Homeland Security -vs- Freedom

noahj · February 18, 2003 2:51PM

I read many of these topics and I keep seeing detractors of the Homeland Security Department saying how we are sacrificing our freedoms for increased security. And for some reason this grates on me. On the one side you have the Constitution and the freedoms guranteed by it, and on the other hand you have a scary world with suicide bombers, and other forms of terrorism apparantly now focusing its sights on the U.S. proper, and not just embassies around the world.

My question is, where does one find a balance between national security, and the role of the government in carrying that out, and personal freedoms. I have thought about it off and on and have come up with, the more you rely on the government to keep you safe, the fewer personal freedoms you will have. Those who say that Homeland Security is a sham and that we need tighter borders, are you willing to give up the freedom to move easily from state to state and in and out of the US to tighten them up?

This is just the beginning of the conversation. I do not have the answers, I am however interested in hearing your suggestions. Do we arm ourselves and when we see a terrorist in action take him/her down? Do we implement video surveillance in high density public areas? Do we implement a national ID card? Do we do nothing and hope it all goes away?

Chime in, and be civil, all views are valid on this topic, even if yours is more valid than theirs.

thegelding · February 18, 2003 4:53PM

and do we tap all phones and cable lines and computer hookups...should everything you do and say and look at and read be available to the government and any organization that wants it/can pay for it/deems it needed for national security??

with enough computer storage, every key click you do, every word you say, every image you see, can be stored and kept....

personally i think we are doing fine in homeland security...the odds of my daughters being killed by a drunk driver are probably 10,000 times higher than of being killed by a suicide bomber...actually, probably much higher

and can we stop random crazies like that subway guy in south korea?? or the timothy mcvie's?? or the person who sprays pepper spray in a crowded club?? or the fans at an english rugby or soccer match that trample people...bad things happen all the time...terrorist might be a concern (very small at this point...one domestic attack, one forgein attack in as many years as i can think off), but we have concerns everyday....

wear your seatbelt, don't drink and drive, wear a condom, don't play with guns...

we should be careful and be on our guard at all times...not just about terrorist and suicide bombers...but also thugs in subways, spilt water on tile floors, hot coffee at mcdonalds (ok, so so much the last one) etc etc....

so terrorist are just one more worry added to your day...heck, maybe we should also add to watch out for space craft parts falling from the sky...

our borders are fine, our security is fine, our freedoms are fine....and glorious....g

[ 02-18-2003: Message edited by: thegelding ]

ghost_user_name · February 18, 2003 5:03PM

Do you fear your parents and children? I hope not. So why do you fear other peoples parents and children? Perhaps because you don´t know them well enough.

Would you kill your parents or children? So why do you want to kill other peoples parents and children? Perhaps for the same reason as above.

The only way to find security is to be bold enough to reach out, live in freedom and grant others the same right. Boarders, cameras, surveillance etc. not only restrict the freedom of the bad guys but also your own.

Since someone told me I´m naive I´ll try riding the wave

roduk · February 18, 2003 5:14PM

I agree with thegelding in that on an individual basis, internal events such as drink driving or a US citizen with a grudge (Washington sniper etc) pose a bigger threat than terrorism. I'm not sure ID cards or surveillance cameras would prevent a terrorist in action, especially if they are willing to die for their cause. At the risk of starting a gun debate, I do wonder whether having the freedom to carry a gun increases or decreases homeland security, or atleast personal safety.

colanderofdeath · February 18, 2003 5:51PM

If clothes were outlawed for women that would enable us to be more secure knowing that those women did not have weapons of any kind hidden on them. Also shorter waits through airport security plus it wouldn't be as boring either.

thegelding · February 18, 2003 6:00PM

i agree somewhat with CoD's post...but only pretty woman please....and not my children...but please...fat guys with hairy backs always get lots of clothing...and no speedos for them either...ick....g

groverat · February 18, 2003 6:01PM

You always err on the side of freedom.

trumptman · February 18, 2003 6:05PM

I don't want to sound xenophobic but since it seems like they want to take an awful lot of American rights to deal with basically a lack of control with immigration matters.

I mean even with all this talk about improved homeland security we still had dead terrorists receiving visa's to be here legally AFTER they had flown the planes into the WTC and pentagon.

We don't have to be racists and say it is only people of arabic ancestry. We just have to admit that we will never be secure within the country when we have absolutely no control over who comes and goes in and out of it. Perhaps we cannot stop the illegal entries, but we certainly ought to be able to reform the procedures for those entering the country legally and especially on things like student visas which were what the terrorists used.

Nick

colanderofdeath · February 18, 2003 6:07PM

Indeed.

I've always felt that we should sent women who combine Spandex and Cellulite to The Hague to be properly dealt with as war criminals.

tulkas · February 18, 2003 6:12PM

[quote]Originally posted by thegelding:

...but please...fat guys with hairy backs always get lots of clothing...and no speedos for them either...ick....g<hr></blockquote>

Stay off of European beaches then

colanderofdeath · February 18, 2003 6:15PM

Margaret Thatcher got a big ole butt oh yeah

lungaretta · February 18, 2003 6:46PM

theGelding (way up there) hit the nail on the head AFAICS. treat people like children, they act like children.

i see no justification for kneejerk reactions chipping away at the freedoms that you seem to all be quite happy with.

from an outsiders POV your war on terrorism seems like a rerun of the US post-war anti communist movement. and where did that get you?

i say 'your war', i really mean your administrations war because a lot of you just seem to accept and not question objectively what is presented to you through that cathode ray box in the corner. i apologise to those of you that do. i realise that a lot of you *do* see further than your trailer park fence.

oops.. did i say that. i don't think i'll make many friends here...

in short, protect <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/503224.stm"; target="_blank">the freedoms you have now </a> because to get them back later will be twice as hard.

noahj · February 19, 2003 11:33AM

I wondered how long it would be before someone brought up the fabled Echelon. BTW, anyone who wonders how we intercepted those audio broadcasts in Iraq, Echelon is likely one of the means, along with standard wire taps. Bad thing? In this case I would say no.

hassan i sabbah · February 19, 2003 12:08PM

[quote]Originally posted by Tulkas:



Stay off of European beaches then

<hr></blockquote>

My friend, you have never been to Nice.

oh

my

dear

lord

thank-you

for

your

bounty

bunge · February 19, 2003 12:15PM

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:

You always err on the side of freedom. <hr></blockquote>

This is 100% true. As they say in New Hampshire, Live Free or Die.

ghost_user_name · February 19, 2003 12:23PM

[quote]Originally posted by bunge:



This is 100% true. As they say in New Hampshire, Live Free or Die.<hr></blockquote>

Does unemployment in a devastated economy factor into this freedom?

bunge · February 19, 2003 1:02PM

[quote]Originally posted by zKillah:



Does unemployment in a devastated economy factor into this freedom?<hr></blockquote>

Not for me.

I'd rather be a freeman in my grave

that living as a puppet or a slave

And as sure as the sun will shine

I'm gonna get a share of what's mine

And the harder they come

The harder they fall

One and all

-Jimmy Cliff

ghost_user_name · February 19, 2003 1:21PM

I guess that depends on one's definition of freedom. Sounds like living in a cardboard box is the life for you.

<img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />

tulkas · February 19, 2003 1:48PM

[quote]Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah:



My friend, you have never been to Nice.

oh

my

dear

lord

thank-you

for

your

bounty<hr></blockquote>

Would love to go..hear it is great...except for the speedo wearing fat hairy men

noahj · February 19, 2003 2:15PM

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:

You always err on the side of freedom.<hr></blockquote>

Is that what they did on the flights on 9/11? How about all the illegal immigrants into the US, are we erring on the side of freedom there? Obviously not.

There is a middle ground, I am asking where you guys feel that is, I agree that freedom is important, but are any of you willing to pay the price that may be asked of you for it? That price could be your life, or that of someone in your family.

groverat · February 19, 2003 2:17PM

9/11 was a result of shoddy security, not abuse of freedom.

Homeland Security -vs- Freedom

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