[quote]Daponte, a staff demographer at the Census Bureau, was assigned to estimate Iraq's population as part of her job of producing country-by-country population estimates.
The University of Chicago-trained sociologist says she got permission to speak to any expert and use the best data from any source. She recalls she was given a few months, rather than the usual few days. She says she expected that her findings, like all others, would be printed in an unclassified report.
Her conclusion: 86,194 men, 39,612 women, and 32,195 children died in one year as a direct and indirect result of the U.S.-led attack and the ensuing Shiite and Kurdish rebellions.
About a quarter, 40,000, were Iraqi soldiers killed in combat.
The rest were civilians, including 13,000 who got caught in the cross fire. About 70,000 civilians died after the war due mainly to the destruction of water and power plants.
"I would do the work differently now... . We'd present the numbers as a range instead of a single estimate," she said. "But I still stand by those numbers."
When a Greenpeace activist made her tally public, the Census Bureau balked. The White House and Defense Department had just said no Iraqi casualty estimate was possible. Now a lowly number-cruncher had proclaimed tens of thousands dead.
Within days, the Census Bureau notified Daponte that she was going to be fired, saying she had falsified data and skirted a peer review. Her report was rewritten to suggest fewer civilian deaths, although it eventually survived as one of the few expert casualty estimates.
Daponte challenged her dismissal and eventually refuted the charges. But she found herself without any assignments and forbidden to speak or write about Iraq.<hr></blockquote><a href="http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/2003/01/05/news/nation/4874382.htm"; target="_blank">Philly Inquirer</a>
[quote]You've got some completely bogus numbers there. Post war resconstructions of actual Iraqi division strengths and confirmation of desertion rates make that number at least 4x too big, and that estimate is considered "fat". Those aren't
Anders civilians either, those were combatants. Civilian casualties were never confirmed to even approach 1000 despite early reports otherwise.<hr></blockquote>
Why are you quibbling? Aren't you proud that our boys wasted nearly a quarter million sand niggers? Where's your patriotic fervor?
The 200000 figure was taken from a declassified CIA document which was quoted in the media some 3 years back. But...take a CIA figure with a *very large* pinch of salt...they aren't exactly renowned for their honesty, are they now? I could also quote you some human rights organizations' casualty estimates but I doubt you would give that the time of day.
Is that a pro-life position? I don't see how religious people can be in favor of this. Even if killing many Iraqis in a war does ultimately save more lives (and that's debateable, but let's assume it's true), isn't that an ends-justify-means position? We shouldn't destroy stem cells to save people's lives, because it's wrong to kill. So why should we kill innocent Iraqis in order to save more lives in the future?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I have already debated on this topic, I will not debate it again. It says thou shalt not murder. There is nothing in the Bible against war directly. The bible speaks about obeying those in authority over us, such as GWB.
I do not wish for war, but if it comes (and it looks like it will) I want us to win it, not to pussy foot around.
If it comes to war, one has to choose a side. With that, I offer up this prayer:
"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle -- be Thou near them! With them -- in spirit -- we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it -- for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.
(After a pause.) "Ye have prayed it; if ye still desire it, speak! The messenger of the Most High waits!"
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said.
I have already debated on this topic, I will not debate it again. It says thou shalt not murder. There is nothing in the Bible against war directly. The bible speaks about obeying those in authority over us, such as GWB.
I do not wish for war, but if it comes (and it looks like it will) I want us to win it, not to pussy foot around.</strong><hr></blockquote>I'm not suggesting you commit treason, I'm just curious about how pro-life people (in the broad sense, not just wrt abortion) could be for this war. I did notice that the Pope doesn't think too highly of Bush's Iraq position (that's an understatement). And many of the biggest anti-war groups during VietNam were priests and nuns.
I'm wondering where they are now? But you're not going to debate this, so...
[quote]The bible speaks about obeying those in authority over us, such as GWB.<hr></blockquote>This is a democracy assh*le. The twit GWB works for the people. He is not in authority over us. Christ, George Washington must be spinning in his grave somewhere.
<strong>This is a democracy assh*le. The twit GWB works for the people. He is not in authority over us. Christ, George Washington must be spinning in his grave somewhere.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I hate it when people tell this to me, but the US is a Republic, not so much a democracy, or so I've been told. Even so, the American spirit is to revolt against tyrants and not to consider any leader as royalty.
That's why I don't like voting for Kennedys and Bushes. What the hell happened to the American spirit?
<strong>There is nothing in the Bible against war directly.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You're absolutely right about that. In fact, quite the opposite:
10 When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it.
11 And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee.
12 And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:
13 And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:
14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations.
16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
<strong>This is a democracy assh*le. The twit GWB works for the people. He is not in authority over us. Christ, George Washington must be spinning in his grave somewhere.</strong><hr></blockquote>
As has been stated this is republic, Listen to the Pledge of Alliegence sometime, or read the Constitution. We are a Republic of the people, for the people, by the people. However, the people vote to elect officials and GWB is the current official in office. He is the Commander in Chief of the millitary and they HAVE to go to war if he says so. So they are bound by the scripture I quoted directly to GWB's orders. You have also elected all the senators, governors and other officials that are elected and by doing so you give them authority over you. Try telling the next police officer tht pulls you over for speeding that this is a democracy and they do not have any authority over you because they work for you. See what kind of ticket they write you with a big smile on their face. The president has way more authority than any police officer. He is in authority over you unless there is an official recall of the president or an impeachment. Therefore, yes, he was elected by the public, and even if you did not vote for him you are now under his authority as president. Get over it.
Funny. I have always thought that the causing of death of others was even more without class</strong><hr></blockquote>
Also, upon further thought this occurred to me. What is worse:
1) Going to war against a potentially hostile nation with a history of chemical weapons use against its own people and surrounding nations (some of which are our allies).
2) Making a thread that places bets on who will live and die is said war in order to "Come on and make the war fun "
That is what I thought. That is all the authority he needs. You cannot do anything about it as you are in Yoorup, however if there is really a national need to remove him from office there is a Constitutional way to do it. Othewise people just need to accept what they cannot change and try to change that which they can. So, until he is out of office they are under his authority as set up in the Constitution, and if they are Christians, as was set up in the scirptures.
Also, upon further thought this occurred to me. What is worse:
1) Going to war against a potentially hostile nation with a history of chemical weapons use against its own people and surrounding nations (some of which are our allies).
2) Making a thread that places bets on who will live and die is said war in order to "Come on and make the war fun "
Also, upon further thought this occurred to me. What is worse:
1) Going to war against a potentially hostile nation with a history of chemical weapons use against its own people and surrounding nations (some of which are our allies).
2) Making a thread that places bets on who will live and die is said war in order to "Come on and make the war fun "
You think making sick jokes is worse than making war?
You think making jokes about people dying is worse than killing them?
You are one messed up cat.</strong><hr></blockquote>
In terms of what he said about lacking class, yes. Wars are only waged out of necessity. Jokes are not. Finding any humor in the deaths of others is truly disturbing to me. Advocating the deaths of others is as well. War is neither. If Iaq were to fully comply with all the UN resoltuions right now, war would be averted. He will not because he has plans for those chemical weapons. He has shown what he will do with them in the past, even in times of no war. What makes any of you sure he will not do it again? This war from all I can see is completley justified and I do pray that the loss of life will be limited. However, in war lives are lost and there is such thing as a just war. I believe this to be one so I have no problem saying that making sick jokes about how many will be killed to "make the war fun" is truly out of the boundaries of all class. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" />
Rumsfeld: We are preparing a war against Iraq but war is a bad thing and we will try everything to avoid it. The build up is to put the highest pressure on Iraq.
France, Germany and Russia: Well we have a plan that might do the job and doesn´t include the killing of innoncent iraqis.
Rumsfeld: Well its too late now.
FGR: But you said that we should try ever....
Rumsfeld: I said TOO LATE. And since you are not supporting us now shut up.
[quote]As has been stated this is republic, Listen to the Pledge of Alliegence sometime, or read the Constitution. We are a Republic of the people, for the people, by the people. However, the people vote to elect officials and GWB is the current official in office. He is the Commander in Chief of the millitary and they HAVE to go to war if he says so. So they are bound by the scripture I quoted directly to GWB's orders<hr></blockquote>Nope, the military is bound by the oath they take to uphold the Constitution of the United States. Says nothing about obeying the President, except that the POTUS is the commander-in-chief of US forces, says even less about scripture. The phrase 'under God' was not added to the Pledge until 1954, after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, who thought that the country needed something to distinguish it from the godless communist hordes--as if freedom of speech and the rest of the Bill of Rights weren't enough.
The US is still a secular republic and no one is bound to obey scripture, except perhaps the fundamentalist f*ckwits who think that Jeebus shines down on our glorious land above all others.
Comments
The University of Chicago-trained sociologist says she got permission to speak to any expert and use the best data from any source. She recalls she was given a few months, rather than the usual few days. She says she expected that her findings, like all others, would be printed in an unclassified report.
Her conclusion: 86,194 men, 39,612 women, and 32,195 children died in one year as a direct and indirect result of the U.S.-led attack and the ensuing Shiite and Kurdish rebellions.
About a quarter, 40,000, were Iraqi soldiers killed in combat.
The rest were civilians, including 13,000 who got caught in the cross fire. About 70,000 civilians died after the war due mainly to the destruction of water and power plants.
"I would do the work differently now... . We'd present the numbers as a range instead of a single estimate," she said. "But I still stand by those numbers."
When a Greenpeace activist made her tally public, the Census Bureau balked. The White House and Defense Department had just said no Iraqi casualty estimate was possible. Now a lowly number-cruncher had proclaimed tens of thousands dead.
Within days, the Census Bureau notified Daponte that she was going to be fired, saying she had falsified data and skirted a peer review. Her report was rewritten to suggest fewer civilian deaths, although it eventually survived as one of the few expert casualty estimates.
Daponte challenged her dismissal and eventually refuted the charges. But she found herself without any assignments and forbidden to speak or write about Iraq.<hr></blockquote><a href="http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/2003/01/05/news/nation/4874382.htm"; target="_blank">Philly Inquirer</a>
Where are you getting your numbers from?
Anders civilians either, those were combatants. Civilian casualties were never confirmed to even approach 1000 despite early reports otherwise.<hr></blockquote>
Why are you quibbling? Aren't you proud that our boys wasted nearly a quarter million sand niggers? Where's your patriotic fervor?
The 200000 figure was taken from a declassified CIA document which was quoted in the media some 3 years back. But...take a CIA figure with a *very large* pinch of salt...they aren't exactly renowned for their honesty, are they now? I could also quote you some human rights organizations' casualty estimates but I doubt you would give that the time of day.
[ 02-12-2003: Message edited by: Samantha Joanne Ollendale ]</p>
<strong>Hmmm. So, "thou shalt not kill*
*unless it is meaningful."
Is that a pro-life position? I don't see how religious people can be in favor of this. Even if killing many Iraqis in a war does ultimately save more lives (and that's debateable, but let's assume it's true), isn't that an ends-justify-means position? We shouldn't destroy stem cells to save people's lives, because it's wrong to kill. So why should we kill innocent Iraqis in order to save more lives in the future?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I have already debated on this topic, I will not debate it again. It says thou shalt not murder. There is nothing in the Bible against war directly. The bible speaks about obeying those in authority over us, such as GWB.
I do not wish for war, but if it comes (and it looks like it will) I want us to win it, not to pussy foot around.
"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle -- be Thou near them! With them -- in spirit -- we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it -- for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.
(After a pause.) "Ye have prayed it; if ye still desire it, speak! The messenger of the Most High waits!"
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said.
- The War Prayer, Mark Twain
<strong>
I have already debated on this topic, I will not debate it again. It says thou shalt not murder. There is nothing in the Bible against war directly. The bible speaks about obeying those in authority over us, such as GWB.
I do not wish for war, but if it comes (and it looks like it will) I want us to win it, not to pussy foot around.</strong><hr></blockquote>I'm not suggesting you commit treason, I'm just curious about how pro-life people (in the broad sense, not just wrt abortion) could be for this war. I did notice that the Pope doesn't think too highly of Bush's Iraq position (that's an understatement). And many of the biggest anti-war groups during VietNam were priests and nuns.
I'm wondering where they are now? But you're not going to debate this, so...
<strong>This is a democracy assh*le. The twit GWB works for the people. He is not in authority over us. Christ, George Washington must be spinning in his grave somewhere.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I hate it when people tell this to me, but the US is a Republic, not so much a democracy, or so I've been told. Even so, the American spirit is to revolt against tyrants and not to consider any leader as royalty.
That's why I don't like voting for Kennedys and Bushes. What the hell happened to the American spirit?
<strong>There is nothing in the Bible against war directly.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You're absolutely right about that. In fact, quite the opposite:
10 When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it.
11 And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee.
12 And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:
13 And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:
14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations.
16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
Deuteronomy 20:10-16
...just providing a page from Bush's playbook
<strong>This is a democracy assh*le. The twit GWB works for the people. He is not in authority over us. Christ, George Washington must be spinning in his grave somewhere.</strong><hr></blockquote>
As has been stated this is republic, Listen to the Pledge of Alliegence sometime, or read the Constitution. We are a Republic of the people, for the people, by the people. However, the people vote to elect officials and GWB is the current official in office. He is the Commander in Chief of the millitary and they HAVE to go to war if he says so. So they are bound by the scripture I quoted directly to GWB's orders. You have also elected all the senators, governors and other officials that are elected and by doing so you give them authority over you. Try telling the next police officer tht pulls you over for speeding that this is a democracy and they do not have any authority over you because they work for you. See what kind of ticket they write you with a big smile on their face. The president has way more authority than any police officer. He is in authority over you unless there is an official recall of the president or an impeachment. Therefore, yes, he was elected by the public, and even if you did not vote for him you are now under his authority as president. Get over it.
<strong>
Funny. I have always thought that the causing of death of others was even more without class</strong><hr></blockquote>
Also, upon further thought this occurred to me. What is worse:
1) Going to war against a potentially hostile nation with a history of chemical weapons use against its own people and surrounding nations (some of which are our allies).
2) Making a thread that places bets on who will live and die is said war in order to "Come on and make the war fun
<img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" /> <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" />
More people voted for Al Gore than George Bush.
Al Gore got more votes.
<strong>What about moral authority?
More people voted for Al Gore than George Bush.
Al Gore got more votes.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Who is in office? Who is the president right now?
That is what I thought. That is all the authority he needs. You cannot do anything about it as you are in Yoorup, however if there is really a national need to remove him from office there is a Constitutional way to do it. Othewise people just need to accept what they cannot change and try to change that which they can. So, until he is out of office they are under his authority as set up in the Constitution, and if they are Christians, as was set up in the scirptures.
<strong>
Also, upon further thought this occurred to me. What is worse:
1) Going to war against a potentially hostile nation with a history of chemical weapons use against its own people and surrounding nations (some of which are our allies).
2) Making a thread that places bets on who will live and die is said war in order to "Come on and make the war fun
<img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" /> <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
Are you serious?
You think making sick jokes is worse than making war?
You think making jokes about people dying is worse than killing them?
You are one messed up cat.
<strong>
Also, upon further thought this occurred to me. What is worse:
1) Going to war against a potentially hostile nation with a history of chemical weapons use against its own people and surrounding nations (some of which are our allies).
2) Making a thread that places bets on who will live and die is said war in order to "Come on and make the war fun
<img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" /> <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
3) Going into a war that is avoidable and will cost tens of thousands of lifes. And that before all other measures have been tried.
No class at all.
They aren't opposites or mutually exclusive in any way.
re-public, from the latin, means of the people and refers to the lack of a monarch and rule by the people.
<strong>
Are you serious?
You think making sick jokes is worse than making war?
You think making jokes about people dying is worse than killing them?
You are one messed up cat.</strong><hr></blockquote>
In terms of what he said about lacking class, yes. Wars are only waged out of necessity. Jokes are not. Finding any humor in the deaths of others is truly disturbing to me. Advocating the deaths of others is as well. War is neither. If Iaq were to fully comply with all the UN resoltuions right now, war would be averted. He will not because he has plans for those chemical weapons. He has shown what he will do with them in the past, even in times of no war. What makes any of you sure he will not do it again? This war from all I can see is completley justified and I do pray that the loss of life will be limited. However, in war lives are lost and there is such thing as a just war. I believe this to be one so I have no problem saying that making sick jokes about how many will be killed to "make the war fun" is truly out of the boundaries of all class. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" />
France, Germany and Russia: Well we have a plan that might do the job and doesn´t include the killing of innoncent iraqis.
Rumsfeld: Well its too late now.
FGR: But you said that we should try ever....
Rumsfeld: I said TOO LATE. And since you are not supporting us now shut up.
<strong>
3) Going into a war that is avoidable and will cost tens of thousands of lifes. And that before all other measures have been tried.
No class at all.</strong><hr></blockquote>
What else would you like see tried that has not been before?
The US is still a secular republic and no one is bound to obey scripture, except perhaps the fundamentalist f*ckwits who think that Jeebus shines down on our glorious land above all others.