And it does it faster and better. Sure, people might have to get great new peripherals instead of using their legacy stuff. Sometimes, people need to be dragged kicking and screaming into the future.
I'm still amazed that people think TB will be viable for keyboards anytime soon. USB does very well as a low speed serial link, it makes no sense at all to try to replace it with TB.
I'm still amazed that people think TB will be viable for keyboards anytime soon. USB does very well as a low speed serial link, it makes no sense at all to try to replace it with TB.
They said the same thing about PS/2 and serial. It's all about what's cheaper.
And it does it faster and better. Sure, people might have to get great new peripherals instead of using their legacy stuff. Sometimes, people need to be dragged kicking and screaming into the future.
Yes and some people need to understand technology.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism
Why are you still on this? You want to know about suffering, consider a dual-layer Blu-ray disc in your Mac portable on a plane trying to get through a movie. Not only will you have noise and vibration from the drive on your setback tray you'll also get a very poor battery life. Hopefully you can watch the whole movie before your system dies or you're lucky enough to be on a flight/seating class with plugs.
But you don't mean Macs notebooks, you mean Mac desktops? As Schiller showed not two weeks ago 3/4 Macs sold are Mac notebooks. Then factor in the number that are Mac Minis, their cheapest Mac. Now consider that the drives for all those machines didn't exist in the market 2 years ago and a 9.5mm ultra-slim slot-loading Blu-ray drive is still going for around $500 from other vendors last time I checked.
Now consider how stale and useless the desktop line up is. I have no doubts that Apples desktop line is suffering sales wise. One only needs to look at what is offered up to realize people have been a sleep at the wheel for far to long.
Quote:
So tell me why Blu-ray in a Mac notebook at a $500+ price or Blu-ray in one of the lesser selling Macs Apple sells is so damn important?! Blu-ray is great for a HOME THEATER. I bet everyone of those guys on stage last week at WWDC, including Jobs, have Blu-ray players in their homes… but they have them on their big ass HDTVs, not pointless in their Macs computers, right where they belong.
Pointless! There are some rational arguments for Blu-Ray. The problem is optical is dying rather quickly as a distribution method.
One of the reasons I've expressed interest in an optical free MBP is simply that I can better use that space for other things. That is me but I do acknowledge that others ave a legitimate need for Blu-Ray. I just don't think a lot of the people promoting Blu-Ray on this forum have a clue. Optical as a media distribution method, in this case movies, won't be around much longer. What is surprising is that so many dont see it coming.
They said the same thing about PS/2 and serial. It's all about what's cheaper.
There are many reasons but one is the greatly reduced development effort. If not RS232 then the interface is often Ethernet. Cheaper is certainly part of the equation and that is one reason why I don't see TB displacing USB anytime soon. Especially considering Apple is placing demands on suppliers that will make it difficult to trim costs.
There are many reasons but one is the greatly reduced development effort. If not RS232 then the interface is often Ethernet. Cheaper is certainly part of the equation and that is one reason why I don't see TB displacing USB anytime soon. Especially considering Apple is placing demands on suppliers that will make it difficult to trim costs.
I agree that we won't see TB used for keyboards and mice, but I disagree with initial assessment. Tallest Skil makes a sounds point about USB 2.0 already being overkill for the minimal data of a keyboard and mouse. Don't fall into the "we'll never need more than 512KB RAM" trap; I know you well aware of how usage can change.
Speaking of usage, notebooks have their keyboard and pointing device built-in and even thought they are USB-based it's moot to the discussion so we can exclude them. That leaves desktop-class PCs. Aren't they typically shipping with wireless BT keyboard and mice (I think HP or Dell also has an 802.11 keyboard/mouse for whatever reason)?
But I digress, I can conceive of reasons why a TB capable keyboard could be handy. Since it offers more power than USB and is faster you could plug in certain peripherals into a keychain with a daisy-chained TB port that you couldn't in a USB keyboard. This potentially opens up the door for certain types of computing. Maybe even the entire PC in the keyboard with just a TB to a monitor and whatever else you wish to connect to.
Went to a Thunderbolt seminar today and there were some interesting comments made by the Apple rep and other presenters.
I won't go out on a limb and predict that the Mac Pro is dead, but it definitely appears headed that way, at least in it's current form.
I don't doubt that one bit. Maybe our reasoning isn't the same but it is pretty obvious that Apples desktop lineup is a dead zone.
Quote:
To sum it up, the Apple rep kept inferring that PCI-E is basically a dead end.
That knida blows his credibility right there.
Quote:
Apple is requiring that all official Thunderbolt device be able to pass through the video signal.
read another way Apple insists that all TB devices be expensive.
Quote:
That would require the design of a Thunderbolt video card for the Mac Pro which, according to one of the other presenters, is not impossible, but very difficult. If a third party vendor decided to come out with a data only Thunderbolt card, it would be without Apple's blessing.
First if the standard is truly open vendors will do whatever they want.
As to the Mac Pro it is not a problem to put a GPU on the motherboard. in a year or two your APUs will be so powerful as to compete fine without a discrete GPU.
Quote:
The Apple rep kept talking about PCI-E breakout boxes becoming available to allow people to be able to use their legacy PCI-E cards with a laptop or iMac.
Incredibly dumb if you ask me. TB simply doesn't have the bandwidth.
Quote:
Dave
Nice post Dave! However your description here of Apples behavior reinforces the idea that Apple sees TB as a solution to a different problem than uSB. In any eve Ty least ere is a mad rush to adopt in the PC world I don't see TB ever becoming an inexpensive solution.
I agree that we won't see TB used for keyboards and mice, but I disagree with initial assessment. Tallest Skil makes a sounds point about USB 2.0 already being overkill for the minimal data of a keyboard and mouse. Don't fall into the "we'll never need more than 512KB RAM" trap; I know you well aware of how usage can change.
The point is the cost of development. Interfaces like RS232 and Ethernet are still around because of the economics of trying to develop hardware with a USB or other modern interface. It isn't just hardware, it is programming effort, debug and development infrastructure.
Quote:
Speaking of usage, notebooks have their keyboard and pointing device built-in and even thought they are USB-based it's moot to the discussion so we can exclude them. That leaves desktop-class PCs. Aren't they typically shipping with wireless BT keyboard and mice (I think HP or Dell also has an 802.11 keyboard/mouse for whatever reason)?
In a modern computer many if not most slow speed I/O goes through a USB interface. That is not likely to change with TB either. What would be the point of hooking up a keyboard to TB (In a laptop).
Quote:
But I digress, I can conceive of reasons why a TB capable keyboard could be handy. Since it offers more power than USB and is faster you could plug in certain peripherals into a keychain with a daisy-chained TB port that you couldn't in a USB keyboard. This potentially opens up the door for certain types of computing. Maybe even the entire PC in the keyboard with just a TB to a monitor and whatever else you wish to connect to.
I've seen nothing to indicate that Apple is even remotely interested in saddling TB with such I/O chores. Apple knows better.
Yes and some people need to understand technology.
Now consider how stale and useless the desktop line up is. I have no doubts that Apples desktop line is suffering sales wise. One only needs to look at what is offered up to realize people have been a sleep at the wheel for far to long.
Pointless! There are some rational arguments for Blu-Ray. The problem is optical is dying rather quickly as a distribution method.
One of the reasons I've expressed interest in an optical free MBP is simply that I can better use that space for other things. That is me but I do acknowledge that others ave a legitimate need for Blu-Ray. I just don't think a lot of the people promoting Blu-Ray on this forum have a clue. Optical as a media distribution method, in this case movies, won't be around much longer. What is surprising is that so many dont see it coming.
For millions, optical is dead and for millions of others, optical is alive and well. I really don't understand why it has to be one or the other. When television came along it was thought that movie-going was doomed. It changed but it didn't disappear. Different technologies can co-exist. This is especially the case now because of the sheer number of folks in the world today.
I think there is a misconception that if abandoning optical discs has happened for one group of people, it has to happen for everyone else. Not so.
I don't give a damn, Scarlet, what it looks like to you, but it looks like this to me:
I'm not going to "register" for something I don't need just to fix other people's mistakes.
Seeing these confounded frogs is one reason some of us bemoan the loss of iDisk.
You're not missing anything on this occasion, just a badly photoshopped picture of Mr T with Blu-Ray discs for earrings responding to the question of 'what fool would take Blu-Ray discs on a plane?' by saying 'Not me, I ain't gettin' on no plane'. He pities the fools who do but he himself ain't gettin' on no plane. His Blu-Ray discs are exclusively for non-aviatory use.
It seems imageshack might be blocked in China. I used to use Tinypic but it was giving me problems uploading. I'll try using it again though so you don't miss out on the fun.
Well, since I'm not in China, per se, nor under its legal jurisdiction (one country, two systems and all that jazz), I assume it must be blocked in Hong Kong as well. I thought it was an imageshack specific thing, and I apologize for the tone.
Comments
All of that can be done via T-Bolt. Even E-net!!
And it does it faster and better. Sure, people might have to get great new peripherals instead of using their legacy stuff. Sometimes, people need to be dragged kicking and screaming into the future.
I'm still amazed that people think TB will be viable for keyboards anytime soon. USB does very well as a low speed serial link, it makes no sense at all to try to replace it with TB.
I'm still amazed that people think TB will be viable for keyboards anytime soon. USB does very well as a low speed serial link, it makes no sense at all to try to replace it with TB.
They said the same thing about PS/2 and serial. It's all about what's cheaper.
All of that can be done via T-Bolt. Even E-net!!
And it does it faster and better. Sure, people might have to get great new peripherals instead of using their legacy stuff. Sometimes, people need to be dragged kicking and screaming into the future.
Yes and some people need to understand technology.
Why are you still on this? You want to know about suffering, consider a dual-layer Blu-ray disc in your Mac portable on a plane trying to get through a movie. Not only will you have noise and vibration from the drive on your setback tray you'll also get a very poor battery life. Hopefully you can watch the whole movie before your system dies or you're lucky enough to be on a flight/seating class with plugs.
But you don't mean Macs notebooks, you mean Mac desktops? As Schiller showed not two weeks ago 3/4 Macs sold are Mac notebooks. Then factor in the number that are Mac Minis, their cheapest Mac. Now consider that the drives for all those machines didn't exist in the market 2 years ago and a 9.5mm ultra-slim slot-loading Blu-ray drive is still going for around $500 from other vendors last time I checked.
Now consider how stale and useless the desktop line up is. I have no doubts that Apples desktop line is suffering sales wise. One only needs to look at what is offered up to realize people have been a sleep at the wheel for far to long.
So tell me why Blu-ray in a Mac notebook at a $500+ price or Blu-ray in one of the lesser selling Macs Apple sells is so damn important?! Blu-ray is great for a HOME THEATER. I bet everyone of those guys on stage last week at WWDC, including Jobs, have Blu-ray players in their homes… but they have them on their big ass HDTVs, not pointless in their Macs computers, right where they belong.
Pointless! There are some rational arguments for Blu-Ray. The problem is optical is dying rather quickly as a distribution method.
One of the reasons I've expressed interest in an optical free MBP is simply that I can better use that space for other things. That is me but I do acknowledge that others ave a legitimate need for Blu-Ray. I just don't think a lot of the people promoting Blu-Ray on this forum have a clue. Optical as a media distribution method, in this case movies, won't be around much longer. What is surprising is that so many dont see it coming.
They said the same thing about PS/2 and serial. It's all about what's cheaper.
There are many reasons but one is the greatly reduced development effort. If not RS232 then the interface is often Ethernet. Cheaper is certainly part of the equation and that is one reason why I don't see TB displacing USB anytime soon. Especially considering Apple is placing demands on suppliers that will make it difficult to trim costs.
There are many reasons but one is the greatly reduced development effort. If not RS232 then the interface is often Ethernet. Cheaper is certainly part of the equation and that is one reason why I don't see TB displacing USB anytime soon. Especially considering Apple is placing demands on suppliers that will make it difficult to trim costs.
I agree that we won't see TB used for keyboards and mice, but I disagree with initial assessment. Tallest Skil makes a sounds point about USB 2.0 already being overkill for the minimal data of a keyboard and mouse. Don't fall into the "we'll never need more than 512KB RAM" trap; I know you well aware of how usage can change.
Speaking of usage, notebooks have their keyboard and pointing device built-in and even thought they are USB-based it's moot to the discussion so we can exclude them. That leaves desktop-class PCs. Aren't they typically shipping with wireless BT keyboard and mice (I think HP or Dell also has an 802.11 keyboard/mouse for whatever reason)?
But I digress, I can conceive of reasons why a TB capable keyboard could be handy. Since it offers more power than USB and is faster you could plug in certain peripherals into a keychain with a daisy-chained TB port that you couldn't in a USB keyboard. This potentially opens up the door for certain types of computing. Maybe even the entire PC in the keyboard with just a TB to a monitor and whatever else you wish to connect to.
Went to a Thunderbolt seminar today and there were some interesting comments made by the Apple rep and other presenters.
I won't go out on a limb and predict that the Mac Pro is dead, but it definitely appears headed that way, at least in it's current form.
I don't doubt that one bit. Maybe our reasoning isn't the same but it is pretty obvious that Apples desktop lineup is a dead zone.
To sum it up, the Apple rep kept inferring that PCI-E is basically a dead end.
That knida blows his credibility right there.
Apple is requiring that all official Thunderbolt device be able to pass through the video signal.
read another way Apple insists that all TB devices be expensive.
That would require the design of a Thunderbolt video card for the Mac Pro which, according to one of the other presenters, is not impossible, but very difficult. If a third party vendor decided to come out with a data only Thunderbolt card, it would be without Apple's blessing.
First if the standard is truly open vendors will do whatever they want.
As to the Mac Pro it is not a problem to put a GPU on the motherboard. in a year or two your APUs will be so powerful as to compete fine without a discrete GPU.
The Apple rep kept talking about PCI-E breakout boxes becoming available to allow people to be able to use their legacy PCI-E cards with a laptop or iMac.
Incredibly dumb if you ask me. TB simply doesn't have the bandwidth.
Dave
Nice post Dave! However your description here of Apples behavior reinforces the idea that Apple sees TB as a solution to a different problem than uSB. In any eve Ty least ere is a mad rush to adopt in the PC world I don't see TB ever becoming an inexpensive solution.
I agree that we won't see TB used for keyboards and mice, but I disagree with initial assessment. Tallest Skil makes a sounds point about USB 2.0 already being overkill for the minimal data of a keyboard and mouse. Don't fall into the "we'll never need more than 512KB RAM" trap; I know you well aware of how usage can change.
The point is the cost of development. Interfaces like RS232 and Ethernet are still around because of the economics of trying to develop hardware with a USB or other modern interface. It isn't just hardware, it is programming effort, debug and development infrastructure.
Speaking of usage, notebooks have their keyboard and pointing device built-in and even thought they are USB-based it's moot to the discussion so we can exclude them. That leaves desktop-class PCs. Aren't they typically shipping with wireless BT keyboard and mice (I think HP or Dell also has an 802.11 keyboard/mouse for whatever reason)?
In a modern computer many if not most slow speed I/O goes through a USB interface. That is not likely to change with TB either. What would be the point of hooking up a keyboard to TB (In a laptop).
But I digress, I can conceive of reasons why a TB capable keyboard could be handy. Since it offers more power than USB and is faster you could plug in certain peripherals into a keychain with a daisy-chained TB port that you couldn't in a USB keyboard. This potentially opens up the door for certain types of computing. Maybe even the entire PC in the keyboard with just a TB to a monitor and whatever else you wish to connect to.
I've seen nothing to indicate that Apple is even remotely interested in saddling TB with such I/O chores. Apple knows better.
Yes and some people need to understand technology.
Now consider how stale and useless the desktop line up is. I have no doubts that Apples desktop line is suffering sales wise. One only needs to look at what is offered up to realize people have been a sleep at the wheel for far to long.
Pointless! There are some rational arguments for Blu-Ray. The problem is optical is dying rather quickly as a distribution method.
One of the reasons I've expressed interest in an optical free MBP is simply that I can better use that space for other things. That is me but I do acknowledge that others ave a legitimate need for Blu-Ray. I just don't think a lot of the people promoting Blu-Ray on this forum have a clue. Optical as a media distribution method, in this case movies, won't be around much longer. What is surprising is that so many dont see it coming.
For millions, optical is dead and for millions of others, optical is alive and well. I really don't understand why it has to be one or the other. When television came along it was thought that movie-going was doomed. It changed but it didn't disappear. Different technologies can co-exist. This is especially the case now because of the sheer number of folks in the world today.
I think there is a misconception that if abandoning optical discs has happened for one group of people, it has to happen for everyone else. Not so.
Marvin, could you PLEASE stop using imageshack!?
I don't give a damn, Scarlet, what it looks like to you, but it looks like this to me:
I'm not going to "register" for something I don't need just to fix other people's mistakes.
Seeing these confounded frogs is one reason some of us bemoan the loss of iDisk.
Marvin, could you PLEASE stop using imageshack!?
I don't give a damn, Scarlet, what it looks like to you, but it looks like this to me:
I'm not going to "register" for something I don't need just to fix other people's mistakes.
Seeing these confounded frogs is one reason some of us bemoan the loss of iDisk.
You're not missing anything on this occasion, just a badly photoshopped picture of Mr T with Blu-Ray discs for earrings responding to the question of 'what fool would take Blu-Ray discs on a plane?' by saying 'Not me, I ain't gettin' on no plane'. He pities the fools who do but he himself ain't gettin' on no plane. His Blu-Ray discs are exclusively for non-aviatory use.
It seems imageshack might be blocked in China. I used to use Tinypic but it was giving me problems uploading. I'll try using it again though so you don't miss out on the fun.
It seems imageshack might be blocked in China.
Well, since I'm not in China, per se, nor under its legal jurisdiction (one country, two systems and all that jazz), I assume it must be blocked in Hong Kong as well. I thought it was an imageshack specific thing, and I apologize for the tone.