the one OBVIOUS and now ONLY product of Apple's various devices that have screens would have IPS and that's the MacBook Pro and Air.
I like my iPhone 4 screen, but I'm starting to take it for granted, especially with the iPad 1/2, even though it's not Retina. It's when I go to try and use my old iPhone 3G that I suddenly go
iPad 3 IPS and Retina Display will be mind-blowing. The only next step from that would be holographic 3D screens (whatever that means).
I guess we can start expecting spam for "Pentile Enhancement"
http://www.engadget.com/2011/05/16/t...for-cellphone/
Today Toshiba showcased their better-than-retina display. The choices for hi-resolution displays is expanding faster than I can keep track of.
http://www.engadget.com/2011/05/16/t...for-cellphone/
1) Is it really better than Apple's Displays or simple A higher DPI on paper? There is a huge distinction to me made here.
2) This is great news for Apple. For starters it will lower their panel costs. Secondly, it will cause their competitors to once again compete with a spec sheet even though anything above 300ppi becomes indistinguable for most users.
IOW, this will cause other vendors to compete against each other to go even higher in their DPIs which means more cost for a nearly pointless gain in utility while also incurring a hit on performance for the same GPU as more pixels have to rendered. And this is before you consider that most smartphone competitors are using larger displays to differentiate themselves from the iPhone while allowing more room for internal components.
Don't get me wrong, this is great for consumers, but Apple won't be knocked down because a 100lbs solider deciders to finally wield an 80lb sword. I also expect Apple to continue to make the many other aspects of the display better, which includes the multitouch matrix where the competitors are woefully behind... But that's hard to put on a spec sheet so I doubt that will change soon.
1) Is it really better than Apple's Displays or simple A higher DPI on paper? There is a huge distinction to me made here..
I was parroting Engadget's post on it: "Beyond just cramming more red, green, and blue dots in each inch, these panels also top the bar-setting Retina Display in the contrast department with an impressive 1,500:1 ratio."
EDIT: 9to5Mac is making a guess that this display is headed to Apple.
http://www.9to5mac.com/67397/toshiba...ybe-for-apple/
Yes, I'm very familiar with Pentile arrangement. Having 2 sub pixels per pixel vs RGB's 3. However, once you cross the threhold of the human eye's interpretation of resolution (the point at which the eyes can not distinguish two objects) is roughly around 300ppi.
300 ppi doesn't really define the limits of human vision. 300 ppi is roughly what is required for a distance of 8"-12" for someone with 20/20 vision...depending on what values you use. For someone with 20/15 vision then you need more ppi at the same distance. 20/15 isn't superhuman...most kids have 20/15 or better and will age to 20/20 or worse. Even kids that will eventually wear glasses. My kids have 20/20 at age 6 so they're screwed...in a couple years they'll end up with glasses.
One arc minute is average and the limit is around 0.30 arc minute pixel spacing (aka 0.6 per pair Soneira used) and is dependent on contrast. This also varies for points and line-pairs since we can see lines easier.
Eh...we went all through this when the retina display came out and pretty much determined that it was a really nice display but only "retina" at a certain distance depending on who's numbers you choose.
Regardless you haven't crossed the threshold of the limits of human visual acuity at 300 ppi.
This new tech from Samsung achieves greater than 300ppi density. Therefore, at a given distance, the human eye wont notice any difference between an RGB arrangement or a Pentile arrangement.
At "a given distance" this is true of any pixel density if you choose the right distance.
According to Samsung's statement,
Well, yeah...
What I'm saying is, the "limitation" of Pentile display has been overcome.
If it has then Apple might use it. If not, then not so much. The announced AH-IPS LG panel is a far more likely candidate.
http://www.engadget.com/2011/05/18/s...l-packed-pent/