<strong>as a non-american, i'm curious as to what generally people are actually mourning? </strong><hr></blockquote>
Personally, I've been watching the Shuttle launches (on TV, not IN person) since I can remember. This was a very strange throwback to my youth, when the first shuttle exploded after lift off.
What am I mourning? It's hard to explain. To me, it's bigger than the loss of life and the dollars don't even exist in the equation. If I can put my finger on it I'll let you know.
Of course not, but the privatization argument is not something that requires a PhD to fathom.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Maybe not a PhD, but some knowledge of NASA other than what you hear from the press.
I have a relative whom is employed by NASA at Johnson's Space Center based in Houston, Texas. The company he's in charge of works for NASA and is a PRIVATE company. Some sectors of NASA are privately owned at this moment and companies compete for the position at regular intervals when their contract expires. They have to give presentations along with other companies at the expiration of the contract and explain why they are the right for the job.
as a non-american, i'm curious as to what generally people are actually mourning?
is it the loss of life, the loss of billions(?) of dollars of tax payers money or is it a dent in the ego of a very patriotic country?
or all of the above?</strong><hr></blockquote>
As an American, I think I can speak for most of us when I say we mourn the loss of 6 American heroes and 1 Israeli hero. Money has not been brought up by anyone I know or the news. Mourning the loss of human life always comes before thinking about the loss of a multibillion dollar spacecraft. Americans always come together during trying times and crises we as a nation face...
<strong>As an American, I think I can speak for most of us when I say we morun the loss of 6 American heroes and 1 Israeli hero. Money has not been brought up by anyone I know or the news. Mourning the loss of human life always comes before thinking about the loss of a multibillion dollar spacecraft.</strong><hr></blockquote>
filmmaker2002, people die every day. it's part of living. your heroes fulfilled their part and sent back valuable research data from their mission. they perhaps did more service to humanity in the last week of their lives than most of us do in our entire lives but one shouldn't get caught up too fully in the media frenzy tugging at your heart strings.
this comes as a precursor to the hundreds if not thousands of people who will shortly be losing their lives fighting for what they believe in. it's a shame that on this occasion money (or oil at least) will be the true reason.
I am sorry if I am "giving into the media frenzy," but Laurel Clark is from my hometown and some of my friends knew her...so this hits a little closer to home than it does to you in whatever country you're from. Astronauts are some of the bravest and brightest people in the world, that is one reason we mourn their lost...I don't feel I need to give you anymore reasons other than the fact that they are human beings, 6 of them Americans. If you think all Americans care about is oil, that's your view and I can't do anything to change that...
<strong>I am sorry if I am "giving into the media frenzy," but Laurel Clark is from my hometown and some of my friends knew her...so this hits a little closer to home than it does to you in whatever country you're from. </strong><hr></blockquote>
well i guess it's all a bit too close to the bone for you and you are an exception.
[quote]<strong>
Astronauts are some of the bravest and brightest people in the world, that is one reason we mourn their lost...I don't feel I need to give you anymore reasons other than the fact that they are human beings, 6 of them Americans.</strong><hr></blockquote>
not sure you got my previous post. there was no disparaging to all 7 of them.
[quote]
<strong> If you think all Americans care about is oil, that's your view and I can't do anything to change that...</strong><hr></blockquote>
no i don't think that all americans care about is oil but i do think that the short guy living in the white house does... but that would be drifting waaay off topic. i extended an honest hand of care and curiosity. but i think i would have been best to just let you get on with it.
Understood...I'm no fan of Bush either. My first reaction everytime he opens his mouth is "Oh brother..." No offense taken, just having a hell of a day as you can understand...no hard feelings
<strong>Understood...I'm no fan of Bush either. My first reaction everytime he opens his mouth is "Oh brother..." No offense taken, just having a hell of a day as you can understand...no hard feelings</strong><hr></blockquote>
<strong>Understood...I'm no fan of Bush either. My first reaction everytime he opens his mouth is "Oh brother..." No offense taken, just having a hell of a day as you can understand...no hard feelings</strong><hr></blockquote>
cool [doh! just when i'm making an exit, safari snafus and double posts... now i'm really gone..]
My sister woke me up to tell me about it at 8:50, and I rushed to the TV and saw the home videos of Columbia breaking up. Went to the space center after that and tried to find out as much information as I could. My old division mates were there and others were being called in to provide aerodynamics and flight mechanics support. A buddy of mine was already working trying to figure where the crew cabin would have hit the ground. (He was pretty close.)
As far as I know, this is what happened:
1. Before 7:53am, everything was nominal.
2. ~7:53am, portside hydraulic sensors went offline.
3. ~7:56am, portside elevator and aileron temperature sensors went offline.
4. ~7:58am, portside landing gear pressure and temperature sensors went offline.
Telemetry data during this time indicated the vehicle was flying fine and in control. Data also indicated the orbiter had an early asymmetric boundary layer transition. That's about what I know. It would be stupid for me to speculate on what happened, so I won't.
I rotated out of the JSC aerodynamcs group last December to work in the biomedical hardware division for awhile, so I won't be privy to exacting details. Anyways, I went into my old division to see if I could help - everyone was shell shocked - but I really wasn't much help since I wasn't a CFD or trajectory person and went home in the afternoon. Plans and people are already in work to figure out how it happened.
In regard to the space station, I guess the only fortunate thing is that Columbia was never manifested to go to station (too heavy), so it doesn't really effect station missions since the other orbiters were used for them. Whether there will be another shuttle mission soon is anyone's guess. It depends on what happened and what the fix is.
In regard to new launch vehicles, especially, station payload class vehicles, it will take 5+ years to create something different if we were to go balls out. I've wanted the shuttle program to be cancelled for a long time because it was way too expensive, but possibly having it happen this way is too surreal and traumitizing. Not even sure if I'll be doing the same anymore.
...I think privatization would be a good thing. That doesn't mean the govt should stop funding space research. But I think private industry should be the one to impliment it. Competition would make for better quality. And presumably less waste of resources. ...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Right on VanDeWalls! Enron, WorldCom, and United Air Lines come to mind as good examples. Maybe the talented and efficient executives, or former executives, of these corporations could be put in charge. Or perhaps NASA could be privatized and merge with AOL Time Warner.
Personally, I think that NASA has done an excellent job over the years in a very difficult and risky area. I think that it is crass and inaccurate to imply that this accident, or difficulties with space travel in general, are the product of a lack of private sector involvement.
And, incidentally, NASA does contract out a great deal of work to the private sector, although not always with good results - think O-Rings.
<strong>In regard to the space station, I guess the only fortunate thing is that Columbia was never manifested to go to station (too heavy), so it doesn't really effect station missions since the other orbiters were used for them. Whether there will be another shuttle mission soon is anyone's guess. It depends on what happened and what the fix is.
In regard to new launch vehicles, especially, station payload class vehicles, it will take 5+ years to create something different if we were to go balls out. I've wanted the shuttle program to be cancelled for a long time because it was way too expensive, but possibly having it happen this way is too surreal and traumitizing. Not even sure if I'll be doing the same anymore.</strong><hr></blockquote>
In addition to being heavier, Columbia did not have a Canada Arm, correct?
5+ years? I was thinking it would take much, much longer than that. How far along was the X-33? That project seemed to last forever before it was canned, and it didn't at all look ready for anything...
That's why I was wondering about building another shuttle. Realistically it'll be beyond a decade before anything under development is put in service to replace the shuttle fleet.
In addition to being heavier, Columbia did not have a Canada Arm, correct?</strong>
Columbia can be outfitted with an arm, it just wasn't this flight.
<strong>5+ years? I was thinking it would take much, much longer than that.</strong>
That's balls out. It would most likely involve man-rating the Delta 4 or Atlas 5 HLV vehicles, designing a capsule return system, and a throw-away payload module.
<strong>How far along was the X-33? That project seemed to last forever before it was canned, and it didn't at all look ready for anything...</strong>
X-33 had 5 years of development. It never recovered from its composite tanks failing, and will take a very long time for it to get to a test flight.
<strong>That's why I was wondering about building another shuttle. Realistically it'll be beyond a decade before anything under development is put in service to replace the shuttle fleet.</strong>
Anything with wings will take awhile. Capsules can have shorter development. The Atlas V and Delta IV HLV can get us 90% of the way there. But I expect the shuttles will be in use until at least the space station is complete.
I woke this morning to my clock radio set on the radio. As it woke me I heard talk of falling pieces in the north texas area and it was a little later I found this was about the shuttle. It was so very sad for me to find out of this. I had a drive today to meet my customer of a just sold home I completed and on my travels on the Texas highways I saw on the Traffic allert signs put in place by the the Texas DOT (Department of Transportation) the message "Call Police and Report Shuttle Debre"
It was a really sad and strange day
May God give peace and comfort to the friends and family of those lost in this very sad accident.
I am now watching pre-recorded footage of talking to the crew before this accident. It is really very sad to watch them speak to us on earth and now they are gone.
God Bless us all..
My Prayers go out to all.
Fellowship
edit: I just watched the streaming video of the speech President Bush gave today hosted on the BBC website and watching the video brought me to tears.
Right on VanDeWalls! Enron, WorldCom, and United Air Lines come to mind as good examples. Maybe the talented and efficient executives, or former executives, of these corporations could be put in charge. Or perhaps NASA could be privatized and merge with AOL Time Warner.
Personally, I think that NASA has done an excellent job over the years in a very difficult and risky area. I think that it is crass and inaccurate to imply that this accident, or difficulties with space travel in general, are the product of a lack of private sector involvement.
And, incidentally, NASA does contract out a great deal of work to the private sector, although not always with good results - think O-Rings.
I was in no way implying that lack of private sector involment killed these people. And your examples are hardly good ones...as none of these are aerospace companies.
Privatization is hardly a cure-all. Do we need NASA? Of course! We need it to direct and consolidate research in this field. I was simply offering an opinion in regards with how it might do this more efficiently. Please do not put words in my mouth.
Some of the very best of the human race. The vehicle was the product of some of the best of the human race. They are now lost to us.
It all goes to one's values, I suppose. If you understand and cherish the best within us, then you will feel an anguish beyond words. If you don't, then I guess that you will be left outside looking at us. Far easier too than conducting an internal examination as to why one doesn't feel complete anguish at the loss of all of this greatness.
The American space program is greatness. The people who make our space program go are great, are better than the majority of the people riding this ball around the sun.
Having expressed my admiration for NASA, privatization of space access (in parallel with NASA's efforts) would get us Out There faster than we have been going.
There are tons of money to be made throughout the solar system. 250 years ago, there were some fishing villages on the eastern seaboard of North America. Thanks to Capitalism, Look At Us Now. Because of Capitalism, 250 years from now, the wilderness whizing above our heads will be civilized.
This is truly a sad day as many have said. It really looks now like it was the loose chunk of foam hitting the tiles at launch that caused this problem.
None of us can really know what it was like for those people in their last moments. I only hope those moments were not long. That was the thing about Challenger. They found the cockpit mostly intact and there's always been speculation that they might have been alive even after the explosion.
About the space program. It must go on. Imagine what our world would be like if we had stopped flying after the first couple of plane crashes.
I remember Apollo 13. It was all over the news. All day. Everyone held their breath for them for days. But they came back.
I also remember Challenger. I was getting ready for work that day. It was difficult to look away from the TV to get ready. I remember thinking how strange and surreal it seemed that this had acctually happened to one of our space craft. We hadn't had any deaths since the Apollo fire on the pad a long time ago.
I truly believe our future is closely tied to manned space exploration and to honour the lives of these men and women we must go on. I think we can be fairly sure it's what they would want.
I think Nasa should get more funding for modern manned space craft design. These shuttles were designed in the 70's. Even if they are designed to fly for a much longer time I think it's time we started replacing them with something more modern.
It's really too bad that as far as government projects go Nasa lives on a shoe string budget by comparison. Some figures from a few years ago : The Welfare Dept. spends the yearly budget of Nasa every eight days. Americans spend three times their budget on cigarettes every year.
I imagine it's worse now.
But it's always sad when something like this happens in space exploration. Thank god it doesn't happen that often.
Comments
as a non-american, i'm curious as to what generally people are actually mourning?
is it the loss of life, the loss of billions(?) of dollars of tax payers money or is it a dent in the ego of a very patriotic country?
or all of the above?
<strong>as a non-american, i'm curious as to what generally people are actually mourning? </strong><hr></blockquote>
Personally, I've been watching the Shuttle launches (on TV, not IN person) since I can remember. This was a very strange throwback to my youth, when the first shuttle exploded after lift off.
What am I mourning? It's hard to explain. To me, it's bigger than the loss of life and the dollars don't even exist in the equation. If I can put my finger on it I'll let you know.
<strong>
Of course not, but the privatization argument is not something that requires a PhD to fathom.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Maybe not a PhD, but some knowledge of NASA other than what you hear from the press.
I have a relative whom is employed by NASA at Johnson's Space Center based in Houston, Texas. The company he's in charge of works for NASA and is a PRIVATE company. Some sectors of NASA are privately owned at this moment and companies compete for the position at regular intervals when their contract expires. They have to give presentations along with other companies at the expiration of the contract and explain why they are the right for the job.
<strong>truly sad news
as a non-american, i'm curious as to what generally people are actually mourning?
is it the loss of life, the loss of billions(?) of dollars of tax payers money or is it a dent in the ego of a very patriotic country?
or all of the above?</strong><hr></blockquote>
As an American, I think I can speak for most of us when I say we mourn the loss of 6 American heroes and 1 Israeli hero. Money has not been brought up by anyone I know or the news. Mourning the loss of human life always comes before thinking about the loss of a multibillion dollar spacecraft. Americans always come together during trying times and crises we as a nation face...
[ 02-01-2003: Message edited by: filmmaker2002 ]</p>
<strong>As an American, I think I can speak for most of us when I say we morun the loss of 6 American heroes and 1 Israeli hero. Money has not been brought up by anyone I know or the news. Mourning the loss of human life always comes before thinking about the loss of a multibillion dollar spacecraft.</strong><hr></blockquote>
filmmaker2002, people die every day. it's part of living. your heroes fulfilled their part and sent back valuable research data from their mission. they perhaps did more service to humanity in the last week of their lives than most of us do in our entire lives but one shouldn't get caught up too fully in the media frenzy tugging at your heart strings.
this comes as a precursor to the hundreds if not thousands of people who will shortly be losing their lives fighting for what they believe in. it's a shame that on this occasion money (or oil at least) will be the true reason.
[ 02-01-2003: Message edited by: filmmaker2002 ]</p>
<strong>
...it's a shame that on this occasion money (or oil at least) will be the true reason.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Please don't assume.
---
Tis as sad day indeed.
<strong>I am sorry if I am "giving into the media frenzy," but Laurel Clark is from my hometown and some of my friends knew her...so this hits a little closer to home than it does to you in whatever country you're from. </strong><hr></blockquote>
well i guess it's all a bit too close to the bone for you and you are an exception.
[quote]<strong>
Astronauts are some of the bravest and brightest people in the world, that is one reason we mourn their lost...I don't feel I need to give you anymore reasons other than the fact that they are human beings, 6 of them Americans.</strong><hr></blockquote>
not sure you got my previous post. there was no disparaging to all 7 of them.
[quote]
<strong> If you think all Americans care about is oil, that's your view and I can't do anything to change that...</strong><hr></blockquote>
no i don't think that all americans care about is oil but i do think that the short guy living in the white house does... but that would be drifting waaay off topic. i extended an honest hand of care and curiosity. but i think i would have been best to just let you get on with it.
apologies if i offended anyone.
<strong>Understood...I'm no fan of Bush either. My first reaction everytime he opens his mouth is "Oh brother..." No offense taken, just having a hell of a day as you can understand...no hard feelings</strong><hr></blockquote>
cool
<strong>Understood...I'm no fan of Bush either. My first reaction everytime he opens his mouth is "Oh brother..." No offense taken, just having a hell of a day as you can understand...no hard feelings</strong><hr></blockquote>
cool [doh! just when i'm making an exit, safari snafus and double posts... now i'm really gone..]
[ 02-01-2003: Message edited by: lungaretta ]</p>
My sister woke me up to tell me about it at 8:50, and I rushed to the TV and saw the home videos of Columbia breaking up. Went to the space center after that and tried to find out as much information as I could. My old division mates were there and others were being called in to provide aerodynamics and flight mechanics support. A buddy of mine was already working trying to figure where the crew cabin would have hit the ground. (He was pretty close.)
As far as I know, this is what happened:
1. Before 7:53am, everything was nominal.
2. ~7:53am, portside hydraulic sensors went offline.
3. ~7:56am, portside elevator and aileron temperature sensors went offline.
4. ~7:58am, portside landing gear pressure and temperature sensors went offline.
5. ~8:00am, crew confirms portside landing gear sensor problems.
6. ~8:00am, all communication went offline.
Telemetry data during this time indicated the vehicle was flying fine and in control. Data also indicated the orbiter had an early asymmetric boundary layer transition. That's about what I know. It would be stupid for me to speculate on what happened, so I won't.
I rotated out of the JSC aerodynamcs group last December to work in the biomedical hardware division for awhile, so I won't be privy to exacting details. Anyways, I went into my old division to see if I could help - everyone was shell shocked - but I really wasn't much help since I wasn't a CFD or trajectory person and went home in the afternoon. Plans and people are already in work to figure out how it happened.
In regard to the space station, I guess the only fortunate thing is that Columbia was never manifested to go to station (too heavy), so it doesn't really effect station missions since the other orbiters were used for them. Whether there will be another shuttle mission soon is anyone's guess. It depends on what happened and what the fix is.
In regard to new launch vehicles, especially, station payload class vehicles, it will take 5+ years to create something different if we were to go balls out. I've wanted the shuttle program to be cancelled for a long time because it was way too expensive, but possibly having it happen this way is too surreal and traumitizing. Not even sure if I'll be doing the same anymore.
<strong>
...I think privatization would be a good thing. That doesn't mean the govt should stop funding space research. But I think private industry should be the one to impliment it. Competition would make for better quality. And presumably less waste of resources. ...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Right on VanDeWalls! Enron, WorldCom, and United Air Lines come to mind as good examples. Maybe the talented and efficient executives, or former executives, of these corporations could be put in charge. Or perhaps NASA could be privatized and merge with AOL Time Warner.
Personally, I think that NASA has done an excellent job over the years in a very difficult and risky area. I think that it is crass and inaccurate to imply that this accident, or difficulties with space travel in general, are the product of a lack of private sector involvement.
And, incidentally, NASA does contract out a great deal of work to the private sector, although not always with good results - think O-Rings.
[ 02-01-2003: Message edited by: Chinney ]</p>
<strong>In regard to the space station, I guess the only fortunate thing is that Columbia was never manifested to go to station (too heavy), so it doesn't really effect station missions since the other orbiters were used for them. Whether there will be another shuttle mission soon is anyone's guess. It depends on what happened and what the fix is.
In regard to new launch vehicles, especially, station payload class vehicles, it will take 5+ years to create something different if we were to go balls out. I've wanted the shuttle program to be cancelled for a long time because it was way too expensive, but possibly having it happen this way is too surreal and traumitizing. Not even sure if I'll be doing the same anymore.</strong><hr></blockquote>
In addition to being heavier, Columbia did not have a Canada Arm, correct?
5+ years? I was thinking it would take much, much longer than that. How far along was the X-33? That project seemed to last forever before it was canned, and it didn't at all look ready for anything...
That's why I was wondering about building another shuttle. Realistically it'll be beyond a decade before anything under development is put in service to replace the shuttle fleet.
<strong>truly sad news
as a non-american, i'm curious as to what generally people are actually mourning?
is it the loss of life, the loss of billions(?) of dollars of tax payers money or is it a dent in the ego of a very patriotic country?
or all of the above?</strong><hr></blockquote>
money and "american ego" did not cross my mind until you mentioned it.
the loss of the amazing individuals, their families, etc was enough for me to mourn and show my respect.
In addition to being heavier, Columbia did not have a Canada Arm, correct?</strong>
Columbia can be outfitted with an arm, it just wasn't this flight.
<strong>5+ years? I was thinking it would take much, much longer than that.</strong>
That's balls out. It would most likely involve man-rating the Delta 4 or Atlas 5 HLV vehicles, designing a capsule return system, and a throw-away payload module.
<strong>How far along was the X-33? That project seemed to last forever before it was canned, and it didn't at all look ready for anything...</strong>
X-33 had 5 years of development. It never recovered from its composite tanks failing, and will take a very long time for it to get to a test flight.
<strong>That's why I was wondering about building another shuttle. Realistically it'll be beyond a decade before anything under development is put in service to replace the shuttle fleet.</strong>
Anything with wings will take awhile. Capsules can have shorter development. The Atlas V and Delta IV HLV can get us 90% of the way there. But I expect the shuttles will be in use until at least the space station is complete.
I woke this morning to my clock radio set on the radio. As it woke me I heard talk of falling pieces in the north texas area and it was a little later I found this was about the shuttle. It was so very sad for me to find out of this.
It was a really sad and strange day
May God give peace and comfort to the friends and family of those lost in this very sad accident.
I am now watching pre-recorded footage of talking to the crew before this accident. It is really very sad to watch them speak to us on earth and now they are gone.
God Bless us all..
My Prayers go out to all.
Fellowship
edit: I just watched the streaming video of the speech President Bush gave today hosted on the BBC website and watching the video brought me to tears.
[ 02-01-2003: Message edited by: FellowshipChurch iBook ]</p>
<strong>
Right on VanDeWalls! Enron, WorldCom, and United Air Lines come to mind as good examples. Maybe the talented and efficient executives, or former executives, of these corporations could be put in charge. Or perhaps NASA could be privatized and merge with AOL Time Warner.
Personally, I think that NASA has done an excellent job over the years in a very difficult and risky area. I think that it is crass and inaccurate to imply that this accident, or difficulties with space travel in general, are the product of a lack of private sector involvement.
And, incidentally, NASA does contract out a great deal of work to the private sector, although not always with good results - think O-Rings.
[ 02-01-2003: Message edited by: Chinney ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
I was in no way implying that lack of private sector involment killed these people. And your examples are hardly good ones...as none of these are aerospace companies.
Privatization is hardly a cure-all. Do we need NASA? Of course! We need it to direct and consolidate research in this field. I was simply offering an opinion in regards with how it might do this more efficiently. Please do not put words in my mouth.
A doctor and a skilled pilot...
A doctor on a submarine...
Some of the very best of the human race. The vehicle was the product of some of the best of the human race. They are now lost to us.
It all goes to one's values, I suppose. If you understand and cherish the best within us, then you will feel an anguish beyond words. If you don't, then I guess that you will be left outside looking at us. Far easier too than conducting an internal examination as to why one doesn't feel complete anguish at the loss of all of this greatness.
The American space program is greatness. The people who make our space program go are great, are better than the majority of the people riding this ball around the sun.
Having expressed my admiration for NASA, privatization of space access (in parallel with NASA's efforts) would get us Out There faster than we have been going.
There are tons of money to be made throughout the solar system. 250 years ago, there were some fishing villages on the eastern seaboard of North America. Thanks to Capitalism, Look At Us Now. Because of Capitalism, 250 years from now, the wilderness whizing above our heads will be civilized.
Aries 1B
None of us can really know what it was like for those people in their last moments. I only hope those moments were not long. That was the thing about Challenger. They found the cockpit mostly intact and there's always been speculation that they might have been alive even after the explosion.
About the space program. It must go on. Imagine what our world would be like if we had stopped flying after the first couple of plane crashes.
I remember Apollo 13. It was all over the news. All day. Everyone held their breath for them for days. But they came back.
I also remember Challenger. I was getting ready for work that day. It was difficult to look away from the TV to get ready. I remember thinking how strange and surreal it seemed that this had acctually happened to one of our space craft. We hadn't had any deaths since the Apollo fire on the pad a long time ago.
I truly believe our future is closely tied to manned space exploration and to honour the lives of these men and women we must go on. I think we can be fairly sure it's what they would want.
I think Nasa should get more funding for modern manned space craft design. These shuttles were designed in the 70's. Even if they are designed to fly for a much longer time I think it's time we started replacing them with something more modern.
It's really too bad that as far as government projects go Nasa lives on a shoe string budget by comparison. Some figures from a few years ago : The Welfare Dept. spends the yearly budget of Nasa every eight days. Americans spend three times their budget on cigarettes every year.
I imagine it's worse now.
But it's always sad when something like this happens in space exploration. Thank god it doesn't happen that often.
[ 02-02-2003: Message edited by: jimmac ]</p>