Expect to see more hybrid cars

2

Comments

  • Reply 21 of 58
    outsideroutsider Posts: 6,008member
    [quote]Originally posted by Scott:

    <strong>

    BTW where does all the hydrogen come from :confused: </strong><hr></blockquote>



    Ah, thats the biggest issue facing fuel cells as replacements for IC engines. I can only offer a few methods of extraction. One is to reform some material/liquid that is rich in hydrogen like ethanol, methanol, borax, gasoline, etc. This adds extra weight to the car but it would still be equal if not less than what a modern IC engine car has now. Another way is to extract it from water using electricity with an electrolyzer. This is best done off vehicle and in plants. This has the advantage of making the car cheaper (no need for a reformer, just a hydrogen tank) and producing jobs. but someone needs to foot the bill on the plants to begin with. Could be very lucrative.



    My favorite method is to mine it... on a gas giant planet and haul it back to Earth! This is a long ways off, but if it could be done someone may have a huge monopoly on Hydrogen that would make Microsofts monopoly on computers seem like a pathetic joke. :o



    But getting the hydrogen (hydrogen makes up about 98% of the universe mind you) is the biggest obsticle. But it's doable.
  • Reply 22 of 58
    [quote]And I don't see the industry heading toward diesel. It's been around for a long time and if they were going to they would have already. Around here you're hard pressed to find a diesel fill up station, most are near highways.<hr></blockquote>



    You are incorrect.



    Ford is moving towards diesel in a big way. The Focus will get a diesel model in about 3 years. It will be able to meet all EPA regulations. The company views diesel as a big part of its overall strategy in the light duty market. Other car makers are preparing to introduce diesel versions of their SUVs. (Hummer already has, but if you buy a regular gas Hummer you might as well convert it to run on $100 bills)



    The problem with diesel in the U.S has been the leftover animosity from the diesel push of the early 80s, when car makers simply pushed out barely working diesel engines -often engines that were converted from gas to diesel - and watched them fail, belch soot, make a lot of noise and ruin diesels reputation in the U.S.



    In addition, the U.S uses what is called "Dirty Diesel". It's extremely low-quality and has a very high sulphur content. Europe uses a much cleaner version which will hit the U.S in 2006. (Ford is waiting until then to release the Focus).



    Modern diesel engines combined with decent fuel produce little noise, smell and soot. It is likely you would be unable to notice a diesel VW Jetta unless someone pointed it out.



    Which is part of the reason VW is unable to keep up with demand for diesel cars in the U.S. It's currently a 6 month wait for one.



    [quote]Who says you can't make a Diesel/Electric hybrid? The battery and electric motor in the hybrid cars do one thing, they recover energy you ultimately waste while driving. Whenever you're moving and find yourself braking, you are wasting energy. Hybrids try to reuse some of that energy.<hr></blockquote>



    VW threw together a diesel hybrid prototype. It got over 230 MPG.
  • Reply 23 of 58
    [quote]Originally posted by Scott:

    <strong>



    Well to me YOU look like the moron because there is no such thing as a "hydrogen feul cell based electric motor" that can run a car. So her solution was practical and yours is R&D with no grantee of success.



    BTW where does all the hydrogen come from :confused: </strong><hr></blockquote>





    welcome to the future smart guy. btw, maybe you should stick to computers, and away from things you know little about...









    [quote] Maybe you?ve heard. The Honda FCX is the first fuel-cell car to be government- certified for everyday use. Which shouldn?t come as any surprise. Honda has been a pioneer of environmental technology from the beginning. The Honda FCX is poised to follow in this progressive tradition. The fuel-cell itself is propelled by electricity generated by a hydrogen-oxygen chemical reaction?and its only emission, remarkably, is water vapor. Now, with a fresh stamp of approval from the Environmental Protection Agency and the California Air Resources Board, Honda is delivering a family of new FCX fuel-cell vehicles to its first customer, the city of Los Angeles. <hr></blockquote>
  • Reply 24 of 58
    One of my co-workers just bought a Hybrid Civic. He's gotten 250 miles on it and he still has half a tank of gas. When he's at a stoplight, the engine turns off. Takes his foot off the brake, starts right up again. The transmission is stepless as well. That's badass. I'd love a hybrid truck. Do you realize how great it would be to tow a boat and not have to refuel a bunch of times. Kickass!
  • Reply 25 of 58
    scottscott Posts: 7,431member
    The Civic Hybrid has a variable speed transmission. It would seem to me that in bumper to bumper traffic you'd want the engine to stay off all the time.? I've haven't read any details on how Honda makes the thing work, ie when it turn on and off and all that.



    My "new" (getting older ) Civic gets anywhere from 30-34 MPG. Someone I work with has a Jetta TDI that can compete with the Civic Hybrid for mileage. It almost seems like a waste to make a Civic into a hybrid. They?re not the ones causing the problems out there.
  • Reply 26 of 58
    [quote]Originally posted by Scott:

    <strong>They?re not the ones causing the problems out there.</strong><hr></blockquote>





    americans will figure that out soon enough. however, it will be too late by then...

    we need someone (the japanese) to teach us how to do these things the right way. but unfortunately, we just want our bigger and bigger POSs and drive them around the same way we would a civic. what a waste of resources and a planet...
  • Reply 27 of 58
    [quote] Someone I work with has a Jetta TDI that can compete with the Civic Hybrid for mileage.<hr></blockquote>



    They usually average around 44 MPG. A bit less when using winterized diesel.
  • Reply 28 of 58
    scottscott Posts: 7,431member
    [quote]Originally posted by _ alliance _:

    <strong>welcome to the future smart guy. btw, maybe you should stick to computers, and away from things you know little about...</strong><hr></blockquote>



    I'm sorry I should have added "other than concept cars that wont ship for years to come". None of these concept cars are anywhere near ready for consumers. Oh wait, shouldn't we all be driving electric cars based on superconductors right now?



    But about this Honda. Uh huh and how much does it cost and where can I refuel and how do I fit five people in it and .... solve those problems idiot. Otherwise it's a kewl concept car and nothing more.



    So my comment stands. Your's is a major R&D effort that wont pay off for years and her's can start next month. QED



    From Honda site:

    [quote]Honda plans to lease approximately 30 fuel-cell cars in California and Japan during the next several years.<hr></blockquote> "next several years" holly ****ing shit call the Jetsons we're in the friggen space age already.



    Try again slick <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
  • Reply 29 of 58
    outsideroutsider Posts: 6,008member
    Hydrogen will be incredibly hard to store, transport, and contain. On a small scale like in a small super tight tank with in a car it is pretty easy, just engineer something that will have minimal leaking. But for long term storage they need to look at converting some material right at the pump into hydrogen because the hydrogen atom is the smallest there is. It will eventually find the smallest, tiniest hole or crack, no matter how well designed the tank is and leak out. A small tank will be pretty simple to make. A complex refilling station , though, will allow too much leakage. I had an idea about a super fast reformer to replace fuel pumps at gas stations that convert what ever fuel you throw at it into hydrogen. You can use petroleum, ethanol, or methanol. Who cares, in the end you get hydrogen. But it needs to reform pretty fast to be as practical as gasoline refueling. No more than 3 minutes to fill a tank.



    Advantage: you can use the same infrastructure we have now, you just have to replace a few pumps at a station. Fuel comes into the reformer, reformes and the newly released hydrogen gets pumped right into the tank. The non toxic by products are easily disposed of.
  • Reply 30 of 58
    bungebunge Posts: 7,329member
    [quote]Originally posted by Outsider:

    <strong>

    I had an idea about a super fast reformer to replace fuel pumps at gas stations that convert what ever fuel you throw at it into hydrogen. </strong><hr></blockquote>



    That should probably be in a car instead of in the pumps. That way your car can convert even distilled water from a grocery store.



    Of course it would have to be tiny (like a catalytic converter) and rugged (unlike air conditioning systems.)
  • Reply 31 of 58
    outsideroutsider Posts: 6,008member
    [quote]Originally posted by bunge:

    <strong>



    That should probably be in a car instead of in the pumps. That way your car can convert even distilled water from a grocery store.



    Of course it would have to be tiny (like a catalytic converter) and rugged (unlike air conditioning systems.)</strong><hr></blockquote>

    Problem is Reformers are the most expensive part of a fuel cell. <a href="http://www.fuelcellstore.com/cgi-bin/fuelweb/view=subcat/cat=4/subcat=34"; target="_blank">Check here for a sample</a>. Let the stations absorb the cost instead of the consumer; the fuel pumps can be costly anyway. Thats one big reason why fuel cell cars are still on drawing boards and not in your driveway. but who knows, maybe an auto manufacturer will make a cheap to manufacture reformer. But to reform water... you're making water in the fuel cell remember. Hx2+O=water. It will require AT LEAST enough energy to extract hydrogen from the water than will be created when the fuel cell recombines the H2 with the O. There wont be any spare power to power , oh, let's say the motor. A water reformer ONLY makes sense if it is OUT of the vehicle. For the sake of portability.
  • Reply 32 of 58
    [quote]Originally posted by Scott:

    <strong> I'm sorry I should have added "other than concept cars that wont ship for years to come". None of these concept cars are anywhere near ready for consumers. Oh wait, shouldn't we all be driving electric cars based on superconductors right now?



    But about this Honda. Uh huh and how much does it cost and where can I refuel and how do I fit five people in it and .... solve those problems idiot. Otherwise it's a kewl concept car and nothing more.



    So my comment stands. Your's is a major R&D effort that wont pay off for years and her's can start next month. QED



    </strong><hr></blockquote>



    this technology has been around for years already in japan. it is an experiment here in the States cause we are starting to realize that we will require the technology here sooner than most think. the technology is NOT still a concept. it WORKS. it is already being used. they have working models spread throughout california, and GM is about to release their version in the next year. GM hopes to use electric cars in full rotation of their automobiles within a few years. this is alot closer than "new technology." this is the future, and it's closer than you realize. so get your head out of your ass and listen carefully: we can't live off gas forever. our supply is dwindling and will run out sooner, rather than later. it creates pollution--this technology produces NO pollution. how are you not embracing this technology?? it is what we NEED. and it is what we get. stop being so closed minded. that girl's argument will work for a few years. but what about after?? this will take us to the next level of personal transportation. not the segway--this is a clean, cheap, and abundantly available solution that will be able to hold multiple people over long distances. it will have all the advantages of a current IC engine without all the unpleasant consequences.



    this is the future, and the diversity of the vehicles will expand, just as the hybrids are being expanded to bigger cars and even SUVs. hydrogen fuel stations are already available throughout california. these first models that were released are only available to a few "special" people in california, but expect it to be available to the public at an affordable price soon enough.



    i can't believe your arguments. this sh*t didn't happen when the hybrid was announced--it was embraced...and this is better technology, with potential far beyond anything the IC engine can provide. seriously dude, you have no credibility with cars based on yer ignorance thus far. please, i say again...stick to computers.

    for someone who supports apple and its innovation so much, i can't believe that you are rejecting something so important to the future of automotive technology.
  • Reply 33 of 58
    here's how it will work:



    hybrids will become more common in various types of vehicles, ranging from small cars to big SUVs. this technology is still fairly new, but it is being embraced, and rightly so. it is the best we have as of right now.



    soon, electric cars (zero emission) will be made more available to consumers. one requirement is for a hydrogen pump to be provided at every gas station--this will be the most difficult part...not because of availability, but because the natural gas companies will make a fuss to not allow it. someone needs to decide that the natural gas companies are the ones that provide this hydrogen, so that they will still be involved and not bi*ch and complain, and actually let this innovative transition happen.



    fast forward a few years: IC engines as we know them now are almost completely phased out. hybrids are still used widely, but alternative fuel sources allow newer types of engines to be developed and new laws embrace this new cleaner technology. we still use the same roads and can do everything we always could with our vehicles...but now our pollution rates our down and we no longer have to fight wars in other countries just to take their gas so that we can power our monster SUVs.





    also, Scott. listen to this part very carefully: why would three of the major automotive companies in the world (honda, toyota, and GM) be putting so much money and effort into this technology if they thought it was still a "concept"?? this is the real thing. it's here to stay, and it is the future. get used to it.
  • Reply 34 of 58
    imaximax Posts: 43member
    Maybe someone can help me out. I think alternative fuel vehicles are a good idea, but I wonder about the power. I have nothing against SUV's. Hell, I've got two. Can the alternative cars (hydrogen, electric, etc.) tow a camper? Are they feasible for a family with 3+ kids? One of the reasons suv's are so popular is that they have a lot of power. Yes, this comes at the expense of fuel efficiency but a lot of people need the towing power or room that an suv offers. From what I've seen the offerings from Honda, Toyota and so forth are very small and very underpowered. This also brings up the issue of safety. These cars are very small and light. Not something I'd want to be in in a crash.
  • Reply 35 of 58
    chweave1chweave1 Posts: 164member
    Alliance, You're right about the fuel cell being the future, but not for a long time. YOu are not looking at the facts. First off, you said that natural gas would be a source for hydrogen. Yes, it could be, but it would be one of the most expensive sources. Currently, petroleum would be the cheapest source, and therefore, would be where we would get the hydrogen. Secondly, how does that help the enviroment? The reforming process to extract the hydrogen will pollute a significant amount. Also, there is much more coal, corn (renewable), and petroleum on the planet than there is natural gas, so natural gas is a dead end.



    Secondly, the Japanese did not invent fuel cells. The US has been using them for DECADES in other applications, as has everyone else in the world. The thing is, right now, the amount of hydrogen they use and therefore, in essence, the amount of gasoline/petroleum they use, is no better than current sedans and small cars sold in the US. That is why our supposedly stupid American auto companies are spending billions of dollars on, yes, scott was right, R & D to make them more fuel efficient, less costly, and to give them the infrastructure they need. The good thing is that eventually, it is predicted that Fuel cells will be much more fuel efficient, but right now, they are not. SO again, scott was right, and yes, it will be a while (10 to 15 yrs) before you see fuel cells giving any real contribution to the market.



    Hybrid Cars are the future for the short term, yes. Fuel cells are the ultimate answer long term, but they are not ready. They are too expensive, provide no real economic benefit currently, and have no infrastructure in place to support them. All of these problems take time, and will, with time, be addressed. You're getting excited about this technology, which is a good thing. But it's not ready yet.



    The good thing is that they(fuel cells) will eventually provide serious environmental and economic and political benefits thanks to the research being conducted by the American car companies that you are so quick to dismiss.
  • Reply 36 of 58
    [quote]Originally posted by iMax:

    <strong>Maybe someone can help me out. I think alternative fuel vehicles are a good idea, but I wonder about the power. I have nothing against SUV's. Hell, I've got two. Can the alternative cars (hydrogen, electric, etc.) tow a camper? Are they feasible for a family with 3+ kids? One of the reasons suv's are so popular is that they have a lot of power. Yes, this comes at the expense of fuel efficiency but a lot of people need the towing power or room that an suv offers. From what I've seen the offerings from Honda, Toyota and so forth are very small and very underpowered. This also brings up the issue of safety. These cars are very small and light. Not something I'd want to be in in a crash.</strong><hr></blockquote>





    honestly, i dont know. but hybrid SUVs are already being built (by ford or chevy? i forget). so...even if they arent successful in making a good electric SUV, count on a decent efficiency hybrid SUV within a couple years.
  • Reply 37 of 58
    [quote]Originally posted by chweave1:

    <strong> First off, you said that natural gas would be a source for hydrogen. </strong><hr></blockquote>



    i never said that.



    [quote]Originally posted by chweave1:

    <strong>The reforming process to extract the hydrogen will pollute a significant amount. Also, there is much more coal, corn (renewable), and petroleum on the planet than there is natural gas, so natural gas is a dead end.



    </strong><hr></blockquote>



    very true. but how can we perfect the process if we don't make the products that demand a better method? there is too much promise for this technology to ignore. also, i never said that hydrogen was the only way, just that natural gas needs to be replaced with a cleaner alternative source.



    [quote]Originally posted by chweave1:

    <strong>Secondly, the Japanese did not invent fuel cells. The US has been using them for DECADES in other applications, as has everyone else in the world. The thing is, right now, the amount of hydrogen they use and therefore, in essence, the amount of gasoline/petroleum they use, is no better than current sedans and small cars sold in the US. </strong><hr></blockquote>



    i never said that the japanese invented it, just that they embrace the technology and have used it to innovate the automotive technology further.



    [quote]Originally posted by chweave1:

    <strong> That is why our supposedly stupid American auto companies are spending billions of dollars on, yes, scott was right, R & D to make them more fuel efficient, less costly, and to give them the infrastructure they need. </strong><hr></blockquote>



    good. and i know that. and it's about damn time. however, it is no longer a concept as scott put it. they are working useable vehicles that will be made for consumer use soon enough. and i have already mentioned that GM has invested millions in the technology, something that they do very rarely in innovative use...which means that they believe this is gonna be the way of the future. you don't see the amount of investment that GM, honda and toyota have put into this unless it will definitely be used.



    [quote]Originally posted by chweave1:

    <strong> The good thing is that eventually, it is predicted that Fuel cells will be much more fuel efficient, but right now, they are not. SO again, scott was right, and yes, it will be a while (10 to 15 yrs) before you see fuel cells giving any real contribution to the market.

    </strong><hr></blockquote>





    what do you define as fuel efficient when they are completely different standards? but yes, i dont believe that fuel efficiency will be a problem, especially considering it is being heavily implemented by honda and toyota: the two leading companies in fuel efficiency.



    [quote]Originally posted by chweave1:

    <strong>Hybrid Cars are the future for the short term, yes. Fuel cells are the ultimate answer long term, but they are not ready. They are too expensive, provide no real economic benefit currently, and have no infrastructure in place to support them. All of these problems take time, and will, with time, be addressed. You're getting excited about this technology, which is a good thing. But it's not ready yet.

    </strong><hr></blockquote>



    i am thinking in the long term, which is exactly what most people are NOT doing. for me, the short term means anywhere from 3 to 15 years. the whole reason i brought up this technology was where the automotive world will be eventually. i never said it would be here tomorrow. but unless we realize the potential here and embrace it, then we will always be dependent on what we already have...which is a dead end. scott, you gotta think about how things will change, cause what we have now is too limiting. i still see the hybrid as the transition from our dependence on natural gas to a cleaner and more abundant source to power our vehicles. i love the hybrid, but it is a short-term solution.



    [quote]Originally posted by chweave1:

    <strong>The good thing is that they(fuel cells) will eventually provide serious environmental and economic and political benefits thanks to the research being conducted by the American car companies that you are so quick to dismiss.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    i never dismissed american companies. i just said that they are behind the game, as they usually are. however, they are making a good run at this and i'm glad that this country's goverment is starting to embrace what honda and toyota have to offer. once the technology becomes more readily available, we will know for certain just what is possible. what i can NOT stand, however, is when people dismiss the technology as not being significant without knowing anything about it.



    thank you chweave1 for actually providing some good thought behind your post. maybe scott can figure out that you can actually make an argument without calling the other party an idiot without any knowledge to back it up.
  • Reply 38 of 58
    scottscott Posts: 7,431member
    [quote]Originally posted by _ alliance _:

    <strong>...



    also, Scott. listen to this part very carefully: why would three of the major automotive companies in the world (honda, toyota, and GM) be putting so much money and effort into this technology if they thought it was still a "concept"?? this is the real thing. it's here to stay, and it is the future. get used to it.</strong><hr></blockquote>





    What a stupid statement. Every car starts out as a concept. So they think it'll pay off. Until it can they have to go through several itteration and a lot of technology needs to be developed. But remember, they spent a lot of money on electric cars. Where are they?



    I don't know why people think I'm anti fuel-cell. I'm not. I think they are great. We're just not going to be driving any for 10 year or more. So get used to it.
  • Reply 39 of 58
    outsideroutsider Posts: 6,008member
    [quote]Originally posted by iMax:

    <strong>Maybe someone can help me out. I think alternative fuel vehicles are a good idea, but I wonder about the power. I have nothing against SUV's. Hell, I've got two. Can the alternative cars (hydrogen, electric, etc.) tow a camper? Are they feasible for a family with 3+ kids? One of the reasons suv's are so popular is that they have a lot of power. Yes, this comes at the expense of fuel efficiency but a lot of people need the towing power or room that an suv offers. From what I've seen the offerings from Honda, Toyota and so forth are very small and very underpowered. This also brings up the issue of safety. These cars are very small and light. Not something I'd want to be in in a crash.</strong><hr></blockquote>

    An electric motor can deliver more than enough power for a SUV. That's not the problem. Hell diesel locomotives use IC engines to power generators that in turn power electric motors! It's just a matter of getting the amperage into the motor. And the higher the amperage that faster you drain a battery. Or the more a fuel cell needs to convert Hydrogen and Oxygen into electricity. For a truck or SUV you'll need a bigger motor (more suface area on the armature of the motor translate into more horsepower/torque) and that will suck more electricity, therefore an equal need for bigger hydrogen tanks. But hey, internal combustion engines need to be bigger for SUVs and they in turn use more fuel than smaller engines in cars. So it's all balanced out in the end. The electric cars out (namely GM EV1, Toyota RAV4/EV, etc.) are kind of anemic because they are battery based and for the sake of longer run times, they use weaker motors (137hp, 110lb-ft torque for the GM and 67hp, 200lb-ft(? I think) for the Toyota) but fuel cells should take care of the weakness of the motors. The electronic speed controller on those cars are probably a limiting factor too.
  • Reply 40 of 58
    outsideroutsider Posts: 6,008member
    I think this was mentioned before but here is an article about a new solar panel material that absorbs more of the suns rays than older materials for an almost 2 fold increase in efficiency!



    <a href="http://www.newscientist.com/hottopics/tech/article.jsp?id=99993145&amp;sub=Transport and Ener gy" target="_blank">http://www.newscientist.com/hottopics/tech/article.jsp?id=99993145&amp;sub=Transport and Ener gy</a>



    I read in another article that even on sunny days is has effiecny almost near what modern panels have on sunny days.
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