ao (and the forum formerly known as Fireside Chat) have pretty significantly changed my view on a couple of issues. i used to have zero respect for anyone who believed in god, and now, though i still don't believe in him/her/them, i respect the idea there.
it's really hard, i thnk, to try and change someone else's view though. i tried a couple of times, citing what seemed like some pretty strong, incontravertable evidence, and yet the damn nazis found fault with it. they said, 'xyz', and i retort with 'well this source says that xyz aint really an issue', and theyd respond with 'well, i still think it is'. goddammit. its phun tho.
<strong>I don't completely understand your post, der Kopf. You sound like you're making a good point... but I'm still </strong><hr></blockquote>
It's like, I read that and got all warm and fuzzy. 't Is not often that I read something at AI that I agree with so thoroughly (because I have felt it myself). Yet, to tone down the fuzziness, I decided to leave it at what I wrote. I was gonna go on about starry skies and open fires and whatnot. Let it suffice to say that I agreed with what you wrote. (no sarcasm here).
it's really hard, i thnk, to try and change someone else's view though. i tried a couple of times, citing what seemed like some pretty strong, incontravertable evidence, and yet the damn nazis found fault with it. </strong><hr></blockquote>
But thats the strange thing about this place. We all started coming here for Apple related stuff I guess and later discovered AO and started posting here because we like to argue. Therefore AO should be different than normal political forums on the net in at least two ways: We didn´t come here as representatives for certain political views (but as Mac users) and we can be pretty sure that very few find it worth lurking here.
So we don´t have any audience to impress or any party line to defend. There is actually only two strategies logical here: Either to shake your head and say "they are all crazy" or to head into the discussions with the aim to test your arguments or to present it in the hope of changing soemone elses minds.
So I really don´t understand why there is so much "going after the man instead of the ball" here. That strategy only have an effect on a third party standing outside the debate which I doubt very much we have here.
So yes: If anywhere the "unforced force of a better arguement" should work here IMO.
If anyone have an opinion on this please feel free to post because I´m really interested in this at the moment.
[ 02-07-2003: Message edited by: Anders the White ]</p>
It's made me feel better about the choices I made in life. Like staying away from bad influences, such as drugs, until I was sure that I would not be harmed by them.
to be entirely truthfull, AO in AI has demonstrated that much of white America is just as racist as ever. The comments that I have read here are some of the most vicous things I have read. This is not to say that the subject matter should not have been discussed but rather the (assumed) honest opinions here are rather scary and most not much different from those of Klan people. The saddest thing about this is that many of the same people making blatantly white supremist statments (couched in Pro-American language) apparently have black or other so called "minority" friends who either are:
a) too stupid to know what they are hearing.
b) know what they're hearing and can't be bothered trying to argue (believe me many so called "minority friends" fall into this category)
c) or for some reason that is linked with "a" actually believe what they hear.
Sadly this reflects on the Educational system of the US. where history is skewed and edited like a video and model minorities rule.
Perhaps the most alarming thing that I read was that some of the people in here are teachers in, I assume, public schools.
Am I saying this to make people here change? No, I personally could care less. I just decided to answer the question and let the chips fall where they may because i'm sure that those who this commentary point to, will be sure to label me 'anti-american." perhaps "anti-white" or some other popular label that allows them to remain of the mindset that they have.
<strong>ao (and the forum formerly known as Fireside Chat) have pretty significantly changed my view on a couple of issues. i used to have zero respect for anyone who believed in god, and now, though i still don't believe in him/her/them, i respect the idea there.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
And you did this based on the evidence supported here? Oh my -- one hint of a cogent argument might instantly transform you into a zealot. Seldom have I seen a better argument for atheism than the general disposition of the God-heads in this place, and I believe in a god! (out of a sense of philosophical responsibility, and "faith" which should go unspoken, though I don't ever mean what the devout mean when they say faith, and have to keep reminding myself and everyone else because I absolutely do not want to be confused with them when we tread on what seems like similar ground)
PS, posting has noticeably degraded my writing to the point where I no longer heed grammatical convention or linear discourse. I feel very fragmentary and have to fix myself into a good writing mood when it's time to do some real work.
And you did this based on the evidence supported here? Oh my -- one hint of a cogent argument might instantly transform you into a zealot. Seldom have I seen a better argument for atheism than the general disposition of the God-heads in this place, and I believe in a god! (out of a sense of philosophical responsibility, and "faith" which should go unspoken, though I don't ever mean what the devout mean when they say faith, and have to keep reminding myself and everyone else because I absolutely do not want to be confused with them when we tread on what seems like similar ground)
.</strong><hr></blockquote>Perhaps he is reffering to people like yourself, who would ordinarily be labeled as athiests by the average religious person and yet who call themselves theists of sorts
there have been some very intelligent discussions about religion on this site . . . between all the thumpings
I guess for me it has simply proven that there is very little reasoning behind many of the views of the left politically. You can show them clear examples of flawed reasoning, flawed use of the policy, facts, examples, analogies, you name it and it all comes down to what they think is correct and what they believe about it.
actually, i dont know if it was aparticular argument that brought that respect to me, or just thinking that occurred to myself after reading some of the filth emmitted from this place.
i have learned that there are reasons behind all my views and i love every single one of them....the reasons and the views....g
ai has also affected my views in that i now know that many canadians have not only computers, but american computers like apple and dell...i wasn't even sure canada had electricity and running water before this...i am impressed.... <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
<strong>the main thing that I have learned is that Nick has foot thick blinders on</strong><hr></blockquote>
Would you have felt better if I didn't say leftist and phrased it this way?
[quote]after arguing on these boards I have come to see just how right he was: peoople's opinions are motivated not so much by logic or reason as they are by a kind of veneer of style:
or better, an imagined style,
or even better: an Image
an image of who they are when they take a position
an image that includes the image of imaginary peers who also support that fictitious image that they represent with their opinions
Forget reason and critical thought, when it comes up against that IMAGE of the adversary, the CORRECT thought. critique flies out the window
and you might as well shrug your shoulders and admit what my father always said: "you can not change someone's point of view"
I do believe however that therre is the possibitlity of widdling down that image:
I for one have openned my perspecctives a little towards recognizing some valid points in the camps of MY ENEMIES
But I have also come to see how profoundly wrong they are <hr></blockquote>
I guess for me it has simply proven that there is very little reasoning behind many of the views of the right politically. You can show them clear examples of flawed reasoning, flawed use of the policy, facts, examples, analogies, you name it and it all comes down to what they think is correct and what they believe about it.
or
I guess for me it has simply proven that there is very little reasoning behind many of the views of religious people. You can show them clear examples of flawed reasoning, flawed use of the policy, facts, examples, analogies, you name it and it all comes down to what they think is correct and what they believe about it.
right, left, religious, athesist....no difference here on the boards....i think it is almost impossible to change someones mind over the net...for true discussion and arguement you need face to face contact...you can respect and understand a face much easier than a screen...g
<strong>nah...it should have been worded like this:
I guess for me it has simply proven that there is very little reasoning behind many of the views of the right politically. You can show them clear examples of flawed reasoning, flawed use of the policy, facts, examples, analogies, you name it and it all comes down to what they think is correct and what they believe about it.
or
I guess for me it has simply proven that there is very little reasoning behind many of the views of religious people. You can show them clear examples of flawed reasoning, flawed use of the policy, facts, examples, analogies, you name it and it all comes down to what they think is correct and what they believe about it.
right, left, religious, athesist....no difference here on the boards....i think it is almost impossible to change someones mind over the net...for true discussion and arguement you need face to face contact...you can respect and understand a face much easier than a screen...g</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well that is why I was laughing, but you actually made the point better. He says people won't change their opinions. I say they won't change their opinions. I have blinders on.
Comments
it's really hard, i thnk, to try and change someone else's view though. i tried a couple of times, citing what seemed like some pretty strong, incontravertable evidence, and yet the damn nazis found fault with it. they said, 'xyz', and i retort with 'well this source says that xyz aint really an issue', and theyd respond with 'well, i still think it is'. goddammit. its phun tho.
<strong>I don't completely understand your post, der Kopf.
It's like, I read that and got all warm and fuzzy. 't Is not often that I read something at AI that I agree with so thoroughly (because I have felt it myself). Yet, to tone down the fuzziness, I decided to leave it at what I wrote. I was gonna go on about starry skies and open fires and whatnot. Let it suffice to say that I agreed with what you wrote. (no sarcasm here).
<strong>
it's really hard, i thnk, to try and change someone else's view though. i tried a couple of times, citing what seemed like some pretty strong, incontravertable evidence, and yet the damn nazis found fault with it. </strong><hr></blockquote>
But thats the strange thing about this place. We all started coming here for Apple related stuff I guess and later discovered AO and started posting here because we like to argue. Therefore AO should be different than normal political forums on the net in at least two ways: We didn´t come here as representatives for certain political views (but as Mac users) and we can be pretty sure that very few find it worth lurking here.
So we don´t have any audience to impress or any party line to defend. There is actually only two strategies logical here: Either to shake your head and say "they are all crazy" or to head into the discussions with the aim to test your arguments or to present it in the hope of changing soemone elses minds.
So I really don´t understand why there is so much "going after the man instead of the ball" here. That strategy only have an effect on a third party standing outside the debate which I doubt very much we have here.
So yes: If anywhere the "unforced force of a better arguement" should work here IMO.
If anyone have an opinion on this please feel free to post because I´m really interested in this at the moment.
[ 02-07-2003: Message edited by: Anders the White ]</p>
Now I understand you.
I loooove tea. black tea. with a lot of milk and sugar. 1 liter, 2 liter, doesn't matter.
warm & fuzzy. yeah.
[ 02-07-2003: Message edited by: Defiant ]</p>
Others, I see, have not been so lucky
a) too stupid to know what they are hearing.
b) know what they're hearing and can't be bothered trying to argue (believe me many so called "minority friends" fall into this category)
c) or for some reason that is linked with "a" actually believe what they hear.
Sadly this reflects on the Educational system of the US. where history is skewed and edited like a video and model minorities rule.
Perhaps the most alarming thing that I read was that some of the people in here are teachers in, I assume, public schools.
Am I saying this to make people here change? No, I personally could care less. I just decided to answer the question and let the chips fall where they may because i'm sure that those who this commentary point to, will be sure to label me 'anti-american." perhaps "anti-white" or some other popular label that allows them to remain of the mindset that they have.
<strong>ao (and the forum formerly known as Fireside Chat) have pretty significantly changed my view on a couple of issues. i used to have zero respect for anyone who believed in god, and now, though i still don't believe in him/her/them, i respect the idea there.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
And you did this based on the evidence supported here? Oh my -- one hint of a cogent argument might instantly transform you into a zealot. Seldom have I seen a better argument for atheism than the general disposition of the God-heads in this place, and I believe in a god! (out of a sense of philosophical responsibility, and "faith" which should go unspoken, though I don't ever mean what the devout mean when they say faith, and have to keep reminding myself and everyone else because I absolutely do not want to be confused with them when we tread on what seems like similar ground)
PS, posting has noticeably degraded my writing to the point where I no longer heed grammatical convention or linear discourse. I feel very fragmentary and have to fix myself into a good writing mood when it's time to do some real work.
<strong> ... the (assumed) honest opinions ... </strong><hr></blockquote>
That's an awful mistake in judgement.
<strong>
And you did this based on the evidence supported here? Oh my -- one hint of a cogent argument might instantly transform you into a zealot. Seldom have I seen a better argument for atheism than the general disposition of the God-heads in this place, and I believe in a god! (out of a sense of philosophical responsibility, and "faith" which should go unspoken, though I don't ever mean what the devout mean when they say faith, and have to keep reminding myself and everyone else because I absolutely do not want to be confused with them when we tread on what seems like similar ground)
.</strong><hr></blockquote>Perhaps he is reffering to people like yourself, who would ordinarily be labeled as athiests by the average religious person and yet who call themselves theists of sorts
there have been some very intelligent discussions about religion on this site . . . between all the thumpings
Nick
ai has also affected my views in that i now know that many canadians have not only computers, but american computers like apple and dell...i wasn't even sure canada had electricity and running water before this...i am impressed.... <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
<strong>the main thing that I have learned is that Nick has foot thick blinders on</strong><hr></blockquote>
Would you have felt better if I didn't say leftist and phrased it this way?
[quote]after arguing on these boards I have come to see just how right he was: peoople's opinions are motivated not so much by logic or reason as they are by a kind of veneer of style:
or better, an imagined style,
or even better: an Image
an image of who they are when they take a position
an image that includes the image of imaginary peers who also support that fictitious image that they represent with their opinions
Forget reason and critical thought, when it comes up against that IMAGE of the adversary, the CORRECT thought. critique flies out the window
and you might as well shrug your shoulders and admit what my father always said: "you can not change someone's point of view"
I do believe however that therre is the possibitlity of widdling down that image:
I for one have openned my perspecctives a little towards recognizing some valid points in the camps of MY ENEMIES
But I have also come to see how profoundly wrong they are <hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
Nick
I guess for me it has simply proven that there is very little reasoning behind many of the views of the right politically. You can show them clear examples of flawed reasoning, flawed use of the policy, facts, examples, analogies, you name it and it all comes down to what they think is correct and what they believe about it.
or
I guess for me it has simply proven that there is very little reasoning behind many of the views of religious people. You can show them clear examples of flawed reasoning, flawed use of the policy, facts, examples, analogies, you name it and it all comes down to what they think is correct and what they believe about it.
right, left, religious, athesist....no difference here on the boards....i think it is almost impossible to change someones mind over the net...for true discussion and arguement you need face to face contact...you can respect and understand a face much easier than a screen...g
<strong>nah...it should have been worded like this:
I guess for me it has simply proven that there is very little reasoning behind many of the views of the right politically. You can show them clear examples of flawed reasoning, flawed use of the policy, facts, examples, analogies, you name it and it all comes down to what they think is correct and what they believe about it.
or
I guess for me it has simply proven that there is very little reasoning behind many of the views of religious people. You can show them clear examples of flawed reasoning, flawed use of the policy, facts, examples, analogies, you name it and it all comes down to what they think is correct and what they believe about it.
right, left, religious, athesist....no difference here on the boards....i think it is almost impossible to change someones mind over the net...for true discussion and arguement you need face to face contact...you can respect and understand a face much easier than a screen...g</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well that is why I was laughing, but you actually made the point better. He says people won't change their opinions. I say they won't change their opinions. I have blinders on.
Nick
<strong>I A kind of imbecility that is described best by the term groverat <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" />
[ 02-07-2003: Message edited by: der Kopf ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
This is not acceptable : direct attack against others members are not allowed even if they are mod.