I'm surprised that everyone is assuming that the Mac Pros REQUIRE the use of Xeon processors. From everything I've read, Xeons are just not worth the price of admission. The minute performance gains over the standard desktop chips are better overcome with a quality SSD than with the price of the CPU. The biggest advantage is their multi-processor motherboard support. Apple still sells single-CPU towers. I think that Apple may introduce a single CPU desktop Mac Pro with the multi-processor Xeons to be updated later down the road when the CPUs become available.
They may even pass the CPU savings onto us... okay, that may just be wishful thinking there.
Apple will release updates for its Mac Pro and Mac mini desktops in August, adding Intel's latest generation Sandy Bridge processors and the new high-speed Thunderbolt port, according to a new rumor.
It would be really nice to have graphic cards in the systems that are less than 2-2 1/2 years behind the competition. Pathetic, that I have to buy a second Video card for my mac pro 12 core that i can only use in windows, and wait for Apple to finally play catch up. >:-(
It would be really nice to have graphic cards in the systems that are less than 2-2 1/2 years behind the competition. Pathetic, that I have to buy a second Video card for my mac pro 12 core that i can only use in windows, and wait for Apple to finally play catch up.
The 8800 GT was new enough when it came out. The 4870 was new when it came out.
The 8800 GT was new enough when it came out. The 4870 was new when it came out.
So were the Westmere cards.
I fail to see the problem here.
One thing that can explain why Apple offers so few card options is simply a matter of scale. Apple may be doing billions of dollars of business, but not that much of it is in computers with discreet graphics cards. And as Apple like everyone else has to control costs they can't justify assigning a lot of human resources to write, test and deploy drivers for 20 to 30 different cards. Also, the Apple way is a somewhat minimal philosophy and they probably just don't see the need for certifying so many cards. As to not supporting the newest cards - same reason. If the card only offers small improvements over the existing certified card they are not going to bother "keeping up with the Jones"
I'm surprised that everyone is assuming that the Mac Pros REQUIRE the use of Xeon processors. From everything I've read, Xeons are just not worth the price of admission.
They may even pass the CPU savings onto us... okay, that may just be wishful thinking there.
This crops up a lot but it's not really the Xeons that make the difference, it just seems that way because of the BTO options. The price point of the Mac Pro is largely artificial. The CPUs it uses cost around $300. Only $800 of the $3500 Mac Pro is taken up by the CPUs.
HP sell a workstation with the same CPU as the current entry Mac Pro for $1250:
Even has a Quadro GPU and a mini-tower chassis. Apple sell their version at $2500, exactly twice the price. It's not hyperbole to suggest the price is artificial because they used to sell it $500 cheaper with the same price of processors and no change to the chassis.
I suspect it has something to do with sales volume and a redesign that allows people to use the same machine as a server or a workstation should help - they can add the two markets together. If they can at least drag it back down to $1999, that would improve sales.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary54
An up charge for a dual core i7 maybe, but Mini's will be lucky to see 4 cores at all.
It seems likely to be dual i5 but next year's Ivy Bridge will bring quad-cores to everything so just another year and our 4c/8t Mini will arrive with a 16EU IGP so it can finally drag its graphical ass up to the level of last year's 320M.
Of course if Huang would just get off the sun-bed once in a while, we might actually get a Thunderbolt GPU and we won't have to worry about it.
sill need USB for stuff like keyboards and mouse and you will need like 3-4 TB ports or a mess of hubs to go all TB. Also still need sound out analog / digital / TOSLINK.
E-net is also needed!!
All of that can be done via T-Bolt. Even E-net!!
And it does it faster and better. Sure, people might have to get great new peripherals instead of using their legacy stuff. Sometimes, people need to be dragged kicking and screaming into the future.
The 8800 GT was new enough when it came out. The 4870 was new when it came out.
So were the Westmere cards.
I fail to see the problem here.
The AMD 5770 wasn't new when it was placed in Mac Pros last year, and it's very old now (came out at the end of 2009 in PC land). If a user wants a second 5770, it's another $250, whereas when I added a 2nd 5770 to my PC recently, it was about $75 (and the cheap price was the only reason I bought it). The 5770 is fairly mid-range, 1.5 year old gaming GPU, supplanted by the newer 6xxx and Nvidia 5xx series.
And the $5000 Mac Pro still comes with the 5770, not even a decent workstation GPU. The only thing the Mac Pro has going for it, are the fast Xeon's.
HP sell a workstation with the same CPU as the current entry Mac Pro for $1250:
There was discussion on AI recently where it was pointed out that the low end MacPro are not a good value. This is the penalty you pay due to Apple having a single chassis in which to install motherboards. Interestingly the high end MacPros are priced identically to their competition from various vendors like HP and and Boxx.
The AMD 5770 wasn't new when it was placed in Mac Pros last year, and it's very old now (came out at the end of 2009 in PC land). If a user wants a second 5770, it's another $250, whereas when I added a 2nd 5770 to my PC recently, it was about $75 (and the cheap price was the only reason I bought it). The 5770 is fairly mid-range, 1.5 year old gaming GPU, supplanted by the newer 6xxx and Nvidia 5xx series.
And the $5000 Mac Pro still comes with the 5770, not even a decent workstation GPU. The only thing the Mac Pro has going for it, are the fast Xeon's.
They refuse to see the writing on the wall. The card in my Mac Pro is already well beyond 2yrs old, and my machine is fairly new. I hate it when it drops frames...... FOR WHATEVER REASON.
They don't need to keep up with the Joneses...... at least keep pace with smiths.... who are using last year's items.
Here's my shot at Mac Mini predictions (I own a 2009 Mac Mini). I'm extrapolating from the 13" MacBook Pro, which is it's closest design cousin.
Certainty:
Sandy Bridge w/core i5 processors @ 2 cores.
Thunderbolt (1 port)
USB 2.0 (4 ports)
Firewire 800 (1 port)
Mini Displayport (EDIT: this is in the Thunderbolt port...sorry for being redundant)
Intel HD 3000 graphics (sorry, nothing better than this)
SDXC slot
Maybe:
4 gigs standard (up to 8 gigs offered, OWC will find that 16 gigs works too)
HDMI (fairly likely, people still use these machines as media centers, even with Front Row going away)
Core i7 @ 2 cores (like the 13" Macbook Pro)
Core i7 @ 4 cores (maybe a build to order...would make it a modern day SE/30)
No optical drive at all (A non-optical server version has been shipping of the Mini for 2 years)
SSD BTO option (especially if the optical drive goes)
Not gonna happen:
USB 3.0 (try next year with Ivy Bridge)
Blu-Ray (never)
Why Blu-Ray never?
Whether Microsoft and Apple, as powerful as they may be, like Blu-ray or not is irrelevant. Nobody cares what they think. The truth is that if a large number of Apple customers build up a decent library of blu-ray titles, there is going to be a need for Blu-ray playback eventually.
I have a 24" Cinema Display attached to my current Mini and would love to use it to display my blu-ray titles which are now rather numerous. I would imagine they'd look absolutely superb on such a high-grade monitor.
No doubt Apple would prefer we all just download our movies from Apple but I'm paying far less for Blu-ray HD versions of movies than it would cost me to buy the SD version off Apple, compressed at that. There are lots of folks with zero regard for quality who are getting their video via download but they're paying a premium for an inferior product. I can't believe everyone is that foolish and as such, the death of Blu-ray has been greatly exaggerated.
If we get to the point where a lot of people view Apple products as crippled because they are incapable of handling the most advanced video format in the market, Apple will be forced to update its equipment in response. To this point it hasn't been a big issue but Blu-ray is not merely a niche product that will eventually disappear. A lot of people, especially those who truly appreciate video quality, are buying significant numbers of Blu-rays and some of those people are going to own Apple products. They'll be wanting Blu-ray playback and they will, in time, get it. It's inevitable.
By the way, as long as the Mini gets inferior graphics muscle, it's going to be a significant flaw. The Intel HD 3000 is not an improvement on the current graphics solution and in some ways a downgrade. It's surprising that Apple is willing to do a long overdue update on a machine and weaken the specs. If the current Mini form factor can't handle a discrete GPU, why is Apple OK with that. Customers are stuck. It's not like there's much of a choice if what you want is a monitor-less computer that doesn't cost in excess of $2,400. But Apple does have options.
there is going to be a need for Blu-ray playback eventually.
Not really.
Quote:
I have a 24" Cinema Display attached to my current Mini and would love to use it to display my blu-ray titles which are now rather numerous. I would imagine they'd look absolutely superb on such a high-grade monitor.
So rip them to your iTunes library like I did with my HD DVDs.
The memory bus is not the problem. Using 1333mhz or faster memory only gives you between 5-8% more performance. Especially since you have Fully Buffered memory. If you use 4 modules/8 moduels the memory is interleaving and makes up almost for the dual/triple channel Dram in newer MacPros.
If your Mac is slow. Start activity monitor. Majority of the cases I have seen with slow macs are hanging Flash processes and I/O problems.
One major problem with Macpro + Raided file system. When your disks are more then 80% full I/O can get crazy. I have seen 3000-4000 I/O per sec when that happens. An ordinary disk manage about 100 I/Os.
If I/O make shure to have at least 20% free. Consider SSD.
Thanks for your suggestions. I've solved the problem. My Mac Pro is back to being a beast again.
Blu-Ray would requie that Apple add DRM to the OS that really shouldn't be there. DRM that only creates problems for the maintenance and reliability of the OS.
Blu-Ray DRM is also very unfriendly for the consumer.
There are fewer and fewer palces everyday to even buy a DVD much less a Blu-Ray disk.
Rentals are for the most part DVD's.
When it comes right down to it the disks aren't that reliable.
Blu-ray is grossly over priced. Especialy if you watch a movie at most a couple of times.
If Sony was serious about Blu-Ray they would have licensed it openly or simply put the standard into the public domain.
As can be seen with Sony's behaviour with repsect to Playstation they are very vindictative and hostile to owners and their rights. That hostility extends to just about everything Sony sells. So the big question, for the consummer is why do business with a comapy that has so little repsect for the customers they are suppose to serve?
Quote:
Whether Microsoft and Apple, as powerful as they may be, like Blu-ray or not is irrelevant. Nobody cares what they think. The truth is that if a large number of Apple customers build up a decent library of blu-ray titles, there is going to be a need for Blu-ray playback eventually.
Actually optical media is becoming irrelevant and Blu-Ray never was. One just needs to look round town to see the whole industry going down the tubes. It won't happen as fast as it did with the music industry but it will happen.
Quote:
I have a 24" Cinema Display attached to my current Mini and would love to use it to display my blu-ray titles which are now rather numerous. I would imagine they'd look absolutely superb on such a high-grade monitor.
They most likely would look great. The quality of a Blu-Ray movie isn't really the issue here.
Quote:
No doubt Apple would prefer we all just download our movies from Apple but I'm paying far less for Blu-ray HD versions of movies than it would cost me to buy the SD version off Apple, compressed at that. There are lots of folks with zero regard for quality who are getting their video via download but they're paying a premium for an inferior product. I can't believe everyone is that foolish and as such, the death of Blu-ray has been greatly exaggerated.
It isn't an exaggeration at all, all one needs to do is look at what is happening. As to Apple downloads some aren't the best from the standpoint of economics, but then again some aren't bad at all.
Quote:
If we get to the point where a lot of people view Apple products as crippled because they are incapable of handling the most advanced video format in the market, Apple will be forced to update its equipment in response. To this point it hasn't been a big issue but Blu-ray is not merely a niche product that will eventually disappear. A lot of people, especially those who truly appreciate video quality, are buying significant numbers of Blu-rays and some of those people are going to own Apple products. They'll be wanting Blu-ray playback and they will, in time, get it. It's inevitable.
You are out of touch with reality. I don't see new stores opening up to sell optical media in any format. Instead I see stores closing down. It is pretty much the same process, though slower, that we saw with digital distribution of records.
Quote:
By the way, as long as the Mini gets inferior graphics muscle, it's going to be a significant flaw. The Intel HD 3000 is not an improvement on the current graphics solution and in some ways a downgrade.
Well this I would agree with 100%. That is one of the reasons I would love to see an AMD Fusion processor in the Mini. The new Fusion is almost ideal for he Mini and seems to reflect the same sort of thinking that Apple has put into their OS. That is support for OpenCL with the eventual move to heterogeneous computing.
Quote:
It's surprising that Apple is willing to do a long overdue update on a machine and weaken the specs. If the current Mini form factor can't handle a discrete GPU, why is Apple OK with that.
It is a small form factor machine. In that regards it is a fine little machine. I'm not at all happy with the prospects of going backwards so I'm hoping Apple does address the HD3000 regression in the Mini.
Quote:
Customers are stuck. It's not like there's much of a choice if what you want is a monitor-less computer that doesn't cost in excess of $2,400. But Apple does have options.
Again I'm 100% in agreement here, Apple has a huge ocean sitting between their two desktop computers. I also agree that Apple has a lot of options they can pursue but seem hell bent on ignoring the desktop market. Sad!
Even with all of those concerns the Mini could see one of the largest bumps in performance in some time if we exclude the GPU in the evaluation. So it depends upon what you want out of the Mini. If the desire is hot CPU performance with little regard to the GPU a SB Mini might be just the nuts. If you want a better balance towards the GPU end then an AMD Fusion would do. Either of these solutions though do not address the need for a midrange desktop.
Blu-Ray would requie that Apple add DRM to the OS that really shouldn't be there. DRM that only creates problems for the maintenance and reliability of the OS.
Blu-Ray DRM is also very unfriendly for the consumer.
There are fewer and fewer palces everyday to even buy a DVD much less a Blu-Ray disk.
Rentals are for the most part DVD's.
When it comes right down to it the disks aren't that reliable.
Blu-ray is grossly over priced. Especialy if you watch a movie at most a couple of times.
If Sony was serious about Blu-Ray they would have licensed it openly or simply put the standard into the public domain.
As can be seen with Sony's behaviour with repsect to Playstation they are very vindictative and hostile to owners and their rights. That hostility extends to just about everything Sony sells. So the big question, for the consummer is why do business with a comapy that has so little repsect for the customers they are suppose to serve?
Actually optical media is becoming irrelevant and Blu-Ray never was. One just needs to look round town to see the whole industry going down the tubes. It won't happen as fast as it did with the music industry but it will happen.
They most likely would look great. The quality of a Blu-Ray movie isn't really the issue here.
And another thing. Regarding the Mini, is it too much to ask that in every respect each successive version outperform the one that came before? Isn't that the norm for computers? I can live with the Mini form factor and even that it is a weaker performer than would be possible using desktop components but that the previous version is more capable in any regard, really, that's unacceptable.
By the way, if I buy a movie on BD and it plays in whatever Blu-ray players I have at my disposal, what do I care about DRM? I'm not worried about copying the movie and handing it out to everyone I know. I just want a decent library of movies that I can delve into when the mood strikes me. DRM is beside the point.
It isn't an exaggeration at all, all one needs to do is look at what is happening. As to Apple downloads some aren't the best from the standpoint of economics, but then again some aren't bad at all.
You are out of touch with reality. I don't see new stores opening up to sell optical media in any format. Instead I see stores closing down. It is pretty much the same process, though slower, that we saw with digital distribution of records.
Well this I would agree with 100%. That is one of the reasons I would love to see an AMD Fusion processor in the Mini. The new Fusion is almost ideal for he Mini and seems to reflect the same sort of thinking that Apple has put into their OS. That is support for OpenCL with the eventual move to heterogeneous computing.
It is a small form factor machine. In that regards it is a fine little machine. I'm not at all happy with the prospects of going backwards so I'm hoping Apple does address the HD3000 regression in the Mini.
Again I'm 100% in agreement here, Apple has a huge ocean sitting between their two desktop computers. I also agree that Apple has a lot of options they can pursue but seem hell bent on ignoring the desktop market. Sad!
Even with all of those concerns the Mini could see one of the largest bumps in performance in some time if we exclude the GPU in the evaluation. So it depends upon what you want out of the Mini. If the desire is hot CPU performance with little regard to the GPU a SB Mini might be just the nuts. If you want a better balance towards the GPU end then an AMD Fusion would do. Either of these solutions though do not address the need for a midrange desktop.
Your confusion stems from mixing up renting movies and buying them outright. The death of physical media as a source of rentals is a reality. People generally don't go out and pick up physical media when they're renting and rental locales are dying off. But it's entirely another matter when talking physical media and buying a movie outright. What we're seeing and are likely to see for the foreseeable future are several different approaches to distributing permanently purchased copies of movies. Downloads and physical media like Blu-ray and DVD do and will continue to co-exist.
I don't think you grasp just how much more expensive it is to buy a movie from a download service like Apple's vs. picking up that same title in Blu-ray on sale. Take The Fighter, for example. I'm going to buy it in a few days here in Canada for $10. The Apple Store's price in Canada for The Fighter is currently $24.99 for a 720P version and $19.99 for the SD version. Um, decisions, decisions. Do I spend $10 for a 1080P version of the movie burned onto stable media that will likely last for many years or spend more than twice that amount for a 720P version that I will not have a physical copy of.
As for your claim that no one sells Blu-rays any more, really? My question to you is, what currently operating major retailers who would sell such items are not selling Blu-rays?
Hard though this might be to believe, every single consumer is not a 25-year-old male who refuses to do anything but download movies or music. There is a fragmentation taking place that is causing the pie to be cut into pieces rather than one format all but dominating. That's not a bad thing.
AnyDVD HD, I believe. Then TXMuxer-somethingorother. Handbrake after that to get it into iTunes. Been a while since I needed to rip a movie, so that could be wrong...
AnyDVD HD, I believe. Then TXMuxer-somethingorother. Handbrake after that to get it into iTunes. Been a while since I needed to rip a movie, so that could be wrong...
And how did you read the HD-DVD on the Mac in the first place?
Your confusion stems from mixing up renting movies and buying them outright. The death of physical media as a source of rentals is a reality. People generally don't go out and pick up physical media when they're renting and rental locales are dying off. But it's entirely another matter when talking physical media and buying a movie outright. What we're seeing and are likely to see for the foreseeable future are several different approaches to distributing permanently purchased copies of movies. Downloads and physical media like Blu-ray and DVD do and will continue to co-exist.
I'm not saying physical media will go away overnight like it did with Music, it will take longer. Eventually it will happen though. It is a question of economics.
As to the desire to have physical media I honestly understand that, especially for backups. It is just that the physical media no longer has to be an optical disk. It can be a hard disk, a disk array, an SD card, or optical. Even then it looks like Apples goal is to do away with the need to even have a physical backup with iCloud.
Quote:
I don't think you grasp just how much more expensive it is to buy a movie from a download service like Apple's vs. picking up that same title in Blu-ray on sale. Take The Fighter, for example. I'm going to buy it in a few days here in Canada for $10. The Apple Store's price in Canada for The Fighter is currently $24.99 for a 720P version and $19.99 for the SD version. Um, decisions, decisions. Do I spend $10 for a 1080P version of the movie burned onto stable media that will likely last for many years or spend more than twice that amount for a 720P version that I will not have a physical copy of.
Actually I grasp the situation rather well. I do use iTunes when it makes sense and buy DVd's when that makes sense. I just add the DVDs to my iTunes library to make them readily available. At times Apples pricing is a little excessive but not all the time. As for the arguments about 720P or 1080P it might make a difference if I had a large screen or a burning desire to get one but I don't.
Quote:
As for your claim that no one sells Blu-rays any more, really? My question to you is, what currently operating major retailers who would sell such items are not selling Blu-rays?
It is about the future of stores selling optical media in general. I don't know where you live but they have been closing up right and left where I live even some big chains.
Quote:
Hard though this might be to believe, every single consumer is not a 25-year-old male who refuses to do anything but download movies or music.
This may be hard to believe also but I'm +50 and have seen many things come and go over the years. Do you Remember laser disks and some of the other formats of the past? What you have been offering up here is frankly the same thoughts that the laser disk owners had. Blu-Ray is not the last word in the distribution of movies and honestly is a very poor way to treat consumers. It will go away like many other abusive attempts to coerce consumers into surrendering to corporate initiatives.
Quote:
There is a fragmentation taking place that is causing the pie to be cut into pieces rather than one format all but dominating. That's not a bad thing.
Yeah like I said I've heard this all before. Now that doesn't mean that Sony won't wake up and smell the roses with Blu Ray and do more to make it a universal standard, but as it is now Blu-ray is a pathetic failure. Any one with any sense would stay away from the whole mess that is Blu-Ray.
And how did you read the HD-DVD on the Mac in the first place?
By putting it in. Same with the single Blu-ray disc I have (Serenity). You don't need OS-level support to read from the discs, just to get around the draconian DRM on them.
All versions of OS X since at least Tiger can see mounted HD DVD discs, and probably Blu-ray.
Heck, you can even PLAY BLU-RAY AND HD DVD discs in OS X. No Windows needed.
Put it in, open a program called MakeMKV, and push the disc stream out to VLC. It'll play in VLC.
Not simple, not very Apple-like, but playback from the disc itself WORKS.
Comments
They may even pass the CPU savings onto us... okay, that may just be wishful thinking there.
They may even pass the CPU savings onto us... okay, that may just be wishful thinking there.
Wishful thinking is right LOL As is a 4 core Mini.
An up charge for a dual core i7 maybe, but Mini's will be lucky to see 4 cores at all.
Apple will release updates for its Mac Pro and Mac mini desktops in August, adding Intel's latest generation Sandy Bridge processors and the new high-speed Thunderbolt port, according to a new rumor.
[ View this article at AppleInsider.com ]
It would be really nice to have graphic cards in the systems that are less than 2-2 1/2 years behind the competition. Pathetic, that I have to buy a second Video card for my mac pro 12 core that i can only use in windows, and wait for Apple to finally play catch up. >:-(
It would be really nice to have graphic cards in the systems that are less than 2-2 1/2 years behind the competition. Pathetic, that I have to buy a second Video card for my mac pro 12 core that i can only use in windows, and wait for Apple to finally play catch up.
The 8800 GT was new enough when it came out. The 4870 was new when it came out.
So were the Westmere cards.
I fail to see the problem here.
The 8800 GT was new enough when it came out. The 4870 was new when it came out.
So were the Westmere cards.
I fail to see the problem here.
One thing that can explain why Apple offers so few card options is simply a matter of scale. Apple may be doing billions of dollars of business, but not that much of it is in computers with discreet graphics cards. And as Apple like everyone else has to control costs they can't justify assigning a lot of human resources to write, test and deploy drivers for 20 to 30 different cards. Also, the Apple way is a somewhat minimal philosophy and they probably just don't see the need for certifying so many cards. As to not supporting the newest cards - same reason. If the card only offers small improvements over the existing certified card they are not going to bother "keeping up with the Jones"
I'm surprised that everyone is assuming that the Mac Pros REQUIRE the use of Xeon processors. From everything I've read, Xeons are just not worth the price of admission.
They may even pass the CPU savings onto us... okay, that may just be wishful thinking there.
This crops up a lot but it's not really the Xeons that make the difference, it just seems that way because of the BTO options. The price point of the Mac Pro is largely artificial. The CPUs it uses cost around $300. Only $800 of the $3500 Mac Pro is taken up by the CPUs.
HP sell a workstation with the same CPU as the current entry Mac Pro for $1250:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16883147489
Even has a Quadro GPU and a mini-tower chassis. Apple sell their version at $2500, exactly twice the price. It's not hyperbole to suggest the price is artificial because they used to sell it $500 cheaper with the same price of processors and no change to the chassis.
I suspect it has something to do with sales volume and a redesign that allows people to use the same machine as a server or a workstation should help - they can add the two markets together. If they can at least drag it back down to $1999, that would improve sales.
An up charge for a dual core i7 maybe, but Mini's will be lucky to see 4 cores at all.
It seems likely to be dual i5 but next year's Ivy Bridge will bring quad-cores to everything so just another year and our 4c/8t Mini will arrive with a 16EU IGP so it can finally drag its graphical ass up to the level of last year's 320M.
Of course if Huang would just get off the sun-bed once in a while, we might actually get a Thunderbolt GPU and we won't have to worry about it.
sill need USB for stuff like keyboards and mouse and you will need like 3-4 TB ports or a mess of hubs to go all TB. Also still need sound out analog / digital / TOSLINK.
E-net is also needed!!
All of that can be done via T-Bolt. Even E-net!!
And it does it faster and better. Sure, people might have to get great new peripherals instead of using their legacy stuff. Sometimes, people need to be dragged kicking and screaming into the future.
The 8800 GT was new enough when it came out. The 4870 was new when it came out.
So were the Westmere cards.
I fail to see the problem here.
The AMD 5770 wasn't new when it was placed in Mac Pros last year, and it's very old now (came out at the end of 2009 in PC land). If a user wants a second 5770, it's another $250, whereas when I added a 2nd 5770 to my PC recently, it was about $75 (and the cheap price was the only reason I bought it). The 5770 is fairly mid-range, 1.5 year old gaming GPU, supplanted by the newer 6xxx and Nvidia 5xx series.
And the $5000 Mac Pro still comes with the 5770, not even a decent workstation GPU. The only thing the Mac Pro has going for it, are the fast Xeon's.
HP sell a workstation with the same CPU as the current entry Mac Pro for $1250:
There was discussion on AI recently where it was pointed out that the low end MacPro are not a good value. This is the penalty you pay due to Apple having a single chassis in which to install motherboards. Interestingly the high end MacPros are priced identically to their competition from various vendors like HP and and Boxx.
The AMD 5770 wasn't new when it was placed in Mac Pros last year, and it's very old now (came out at the end of 2009 in PC land). If a user wants a second 5770, it's another $250, whereas when I added a 2nd 5770 to my PC recently, it was about $75 (and the cheap price was the only reason I bought it). The 5770 is fairly mid-range, 1.5 year old gaming GPU, supplanted by the newer 6xxx and Nvidia 5xx series.
And the $5000 Mac Pro still comes with the 5770, not even a decent workstation GPU. The only thing the Mac Pro has going for it, are the fast Xeon's.
They refuse to see the writing on the wall. The card in my Mac Pro is already well beyond 2yrs old, and my machine is fairly new. I hate it when it drops frames...... FOR WHATEVER REASON.
They don't need to keep up with the Joneses...... at least keep pace with smiths.... who are using last year's items.
Here's my shot at Mac Mini predictions (I own a 2009 Mac Mini). I'm extrapolating from the 13" MacBook Pro, which is it's closest design cousin.
Certainty:
Sandy Bridge w/core i5 processors @ 2 cores.
Thunderbolt (1 port)
USB 2.0 (4 ports)
Firewire 800 (1 port)
Mini Displayport (EDIT: this is in the Thunderbolt port...sorry for being redundant)
Intel HD 3000 graphics (sorry, nothing better than this)
SDXC slot
Maybe:
4 gigs standard (up to 8 gigs offered, OWC will find that 16 gigs works too)
HDMI (fairly likely, people still use these machines as media centers, even with Front Row going away)
Core i7 @ 2 cores (like the 13" Macbook Pro)
Core i7 @ 4 cores (maybe a build to order...would make it a modern day SE/30)
No optical drive at all (A non-optical server version has been shipping of the Mini for 2 years)
SSD BTO option (especially if the optical drive goes)
Not gonna happen:
USB 3.0 (try next year with Ivy Bridge)
Blu-Ray (never)
Why Blu-Ray never?
Whether Microsoft and Apple, as powerful as they may be, like Blu-ray or not is irrelevant. Nobody cares what they think. The truth is that if a large number of Apple customers build up a decent library of blu-ray titles, there is going to be a need for Blu-ray playback eventually.
I have a 24" Cinema Display attached to my current Mini and would love to use it to display my blu-ray titles which are now rather numerous. I would imagine they'd look absolutely superb on such a high-grade monitor.
No doubt Apple would prefer we all just download our movies from Apple but I'm paying far less for Blu-ray HD versions of movies than it would cost me to buy the SD version off Apple, compressed at that. There are lots of folks with zero regard for quality who are getting their video via download but they're paying a premium for an inferior product. I can't believe everyone is that foolish and as such, the death of Blu-ray has been greatly exaggerated.
If we get to the point where a lot of people view Apple products as crippled because they are incapable of handling the most advanced video format in the market, Apple will be forced to update its equipment in response. To this point it hasn't been a big issue but Blu-ray is not merely a niche product that will eventually disappear. A lot of people, especially those who truly appreciate video quality, are buying significant numbers of Blu-rays and some of those people are going to own Apple products. They'll be wanting Blu-ray playback and they will, in time, get it. It's inevitable.
By the way, as long as the Mini gets inferior graphics muscle, it's going to be a significant flaw. The Intel HD 3000 is not an improvement on the current graphics solution and in some ways a downgrade. It's surprising that Apple is willing to do a long overdue update on a machine and weaken the specs. If the current Mini form factor can't handle a discrete GPU, why is Apple OK with that. Customers are stuck. It's not like there's much of a choice if what you want is a monitor-less computer that doesn't cost in excess of $2,400. But Apple does have options.
Why Blu-Ray never?
DRM at OS level.
there is going to be a need for Blu-ray playback eventually.
Not really.
I have a 24" Cinema Display attached to my current Mini and would love to use it to display my blu-ray titles which are now rather numerous. I would imagine they'd look absolutely superb on such a high-grade monitor.
So rip them to your iTunes library like I did with my HD DVDs.
The memory bus is not the problem. Using 1333mhz or faster memory only gives you between 5-8% more performance. Especially since you have Fully Buffered memory. If you use 4 modules/8 moduels the memory is interleaving and makes up almost for the dual/triple channel Dram in newer MacPros.
If your Mac is slow. Start activity monitor. Majority of the cases I have seen with slow macs are hanging Flash processes and I/O problems.
One major problem with Macpro + Raided file system. When your disks are more then 80% full I/O can get crazy. I have seen 3000-4000 I/O per sec when that happens. An ordinary disk manage about 100 I/Os.
If I/O make shure to have at least 20% free. Consider SSD.
Thanks for your suggestions. I've solved the problem. My Mac Pro is back to being a beast again.
Why Blu-Ray never?
Whether Microsoft and Apple, as powerful as they may be, like Blu-ray or not is irrelevant. Nobody cares what they think. The truth is that if a large number of Apple customers build up a decent library of blu-ray titles, there is going to be a need for Blu-ray playback eventually.
Actually optical media is becoming irrelevant and Blu-Ray never was. One just needs to look round town to see the whole industry going down the tubes. It won't happen as fast as it did with the music industry but it will happen.
I have a 24" Cinema Display attached to my current Mini and would love to use it to display my blu-ray titles which are now rather numerous. I would imagine they'd look absolutely superb on such a high-grade monitor.
They most likely would look great. The quality of a Blu-Ray movie isn't really the issue here.
No doubt Apple would prefer we all just download our movies from Apple but I'm paying far less for Blu-ray HD versions of movies than it would cost me to buy the SD version off Apple, compressed at that. There are lots of folks with zero regard for quality who are getting their video via download but they're paying a premium for an inferior product. I can't believe everyone is that foolish and as such, the death of Blu-ray has been greatly exaggerated.
It isn't an exaggeration at all, all one needs to do is look at what is happening. As to Apple downloads some aren't the best from the standpoint of economics, but then again some aren't bad at all.
If we get to the point where a lot of people view Apple products as crippled because they are incapable of handling the most advanced video format in the market, Apple will be forced to update its equipment in response. To this point it hasn't been a big issue but Blu-ray is not merely a niche product that will eventually disappear. A lot of people, especially those who truly appreciate video quality, are buying significant numbers of Blu-rays and some of those people are going to own Apple products. They'll be wanting Blu-ray playback and they will, in time, get it. It's inevitable.
You are out of touch with reality. I don't see new stores opening up to sell optical media in any format. Instead I see stores closing down. It is pretty much the same process, though slower, that we saw with digital distribution of records.
By the way, as long as the Mini gets inferior graphics muscle, it's going to be a significant flaw. The Intel HD 3000 is not an improvement on the current graphics solution and in some ways a downgrade.
Well this I would agree with 100%. That is one of the reasons I would love to see an AMD Fusion processor in the Mini. The new Fusion is almost ideal for he Mini and seems to reflect the same sort of thinking that Apple has put into their OS. That is support for OpenCL with the eventual move to heterogeneous computing.
It's surprising that Apple is willing to do a long overdue update on a machine and weaken the specs. If the current Mini form factor can't handle a discrete GPU, why is Apple OK with that.
It is a small form factor machine. In that regards it is a fine little machine. I'm not at all happy with the prospects of going backwards so I'm hoping Apple does address the HD3000 regression in the Mini.
Customers are stuck. It's not like there's much of a choice if what you want is a monitor-less computer that doesn't cost in excess of $2,400. But Apple does have options.
Again I'm 100% in agreement here, Apple has a huge ocean sitting between their two desktop computers. I also agree that Apple has a lot of options they can pursue but seem hell bent on ignoring the desktop market. Sad!
Even with all of those concerns the Mini could see one of the largest bumps in performance in some time if we exclude the GPU in the evaluation. So it depends upon what you want out of the Mini. If the desire is hot CPU performance with little regard to the GPU a SB Mini might be just the nuts. If you want a better balance towards the GPU end then an AMD Fusion would do. Either of these solutions though do not address the need for a midrange desktop.
- Blu-Ray would requie that Apple add DRM to the OS that really shouldn't be there. DRM that only creates problems for the maintenance and reliability of the OS.
- Blu-Ray DRM is also very unfriendly for the consumer.
- There are fewer and fewer palces everyday to even buy a DVD much less a Blu-Ray disk.
- Rentals are for the most part DVD's.
- When it comes right down to it the disks aren't that reliable.
- Blu-ray is grossly over priced. Especialy if you watch a movie at most a couple of times.
- If Sony was serious about Blu-Ray they would have licensed it openly or simply put the standard into the public domain.
- As can be seen with Sony's behaviour with repsect to Playstation they are very vindictative and hostile to owners and their rights. That hostility extends to just about everything Sony sells. So the big question, for the consummer is why do business with a comapy that has so little repsect for the customers they are suppose to serve?
Actually optical media is becoming irrelevant and Blu-Ray never was. One just needs to look round town to see the whole industry going down the tubes. It won't happen as fast as it did with the music industry but it will happen.They most likely would look great. The quality of a Blu-Ray movie isn't really the issue here.
And another thing. Regarding the Mini, is it too much to ask that in every respect each successive version outperform the one that came before? Isn't that the norm for computers? I can live with the Mini form factor and even that it is a weaker performer than would be possible using desktop components but that the previous version is more capable in any regard, really, that's unacceptable.
By the way, if I buy a movie on BD and it plays in whatever Blu-ray players I have at my disposal, what do I care about DRM? I'm not worried about copying the movie and handing it out to everyone I know. I just want a decent library of movies that I can delve into when the mood strikes me. DRM is beside the point.
It isn't an exaggeration at all, all one needs to do is look at what is happening. As to Apple downloads some aren't the best from the standpoint of economics, but then again some aren't bad at all.
You are out of touch with reality. I don't see new stores opening up to sell optical media in any format. Instead I see stores closing down. It is pretty much the same process, though slower, that we saw with digital distribution of records.
Well this I would agree with 100%. That is one of the reasons I would love to see an AMD Fusion processor in the Mini. The new Fusion is almost ideal for he Mini and seems to reflect the same sort of thinking that Apple has put into their OS. That is support for OpenCL with the eventual move to heterogeneous computing.
It is a small form factor machine. In that regards it is a fine little machine. I'm not at all happy with the prospects of going backwards so I'm hoping Apple does address the HD3000 regression in the Mini.
Again I'm 100% in agreement here, Apple has a huge ocean sitting between their two desktop computers. I also agree that Apple has a lot of options they can pursue but seem hell bent on ignoring the desktop market. Sad!
Even with all of those concerns the Mini could see one of the largest bumps in performance in some time if we exclude the GPU in the evaluation. So it depends upon what you want out of the Mini. If the desire is hot CPU performance with little regard to the GPU a SB Mini might be just the nuts. If you want a better balance towards the GPU end then an AMD Fusion would do. Either of these solutions though do not address the need for a midrange desktop.
Your confusion stems from mixing up renting movies and buying them outright. The death of physical media as a source of rentals is a reality. People generally don't go out and pick up physical media when they're renting and rental locales are dying off. But it's entirely another matter when talking physical media and buying a movie outright. What we're seeing and are likely to see for the foreseeable future are several different approaches to distributing permanently purchased copies of movies. Downloads and physical media like Blu-ray and DVD do and will continue to co-exist.
I don't think you grasp just how much more expensive it is to buy a movie from a download service like Apple's vs. picking up that same title in Blu-ray on sale. Take The Fighter, for example. I'm going to buy it in a few days here in Canada for $10. The Apple Store's price in Canada for The Fighter is currently $24.99 for a 720P version and $19.99 for the SD version. Um, decisions, decisions. Do I spend $10 for a 1080P version of the movie burned onto stable media that will likely last for many years or spend more than twice that amount for a 720P version that I will not have a physical copy of.
As for your claim that no one sells Blu-rays any more, really? My question to you is, what currently operating major retailers who would sell such items are not selling Blu-rays?
Hard though this might be to believe, every single consumer is not a 25-year-old male who refuses to do anything but download movies or music. There is a fragmentation taking place that is causing the pie to be cut into pieces rather than one format all but dominating. That's not a bad thing.
DRM at OS level.
Not really.
So rip them to your iTunes library like I did with my HD DVDs.
How did you do that, if you don't mind my asking.
How did you do that, if you don't mind my asking.
AnyDVD HD, I believe. Then TXMuxer-somethingorother. Handbrake after that to get it into iTunes. Been a while since I needed to rip a movie, so that could be wrong...
AnyDVD HD, I believe. Then TXMuxer-somethingorother. Handbrake after that to get it into iTunes. Been a while since I needed to rip a movie, so that could be wrong...
And how did you read the HD-DVD on the Mac in the first place?
Your confusion stems from mixing up renting movies and buying them outright. The death of physical media as a source of rentals is a reality. People generally don't go out and pick up physical media when they're renting and rental locales are dying off. But it's entirely another matter when talking physical media and buying a movie outright. What we're seeing and are likely to see for the foreseeable future are several different approaches to distributing permanently purchased copies of movies. Downloads and physical media like Blu-ray and DVD do and will continue to co-exist.
I'm not saying physical media will go away overnight like it did with Music, it will take longer. Eventually it will happen though. It is a question of economics.
As to the desire to have physical media I honestly understand that, especially for backups. It is just that the physical media no longer has to be an optical disk. It can be a hard disk, a disk array, an SD card, or optical. Even then it looks like Apples goal is to do away with the need to even have a physical backup with iCloud.
I don't think you grasp just how much more expensive it is to buy a movie from a download service like Apple's vs. picking up that same title in Blu-ray on sale. Take The Fighter, for example. I'm going to buy it in a few days here in Canada for $10. The Apple Store's price in Canada for The Fighter is currently $24.99 for a 720P version and $19.99 for the SD version. Um, decisions, decisions. Do I spend $10 for a 1080P version of the movie burned onto stable media that will likely last for many years or spend more than twice that amount for a 720P version that I will not have a physical copy of.
Actually I grasp the situation rather well. I do use iTunes when it makes sense and buy DVd's when that makes sense. I just add the DVDs to my iTunes library to make them readily available. At times Apples pricing is a little excessive but not all the time. As for the arguments about 720P or 1080P it might make a difference if I had a large screen or a burning desire to get one but I don't.
As for your claim that no one sells Blu-rays any more, really? My question to you is, what currently operating major retailers who would sell such items are not selling Blu-rays?
It is about the future of stores selling optical media in general. I don't know where you live but they have been closing up right and left where I live even some big chains.
Hard though this might be to believe, every single consumer is not a 25-year-old male who refuses to do anything but download movies or music.
This may be hard to believe also but I'm +50 and have seen many things come and go over the years. Do you Remember laser disks and some of the other formats of the past? What you have been offering up here is frankly the same thoughts that the laser disk owners had. Blu-Ray is not the last word in the distribution of movies and honestly is a very poor way to treat consumers. It will go away like many other abusive attempts to coerce consumers into surrendering to corporate initiatives.
There is a fragmentation taking place that is causing the pie to be cut into pieces rather than one format all but dominating. That's not a bad thing.
Yeah like I said I've heard this all before. Now that doesn't mean that Sony won't wake up and smell the roses with Blu Ray and do more to make it a universal standard, but as it is now Blu-ray is a pathetic failure. Any one with any sense would stay away from the whole mess that is Blu-Ray.
And how did you read the HD-DVD on the Mac in the first place?
By putting it in. Same with the single Blu-ray disc I have (Serenity). You don't need OS-level support to read from the discs, just to get around the draconian DRM on them.
All versions of OS X since at least Tiger can see mounted HD DVD discs, and probably Blu-ray.
Heck, you can even PLAY BLU-RAY AND HD DVD discs in OS X. No Windows needed.
Put it in, open a program called MakeMKV, and push the disc stream out to VLC. It'll play in VLC.
Not simple, not very Apple-like, but playback from the disc itself WORKS.