RIM outsells all Microsoft Windows Phone clones by a very wide margin. Check your facts.
Nobody claims otherwise, but likewise nobody with eyes in their head would claim that RIM is outselling WP7 because it's technically more advanced. RIM at this stage is barely more relevant than Symbian.
Damn how long does it take for nokia to slap an os on a phone. HTC is spitting out devices that are identical in hardware with every os imaginable, that are fully skinned every single month. Nokia is yet to release a single phone with windows os. I think its not a technology issue but the company is dragging its feet just like rim is with qnx for phones. It makes no sense.
But I guess its good for apple, samsung and HTC and motorola who are the only companies capable of making a smartphone these days.
This is nothing. Wait until the first Nokia cloner Microsoft Windows Phones fail just like all the other failed Microsoft Windows Phones.
Still no one can explain how magically Nokia's Microsoft Phones are going to sell when people are not buying the other cloner Windows Phones now. There is no difference in the phones; they all run the same terrible Microsoft OS.
brand loyalty (dunno who is loyal to nokia anymore though )
Nobody claims otherwise, but likewise nobody with eyes in their head would claim that RIM is outselling WP7 because it's technically more advanced. RIM at this stage is barely more relevant than Symbian.
Firefly 7475 originally posted, "Windows Phone OS is already at the top of the "anything but Apple" class and Mango will just extend that lead, and Nokia make rock solid yet beautiful and compelling devices."That is the context of these replies.
And even though RIM hasn't demonstrated that they really know what to do with it, their purchase of QNX arguably puts them ahead, technically, of Microsoft's underlying OS for WP7.
All of which is moot; RIM, Microsoft, Nokia are all becoming increasingly irrelevant in the smartphone market. They'll need a pretty big Hail Mary to get back on top, any one of them.
Firefly 7475 originally posted, "Windows Phone OS is already at the top of the "anything but Apple" class and Mango will just extend that lead, and Nokia make rock solid yet beautiful and compelling devices."That is the context of these replies.
Yes but Firefly never claimed it was top of the sales, he said top of the class - implying technical superiority. Now we could argue that Android is technically superior to WP7, or maybe WebOS - but nothing RIM is currently shipping can claim it.
Quote:
And even though RIM hasn't demonstrated that they really know what to do with it, their purchase of QNX arguably puts them ahead, technically, of Microsoft's underlying OS for WP7.
All of which is moot; RIM, Microsoft, Nokia are all becoming increasingly irrelevant in the smartphone market. They'll need a pretty big Hail Mary to get back on top, any one of them.
QNX for phones is vapourware. It's like if I said Android Jello or whatever the J version will be is the new best mobile OS. QNX is a perfectly solid embedded OS but that's not enough to claim that whatever they build on top will automatically rival WP7 or WebOS.
WP7 is currently a complete commercial failure, but that doesn't stop it being relatively interesting from both a UI design perspective and a technical perspective.
I've thought for over 2 years that Motorola was a good fit with Apple. Now that they have split it makes even more sense for Apple to court MotoMobility (... and I don't mean litigation).
I've thought for over 2 years that Motorola was a good fit with Apple. Now that they have split it makes even more sense for Apple to court MotoMobility (... and I don't mean litigation).
What does moto have to offer beyond the patents? A diffusion brand?
Kudos to Apple and all their hard work, but I don't understand why anyone is surprised by Nokia being passed up by another company and I also don't understand why so many people talk about Nokia like they're so special. They're not.
I've owned a few phones in the past with the Nokia name on them and they've never been any better or worse than any other phone I've ever owned. There was nothing really special or interesting about them. Just another phone in a string of disposable phones. I never once looked at a Nokia phone and thought, "Wow, this company really makes some great stuff."
So, on one hand, good news for Apple. On the other, so freakin' what? They passed another uninspired player in the mobile phone industry.
Kudos to Apple and all their hard work, but I don't understand why anyone is surprised by Nokia being passed up by another company and I also don't understand why so many people talk about Nokia like they're so special. They're not.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that you're in the US.
This is what happens when you tell your customers that your products are shit. There's going to be a lot of angry Finns if Elop can't repair the damage that he's done.
Customers knew Nokia is doing crappy products (at least software wise) for some time now - their sales were dropping pretty much constantly in the last few years.
Announcing WP7 exclusivity and dropping of Symbian/MeeGo almost a year before it actually happened did reduce their earnings for this year, but being silent (and selling their current stuff) would piss off a lot of customers who would end up buying current phones just to learn that, couple of weeks later, what they purchased is extinct.
As it is, it is tough for Nokia, but fair to their customers. If you still want to buy Symbian, go for it - but don't complain later we didn't warn you.
Exactly...all the brand loyalty they had got completely diluted now that they are just another MS vendor.
I disagree. I am coming from Europe and am pretty confident majority of Nokia users - everyday users, not geeks and techies - have no idea what software runs in their current phones. They did and will be buying Nokia because it is Nokia - regardless of OS; or even clueless of OS.
Techies, well, WP7 is well regarded in tech circles. They will not complain either.
Additionally... Nokia was not too strong in US, to my knowledge. I guess there is some patriotism when it comes to brand loyalty in US. With WP7, Nokia is still European brand, but much more American at the same time.
Please note, though, that I said "court"... not necessarily buy... although I'm not sure how Motorola would sell just its patents.
Those patents are probably more valuable than those that Nortel held.
(I also have no problem with Apple having at least one licensed vendor.)
Moto's brand is in terminal decline though, and I don't really see the benefit to Apple of buying it or having it as a licensed vendor. If Apple wants to make iOS multi-brand they could just create their own diffusion label - let's call it Lemon for the sake of comedy.
Lemon phones would run iOS but would be, well, lemons. Cheap, cheerful, scruffy, colourful - the antithesis of Apple. Now C-E firms don't do this, but car firms do, and successfully too. The advantage of making your own lemons is that you can make sure your lemon brand doesn't get ideas above its station - which is far harder with a licensed vendor.
As to the patents - I'm not sure how valuable they are - it would depend partly on who has already been granted licenses I suppose.
Customers knew Nokia is doing crappy products (at least software wise) for some time now - their sales were dropping pretty much constantly in the last few years.
Believe or not but Nokia's smartphone sales had been rising, often by 30-50% YoY, until the last two quarters. What was dropping for years was Nokia's marketshare.
though, and I don't really see the benefit to Apple of buying it or having it as a licensed vendor. If Apple wants to make iOS multi-brand they could just create their own diffusion label - let's call it Lemon for the sake of comedy.
Diffusion brands never sell as well as recognized brands.
Quote:
Lemon phones would run iOS but would be, well, lemons. Cheap, cheerful, scruffy, colourful - the antithesis of Apple. Now C-E firms don't do this, but car firms do, and successfully too. The advantage of making your own lemons is that you can make sure your lemon brand doesn't get ideas above its station - which is far harder with a licensed vendor.
Yeah, you're right... Apple knows nothing about licensing.
Quote:
As to the patents - I'm not sure how valuable they are - it would depend partly on who has already been granted licenses I suppose.
Very very valuable. Motorola has been in the phone space for a long time. Even the licenses that have been granted bring in $$$. (ie: RFID)
Yeh they're doing great, they're losing market share in the US faster than any other handset maker, and it's their strongest market. They haven't turned a steady profit in years. There's a reason that Icahn is trying to sell off the patent portfolio.
Quote:
Diffusion brands never sell as well as recognized brands.
In the car industry some of them sell plenty Mini Cooper, VW Bug, Skoda. In the clothing industry they can be the bulk of income - Armani doesn't make most of his money from the Georgio or Collezione labels.
Quote:
Yeah, you're right... Apple knows nothing about licensing.
Apple pulled out of licensing its OS for this very reason. They wanted the licensees to go out and compete in the low end, but instead they came right back and competed directly with Apple.
Quote:
Very very valuable. Motorola has been in the phone space for a long time. Even the licenses that have been granted bring in $$$. (ie: RFID)
Ok- well you have a problem here. Moto is worth 7Billion, it has no debt, liabilities roughly match assets with around 3 billion in cash left over. If the patents are worth more than 6 billion then Moto's phone business has considerable negative value - ie. the Moto brand value is negative.
Which is it? Is the motorola brand worthless or are the patents worth under 4 billion?
Comments
RIM? Seriously?
RIM outsells all Microsoft Windows Phone clones by a very wide margin. Check your facts.
RIM outsells all Microsoft Windows Phone clones by a very wide margin. Check your facts.
Nobody claims otherwise, but likewise nobody with eyes in their head would claim that RIM is outselling WP7 because it's technically more advanced. RIM at this stage is barely more relevant than Symbian.
Speaking of zombie handset makers, now Carl Icahn wants Motorola Mobility to sell its patent portfolio.
That makes a lot of sense, you have to get the good organs out of the body before it starts to rot!
Once he's sold off the patents then logically you sell the brand-name to one of those chinese box-shifters, and that's it for old Moto.
But I guess its good for apple, samsung and HTC and motorola who are the only companies capable of making a smartphone these days.
This is nothing. Wait until the first Nokia cloner Microsoft Windows Phones fail just like all the other failed Microsoft Windows Phones.
Still no one can explain how magically Nokia's Microsoft Phones are going to sell when people are not buying the other cloner Windows Phones now. There is no difference in the phones; they all run the same terrible Microsoft OS.
brand loyalty (dunno who is loyal to nokia anymore though
Nobody claims otherwise, but likewise nobody with eyes in their head would claim that RIM is outselling WP7 because it's technically more advanced. RIM at this stage is barely more relevant than Symbian.
Firefly 7475 originally posted, "Windows Phone OS is already at the top of the "anything but Apple" class and Mango will just extend that lead, and Nokia make rock solid yet beautiful and compelling devices." That is the context of these replies.
And even though RIM hasn't demonstrated that they really know what to do with it, their purchase of QNX arguably puts them ahead, technically, of Microsoft's underlying OS for WP7.
All of which is moot; RIM, Microsoft, Nokia are all becoming increasingly irrelevant in the smartphone market. They'll need a pretty big Hail Mary to get back on top, any one of them.
Firefly 7475 originally posted, "Windows Phone OS is already at the top of the "anything but Apple" class and Mango will just extend that lead, and Nokia make rock solid yet beautiful and compelling devices." That is the context of these replies.
Yes but Firefly never claimed it was top of the sales, he said top of the class - implying technical superiority. Now we could argue that Android is technically superior to WP7, or maybe WebOS - but nothing RIM is currently shipping can claim it.
And even though RIM hasn't demonstrated that they really know what to do with it, their purchase of QNX arguably puts them ahead, technically, of Microsoft's underlying OS for WP7.
All of which is moot; RIM, Microsoft, Nokia are all becoming increasingly irrelevant in the smartphone market. They'll need a pretty big Hail Mary to get back on top, any one of them.
QNX for phones is vapourware. It's like if I said Android Jello or whatever the J version will be is the new best mobile OS. QNX is a perfectly solid embedded OS but that's not enough to claim that whatever they build on top will automatically rival WP7 or WebOS.
WP7 is currently a complete commercial failure, but that doesn't stop it being relatively interesting from both a UI design perspective and a technical perspective.
Speaking of zombie handset makers, now Carl Icahn wants Motorola Mobility to sell its patent portfolio.
I've thought for over 2 years that Motorola was a good fit with Apple. Now that they have split it makes even more sense for Apple to court MotoMobility (... and I don't mean litigation).
I've thought for over 2 years that Motorola was a good fit with Apple. Now that they have split it makes even more sense for Apple to court MotoMobility (... and I don't mean litigation).
What does moto have to offer beyond the patents? A diffusion brand?
I've owned a few phones in the past with the Nokia name on them and they've never been any better or worse than any other phone I've ever owned. There was nothing really special or interesting about them. Just another phone in a string of disposable phones. I never once looked at a Nokia phone and thought, "Wow, this company really makes some great stuff."
So, on one hand, good news for Apple. On the other, so freakin' what? They passed another uninspired player in the mobile phone industry.
Kudos to Apple and all their hard work, but I don't understand why anyone is surprised by Nokia being passed up by another company and I also don't understand why so many people talk about Nokia like they're so special. They're not.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that you're in the US.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that you're in the US.
Same.
This is what happens when you tell your customers that your products are shit. There's going to be a lot of angry Finns if Elop can't repair the damage that he's done.
Customers knew Nokia is doing crappy products (at least software wise) for some time now - their sales were dropping pretty much constantly in the last few years.
Announcing WP7 exclusivity and dropping of Symbian/MeeGo almost a year before it actually happened did reduce their earnings for this year, but being silent (and selling their current stuff) would piss off a lot of customers who would end up buying current phones just to learn that, couple of weeks later, what they purchased is extinct.
As it is, it is tough for Nokia, but fair to their customers. If you still want to buy Symbian, go for it - but don't complain later we didn't warn you.
What does moto have to offer beyond the patents? A diffusion brand?
A name. Motorola still has brand power.
Please note, though, that I said "court"... not necessarily buy... although I'm not sure how Motorola would sell just its patents.
Those patents are probably more valuable than those that Nortel held.
(I also have no problem with Apple having at least one licensed vendor.)
Exactly...all the brand loyalty they had got completely diluted now that they are just another MS vendor.
I disagree. I am coming from Europe and am pretty confident majority of Nokia users - everyday users, not geeks and techies - have no idea what software runs in their current phones. They did and will be buying Nokia because it is Nokia - regardless of OS; or even clueless of OS.
Techies, well, WP7 is well regarded in tech circles. They will not complain either.
Additionally... Nokia was not too strong in US, to my knowledge. I guess there is some patriotism when it comes to brand loyalty in US. With WP7, Nokia is still European brand, but much more American at the same time.
A name. Motorola still has brand power.
Please note, though, that I said "court"... not necessarily buy... although I'm not sure how Motorola would sell just its patents.
Those patents are probably more valuable than those that Nortel held.
(I also have no problem with Apple having at least one licensed vendor.)
Moto's brand is in terminal decline though, and I don't really see the benefit to Apple of buying it or having it as a licensed vendor. If Apple wants to make iOS multi-brand they could just create their own diffusion label - let's call it Lemon for the sake of comedy.
Lemon phones would run iOS but would be, well, lemons. Cheap, cheerful, scruffy, colourful - the antithesis of Apple. Now C-E firms don't do this, but car firms do, and successfully too. The advantage of making your own lemons is that you can make sure your lemon brand doesn't get ideas above its station - which is far harder with a licensed vendor.
As to the patents - I'm not sure how valuable they are - it would depend partly on who has already been granted licenses I suppose.
Customers knew Nokia is doing crappy products (at least software wise) for some time now - their sales were dropping pretty much constantly in the last few years.
Believe or not but Nokia's smartphone sales had been rising, often by 30-50% YoY, until the last two quarters. What was dropping for years was Nokia's marketshare.
Moto's brand is in terminal decline
Wrong.
though, and I don't really see the benefit to Apple of buying it or having it as a licensed vendor. If Apple wants to make iOS multi-brand they could just create their own diffusion label - let's call it Lemon for the sake of comedy.
Diffusion brands never sell as well as recognized brands.
Lemon phones would run iOS but would be, well, lemons. Cheap, cheerful, scruffy, colourful - the antithesis of Apple. Now C-E firms don't do this, but car firms do, and successfully too. The advantage of making your own lemons is that you can make sure your lemon brand doesn't get ideas above its station - which is far harder with a licensed vendor.
Yeah, you're right... Apple knows nothing about licensing.
As to the patents - I'm not sure how valuable they are - it would depend partly on who has already been granted licenses I suppose.
Very very valuable. Motorola has been in the phone space for a long time. Even the licenses that have been granted bring in $$$. (ie: RFID)
Did you mean to say at the top of the "anything but Apple" class that also isn't Android or RIM?
Because I think you left those two out.
You could argue for Android. You would be wrong, but you could at least you could argue for it... But RIM?
Wrong.
Yeh they're doing great, they're losing market share in the US faster than any other handset maker, and it's their strongest market. They haven't turned a steady profit in years. There's a reason that Icahn is trying to sell off the patent portfolio.
Diffusion brands never sell as well as recognized brands.
In the car industry some of them sell plenty Mini Cooper, VW Bug, Skoda. In the clothing industry they can be the bulk of income - Armani doesn't make most of his money from the Georgio or Collezione labels.
Yeah, you're right... Apple knows nothing about licensing.
Apple pulled out of licensing its OS for this very reason. They wanted the licensees to go out and compete in the low end, but instead they came right back and competed directly with Apple.
Very very valuable. Motorola has been in the phone space for a long time. Even the licenses that have been granted bring in $$$. (ie: RFID)
Ok- well you have a problem here. Moto is worth 7Billion, it has no debt, liabilities roughly match assets with around 3 billion in cash left over. If the patents are worth more than 6 billion then Moto's phone business has considerable negative value - ie. the Moto brand value is negative.
Which is it? Is the motorola brand worthless or are the patents worth under 4 billion?