Adobe courts video professionals in wake of uproar over Apple's Final Cut Pro X

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  • Reply 61 of 120
    modemode Posts: 163member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post


    Apple haven't screwed themselves at all. FCPX may as well be a huge neon sign stating "This is the direction Apple are heading".



    There was once a time when Apple's core product strength was supplying tools for a loyal userbase of dedicated creative professionals. That boat has long since sailed.



    Apple is now a consumer electronics company, providing devices for everyone from 5 year old kids to your grandmother.



    Every pro that Apple pissed off with the FCPX release will be replaced by another 100 aspiring kids cutting videos for YouTube.



    Been saying this for years, been called a troll and a hundred other things, but it's been clear as day the direction.

    Glossy screens, killed x-serves, garbage graphic drivers, closed iPad publication ecosystem, the iAd abortion, Keynote's complete lack of any security or a player, the sad bag o' hurt known as Snow Leopard, pathetic printer driver support... the list goes on and on.



    They are a consumer only company and I expect the Mac Pro will see it's last revision this year.

    That's fine, they seem to be doing well with that - but it's a hard slap to the face for the professional creative industries that kept them from completely dieing in the 90's.
  • Reply 62 of 120
    boeyc15boeyc15 Posts: 986member
    Apple answers some questions...



    http://www.apple.com/finalcutpro/faq/



    I'm not an editor, but a few comments regarding this ... Take with hefty grains of salt.



    For Apple to upgrade to 64bit would have meant losing all previous plug ins anyways. It likely would have meant a major disruption no matter what. Granted they should have been more upfront with missing feature update timeline. And EOLing FCP7 so quickly seems unwarranted, no reason not to have a translation period.

    Apple 'appears' to address most of the major short comings within the next few releases. It will just take time. Apple would do themselves a big favor and offer a transition support period for FCS3 for a period time... Say 18-24 months.



    Let the flaming continue...
  • Reply 63 of 120
    adamcadamc Posts: 573member
    I believe you say what you are when you reveal your real name so people in the industry who know you will let the rest of us know you are the real thing and not just a hack.
  • Reply 64 of 120
    frankiefrankie Posts: 372member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mstrat View Post


    As a professional editor, I was looking forward to Final Cut Pro X. I was completely willing to embrace a new way to edit.



    That said, my clients would never hire me again if I used what Apple's put out.



    Why?



    Well, when I cut features I have ensure that my audio tracks are organized properly for the sound mixer for OMF exports.



    Now there's a new way of thinking that I thought Apple could have approached to this process that would have been RADICALLY better and still not require that editors need to have tracks. But they didnt even think about it. Because they didnt care about thinking different with pros.



    When I cut stuff for TV. I am constantly sharing XMLs with compositors and graphics designers all the time.



    Not to mention EDLs for colorists...because there's no such thing as Color anymore.



    FC 7 doesnt do what I need that well today compared to other software (AVID and Adobe). I was considering switching to AVID (which I started cutting on years ago) actually a few months back, but some apple software team people encouraged me to hang in there.



    Shame on me.



    Back to AVID...



    Have fun. I HATE Avid.
  • Reply 65 of 120
    zephzeph Posts: 133member
    I'm not sure what the uproar is about.



    I worked in post for a long time, and I haven't seen many FCP users in that field. Most pros I knew used Avid or Media 100 and disdainfully considered FCP to be for wedding videos.



    That may have changed over the last 3 years, but I doubt it could have gained so much critical mass as to become the new industry standard?



    This is an interesting take from a former Shake designer:



    http://www.macrumors.com/2011/06/28/...ut-pro-market/
  • Reply 66 of 120
    zephzeph Posts: 133member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mode View Post


    but it's a hard slap to the face for the professional creative industries that kept them from completely dieing in the 90's.



    In fairness, it wasn't us who kept them afloat, but a $150,000,000 capital injection from Microsoft. without that it would have been curtains anyway.
  • Reply 67 of 120
    pbrstreetgpbrstreetg Posts: 184member
    I wish some of you that switched to Mac would go back to PC. There are far more idiots on the Mac side now and their zealotry is amusing but boring over time. Apple HAS admitted in the most significant way that FCP-X is NOT a professional grade product by issuing refunds to people that had expected that it would be an upgrade to FCP7. There is no blathering from apologist that will change that. Go cry to Apple and ask for a retraction of refunds but it has already happened.



    For the rest of you people that think that David Pogue is computer scientist or engineer, FCP-X is an excellent $300 upgrade from iMovie. Enjoy making home movies.



    The biggest distinction on these forums are professionals that make money from Apple products and those that make Apple money from buying their products. The latter being clueless on what production or enterprise grade hardware and software is. Professional hold technology companies to a high standard and apologists will justify any illogical product life cycle refresh because they can't see a bigger picture, just that something is new and marketed as better.
  • Reply 68 of 120
    fearlessfearless Posts: 138member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post


    “You watch television to turn your brain off and you work on your computer when you want to turn your brain on.” –Steve Jobs



    Computing for Jobs has always been about making things better and engaging your brain at all times. If Premiere is a safe heaven for your skills and you are unwilling to learn new paths then perhaps it is the platform for you.



    Well, that's just a little short on detail. Plenty of attitude, not a lot of appreciation of how professionals work using this stuff. I guess it's assertions like that within Apple that led them to this splendid moment in their relationship with key customers and vocal opinion leaders. Win!
  • Reply 69 of 120
    fearlessfearless Posts: 138member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by akhomerun View Post


    i agree. i don't understand the importing issue. you started a film on FCP7. You finish it on FCP7. Don't you just start your next film on the new version? where is importing needed?



    Importing is needed when the producer comes back to you in 18 months and wants to recut for a different purpose. Do you actually work in this field? Some projects stay alive for years. Just when you think they're over, in they walk again.



    So, the new version of Word won't read the novel you wrote two years ago that you thought had gone as far as it would. Then someone wants it. You can print it out though, and scan it, and send jpegs, or retype if you want to change something. What's wrong with that?
  • Reply 70 of 120
    mdriftmeyermdriftmeyer Posts: 7,281member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by september11th View Post


    I don't expect FCP7 users to switch to Adobe or FCPX in the near future, but as of now Apple is no longer supporting FCP7. The problem is, there is no guarantee at all that Apple will truly fix FCPX and give it all the features it used to have. The choice to close it down so much was deliberate, and while they will put some things back, it may never be good enough for the same market. Adobe is still supporting and improving what they have, which is not bad. FCPX was actually playing catchup to Adobe in many ways. As I said in another post, coming from a FCP background, learning Adobe may actually be easier than learning FCPX. In a year, we will see what Apple has done to resolve this, but if it is still not where FCP was years ago, this is when people will legitimately consider Adobe. I personally think Apple is willingly exiting this pro market.



    The fact is your living on speculative rationale that is based on the prior notion that Apple was never going to release a new FCP and that it was going to be iMovie Pro.



    In fact, the entire hysteria behind your fallacious premise and the several others shows a lot of people waste a lot of time talking about questionable rumors as if they are full of inside information leaving one with only one logical conclusion--disinformation campaign intended on other corporations peeling off clients from Apple to build up their own user base.
  • Reply 71 of 120
    fearlessfearless Posts: 138member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by robogobo View Post


    The only mistake apple made was to discontinue support for fcp7. Bad idea. So if they bring that back, problem solved. Major redesigns and overhauls need time to iron out the kinks and get up to speed. Most pros don't adopt a new release until it's proven in the field. This is certainly true of major studios. The majority of people who are trying fcpx and complaining about it are semi pro and amateurs. That doesn't make the problems less significant, but this is how it always goes. Give it a few months and all will be fine in movie land.



    Do you actually work in "movie land"? Do you understand that it's only semi pros and amateurs who finish projects alone, in one machine? Everyone else collaborates, using tools FCS had that don't exist in FCP X. Major studios, as you put it, will never use it. Not because it's bad, but because it's useless. It has no way to engage with anything else people are doing, and is therefore no use.



    I'm amazed how many rank amateurs are offering advice to people who actually do this as their day job, regurgitating the line about how slack we are to expect to upgrade mid-project, and how unprofessional that is.



    The real pros bought this, still own it, will try it on small projects as we did today (like making a DVD screener lol) but want to see a path forward that includes the stuff we've done over the past 12 years in FCP. Few jobs just begin, on day 0, and end neatly. There are many reasons to need backwards compatibility on projects, and only idiots see our work as being about starting and finishing "a movie" on one machine, as a self-contained exercise. In "movie land" that simply isn't how it works.



    Any Avid editor can work with any Avid project ever made since 1992. Not always the media, but the edit, which has always lived as metadata (no, Apple didn't invent the term). Apple sees no need for that, and they're wrong. Wrong.
  • Reply 72 of 120
    mdriftmeyermdriftmeyer Posts: 7,281member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by fearless View Post


    Importing is needed when the producer comes back to you in 18 months and wants to recut for a different purpose. Do you actually work in this field? Some projects stay alive for years. Just when you think they're over, in they walk again.



    So, the new version of Word won't read the novel you wrote two years ago that you thought had gone as far as it would. Then someone wants it. You can print it out though, and scan it, and send jpegs, or retype if you want to change something. What's wrong with that?



    And in 18 months you have the time to actually resolve this issue by moving your original work to a new solution or you use the existing solution you used to actually produce your final product to come back and run it on that same hardware you used to get the product out the door, in the first place.



    If you are going to whine at us that in 18 months the hardware has become obsolete your complaints will fall on deaf ears.



    I would suggest when Apple releases their APIs that you hire a developer to provide you with an upgrade path to export your existing projects into the new FCPX project format. That's just one point of the API.
  • Reply 73 of 120
    fearlessfearless Posts: 138member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post


    The fact is your living on speculative rationale that is based on the prior notion that Apple was never going to release a new FCP and that it was going to be iMovie Pro.



    In fact, the entire hysteria behind your fallacious premise and the several others shows a lot of people waste a lot of time talking about questionable rumors as if they are full of inside information leaving one with only one logical conclusion--disinformation campaign intended on other corporations peeling off clients from Apple to build up their own user base.



    No, Apple has not told us what "missing features" we can expect. The Lord taketh away, but will the Lord giveth back? There are only rumours, because Apple's not talking. Professionals can't trust that, whatever FUD competitors may come out with is irrelevant. It's what Apple tells us about their product plans that matters, and the cat got their tongue.
  • Reply 74 of 120
    fearlessfearless Posts: 138member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post


    And in 18 months you have the time to actually resolve this issue by moving your original work to a new solution or you use the existing solution you used to actually produce your final product to come back and run it on that same hardware you used to get the product out the door, in the first place.



    If you are going to whine at us that in 18 months the hardware has become obsolete your complaints will fall on deaf ears.



    I would suggest when Apple releases their APIs that you hire a developer to provide you with an upgrade path to export your existing projects into the new FCPX project format. That's just one point of the API.



    I'm sorry, we now have to hire developers to open old FCP projects in the new version? How liberating! What a revolution! Get off the grass.



    If you think this just about a bunch of prima donnas whining you're about as engaged with this business as Apple seems to be. They messed up big time, and have only a less and less credible fanboy base to defend them here, every time someone opens their mouth.
  • Reply 75 of 120
    a_greera_greer Posts: 4,594member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by eksodos View Post


    I encourage any angry professional video editor to switch to Adobe Premier and buy a PC with Microsoft Windows too at the same time. I'm sure you'll have a good time without Apple software. FCPX is a revolutionary new product at a truly remarkable price. Apple leads the way again.



    I know you are being a little flip, but if I were the CIO or IT/Technology manager at a large video shop, I would put a stop to all Mac purchases and get better and more cost effective PC hardware. Adobe and Avid run on both platforms, you can get better and faster GPUs on the Windows side and win7 is every bit as secure as OSX.



    Apple has made it clear that they dont want to sell their products into commercial enviornments.

    * No more XServe

    *No more xserve Raid

    *no matte displays

    *discontinuing Shake

    *discontinuing FCP Server with no warning or migration path

    *discontinuing FCP 7 and replacing it with a subpar FC"p" X and not even leting you migrate your working files.

    ***I Predict that the MacPro towers will be EOLd and not replaced soon...what Apple pro app is left to run on it? Logic Pro? and when is Apple gonna dumb down that one?



    Apple doesn't care about business users, they want to sell imovie for $10 to parents who wanna make home videos and they wanna sell imovie pro to poor podcasters/youtube video makers who cant afford a professional tool like Premiere pro, the old FCS 3 or avid's entry level composer.
  • Reply 76 of 120
    fearlessfearless Posts: 138member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by akhomerun View Post


    what arrogance?

    - agents have given refunds and admitted faults

    - apple has promised to add many removed features (multicam)

    - many complaints are unwarranted (apple explained how to change file locations)

    - apple listens to feedback. it's why the ipod touch has volume buttons, for example. their secrecy and willingness to leave behind the past can sometimes piss people off, but that's not arrogance.



    if you don't totally throw out old code eventually you end up with something like....well like every old adobe product. apple believes that it's best to throw out code at the proper time and start over if software technologies have progressed far enough. i agree with this notion and i agree with the stance that it makes for feature barren software in the near term (mac os 10.0-10.1, imovie 08)



    You can throw out old code and develop new products and every single FCP user will endorse that development path. I'd happily pay $299 to become familiar with a developing app early and watch it grow to a point where I could roll my daily work across to it. I'd also be happy with a couple of weeks of very steep learning curve on a new interface if it did better what the existing app did not. Sadly that's not FCP X.



    FCP X is a debacle, it's a lame duck, professionally useless and sorry guys, I exclude one-box wedding and Sunday videographers here, and those seeking better tools for skateboard vids on YouTube. You already have iMovie, and you had Final Cut Express.



    To tear up the road map on an app on which many rely is just mad, and arrogant. To try to tell editors that audio tracks don't matter any more, that all you need is a magic, sorry, "magnetic timeline" and some pretty EQ controls and you can "mix your movie" and it need never see a ProTools suite... that's arrogant, and dumb. And tape? Tell your clients and national broadcasters and international distributors it's old school, they don't need it any more, they can wise up or bugger off. Yeah right.



    Apple has left a large body of users relying from day to day on an unsupported application suite to get their work done, and replaced it with a Fisher-Price toy. But hey, it's the way of the future, and it looks cool... what are you whining about?
  • Reply 77 of 120
    tbelltbell Posts: 3,146member
    Your understanding? You think Jobs edits video in his free time. Unlikely. Jobs probably had very little to do with the making of Final Cut.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tundraboy View Post


    I don't think Steve Jobs can fire anyone for this. This is not a problem of execution, this is one of faulty decisions made about product features and positioning. And my understanding is Steve Jobs and only Steve Jobs makes that call.



  • Reply 78 of 120
    tbelltbell Posts: 3,146member
    That is ridiculous. Apple had to move all its old applications to the cocoa development environment. For an application like Final Cut and Shake that was a huge undertaking. Apple was cleaning house not because it wanted to do so, but because it was required to do so. APple loves touting all the professional films made using Final Cut. It is great marketing.



    Apple likely got rid of the X-Serve because it wasn't selling or because a new product is in the pipeline. Matte displays are nice, but guess what, most customers prefer glossy (as Apple did offer both) and you can connect any third party Matte display up to a Mac. The only thing Apple did wrong here was under estimate the product, not continue to offer the old version, and not explain its intentions better.



    Apple still could fix this by 1) offering the old Final Cut again and continue to support it until 2012, and 2) rapidly add the missing features.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by a_greer View Post


    I know you are being a little flip, but if I were the CIO or IT/Technology manager at a large video shop, I would put a stop to all Mac purchases and get better and more cost effective PC hardware. Adobe and Avid run on both platforms, you can get better and faster GPUs on the Windows side and win7 is every bit as secure as OSX.



    Apple has made it clear that they dont want to sell their products into commercial enviornments.

    * No more XServe

    *No more xserve Raid

    *no matte displays

    *discontinuing Shake

    *discontinuing FCP Server with no warning or migration path

    *discontinuing FCP 7 and replacing it with a subpar FC"p" X and not even leting you migrate your working files.

    ***I Predict that the MacPro towers will be EOLd and not replaced soon...what Apple pro app is left to run on it? Logic Pro? and when is Apple gonna dumb down that one?



    Apple doesn't care about business users, they want to sell imovie for $10 to parents who wanna make home videos and they wanna sell imovie pro to poor podcasters/youtube video makers who cant afford a professional tool like Premiere pro, the old FCS 3 or avid's entry level composer.



  • Reply 79 of 120
    leddyleddy Posts: 1member
    I've read Appleinsider for years and joined the other day when I was so incensed at some of the inane comments defending FCP X.



    Now I realize what a waste of time it is speaking to people on forums. Unless something affects them directly, it would seem the vast majority of people have absolutely no interest in understanding the issues that people who use the software on a daily basis can see.



    It's not just multicam, and the idiots who keep repeating that as if it gives them some kind of credibility would do better by not sharing their ignorance with people who actually know and understand broadcast environments.



    The way Apple presented FCP X at NAB takes deceit by omission to a new level. Using a pro event to generate buzz for what is essentially a consumer app is just dishonest marketing, and while it may sell copies to the people who are excited about getting a "pro" app for such a bargain price, it has destroyed any of the remaining credibility Apple possessed in the broadcast world.



    "Fearless", your posts are great, but realize you are surrounded by keyboard warriors who have no interest in trying to understand your dilemma. They would prefer to gloat and cherry pick your argument. Best of luck to you.



    For them, well I wish that they live in interesting times.
  • Reply 80 of 120
    strobestrobe Posts: 369member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AppleSauce007 View Post


    OK. So there are issues...but...here is an FAQ http://www.apple.com/finalcutpro/faq/



    * Apple said they will fix the importing issue with an update soon.



    Nope. According to the web page you linked (did you read it?) they said it is impossible

    Quote:

    * Plug-ins that don't work now will eventually be updated to support FCP X.



    Apple didn't merely change the architecture, but dropped API support so plug-ins will have to be rewritten. Without a production-capable platform to write plug-ins for, who would bother?

    Quote:

    * Multi-cam support will come.



    Again, according to the web page you linked (did you really read it?) they said it will be a feature in the NEXT MAJOR RELEASE. Of course, if FCP7 is dead for however many years THAT takes I highly doubt FCPX will survive as a 'Pro' product.

    Quote:

    * The software architecture of FCP X will allow for huge and insanely great improvements in the future.



    Hype. Whatever happened to "Real Artists Deliver"?

    Quote:

    Adobe can do what ever they want but they know that they're toast.



    I still say that studios that are crazy enough to ignore FCP X will lose big time. Especially if they have a massive of FCP projects already.



    Projects they can't import; video archives they can't use because of FCPX's iTunes-like desire to copy everything to the local volume/project. Given that situation, it's easier to go with Avid. I fail to see why not.

    Quote:



    You see, for 300/400 bucks a lot of small shops will have of the editing power of the major studios. There are a lot of talented up and coming students who will take advantage of FCP X and start releasing short films and shows and podcasts in the new internet era. It's a brave new world and the big old dogs at the major studios who are foolish enough to reject FCP X will lose in the long term.



    The future of media consumption? http://www.apple.com/ipad/#now Like it or not, gotta deal with it!



    Time will tell.



    Apple already has had plenty of time. This has been in development for years.



    Oh wait a minute...was I just trolled?
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