Shoddy private security. They should've detected the box cutters.
And sometimes shit just happens and for my sake don't ask daddy government to take my rights away so you can feel more comfy.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes, but with the shoddy private securtiy in place they got box cutters through. They decided that this would be the easiest way to get weapons through screeners and unfortuantely they were right. It did not cause terrorism, but it allowed it to succeed.
And then shoddy Homeland Security, or more truthfully, shoddy immigration screening processes allowed terrorists into our nation to begin with so that they could take advantage of the shoddy security that the airlines had in place to begin with. The funny thing is, the airlines had all the security they needed. Metal detectors, screeners, etc. They just did not utilize them correctly, something about training and paying them what they are worth causing high turnover.
But this is not even the whole point of the topic, it is just a small part. The genie is out of the bottle. The radical terroris groups have show part of their hand and they have found that America can indeed be hit by terrorism. With our still porous borders, and our still half blind agencies it will not be difficult for terrorist organizations to mobilize another such strike. It all comes down to, are you satisifed with how protected you are now? I am fairly sure that terrorist activities are not done in the US. I am also fairly sure that I will not be the victim of one, statistically speaking. However when you include friends and family the odds become less sure.
People speak of safety being an illusion. They speak of the dangers of walking out of your house, or even just walking into your bathroom (where the greatest majority of accidents occur in the home). However, I am not interested in those things so much as I am in preventing crimes that can be prevented. Terrorism is a crime. It can be prevented, and it does not have to be accepted as a way of life. This topic is less on suporting or opposing what is currently in place or being offered and more about people offering what they think is something that can be done, either on a personal, block, city, state, or national level. It is easy to say, "Don't mess with my freedom." Fine, so are you going to turn your head a pretend that terrorism is not a threat to you? Or are you taking steps to ensure that when terrorism does strike again, that if you are involved somehow that you are prepared? Have you set up a neighborhood watch? Did you buy a gun? Have you stocked up on Plastic and Duct Tape?
[quote] Why wouldn?t we (Israelis) be justified sacrificing those millions of Arabs to defend our freedom against the ever-encroaching wave of Islamic totalitarianism and domination? <hr></blockquote>
well, israel is quite able to ward off any one or two arab nations....but if israel went and started killing millions of arabs, well there is nothing that israel nor the us nor the un could do to stop the slaughter that followed...israel is much too smart for that...yes, many more arabs would die than israelis, but in the end there would be no israel and not much of anything in the whole of the middle east....would israel want to face a united arab war?? iran, iraq, jordan, syria, lybia, etc....
I'd say they were right in principle, wrong ideals.</strong><hr></blockquote>
This is beginning to sound eerily like the people that praised the 9/11 hijackers for being so brave and so dedicated to their cause that they were willing to die for it. I know that was not your point, but it is what came to mind upon reading it. Some scars will never heal I guess.
[quote] People speak of safety being an illusion. They speak of the dangers of walking out of your house, or even just walking into your bathroom (where the greatest majority of accidents occur in the home). However, I am not interested in those things so much as I am in preventing crimes that can be prevented. <hr></blockquote>
so also outlaw cigarrettes and booze....those two things kill more americans than all the terrorist you can find in the whole world could do to us, even if they had free access to american cities...every accident can be prevented if you take enough freedoms away...but do you want to live like that??? every crime can be prevented if you take enough freedoms away...but do you want to live like that??? every terrorist act can be prevented if you take enough freedoms away...but do you want to live like that???
safety is an illusion....who has the most acts against them...Israel....who has the most security and check points and gates and walls and secure borders....Israel....
do the palenstinians have too many freedoms??
we are safe and secure in this country...don't let the politicans scare you into giving them your freedoms...will bad things happen?? yes...will wonderful things happens...every-freakin-day...will you get hit by a bus tomorrow?? maybe...
terror is the latest buzzword
so is WOMD
freedom?? what an old word...not nearly as sexy as terror of WOMD......
still it is a great word...i like it alot...g
ps...yes i feel safe...yes i keep my eyes open (you try driving in albuquerque traffic...scary),
no i haven't bought a gun (it is way to likely to kill me, my wife or my kids), yes i have duct tape at home...i love duct tape...but not for the windows....
when your time comes, your time comes....whether by car accident, or piece of shuttle hitting you in the head when you walk your dog across eastern texas, or liver failure from drinking, or sitting in your car watching the price is right, or even by "terrorist" attack....i refuse to live in fear and i also don't think it is time to live in fear (at least in the USA...if i lived in baghdad i would probably have a different opinion)...g
and once again...violence is awful...if my family died in a terrorist act, it would be awful and i don't know if i could survive it...if my family died in a car jacking, it would be awful and i don't know if i could survive it...if my family died when hit by a drunk driver, it would be awful and i don't know if i could survive it....somebody is trying to scare people into thinking this "terror" thing is all around us...but it is rare and maybe not preventable unless almost every freedom is taken (how much freedom does a suicidal person need to take others with him??? a gas can and a match in south korea)...you are more likely to die from a drunk driver...so close all brewerys and bars...you are more likely to die from second hand smoke...so burn down all tobacco farms....
ask yourself...why does the government want me so afraid of "terrorist" attacks when we have had only one domestic and one forgein??? how do they benefit?? what do they gain??
[quote]Haven't they already done so? How many was it against Israel in the beginning? <hr></blockquote>
israel has alway done well protecting it's borders...and i think that is a great idea and wonderful for them to do (my stepdad and my little brother's last name is Roth...so i will always respect and support israel)...but i was referring to a post above that seemed to say israel could go and try and genocide the arab world to protect itself....protecting it's land vs going into other countries and wiping out a whole group of millions of people is two different things and much more difficult and bloody...and insane....i don't see israel being insane...g
so also outlaw cigarrettes and booze....those two things kill more americans than all the terrorist you can find in the whole world could do to us, even if they had free access to american cities...every accident can be prevented if you take enough freedoms away...but do you want to live like that??? every crime can be prevented if you take enough freedoms away...but do you want to live like that??? every terrorist act can be prevented...but do you want to live like that???<hr></blockquote></strong>
Now you are moving into personal responsibility. It already is a crime to drink and drive, but you should be smart enough to not do so anyhow. It is already against the law in many states to smoke in public places, but you should be considerate of others anyhow. No. you cannot prevent all accidents if you take enough freedoms away? It cannot be done, period. But I am not asking to prevent accidents, I am asking to prevent the preventable. How far is too far?
[quote]<strong>safety is an illusion....who has the most acts against them...Israel....who has the most security and check points and gates and walls and secure borders....Israel....
do the palenstinians have too many freedoms??</strong><hr></blockquote>
No. they have an easily accessible border to Israel which when their gurad is let down is attacked vigorously by suicide bombers. If the US was right next door to one of our enemies wew ould have the same problems. The thing that keeps us safe is lots of water, and we keep our neighbors our allies.
[quote]<strong>we are safe and secure in this country...don't let the politicans scare you into giving them your freedoms...will bad things happen?? yes...will wonderful things happens...every-freakin-day...will you get hit by a bus tomorrow?? maybe...
terror is the latest buzzword
so is WOMD
freedom?? what an old word...not nearly as sexy as terror of WOMD......
still it is a great word...i like it alot...g
ps...yes i feel safe...yes i keep my eyes open (you try driving in albuquerque traffic...scary),
no i haven't bought a gun (it is way to likely to kill me, my wife or my kids), yes i have duct tape at home...i love duct tape...but not for the windows....
when your time comes, your time comes....whether by car accident, or piece of shuttle hitting you in the head when you walk your dog across eastern texas, or liver failure from drinking, or sitting in your car watching the price is right, or even by "terrorist" attack....i refuse to live in fear and i also don't think it is time to live in fear (at least in the USA...if i lived in baghdad i would probably have a different opinion)...g</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thanks for the long reply. You are still assuming that I am pushing something I am not. But your reply at least answers the question I put forth. For the most part.
[quote] Thanks for the long reply <hr></blockquote>
no problem NoahJ....
long replies are my speciality
i really need to learn more from EbOy about posting....
how do we keep our freedoms and "limit" attacks?? well, why aren't we attacked by canadians (other than they are too drunk usually ) and by mexicians?? they are our friends and we have free trade and travel with them (mostly)....we should take our enemies and make them our allies....we offer open arms and open trade and share our freedoms and wealth with them...we get them to at least sort of like us and need us....maybe naive, but we can't stop attacks if people want to attack....a gas can in a subway kills a hundred thirty people....two airline planes kill almost 3000 and cost billions in damages...an ryder truck full of fertilizer destroys a building and so many inside...if people "want" to hurt us, they will find a way...so we should try to take away the "want"...i don't see us (nor US) doing that right now...instead of reaching out and helping, we are making demands and threatening...we are a nation with a big stick...the world know we have the big stick, the world is afraid of the big stick...so why do we have to wave the big stick around so much??? g
well, israel is quite able to ward off any one or two arab nations....but if israel went and started killing millions of arabs, well there is nothing that israel nor the us nor the un could do to stop the slaughter that followed...israel is much too smart for that...yes, many more arabs would die than israelis, but in the end there would be no israel and not much of anything in the whole of the middle east....would israel want to face a united arab war?? iran, iraq, jordan, syria, lybia, etc....</strong><hr></blockquote>
Although I disagree with your assessment, you misunderstood my question. I was posing it as a philosophical question, and not asking to the practicality of it.
safety is an illusion....who has the most acts against them...Israel....who has the most security and check points and gates and walls and secure borders....Israel....
.
.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
The border is VERY porous. It is only now, after more than 55 years of this idiocy, that they are beginning to construct a fence. A fence! Imagine that!
The border is VERY porous. It is only now, after more than 55 years of this idiocy, that they are beginning to construct a fence. A fence! Imagine that!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Heaven forfend that people should want to go and visit their families, work at their businesses or pray at their temples.
Heaven forfend that people should want to go and visit their families, work at their businesses or pray at their temples.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Heaven forfend that they should go through security put in place to prevent suicide bombers from waltzing in and blowing up said families, temples and businesses.
Because those two things are harder to sneak by security.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Right. Which is to say that the security was sufficient for the threats the airlines had already identified. It's next to impossible to protect oneself against a threat that one hasn't imagined yet. I'm not saying that the security couldn't have been better. Certainly it could have been. But one also has to recognize that the plan a terrorist makes is always going to be a wildcard. And efforts to defeat that plan neccessarily will require a level of intrusiveness - a loss of freedom - that we weren't willing to tolerate before 9/11.
Comments
<strong>
Shoddy private security. They should've detected the box cutters.
And sometimes shit just happens and for my sake don't ask daddy government to take my rights away so you can feel more comfy.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes, but with the shoddy private securtiy in place they got box cutters through. They decided that this would be the easiest way to get weapons through screeners and unfortuantely they were right. It did not cause terrorism, but it allowed it to succeed.
And then shoddy Homeland Security, or more truthfully, shoddy immigration screening processes allowed terrorists into our nation to begin with so that they could take advantage of the shoddy security that the airlines had in place to begin with. The funny thing is, the airlines had all the security they needed. Metal detectors, screeners, etc. They just did not utilize them correctly, something about training and paying them what they are worth causing high turnover.
But this is not even the whole point of the topic, it is just a small part. The genie is out of the bottle. The radical terroris groups have show part of their hand and they have found that America can indeed be hit by terrorism. With our still porous borders, and our still half blind agencies it will not be difficult for terrorist organizations to mobilize another such strike. It all comes down to, are you satisifed with how protected you are now? I am fairly sure that terrorist activities are not done in the US. I am also fairly sure that I will not be the victim of one, statistically speaking. However when you include friends and family the odds become less sure.
People speak of safety being an illusion. They speak of the dangers of walking out of your house, or even just walking into your bathroom (where the greatest majority of accidents occur in the home). However, I am not interested in those things so much as I am in preventing crimes that can be prevented. Terrorism is a crime. It can be prevented, and it does not have to be accepted as a way of life. This topic is less on suporting or opposing what is currently in place or being offered and more about people offering what they think is something that can be done, either on a personal, block, city, state, or national level. It is easy to say, "Don't mess with my freedom." Fine, so are you going to turn your head a pretend that terrorism is not a threat to you? Or are you taking steps to ensure that when terrorism does strike again, that if you are involved somehow that you are prepared? Have you set up a neighborhood watch? Did you buy a gun? Have you stocked up on Plastic and Duct Tape?
Is that more clear?
well, israel is quite able to ward off any one or two arab nations....but if israel went and started killing millions of arabs, well there is nothing that israel nor the us nor the un could do to stop the slaughter that followed...israel is much too smart for that...yes, many more arabs would die than israelis, but in the end there would be no israel and not much of anything in the whole of the middle east....would israel want to face a united arab war?? iran, iraq, jordan, syria, lybia, etc....
<strong>
I'd say they were right in principle, wrong ideals.</strong><hr></blockquote>
This is beginning to sound eerily like the people that praised the 9/11 hijackers for being so brave and so dedicated to their cause that they were willing to die for it. I know that was not your point, but it is what came to mind upon reading it. Some scars will never heal I guess.
[ 02-20-2003: Message edited by: NoahJ ]</p>
<strong>
would israel want to face a united arab war?? iran, iraq, jordan, syria, lybia, etc....</strong><hr></blockquote>
Haven't they already done so? How many was it against Israel in the beginning?
[ 02-20-2003: Message edited by: NoahJ ]</p>
so also outlaw cigarrettes and booze....those two things kill more americans than all the terrorist you can find in the whole world could do to us, even if they had free access to american cities...every accident can be prevented if you take enough freedoms away...but do you want to live like that??? every crime can be prevented if you take enough freedoms away...but do you want to live like that??? every terrorist act can be prevented if you take enough freedoms away...but do you want to live like that???
safety is an illusion....who has the most acts against them...Israel....who has the most security and check points and gates and walls and secure borders....Israel....
do the palenstinians have too many freedoms??
we are safe and secure in this country...don't let the politicans scare you into giving them your freedoms...will bad things happen?? yes...will wonderful things happens...every-freakin-day...will you get hit by a bus tomorrow?? maybe...
terror is the latest buzzword
so is WOMD
freedom?? what an old word...not nearly as sexy as terror of WOMD......
still it is a great word...i like it alot...g
ps...yes i feel safe...yes i keep my eyes open (you try driving in albuquerque traffic...scary),
no i haven't bought a gun (it is way to likely to kill me, my wife or my kids), yes i have duct tape at home...i love duct tape...but not for the windows....
when your time comes, your time comes....whether by car accident, or piece of shuttle hitting you in the head when you walk your dog across eastern texas, or liver failure from drinking, or sitting in your car watching the price is right, or even by "terrorist" attack....i refuse to live in fear and i also don't think it is time to live in fear (at least in the USA...if i lived in baghdad i would probably have a different opinion)...g
and once again...violence is awful...if my family died in a terrorist act, it would be awful and i don't know if i could survive it...if my family died in a car jacking, it would be awful and i don't know if i could survive it...if my family died when hit by a drunk driver, it would be awful and i don't know if i could survive it....somebody is trying to scare people into thinking this "terror" thing is all around us...but it is rare and maybe not preventable unless almost every freedom is taken (how much freedom does a suicidal person need to take others with him??? a gas can and a match in south korea)...you are more likely to die from a drunk driver...so close all brewerys and bars...you are more likely to die from second hand smoke...so burn down all tobacco farms....
ask yourself...why does the government want me so afraid of "terrorist" attacks when we have had only one domestic and one forgein??? how do they benefit?? what do they gain??
war on terror, hell why stop there
war on drugs
war on alcohol
war on tobacco
war on unions
war on lawyers
war on ..........
[ 02-20-2003: Message edited by: thegelding ]</p>
israel has alway done well protecting it's borders...and i think that is a great idea and wonderful for them to do (my stepdad and my little brother's last name is Roth...so i will always respect and support israel)...but i was referring to a post above that seemed to say israel could go and try and genocide the arab world to protect itself....protecting it's land vs going into other countries and wiping out a whole group of millions of people is two different things and much more difficult and bloody...and insane....i don't see israel being insane...g
[ 02-20-2003: Message edited by: thegelding ]</p>
<strong>
so also outlaw cigarrettes and booze....those two things kill more americans than all the terrorist you can find in the whole world could do to us, even if they had free access to american cities...every accident can be prevented if you take enough freedoms away...but do you want to live like that??? every crime can be prevented if you take enough freedoms away...but do you want to live like that??? every terrorist act can be prevented...but do you want to live like that???<hr></blockquote></strong>
Now you are moving into personal responsibility. It already is a crime to drink and drive, but you should be smart enough to not do so anyhow. It is already against the law in many states to smoke in public places, but you should be considerate of others anyhow. No. you cannot prevent all accidents if you take enough freedoms away? It cannot be done, period. But I am not asking to prevent accidents, I am asking to prevent the preventable. How far is too far?
[quote]<strong>safety is an illusion....who has the most acts against them...Israel....who has the most security and check points and gates and walls and secure borders....Israel....
do the palenstinians have too many freedoms??</strong><hr></blockquote>
No. they have an easily accessible border to Israel which when their gurad is let down is attacked vigorously by suicide bombers. If the US was right next door to one of our enemies wew ould have the same problems. The thing that keeps us safe is lots of water, and we keep our neighbors our allies.
[quote]<strong>we are safe and secure in this country...don't let the politicans scare you into giving them your freedoms...will bad things happen?? yes...will wonderful things happens...every-freakin-day...will you get hit by a bus tomorrow?? maybe...
terror is the latest buzzword
so is WOMD
freedom?? what an old word...not nearly as sexy as terror of WOMD......
still it is a great word...i like it alot...g
ps...yes i feel safe...yes i keep my eyes open (you try driving in albuquerque traffic...scary),
no i haven't bought a gun (it is way to likely to kill me, my wife or my kids), yes i have duct tape at home...i love duct tape...but not for the windows....
when your time comes, your time comes....whether by car accident, or piece of shuttle hitting you in the head when you walk your dog across eastern texas, or liver failure from drinking, or sitting in your car watching the price is right, or even by "terrorist" attack....i refuse to live in fear and i also don't think it is time to live in fear (at least in the USA...if i lived in baghdad i would probably have a different opinion)...g</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thanks for the long reply. You are still assuming that I am pushing something I am not. But your reply at least answers the question I put forth. For the most part.
no problem NoahJ....
long replies are my speciality
i really need to learn more from EbOy about posting....
how do we keep our freedoms and "limit" attacks?? well, why aren't we attacked by canadians (other than they are too drunk usually
<strong>
well, israel is quite able to ward off any one or two arab nations....but if israel went and started killing millions of arabs, well there is nothing that israel nor the us nor the un could do to stop the slaughter that followed...israel is much too smart for that...yes, many more arabs would die than israelis, but in the end there would be no israel and not much of anything in the whole of the middle east....would israel want to face a united arab war?? iran, iraq, jordan, syria, lybia, etc....</strong><hr></blockquote>
Although I disagree with your assessment, you misunderstood my question. I was posing it as a philosophical question, and not asking to the practicality of it.
<strong>
.
.
safety is an illusion....who has the most acts against them...Israel....who has the most security and check points and gates and walls and secure borders....Israel....
.
.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
The border is VERY porous. It is only now, after more than 55 years of this idiocy, that they are beginning to construct a fence. A fence! Imagine that!
Is this the way of life you so eagerly want to protect?
<strong>paranoia
Is this the way of life you so eagerly want to protect?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Read my posts sir and contribute instead of denigrating.
<strong>
The border is VERY porous. It is only now, after more than 55 years of this idiocy, that they are beginning to construct a fence. A fence! Imagine that!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Heaven forfend that people should want to go and visit their families, work at their businesses or pray at their temples.
<strong>
Heaven forfend that people should want to go and visit their families, work at their businesses or pray at their temples.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Heaven forfend that they should go through security put in place to prevent suicide bombers from waltzing in and blowing up said families, temples and businesses.
We have terrorists teaching in our colleges for pete's sake...
<strong>
Because those two things are harder to sneak by security.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Right. Which is to say that the security was sufficient for the threats the airlines had already identified. It's next to impossible to protect oneself against a threat that one hasn't imagined yet. I'm not saying that the security couldn't have been better. Certainly it could have been. But one also has to recognize that the plan a terrorist makes is always going to be a wildcard. And efforts to defeat that plan neccessarily will require a level of intrusiveness - a loss of freedom - that we weren't willing to tolerate before 9/11.
[ 02-20-2003: Message edited by: spaceman_spiff ]</p>