Secondly, are you honestly trying to argue that working in some crappy box of a building is the same as working in a well designed one??
I call straw man, or at least false dichotomy, maybe false correlation too. A box doesn't necessarily mean it's crappily engineered, a taurus in itself doesn't mean well-engineered.
Really? I thought they were embarrasingly fawning over him. The one guy whipped out his iPad 2. Geez. They should have some sense of dignity for the elected office they hold and the voters/taxpayers they are responsible too.
Now I think the building is gorgeous and a great Steve Jobs legacy. But that meeting was just painful to watch. I was embarrassed for them. I mean asking for free wifi (without even a specific context...a la Google in Mountain View) and an Apple Store, instead of questions about how the larger building will impact traffic (there was just a quick question about that) or more specific demands on the water, sewage and power grids. No concerns about say re-routing Tantau avenue (why or why didn't they?)?
And Apple just proposed building a natural gas plant down the street from a residential neighbourhood. Not a peep about that. Instead the councillors attacked another employer in town.
They didn't even ask why Apple didn't think of incorporating more solar power....I would've considered that an obvious question.
I only read the account when I posted that. It's been pointed out to me since that they were pretty milquetoast, and that's probably true (I've since seen the video).
Your points re exactly how they embarrassed themselves are well-taken. Then again, it's been my experience that very, very few elected officials are worth a damn. So while I agree with you there, I'm a whole lot less surprised than you are.
It's typical for our elected officials to be style over substance. In this case, they were in no position to say 'no' to Jobs (if Apple left, bye-bye Cupertino - not to mention bye-bye next election for that council). But their braying egos still demanded an outlet, hence the unwise and ill-informed remarks about WiFi.
Why were these 'WiFi' remarks spectacularly ill-informed, badly timed, and foolish? Because this is how Apple feels about free public WiFi (and the photo was posted today, on this very site):
I fully understand the engineering, but that doesn't mean it still isn't ironic.
(Anecdote: When I lived in Boston the temperature got to well-below freezing one day. I had to drive out in a car with what turned out to be poorly-mixed antifreeze to buy some dry ice for a project. On the way back the engine overheated.
What had happened was the coolant froze so it didn't circulate, so the only thing available for the now-warm engine was what had thawed in the cylinder head. That in turn heated up and sent the temperature gage into the red zone. Meanwhile, I was freezing inside the car since the heater didn't work, while the dry ice I was carrying was thawing (ok, sublimating). That's irony.)
I don't think that's the case - a perfect 'green' headquarters would probably look a lot different.
You conveniently forgot that i mentioned "of this size".
Also, I guess I'd have to agree that it might look different, but again, you have to take into consideration that this is Apple, and an SJ and Jonny Ives led company when it comes to aesthetics. It still has to be "beautiful, amazing" and dare I say, "magical".
I just finished watching the presentation, and yes, SJ is unfortunately struggling a bit. Pain-killers?
Last but not least, the presentation was rather short, and I'm sure we'll be in for a whole lot of awesome when those finished plans are (ever) made public, or at least their main "talking points". Get ready for SJ to throw some green-weed "Let-Us" show you how it's done, at assorted environmental groups that are ever on his case about something or other.
PS:... and Al Gore will make serious "hay" with this as well... not so sure I like that though.
At some point in the future solar generation won't be a luxury, or even a borderline economic exercise. It will be a necessity.
Again you appear to have mixed up aims and means. Solar power is a means, it is not an aim in itself. It is entirely possible that it will be a big part of our energy mix in 50 years time. It is a entirely possible it won't.
If we manage to achieve climate neutral energy generation without much solar then that's just as good as climate neutral generation that is based on vast solar furnace farms in deserts. Note I say climate neutral not carbon neutral - because GigaWatt level solar generation would certainly introduce additional radiative forcing, resulting in at least localized climate change. Applied widely across a city, PV would increase the Urban Heat Island effect.
Nothing is without impact, so stop getting narrow focused on solar and consider the big picture.
I fully understand the engineering, but that doesn't mean it still isn't ironic.
Only to those that don't know what's going on. At a fundamental level, it is using energy to move energy. In short, the opposite of irony, because when presented that way, you expect that to happen. In fact, probably every means of refrigeration requires the production heat somewhere, what's different in those cases is the apparent proximity, or the lack of it.
Applied widely across a city, PV would increase the Urban Heat Island effect.
PV converts some of the sunlight into electricity, rather than heat absorbed into the roofing material. Solar panels actually cool the area, although one would be hard-pressed to measure the difference. Also, as mentioned before, the panels shade the underlying roof, which will reduce the A/C load for the building itself.
Quote:
Nothing is without impact, so stop getting narrow focused on solar and consider the big picture.
Fine. If you can advocate a more economical renewable on-site generating source I'm all ears. In the meantime let's stick to what's been proven to work.
Only to those that don't know what's going on. At a fundamental level, it is using energy to move energy. In short, the opposite of irony, because when presented that way, you expect that to happen.
I think you're taking things way too literally.
Using waste heat to run the chillers to offset waste heat is indeed ironic.
I couldn't help but think of Apple's success during the past decade+ and how it is now coming to fruition.
Bravo on buying land and building a worthwhile piece of architecture that will be marveled at in the future. We live in an age where most people don't invest time or money into projects on a scale larger than our own lifetimes...instead we see convenience stores and strip malls.
Using waste heat to run the chillers to offset waste heat is indeed ironic.
How else are we to take engineering problems other than "literally"? Metaphorically? Poetically?
There's no "irony" in designing a system as efficiently as possible. Any more than it would be "ironic" to use treated waste water in a sewage treatment plant as part of treatment process.
PV converts some of the sunlight into electricity, rather than heat absorbed into the roofing material. Solar panels actually cool the area, although one would be hard-pressed to measure the difference. Also, as mentioned before, the panels shade the underlying roof, which will reduce the A/C load for the building itself.
Yikes. No they don't. Solar panels are dark, very dark, compared to a regular roof they will absorb a larger amount of solar radiation and reradiate it in the thermal bands. This is directly analogous to the
feedback effect that we see from loss of ice-cap and glaciers.
The amount of energy that they absorb is say 20% and will besides be converted into heat by resistive heating at some point in the circuit - but that's not relevant. It's the albedo that counts, as most of the other 4/5 th will become heat. Google 'photo voltaic radiative forcing' - I'm sure you'll find something but I really can't be bothered looking as I understand thermodynamics.
Is the radiative forcing worse than burning coal? Obviously not, but that doesn't meant it doesn't exist. Add in the considerable energy & fresh water cost of creating PV panels, the potential for increased domestic cooling requirements if you are increasing the heat levels in built up areas. PV Solar isn't magic, it has downsides beyond the exorbitant price/watt and they are glossed over because it's so depressing to think that there is no perfect solution.
Quote:
Fine. If you can advocate a more economical renewable on-site generating source I'm all ears. In the meantime let's stick to what's been proven to work.
Again you're presupposing the solution. It may not be optimal to generate renewable power on-site, it may be more sensible to build energy efficient buildings and use grid power or generate power on site from biofuels or hydrogen. It may be better to skip the overpriced PV panels and build sinkholes for heat dumping during the day. Primary generation may end up being nuclear fusion, fast breeder thorium cycle fission, tidal, offshore wind or natural gas with carbon sequestration or something else that I don't know about. There are lots of possible ways which we could reach a sustainable energy supply.
One thing to keep in mind is that architects don't design mechanical systems for buildings. That is left to building construction engineers, mechanical engineers, civil engineers and the like. They all work together to achieve the end result that fits within the esthetic and physical parameters set by the architect. There is no doubt that the energy performance of this building will be very high. Once buildings get above a certain size energy management becomes complex and very computerized. I work in a building that knows the outdoor temperature, the position of the sun, the season, the carbon dioxide and monoxide levels, humidity levels and my shoe size. It uses all this to control the HVAC and fresh air systems to the highest efficiency possible. Is is safe to assume the Apple torus will do all that and more.
Plus this beast is half the size of the Pentagon which is the biggest office building in the world. Wow.
It wasn't about developing or developed country. It wasn't being powerful or not. And it is not the law . First, It is about Apple. We all come here to talk in forum because we have something for Apple right? Whether that is hate or love.
If i am head of the council, I wouldn't even want to trigger a religious rebel if i say "No" to Apple. Of coz i have the right / power to do so. But saying no doesn't bring any good to me, my city, Apple, or fellow citizens. Of coz, that is nothing really wrong with its plan first.
Now that i watched the Video, it was more of a Joke rather then an actual questions. It was like i need to say something, now what should i say situation.
Now on a MUCH MORE IMPORTANT thing. No one mentions SJ looks much thinner then previous public appearance?
How else are we to take engineering problems other than "literally"? Metaphorically? Poetically?
There's no "irony" in designing a system as efficiently as possible. Any more than it would be "ironic" to use treated waste water in a sewage treatment plant as part of treatment process.
Poetically, there you go.
Having lived with Servel gas refrigerators for many years, I can testify that it is a beautiful thing to see that 4-inch long, one-inch thick flame making cold for your shelves of groceries inside the box. With no moving parts, and for 50 years without breakdown, except on very hot days if you don"t keep the fins clean. Better, put a little fan on top of the fins to circulate the air.
I have always believed that the same thing could be done with solar heat capture. Must be going on somewhere in these inventive times, eh?
Now on a MUCH MORE IMPORTANT thing. No one mentions SJ looks much thinner then previous public appearance?
It is NOT a much more important thing. Sorry, I'm on a campaign to quiet down this useless and inappropriate speculation about his appearance, and the consequent squeamish handwringing. It is not our business. And if you've ever had to deal with someone with health issues, the less negative you say to their face or around the family, the better. Talk up the positive, stop whimpering about the negative. We don't know what's going on!
Their face? Around the family? This is a public forum and people from Apple may be reading it.
Comments
and the Apple campus would smell lovely
You think weed smells lovely? It smells like someone set a skunk on fire. This is the only reason I am opposed to legalization - pot smells BAD.
Secondly, are you honestly trying to argue that working in some crappy box of a building is the same as working in a well designed one??
I call straw man, or at least false dichotomy, maybe false correlation too. A box doesn't necessarily mean it's crappily engineered, a taurus in itself doesn't mean well-engineered.
I just love the irony of that.
(Similar to natural gas-powered refrigerators.)
Not really an irony, just applied engineering.
You think weed smells lovely? It smells like someone set a skunk on fire. This is the only reason I am opposed to legalization - pot smells BAD.
It only smells bad until you actually smoke it...
It only smells bad until you actually smoke it...
Right. I've never done that so . . . it still stinks to me.
Really? I thought they were embarrasingly fawning over him. The one guy whipped out his iPad 2. Geez. They should have some sense of dignity for the elected office they hold and the voters/taxpayers they are responsible too.
Now I think the building is gorgeous and a great Steve Jobs legacy. But that meeting was just painful to watch. I was embarrassed for them. I mean asking for free wifi (without even a specific context...a la Google in Mountain View) and an Apple Store, instead of questions about how the larger building will impact traffic (there was just a quick question about that) or more specific demands on the water, sewage and power grids. No concerns about say re-routing Tantau avenue (why or why didn't they?)?
And Apple just proposed building a natural gas plant down the street from a residential neighbourhood. Not a peep about that. Instead the councillors attacked another employer in town.
They didn't even ask why Apple didn't think of incorporating more solar power....I would've considered that an obvious question.
I only read the account when I posted that. It's been pointed out to me since that they were pretty milquetoast, and that's probably true (I've since seen the video).
Your points re exactly how they embarrassed themselves are well-taken. Then again, it's been my experience that very, very few elected officials are worth a damn. So while I agree with you there, I'm a whole lot less surprised than you are.
It's typical for our elected officials to be style over substance. In this case, they were in no position to say 'no' to Jobs (if Apple left, bye-bye Cupertino - not to mention bye-bye next election for that council). But their braying egos still demanded an outlet, hence the unwise and ill-informed remarks about WiFi.
Why were these 'WiFi' remarks spectacularly ill-informed, badly timed, and foolish? Because this is how Apple feels about free public WiFi (and the photo was posted today, on this very site):
http://photos.appleinsidercdn.com/IMG_1269.jpg
Your public representatives at work, as it were.
I just love the irony of that.
Not really an irony, just applied engineering.
I fully understand the engineering, but that doesn't mean it still isn't ironic.
(Anecdote: When I lived in Boston the temperature got to well-below freezing one day. I had to drive out in a car with what turned out to be poorly-mixed antifreeze to buy some dry ice for a project. On the way back the engine overheated.
What had happened was the coolant froze so it didn't circulate, so the only thing available for the now-warm engine was what had thawed in the cylinder head. That in turn heated up and sent the temperature gage into the red zone. Meanwhile, I was freezing inside the car since the heater didn't work, while the dry ice I was carrying was thawing (ok, sublimating). That's irony.)
[IMG]htp://photos.appleinsidercdn.com/IMG_1269.jpg[/IMG]
Your public representatives at work, as it were.
Can you please re-scale that? It's filling two screen-fulls in my browser.
I don't think that's the case - a perfect 'green' headquarters would probably look a lot different.
You conveniently forgot that i mentioned "of this size".
Also, I guess I'd have to agree that it might look different, but again, you have to take into consideration that this is Apple, and an SJ and Jonny Ives led company when it comes to aesthetics. It still has to be "beautiful, amazing" and dare I say, "magical".
I just finished watching the presentation, and yes, SJ is unfortunately struggling a bit. Pain-killers?
Last but not least, the presentation was rather short, and I'm sure we'll be in for a whole lot of awesome when those finished plans are (ever) made public, or at least their main "talking points". Get ready for SJ to throw some green-weed "Let-Us" show you how it's done, at assorted environmental groups that are ever on his case about something or other.
PS:... and Al Gore will make serious "hay" with this as well... not so sure I like that though.
At some point in the future solar generation won't be a luxury, or even a borderline economic exercise. It will be a necessity.
Again you appear to have mixed up aims and means. Solar power is a means, it is not an aim in itself. It is entirely possible that it will be a big part of our energy mix in 50 years time. It is a entirely possible it won't.
If we manage to achieve climate neutral energy generation without much solar then that's just as good as climate neutral generation that is based on vast solar furnace farms in deserts. Note I say climate neutral not carbon neutral - because GigaWatt level solar generation would certainly introduce additional radiative forcing, resulting in at least localized climate change. Applied widely across a city, PV would increase the Urban Heat Island effect.
Nothing is without impact, so stop getting narrow focused on solar and consider the big picture.
I fully understand the engineering, but that doesn't mean it still isn't ironic.
Only to those that don't know what's going on. At a fundamental level, it is using energy to move energy. In short, the opposite of irony, because when presented that way, you expect that to happen. In fact, probably every means of refrigeration requires the production heat somewhere, what's different in those cases is the apparent proximity, or the lack of it.
Applied widely across a city, PV would increase the Urban Heat Island effect.
PV converts some of the sunlight into electricity, rather than heat absorbed into the roofing material. Solar panels actually cool the area, although one would be hard-pressed to measure the difference. Also, as mentioned before, the panels shade the underlying roof, which will reduce the A/C load for the building itself.
Nothing is without impact, so stop getting narrow focused on solar and consider the big picture.
Fine. If you can advocate a more economical renewable on-site generating source I'm all ears. In the meantime let's stick to what's been proven to work.
Only to those that don't know what's going on. At a fundamental level, it is using energy to move energy. In short, the opposite of irony, because when presented that way, you expect that to happen.
I think you're taking things way too literally.
Using waste heat to run the chillers to offset waste heat is indeed ironic.
Bravo on buying land and building a worthwhile piece of architecture that will be marveled at in the future. We live in an age where most people don't invest time or money into projects on a scale larger than our own lifetimes...instead we see convenience stores and strip malls.
I think you're taking things way too literally.
Using waste heat to run the chillers to offset waste heat is indeed ironic.
How else are we to take engineering problems other than "literally"? Metaphorically? Poetically?
There's no "irony" in designing a system as efficiently as possible. Any more than it would be "ironic" to use treated waste water in a sewage treatment plant as part of treatment process.
PV converts some of the sunlight into electricity, rather than heat absorbed into the roofing material. Solar panels actually cool the area, although one would be hard-pressed to measure the difference. Also, as mentioned before, the panels shade the underlying roof, which will reduce the A/C load for the building itself.
Yikes. No they don't. Solar panels are dark, very dark, compared to a regular roof they will absorb a larger amount of solar radiation and reradiate it in the thermal bands. This is directly analogous to the
feedback effect that we see from loss of ice-cap and glaciers.
The amount of energy that they absorb is say 20% and will besides be converted into heat by resistive heating at some point in the circuit - but that's not relevant. It's the albedo that counts, as most of the other 4/5 th will become heat. Google 'photo voltaic radiative forcing' - I'm sure you'll find something but I really can't be bothered looking as I understand thermodynamics.
Is the radiative forcing worse than burning coal? Obviously not, but that doesn't meant it doesn't exist. Add in the considerable energy & fresh water cost of creating PV panels, the potential for increased domestic cooling requirements if you are increasing the heat levels in built up areas. PV Solar isn't magic, it has downsides beyond the exorbitant price/watt and they are glossed over because it's so depressing to think that there is no perfect solution.
Fine. If you can advocate a more economical renewable on-site generating source I'm all ears. In the meantime let's stick to what's been proven to work.
Again you're presupposing the solution. It may not be optimal to generate renewable power on-site, it may be more sensible to build energy efficient buildings and use grid power or generate power on site from biofuels or hydrogen. It may be better to skip the overpriced PV panels and build sinkholes for heat dumping during the day. Primary generation may end up being nuclear fusion, fast breeder thorium cycle fission, tidal, offshore wind or natural gas with carbon sequestration or something else that I don't know about. There are lots of possible ways which we could reach a sustainable energy supply.
Plus this beast is half the size of the Pentagon which is the biggest office building in the world. Wow.
It wasn't about developing or developed country. It wasn't being powerful or not. And it is not the law . First, It is about Apple. We all come here to talk in forum because we have something for Apple right? Whether that is hate or love.
If i am head of the council, I wouldn't even want to trigger a religious rebel if i say "No" to Apple. Of coz i have the right / power to do so. But saying no doesn't bring any good to me, my city, Apple, or fellow citizens. Of coz, that is nothing really wrong with its plan first.
Now that i watched the Video, it was more of a Joke rather then an actual questions. It was like i need to say something, now what should i say situation.
Now on a MUCH MORE IMPORTANT thing. No one mentions SJ looks much thinner then previous public appearance?
How else are we to take engineering problems other than "literally"? Metaphorically? Poetically?
There's no "irony" in designing a system as efficiently as possible. Any more than it would be "ironic" to use treated waste water in a sewage treatment plant as part of treatment process.
Poetically, there you go.
Having lived with Servel gas refrigerators for many years, I can testify that it is a beautiful thing to see that 4-inch long, one-inch thick flame making cold for your shelves of groceries inside the box. With no moving parts, and for 50 years without breakdown, except on very hot days if you don"t keep the fins clean. Better, put a little fan on top of the fins to circulate the air.
I have always believed that the same thing could be done with solar heat capture. Must be going on somewhere in these inventive times, eh?
Now on a MUCH MORE IMPORTANT thing. No one mentions SJ looks much thinner then previous public appearance?
Likely because he doesn't.
Now on a MUCH MORE IMPORTANT thing. No one mentions SJ looks much thinner then previous public appearance?
It is NOT a much more important thing. Sorry, I'm on a campaign to quiet down this useless and inappropriate speculation about his appearance, and the consequent squeamish handwringing. It is not our business. And if you've ever had to deal with someone with health issues, the less negative you say to their face or around the family, the better. Talk up the positive, stop whimpering about the negative. We don't know what's going on!
Their face? Around the family? This is a public forum and people from Apple may be reading it.