Yeah, that must be it. Keep spewing that leftist garbage. Too bad it?s completely negated by facts on the ground. If it weren?t for colonialism and the investment in infrastructure that it brought, these people would still be eating each other, rather than endangered guerrillas.
Oops! Hey, I just read this!
For your information, people regard this kind of stuff as a little, well, racist these days.
It's not really on to talk about Africans as 'these people' since, well, what with it being a whole continent and all, and the thousands of different languages and cultural traditions spoken and practised there, and all, it's a bit like saying 'all black people are the same, really, aren't they?'. And cannibalism is is not, and has never been, a defining feature of pan-African culture(s).
Instead, look at the the click-speaking hunter-gatherers of Southern Africa, or the linguistically unique Dogon people of southern Mali, or the so-called 'falasha' Jews of Ethiopia, the 'Beta Yisrael', for example, airlifted to Israel in the 70s and 80s and now manning toilets and cash tills across the country, unable to find work and scorned by orthodox Jewish leaders for celebrating different feast days and using unorthodox forms of prayer: Africa is a wonderfully diverse place.
While all this is quite far from the initial premice of this thread (which was quite silly to begin with), it seems there is much controversy around the fact that cannibalism is still practiced in the more distressed parts of Africa (there were also cases of it being practiced in some very distressed parts of Europe in the last century). The fact is it's presently more practiced in Africa than in Europe.
So while we can discuss the many horrors associated with colonialism (which were no less significant than in Eastern and South-Eastern Asia, than in Africa), most contemporary problems of Africa stem from more recent, mostly economic and political factors, which turned the promissing growth and development trends witnessed between 1950 and 1975/80, into the crisis which goes on there from then on, which is also linked to the 1970s oil crunches and the consequent global economic problems they incurred.
But I guess than would be for another thread.
Quote:
Originally posted by Hassan i_Sabbah
It's not really on to talk about Africans as 'these people' since, well, what with it being a whole continent and all, and the thousands of different languages and cultural traditions spoken and practised there, and all, it's a bit like saying 'all black people are the same, really, aren't they?'. And cannibalism is is not, and has never been, a defining feature of pan-African culture(s).
No such thing as a Pan-African culture, perhaps it might look all the same to some due to certain physical features common to most Africans. You have more commonalities between European cultures than betweem African ones.
There might be a Pan-African ideology, or Panafricanism, or Afrocentrism, or whatever they call it these days, which isn't fundamentally different from Pangermanism or Panislamism.
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Instead, look at the the click-speaking hunter-gatherers of Southern Africa, or the linguistically unique Dogon people of southern Mali, or the so-called 'falasha' Jews of Ethiopia, the 'Beta Yisrael', for example, airlifted to Israel in the 70s and 80s and now manning toilets and cash tills across the country,
You're projecting familiar stereotypes from Anglo-Saxon countries unto a situation you're not familiar with, and of which you don't have even a superficial understanding.
In Israel you'll find recent arrivals (Olim as they're called there) employed in menial jobs, which means Jews from Ethiopia but no less than those from the former USSR. And while they have some integration problems it's mostly due to the unfamiliarity with a modern complex society for people mostly from a rural third-world background, which is to be expected. Given Israeli society's record with integrating people from very different social background, I expect the Ethiopians to mostly overcome their specific probelms within less than 20 years, for two reasons:
The basically democratic, open, and relatively tolerant nature of Israeli society, and the underlying common national identity of the Jews from Ethiopia and those from other diasporas, which are already fusing anyway.
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?unable to find work?
That is true for some of them.
Which no less of a problem for many tenth-generation Englishmen in England.
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?and scorned by orthodox Jewish leaders for celebrating different?
The Ultra-Religious scorn is essentially the same for the Ethiopian Jews as for the secular founders of modern Israel (you know, Zionists) and the average secular or less devout Jewish person, and most of them do as I do, and simply ignore them and their scorn.
So while we can discuss the many horrors associated with colonialism (which were no less significant than in Eastern and South-Eastern Asia, than in Africa), most contemporary problems of Africa stem from more recent, mostly economic and political factors, which turned the promissing growth and development trends witnessed between 1950 and 1975/80, into the crisis which goes on there from then on, which is also linked to the 1970s oil crunches and the consequent global economic problems they incurred.
whoa... Are you actually saying that the problems in african are not for a large part the effects of colonialism, post-colonialism and imperialism?
And, are you using the different situation in South-East Asia as an explanation?
No such thing as a Pan-African culture, perhaps it might look all the same to some due to certain physical features common to most Africans. You have more commonalities between European cultures than betweem African ones.
I certainly agree that there's no such thing as a pan-African culture, which is why I explicitly mentioned the thousands of different languages and cultural practices spoken and practised in Africa in my post, and why I wrote 'pan-African culture(s)' with an 's' in parenthesis. It was an attempt to show that there are unequivocal commonalities in African cultures, as for example with the siNtu (Bantu) speaking peoples (a people with a common origin in the Benue Valley of present-day Cameroon, closely related language and myth) and in the group of siNtu speaking peoples known as the Nguni (of whom the Zulu and the Xhosa are perhaps the best known in the northern hemisphere), whose language, myth and ritual has been influenced by the KhoiSan - click-speaking - people of Southern Africa. Many other African peoples share myth and both cultural and ritual practices which are undoubtedly related. I suppose it's my fault if this wasn't clear.
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You're projecting familiar stereotypes from Anglo-Saxon countries unto a situation you're not familiar with, and of which you don't have even a superficial understanding.
I'm an expert in the oral history and art of southern African hunting and gathering peoples. It's my job. I've travelled all over Africa (I've spent eight of the last eighteen months in South Africa, Namibia and Lesotho) and this tends to innoculate you against easy stereotypes somewhat, so I must disagree with you here.
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There might be a Pan-African ideology, or Panafricanism, or Afrocentrism, or whatever they call it these days, which isn't fundamentally different from Pangermanism or Panislamism.
I think I agree, but 'afrocentrism' is an American term. In my experience, black Africans don't see black people from America as 'our brothers taken from us by slavery' but as Americans (although for some reason South African radio DJs use dodgy American accents all the time: there's probably a thesis in there somewhere.) The states of Africa are far less united in a common cause than those of Europe or North America.
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Given Israeli society's record with integrating people from very different social background, I expect the Ethiopians to mostly overcome their specific probelms within less than 20 years, for two reasons:
The basically democratic, open, and relatively tolerant nature of Israeli society, and the underlying common national identity of the Jews from Ethiopia and those from other diasporas, which are already fusing anyway.
I read an article on the unique difficulties experienced by the Beta Yisrael: racism, back-of-the-queue-negroe's-only-housing and the like. I've done a quick Google scour but can't find it. Anyway, check The Israel Association for Ethiopian Jews. I remember something about a scandal when people refused to take blood donated by Ethiopian Jews. But really, Immanuel, this was just me having a bash at Mika. These Africans who he seems to think eat each other: well, some of them are Jewish.
And finally, when you write that "cannibalism is more practised in Africa than it is in Europe" what exactly are you talking about? What books have you been reading? Cannibalism isn't practised in Africa at all, as far as I know, so I'd like to know where you get this from. I know that a couple of insane African dictators have been into the long pig but that hardly constitutes a cultural practice.
Sigh... what I said was.. OIL OIL OIL how i am tired of hearing about how bush wants oil. I remember they said the same thing about the gulf war. well, in 1991 we won a war and got the oil. So if we were after oil wouldn't we have kept it instead of giving it back to the people after the fighting was over...
Yes of course the current plan does involve control over oil. Oil is the only resource in iraq and is the only chance the country has of becommjing a thriving society. This is not a hidden or obscure secret. in 1991 Saddam burned 700 oil wells. This is Iraq's only resource if this happens again it will be a disaster for iraq. And bush is actually trying to help the people of iraq. yes bush plans to rebuild the economy so that the country can have better schools, food, medicine, etc.
what! do you really think that when we gain control of the oil we are going to steal it from iraq?
You do realize that an oil-based economy is extremely centralized and, by its very nature, gives wealth to only a few. Whether that few decide to give the money to the people is the real issue, and in a fractured, devided and scarred country like Iraq, it will be surprising if that happens. WHat makes it all the more unlikely is the Bush Admin's plan to secure the privilaged status of the mid-upper levels of government.
But go on continuing to live in fantasy land.
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Well i do not know everything but i do know that Saddam has proven to be worse than hitler
Slow down! I didn't mean that deep in fantasy land!
It appears you need to re-evaluate your world view.
And finally, when you write that "cannibalism is more practised in Africa than it is in Europe" what exactly are you talking about? What books have you been reading? Cannibalism isn't practised in Africa at all, as far as I know, so I'd like to know where you get this from. I know that a couple of insane African dictators have been into the long pig but that hardly constitutes a cultural practice.
Well, why not do a google search and educate yourself? Just type: "africa cultural cannibalism", and away you go.
By the way, a "guerrilla" is someone who fights using a particular set of loose tactics. A "gorilla" is an endagered mammal with slightly more capacity for ordered thought then you.
In this case, guerrilla/gorilla can be interchanged quite nicely.
KINSHASA, Congo, Jan. 15 (AP) ? A six-day investigation in a remote region in northeast Congo has confirmed systematic cannibalism, rape, torture and killing by rebels in a campaign of atrocities against civilians, with children among the victims, United Nations officials said today.
whoa... Are you actually saying that the problems in african are not for a large part the effects of colonialism, post-colonialism and imperialism?
I am saying that the process of de-colonisation which took place after 1945 was associated with growth and development till the mid-70s, whether in Asia or Africa, however, unlike several countries of East and South-East Asia, many African countries started since ca. 1975 sinking in the sad morass in which they still are.
The myth of the grand imperialist colonialist scheme by old men in Wall Street with cirgars and top hats to keep Africa down, is just that, a myth.
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And, are you using the different situation in South-East Asia as an explanation?
Since the effect of colonialism in these Asian countries was not fundamentally different than in the African countries, I don't see why it would have impacted Afrcan countries differetly than Asian countries, particularly when dealing with the different outcome of the mid-70s processes.
It don't use it to explain why things evolved differently in Africa, but to show colonialism isn't the explanation, or else the outcomes would have been the same in all regoins which suffered coloinialism
No such thing as a Pan-African culture, perhaps it might look all the same to some due to certain physical features common to most Africans. You have more commonalities between European cultures than betweem African ones.
Quote:
Originally posted by Hassan i_Sabbah
I certainly agree that there's no such thing as a pan-African culture, which is why I explicitly mentioned the thousands of different languages and cultural practices spoken and practised in Africa in my post, and why I wrote 'pan-African culture(s)' with an 's' in parenthesis. It was an attempt to show that there are unequivocal commonalities in African cultures, as for example with the siNtu (Bantu) speaking peoples (a people with a common origin in the Benue Valley of present-day Cameroon, closely related language and myth) and in the group of siNtu speaking peoples known as the Nguni (of whom the Zulu and the Xhosa are perhaps the best known in the northern hemisphere), whose language, myth and ritual has been influenced by the KhoiSan - click-speaking - people of Southern Africa. Many other African peoples share myth and both cultural and ritual practices which are undoubtedly related. I suppose it's my fault if this wasn't clear.
Since there is no such thing as a ?Pan-African culture?, there cannot be several several of them either, there are African cultures, which of course my share commonalities, in varying degrees, with other African cultures with which they interact, but the very term ?Pan-African? is political not cultural.
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You're projecting familiar stereotypes from Anglo-Saxon countries unto a situation you're not familiar with, and of which you don't have even a superficial understanding.
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I'm an expert in the oral history and art of southern African hunting and gathering peoples. It's my job. I've travelled all over Africa (I've spent eight of the last eighteen months in South Africa, Namibia and Lesotho) and this tends to innoculate you against easy stereotypes somewhat, so I must disagree with you here.
That's all perfetly fine, however this piece by you posted upthread:
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??airlifted to Israel in the 70s and 80s and now manning toilets and cash tills across the country, unable to find work??
is not about hunters-gatherers in Lesotho or Namibia, but about Jews in Israel, about which you're obviously not an expert, as your stereotypes-laden above quoted piece can show.
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There might be a Pan-African ideology, or Panafricanism, or Afrocentrism, or whatever they call it these days, which isn't fundamentally different from Pangermanism or Panislamism.
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I think I agree, but 'afrocentrism' is an American term. In my experience, black Africans don't see black people from America as 'our brothers taken from us by slavery' but as Americans (although for some reason South African radio DJs use dodgy American accents all the time: there's probably a thesis in there somewhere.) The states of Africa are far less united in a common cause than those of Europe or North America.
Well thank you for that clarification, as I said before I might have confused all these terms since I haven't been following closely all these ideologies and fads.
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Given Israeli society's record with integrating people from very different social background, I expect the Ethiopians to mostly overcome their specific probelms within less than 20 years, for two reasons:
The basically democratic, open, and relatively tolerant nature of Israeli society, and the underlying common national identity of the Jews from Ethiopia and those from other diasporas, which are already fusing anyway.
Quote:
I read an article on the unique difficulties experienced by the Beta Yisrael: racism, back-of-the-queue-negroe's-only-housing and the like. I've done a quick Google scour but can't find it. Anyway, check The Israel Association for Ethiopian Jews. I remember something about a scandal when people refused to take blood donated by Ethiopian Jews. But really, Immanuel, this was just me having a bash at Mika. These Africans who he seems to think eat each other: well, some of them are Jewish.
Since that article-you've-read-once-but-Google-won't-find-it-for-you conforms to the prejudice you have about Israel as a ?racial-supremacist-quasi-fascist-apartheid-state?, you take it at face value and as further confirming your inital prejudice and thus conforting you in keeping it.
The Jews returning from Ethiopia certainly face many difficulties adapting to the realities of Israel, as did every previous wave of Aliyah, still, their condition greatly improved from that of diaspora, and after a while they will overcome thweir present difficulties, so others did.
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And finally, when you write that "cannibalism is more practised in Africa than it is in Europe" what exactly are you talking about?
I'm talking about reports of cases of cannibalism reported in recent years, there are more of them in Africa than in Europe.
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What books have you been reading? Cannibalism isn't practised in Africa at all, as far as I know, so I'd like to know where you get this from. I know that a couple of insane African dictators have been into the long pig but that hardly constitutes a cultural practice.
The fact is that that in distressed, conflict-ridden areas in Africa, there were and still are cases of people eating other people; I do not dwell upon the cultural aspects of these atrocities or lack thereof, and I couldn't care less. It has to be stopped.
And while I'm at it here's another matter which I think deserves clarification:
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The Muslims and Jews of Algeria and Morrocco got on just fine (with butchers that were passed both halal and kosher, mixed bands, indistinguishable sirnames) until colonialism messed it all up after the Second World War. The 'Islamisation' of Africa was over hundreds and hundreds of years ago.
The Jews and Muslims of North Africa did not get on just fine (although it might have looked that way to the Muslims as long as they were running the show), and while it wasn't as bad as in Europe at the time, it certainly wasn't the good ole times you as you paint it. Jews were living under a special discriminatory status, and while pogroms weren't as common as in Russia, they did occur as late as the early 1900s.
French Colonialism certainly improved the condition of the North African Jews , as the special status was abolished and Jews quickly adapted to French culture, and in Algeria which wasn't a colony nor a protectorate but annexed to the France as a group of départements (?L'Algérie c'est la France? was the motto then), Jews were granted French citizernship (décret Crémieux 1870).
The emergence of nationalism, whether in 1850-1950 Eastern Europe or in North Africa and the Middle-East since 1945, meant that religious, linguistic, or national minorities there saw their condition deteriorate, and most Jews left, whether to Israel, Western Europe, or North America.
????????????????????????? ???????????
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Originally posted by New
The question was:
Do you not believe a large part of the current problems in african are related to past colonialism?
Since it might not be clear enough from my previous message, the answer is:
No, I am of the opinion it is related in a larger part to how these countries evolved after colonial empires were dismantled.
It appears you need to re-evaluate your world view.
Or maybe that was meant as some sort of joke? [/B]
OK
I am just curious
if you were president what would you do. most people who oppose war do not offer any soultion at all. I personally do not see doing nothing as an option as the situation would have just gotten worse on its own.
By the way this is a free country and neithor you or I do need to re-evaluate any views at all. I approve of setting up a democratic society for irac as though it is far from perfect it is superior to a dictatorship (unless of course you are the dictator )
Since there is no such thing as a ?Pan-African culture?, there cannot be several several of them either, there are African cultures, which of course my share commonalities, in varying degrees, with other African cultures with which they interact, but the very term ?Pan-African? is political not cultural.
It looks to me like we agree with each other perfectly then. There's no such thing as Pan-African culture. Like I said. Twice. In my posts. WE AGREE WITH EACH OTHER.
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Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
That's all perfetly fine, however this piece by you posted upthread: is not about hunters-gatherers in Lesotho or Namibia, but about Jews in Israel, about which you're obviously not an expert, as your stereotypes-laden above quoted piece can show.
Oh, sorry, my bad. I misunderstood.
So. No racism in Israel then. (Although I have to admit if I were an Ethiopian Jew I'd rather not live next door to Mika - I don't think he'd like me, what with my penchant for human flesh. Or is he the exception that proves the rule?)
Your comments on this please, from the Washington Report on Middle Eastern Affairs:
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The effort that had begun in 1984 was finally completed in mid-1991. Nearly the entire Falasha community of Ethiopia now had a new home in Israel. But there was trouble in paradise. While from a distance many Israelis regarded the Falashas as a romanticized ancient tribe, up close they seemed to see only the color of their skin. Discrimination against the black Jews became widespread, tainting even government policies toward the new immigrants. They were settled in isolated ?development towns? in the Negev desert and Galilee, and soon became afflicted by unemployment, drug problems and crime. One American Jewish activist in Israel noted: ?The fact is that there is a color problem, in the sense that a lot of Israelis don?t really identify with these people.?
A 1995 government education study reported that many Ethiopian elementary schoolchildren were needlessly channeled into classes for the learning-disabled, and teenage Ethiopians were largely schooled in subjects that prepared them for Ethiopians remained housed in the grim trailer parks in the distant development towns, where some of them had been living since the mid-1980s. Moreover, their religious leaders still were not recognized by Israel?s government-sponsored rabbinate, implying that theirs was a less pure form of Judaism than that of other Israelis.
Pent-up resentment in the Falasha community finally erupted in fury on Jan. 24, 1996, when it was learned that Falasha donations to Israel?s national blood bank were routinely thrown away. They were not pacified by the excuse given. Zvi Ben Yishai, chairman of the National AIDS Committee, said it was because the Falashas had fifty times the incidence of AIDS as other Israelis. He said the practice was ?justified for the protection of the public.?
However, Yoram Lass, a member of parliament and former director general of the health ministry, described the policy as ?racist and unfounded scientifically.? He said Americans had a much higher AIDS rate but Israel would never consider banning blood donations byAmerican Jews.
The revelation horrified the Falashas, who now number around 50,000. Adiso Masala, head of the Organization of Ethiopian Immigrants, said: ?This is pure racism. We are blood brothers with the Israelis but our blood is thrown in the garbage because we are black.? Benny Mekonnen, 30, a reserve army major, said he was so mad that he was going to leave Israel: ?I gave blood every year, once a year. They took our blood and threw it in the garbage?I am very, very angry.?
On Jan. 28, some 10,000 Falashas protested at the prime minister?s office in Jerusalem and were brutally met by riot police who used batons, rubber bullets, water cannon and tear gas against them. The Falashas carried placards reading ?Apartheid in Israel? and ?Our blood is as red as yours and we are just as Jewish as you are.?14 Prime Minister Shimon Peres promised to investigate their complaints. But on the basis of their experience during more than a decade in Israel, the Falashas seem doomed to a fate of suffering the same isolation in Israel that they fled in Ethiopia.
Quote:
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
And while I'm at it here's another matter which I think deserves clarification:
The Jews and Muslims of North Africa did not get on just fine (although it might have looked that way to the Muslims as long as they were running the show), and while it wasn't as bad as in Europe at the time, it
[snip: Muslims is bad folks, etc.]
I was told that the Algerian Muslim and Jewish communities lived together without prejudice by Lili Boniche, an 80-year-old Jewish musician and national institution from Algeria. So I can't provide you with a link, only the first-hand testimony of a Jewish man who was born and grew up in Algeria.
I might be able to provide you with his address if you'd like to PM me and you can discuss it with him yourself.
Finally, with regard to African cannibalism, you've provided some vague evidence that in times of famine people have eaten each other. Starving people will do that. It still doesn't make it a distinctly African cultural practice and your sort of arguing that it does is kinda... curious. Especially in the light of your suggestion that famines in Africa are more to do with a sort of in-built African inability for self-government.
Finally, Mika, you are a racist ****ing dickhead of the first order, quite brimming with hate.
(This may be an ad hominem attack, but it has the advantage of being unimpeachably accurate.)
Since there is no such thing as a ?Pan-African culture?, there cannot be several several of them either, there are African cultures, which of course my share commonalities, in varying degrees, with other African cultures with which they interact, but the very term ?Pan-African? is political not cultural.
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Originally posted by Hassan i_Sabbah
It looks to me like we agree with each other perfectly then. There's no such thing as Pan-African culture. Like I said. Twice. In my posts. WE AGREE WITH EACH OTHER.
Excellent.
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That's all perfectly fine, however this piece by you posted upthread: is not about hunters-gatherers in Lesotho or Namibia, but about Jews in Israel, about which you're obviously not an expert, as your stereotypes-laden above quoted piece can show.
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Oh, sorry, my bad. I misunderstood.
So. No racism in Israel then.
No, it's not that there's ?no racism in Israel?, it's that Israel is not inheretly or fundamentally racist; some people there are racist, just like in any normal population, most are not. From my experience, racism is much less pronounced there than in most Western countries.
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Your comments on this please, from the Washington Report on Middle Eastern Affairs:
[article from the Washington Report]
The notoriously anti-Israeli Washington Report, of which it is said that this is where old State Department Arabists go to die, but nevermind.
The ?spillt blood? scandal was caused by the fear public health civil servants had of the high incidence of AIDS in Africa, which is a legitimate and easily understandable fear.
According to surveys done by the Jewish agency, many Jews in Ethiopia had actually a low incidence of HIV due to the relative isolation of their settlements (the proportions increase though for those who spent long time in Ethiopian refugee camps). But due to the usual bureaucratic miscommunications, the Israeli public health authorities were not duly informed. So they decided to get rid of the blood for fear of contamination but didn't tell the donors so not to hurt their feelings. Given that little remains a secret for long in such a small country, the Ethiopian Jewss naturally felt hurt once learning of it, hence some public expressions of anger, which is understandable too.
That scandals such as these happen is to be expected (nowhere did I describe the situation as idyllic), yet it's very mild in comparison to the problems experienced by the Sefaradim/Mizrahim in the 50s and 60s, which still looked like a garden party in comparison to what is called ?communal riots? in places like Pakistan.
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And while I'm at it here's another matter which I think deserves clarification:
The Jews and Muslims of North Africa did not get on just fine (although it might have looked that way to the Muslims as long as they were running the show), and while it wasn't as bad as in Europe at the time, it
[snip: Muslims is bad folks, etc.]
How easily you put words in my post, which weren't there to begin with. No, it's not that ?Muslims is bad folks?, it's simply that under Muslim rule in North Africa, Jews had an inferior status, and suffered from persecutions, although it looked benign in comparison to the persecutions suffered by their brethren in Europe.
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I was told that the Algerian Muslim and Jewish communities lived together without prejudice by Lili Boniche, an 80-year-old Jewish musician and national institution from Algeria. So I can't provide you with a link, only the first-hand testimony of a Jewish man who was born and grew up in Algeria.
If you weren't following, let me reiterate:
Algeria was under French rule from 1830 to 1962, that is ?French rule? as in ?not Muslim rule?. And it was annexed to the republic and then governed as Provence or Burgondy were (and they grew some fine wine in Algeria too) and Algerian Jews have been enjoying full French citizenship from 1870 to 1940 and then from 1945 till now (the hiatus of the Vichy status for the Jews having been extended in Algeria until the end of the war as part of the conditions of surrender of the Algiers Vichystes).
So what your friend actually described to you was in fact the pleasant togetherness experienced under French colonial rule.
It all ended in 1962, when De Gaulle handed Algeria to the F.L.N. on a plate, resulting with the immediate expusion from Algeria of all non-Muslims as well as of those Muslims who sided with France (the Harkis) or who had acquired French citizenship.
While I believed at the time that Algerian independence as ?inévitable et même souhaitable?, I thought it would be a disaster to give it to the far-left nationalists of the F.L.N. and that France should have taken example from the Brits in Malaya and Borneo: winning militarily against the guerilla while preparing for a more sound local regime to which the country was to be handed over. All bygones now.
Part of my extended family had lived in North Africa, Algeria included, so this is a matter I'm rather familiar with.
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Finally, with regard to African cannibalism, you've provided some vague evidence that in times of famine people have eaten each other. Starving people will do that. It still doesn't make it a distinctly African cultural practice and your sort of arguing that it does is kinda... curious.
I told you I don't care the least about whether there are cultural aspects to the occurences of cannibalism or not, it's an atrocity which has to be stopped, period.
Other than that I have no sensibilty whatsoever to local cultures when it comes to uprooting atrocious practices, which need to be dealt in the way the British Raj dealt with the practice of suttee, just in case you'd ask.
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Especially in the light of your suggestion that famines in Africa are more to do with a sort of in-built African inability for self-government.
How easily suggestible you are to infer things from what isn't really there.
That those African countries couldn't overcome the economic difficulties which arose from the mid-1970s crisis, with the same measure of success as some East Asian countries did, doesn't have to do with any ?sort of in-built African inability for self-government? (sic) as you put it.
They had simply made some erroneous policy choices, which is only human.
Where I come from we don't engage in futile violent sports to console wounded honour, this is a Goyim Nakhes, or ?furriners' leisure?. So I shall decline the invitation.
I'd advise you not to mistake it as an expression of fear or lack of resolve, as such approach from you which might lead you to consequences I would live to regret.
I wasn't really demanding a duel. I was joking. Duels are illegal. You can't board a plane with a pair of nail scissors, let alone a fencing epée; no-one fights duels.
I was trying to say that we're being silly; I was trying to back out of a foolish argument about nothing by making a joke.
I don't really want to fight you with a sword or a gun.
If you weren't joking too - as I hope you were - you now look like a prize twat.
Comments
Originally posted by JC
[B
Well i do not know everything but i do know that Saddam has proven to be worse than hitler [/B]
Saddam is evil, for sure, but worse than Hitler it appears to me difficult. Could you elaborate ?
BTW this discussion is not of a tremendeous importance, to be a bad guy you don't really nead to be more worse than Hitler.
Originally posted by Powerdoc
to be a bad guy you don't really nead to be more worse than Hitler.
Does Bush intend to bomb every bad guy on earth? I want my ticket to the moon.
Originally posted by mika_mk1984
[B]I think you have that backwards.
Yeah, that must be it. Keep spewing that leftist garbage. Too bad it?s completely negated by facts on the ground. If it weren?t for colonialism and the investment in infrastructure that it brought, these people would still be eating each other, rather than endangered guerrillas.
Oops! Hey, I just read this!
For your information, people regard this kind of stuff as a little, well, racist these days.
It's not really on to talk about Africans as 'these people' since, well, what with it being a whole continent and all, and the thousands of different languages and cultural traditions spoken and practised there, and all, it's a bit like saying 'all black people are the same, really, aren't they?'. And cannibalism is is not, and has never been, a defining feature of pan-African culture(s).
Instead, look at the the click-speaking hunter-gatherers of Southern Africa, or the linguistically unique Dogon people of southern Mali, or the so-called 'falasha' Jews of Ethiopia, the 'Beta Yisrael', for example, airlifted to Israel in the 70s and 80s and now manning toilets and cash tills across the country, unable to find work and scorned by orthodox Jewish leaders for celebrating different feast days and using unorthodox forms of prayer: Africa is a wonderfully diverse place.
So while we can discuss the many horrors associated with colonialism (which were no less significant than in Eastern and South-Eastern Asia, than in Africa), most contemporary problems of Africa stem from more recent, mostly economic and political factors, which turned the promissing growth and development trends witnessed between 1950 and 1975/80, into the crisis which goes on there from then on, which is also linked to the 1970s oil crunches and the consequent global economic problems they incurred.
But I guess than would be for another thread.
Originally posted by Hassan i_Sabbah
It's not really on to talk about Africans as 'these people' since, well, what with it being a whole continent and all, and the thousands of different languages and cultural traditions spoken and practised there, and all, it's a bit like saying 'all black people are the same, really, aren't they?'. And cannibalism is is not, and has never been, a defining feature of pan-African culture(s).
No such thing as a Pan-African culture, perhaps it might look all the same to some due to certain physical features common to most Africans. You have more commonalities between European cultures than betweem African ones.
There might be a Pan-African ideology, or Panafricanism, or Afrocentrism, or whatever they call it these days, which isn't fundamentally different from Pangermanism or Panislamism.
Instead, look at the the click-speaking hunter-gatherers of Southern Africa, or the linguistically unique Dogon people of southern Mali, or the so-called 'falasha' Jews of Ethiopia, the 'Beta Yisrael', for example, airlifted to Israel in the 70s and 80s and now manning toilets and cash tills across the country,
You're projecting familiar stereotypes from Anglo-Saxon countries unto a situation you're not familiar with, and of which you don't have even a superficial understanding.
In Israel you'll find recent arrivals (Olim as they're called there) employed in menial jobs, which means Jews from Ethiopia but no less than those from the former USSR. And while they have some integration problems it's mostly due to the unfamiliarity with a modern complex society for people mostly from a rural third-world background, which is to be expected. Given Israeli society's record with integrating people from very different social background, I expect the Ethiopians to mostly overcome their specific probelms within less than 20 years, for two reasons:
The basically democratic, open, and relatively tolerant nature of Israeli society, and the underlying common national identity of the Jews from Ethiopia and those from other diasporas, which are already fusing anyway.
?unable to find work?
That is true for some of them.
Which no less of a problem for many tenth-generation Englishmen in England.
?and scorned by orthodox Jewish leaders for celebrating different?
The Ultra-Religious scorn is essentially the same for the Ethiopian Jews as for the secular founders of modern Israel (you know, Zionists) and the average secular or less devout Jewish person, and most of them do as I do, and simply ignore them and their scorn.
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
So while we can discuss the many horrors associated with colonialism (which were no less significant than in Eastern and South-Eastern Asia, than in Africa), most contemporary problems of Africa stem from more recent, mostly economic and political factors, which turned the promissing growth and development trends witnessed between 1950 and 1975/80, into the crisis which goes on there from then on, which is also linked to the 1970s oil crunches and the consequent global economic problems they incurred.
whoa... Are you actually saying that the problems in african are not for a large part the effects of colonialism, post-colonialism and imperialism?
And, are you using the different situation in South-East Asia as an explanation?
Boy, another thread is needy indeedy...
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
No such thing as a Pan-African culture, perhaps it might look all the same to some due to certain physical features common to most Africans. You have more commonalities between European cultures than betweem African ones.
I certainly agree that there's no such thing as a pan-African culture, which is why I explicitly mentioned the thousands of different languages and cultural practices spoken and practised in Africa in my post, and why I wrote 'pan-African culture(s)' with an 's' in parenthesis. It was an attempt to show that there are unequivocal commonalities in African cultures, as for example with the siNtu (Bantu) speaking peoples (a people with a common origin in the Benue Valley of present-day Cameroon, closely related language and myth) and in the group of siNtu speaking peoples known as the Nguni (of whom the Zulu and the Xhosa are perhaps the best known in the northern hemisphere), whose language, myth and ritual has been influenced by the KhoiSan - click-speaking - people of Southern Africa. Many other African peoples share myth and both cultural and ritual practices which are undoubtedly related. I suppose it's my fault if this wasn't clear.
You're projecting familiar stereotypes from Anglo-Saxon countries unto a situation you're not familiar with, and of which you don't have even a superficial understanding.
I'm an expert in the oral history and art of southern African hunting and gathering peoples. It's my job. I've travelled all over Africa (I've spent eight of the last eighteen months in South Africa, Namibia and Lesotho) and this tends to innoculate you against easy stereotypes somewhat, so I must disagree with you here.
There might be a Pan-African ideology, or Panafricanism, or Afrocentrism, or whatever they call it these days, which isn't fundamentally different from Pangermanism or Panislamism.
I think I agree, but 'afrocentrism' is an American term. In my experience, black Africans don't see black people from America as 'our brothers taken from us by slavery' but as Americans (although for some reason South African radio DJs use dodgy American accents all the time: there's probably a thesis in there somewhere.) The states of Africa are far less united in a common cause than those of Europe or North America.
Given Israeli society's record with integrating people from very different social background, I expect the Ethiopians to mostly overcome their specific probelms within less than 20 years, for two reasons:
The basically democratic, open, and relatively tolerant nature of Israeli society, and the underlying common national identity of the Jews from Ethiopia and those from other diasporas, which are already fusing anyway.
I read an article on the unique difficulties experienced by the Beta Yisrael: racism, back-of-the-queue-negroe's-only-housing and the like. I've done a quick Google scour but can't find it. Anyway, check The Israel Association for Ethiopian Jews. I remember something about a scandal when people refused to take blood donated by Ethiopian Jews. But really, Immanuel, this was just me having a bash at Mika. These Africans who he seems to think eat each other: well, some of them are Jewish.
And finally, when you write that "cannibalism is more practised in Africa than it is in Europe" what exactly are you talking about? What books have you been reading? Cannibalism isn't practised in Africa at all, as far as I know, so I'd like to know where you get this from. I know that a couple of insane African dictators have been into the long pig but that hardly constitutes a cultural practice.
Originally posted by JC
Sigh... what I said was.. OIL OIL OIL how i am tired of hearing about how bush wants oil. I remember they said the same thing about the gulf war. well, in 1991 we won a war and got the oil. So if we were after oil wouldn't we have kept it instead of giving it back to the people after the fighting was over...
Yes of course the current plan does involve control over oil. Oil is the only resource in iraq and is the only chance the country has of becommjing a thriving society. This is not a hidden or obscure secret. in 1991 Saddam burned 700 oil wells. This is Iraq's only resource if this happens again it will be a disaster for iraq. And bush is actually trying to help the people of iraq. yes bush plans to rebuild the economy so that the country can have better schools, food, medicine, etc.
what! do you really think that when we gain control of the oil we are going to steal it from iraq?
You do realize that an oil-based economy is extremely centralized and, by its very nature, gives wealth to only a few. Whether that few decide to give the money to the people is the real issue, and in a fractured, devided and scarred country like Iraq, it will be surprising if that happens. WHat makes it all the more unlikely is the Bush Admin's plan to secure the privilaged status of the mid-upper levels of government.
But go on continuing to live in fantasy land.
Well i do not know everything but i do know that Saddam has proven to be worse than hitler
Slow down! I didn't mean that deep in fantasy land!
It appears you need to re-evaluate your world view.
Or maybe that was meant as some sort of joke?
Read my signature.
Originally posted by Hassan i_Sabbah
.
.
And finally, when you write that "cannibalism is more practised in Africa than it is in Europe" what exactly are you talking about? What books have you been reading? Cannibalism isn't practised in Africa at all, as far as I know, so I'd like to know where you get this from. I know that a couple of insane African dictators have been into the long pig but that hardly constitutes a cultural practice.
Well, why not do a google search and educate yourself? Just type: "africa cultural cannibalism", and away you go.
Originally posted by Harald
By the way, a "guerrilla" is someone who fights using a particular set of loose tactics. A "gorilla" is an endagered mammal with slightly more capacity for ordered thought then you.
In this case, guerrilla/gorilla can be interchanged quite nicely.
] http://www.genocidewatch.org/Congoca...sJanuary16.htm
KINSHASA, Congo, Jan. 15 (AP) ? A six-day investigation in a remote region in northeast Congo has confirmed systematic cannibalism, rape, torture and killing by rebels in a campaign of atrocities against civilians, with children among the victims, United Nations officials said today.
Originally posted by New
whoa... Are you actually saying that the problems in african are not for a large part the effects of colonialism, post-colonialism and imperialism?
I am saying that the process of de-colonisation which took place after 1945 was associated with growth and development till the mid-70s, whether in Asia or Africa, however, unlike several countries of East and South-East Asia, many African countries started since ca. 1975 sinking in the sad morass in which they still are.
The myth of the grand imperialist colonialist scheme by old men in Wall Street with cirgars and top hats to keep Africa down, is just that, a myth.
And, are you using the different situation in South-East Asia as an explanation?
Since the effect of colonialism in these Asian countries was not fundamentally different than in the African countries, I don't see why it would have impacted Afrcan countries differetly than Asian countries, particularly when dealing with the different outcome of the mid-70s processes.
It don't use it to explain why things evolved differently in Africa, but to show colonialism isn't the explanation, or else the outcomes would have been the same in all regoins which suffered coloinialism
Previously posted by Immanuel Goldstein
But I guess than would be for another thread.
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
The myth of the grand imperialist colonialist scheme by old men in Wall Street with cirgars and top hats to keep Africa down, is just that, a myth.
Nobody hear ever said they believed that was the case.
The question was:
Do you not believe a large part of the current problems in african are related to past colonialism?
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
No such thing as a Pan-African culture, perhaps it might look all the same to some due to certain physical features common to most Africans. You have more commonalities between European cultures than betweem African ones.
Originally posted by Hassan i_Sabbah
I certainly agree that there's no such thing as a pan-African culture, which is why I explicitly mentioned the thousands of different languages and cultural practices spoken and practised in Africa in my post, and why I wrote 'pan-African culture(s)' with an 's' in parenthesis. It was an attempt to show that there are unequivocal commonalities in African cultures, as for example with the siNtu (Bantu) speaking peoples (a people with a common origin in the Benue Valley of present-day Cameroon, closely related language and myth) and in the group of siNtu speaking peoples known as the Nguni (of whom the Zulu and the Xhosa are perhaps the best known in the northern hemisphere), whose language, myth and ritual has been influenced by the KhoiSan - click-speaking - people of Southern Africa. Many other African peoples share myth and both cultural and ritual practices which are undoubtedly related. I suppose it's my fault if this wasn't clear.
Since there is no such thing as a ?Pan-African culture?, there cannot be several several of them either, there are African cultures, which of course my share commonalities, in varying degrees, with other African cultures with which they interact, but the very term ?Pan-African? is political not cultural.
You're projecting familiar stereotypes from Anglo-Saxon countries unto a situation you're not familiar with, and of which you don't have even a superficial understanding.
I'm an expert in the oral history and art of southern African hunting and gathering peoples. It's my job. I've travelled all over Africa (I've spent eight of the last eighteen months in South Africa, Namibia and Lesotho) and this tends to innoculate you against easy stereotypes somewhat, so I must disagree with you here.
That's all perfetly fine, however this piece by you posted upthread:
??airlifted to Israel in the 70s and 80s and now manning toilets and cash tills across the country, unable to find work??
is not about hunters-gatherers in Lesotho or Namibia, but about Jews in Israel, about which you're obviously not an expert, as your stereotypes-laden above quoted piece can show.
There might be a Pan-African ideology, or Panafricanism, or Afrocentrism, or whatever they call it these days, which isn't fundamentally different from Pangermanism or Panislamism.
I think I agree, but 'afrocentrism' is an American term. In my experience, black Africans don't see black people from America as 'our brothers taken from us by slavery' but as Americans (although for some reason South African radio DJs use dodgy American accents all the time: there's probably a thesis in there somewhere.) The states of Africa are far less united in a common cause than those of Europe or North America.
Well thank you for that clarification, as I said before I might have confused all these terms since I haven't been following closely all these ideologies and fads.
Given Israeli society's record with integrating people from very different social background, I expect the Ethiopians to mostly overcome their specific probelms within less than 20 years, for two reasons:
The basically democratic, open, and relatively tolerant nature of Israeli society, and the underlying common national identity of the Jews from Ethiopia and those from other diasporas, which are already fusing anyway.
I read an article on the unique difficulties experienced by the Beta Yisrael: racism, back-of-the-queue-negroe's-only-housing and the like. I've done a quick Google scour but can't find it. Anyway, check The Israel Association for Ethiopian Jews. I remember something about a scandal when people refused to take blood donated by Ethiopian Jews. But really, Immanuel, this was just me having a bash at Mika. These Africans who he seems to think eat each other: well, some of them are Jewish.
Since that article-you've-read-once-but-Google-won't-find-it-for-you conforms to the prejudice you have about Israel as a ?racial-supremacist-quasi-fascist-apartheid-state?, you take it at face value and as further confirming your inital prejudice and thus conforting you in keeping it.
The Jews returning from Ethiopia certainly face many difficulties adapting to the realities of Israel, as did every previous wave of Aliyah, still, their condition greatly improved from that of diaspora, and after a while they will overcome thweir present difficulties, so others did.
And finally, when you write that "cannibalism is more practised in Africa than it is in Europe" what exactly are you talking about?
I'm talking about reports of cases of cannibalism reported in recent years, there are more of them in Africa than in Europe.
What books have you been reading? Cannibalism isn't practised in Africa at all, as far as I know, so I'd like to know where you get this from. I know that a couple of insane African dictators have been into the long pig but that hardly constitutes a cultural practice.
The fact is that that in distressed, conflict-ridden areas in Africa, there were and still are cases of people eating other people; I do not dwell upon the cultural aspects of these atrocities or lack thereof, and I couldn't care less. It has to be stopped.
And while I'm at it here's another matter which I think deserves clarification:
The Muslims and Jews of Algeria and Morrocco got on just fine (with butchers that were passed both halal and kosher, mixed bands, indistinguishable sirnames) until colonialism messed it all up after the Second World War. The 'Islamisation' of Africa was over hundreds and hundreds of years ago.
The Jews and Muslims of North Africa did not get on just fine (although it might have looked that way to the Muslims as long as they were running the show), and while it wasn't as bad as in Europe at the time, it certainly wasn't the good ole times you as you paint it. Jews were living under a special discriminatory status, and while pogroms weren't as common as in Russia, they did occur as late as the early 1900s.
French Colonialism certainly improved the condition of the North African Jews , as the special status was abolished and Jews quickly adapted to French culture, and in Algeria which wasn't a colony nor a protectorate but annexed to the France as a group of départements (?L'Algérie c'est la France? was the motto then), Jews were granted French citizernship (décret Crémieux 1870).
The emergence of nationalism, whether in 1850-1950 Eastern Europe or in North Africa and the Middle-East since 1945, meant that religious, linguistic, or national minorities there saw their condition deteriorate, and most Jews left, whether to Israel, Western Europe, or North America.
????????????????????????? ???????????
Originally posted by New
The question was:
Do you not believe a large part of the current problems in african are related to past colonialism?
Since it might not be clear enough from my previous message, the answer is:
No, I am of the opinion it is related in a larger part to how these countries evolved after colonial empires were dismantled.
I hope it's clearer now.
Originally posted by giant
[
It appears you need to re-evaluate your world view.
Or maybe that was meant as some sort of joke? [/B]
OK
I am just curious
if you were president what would you do. most people who oppose war do not offer any soultion at all. I personally do not see doing nothing as an option as the situation would have just gotten worse on its own.
By the way this is a free country and neithor you or I do need to re-evaluate any views at all. I approve of setting up a democratic society for irac as though it is far from perfect it is superior to a dictatorship (unless of course you are the dictator
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
Since there is no such thing as a ?Pan-African culture?, there cannot be several several of them either, there are African cultures, which of course my share commonalities, in varying degrees, with other African cultures with which they interact, but the very term ?Pan-African? is political not cultural.
It looks to me like we agree with each other perfectly then. There's no such thing as Pan-African culture. Like I said. Twice. In my posts. WE AGREE WITH EACH OTHER.
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
That's all perfetly fine, however this piece by you posted upthread: is not about hunters-gatherers in Lesotho or Namibia, but about Jews in Israel, about which you're obviously not an expert, as your stereotypes-laden above quoted piece can show.
Oh, sorry, my bad. I misunderstood.
So. No racism in Israel then. (Although I have to admit if I were an Ethiopian Jew I'd rather not live next door to Mika - I don't think he'd like me, what with my penchant for human flesh. Or is he the exception that proves the rule?)
Your comments on this please, from the Washington Report on Middle Eastern Affairs:
The effort that had begun in 1984 was finally completed in mid-1991. Nearly the entire Falasha community of Ethiopia now had a new home in Israel. But there was trouble in paradise. While from a distance many Israelis regarded the Falashas as a romanticized ancient tribe, up close they seemed to see only the color of their skin. Discrimination against the black Jews became widespread, tainting even government policies toward the new immigrants. They were settled in isolated ?development towns? in the Negev desert and Galilee, and soon became afflicted by unemployment, drug problems and crime. One American Jewish activist in Israel noted: ?The fact is that there is a color problem, in the sense that a lot of Israelis don?t really identify with these people.?
A 1995 government education study reported that many Ethiopian elementary schoolchildren were needlessly channeled into classes for the learning-disabled, and teenage Ethiopians were largely schooled in subjects that prepared them for Ethiopians remained housed in the grim trailer parks in the distant development towns, where some of them had been living since the mid-1980s. Moreover, their religious leaders still were not recognized by Israel?s government-sponsored rabbinate, implying that theirs was a less pure form of Judaism than that of other Israelis.
Pent-up resentment in the Falasha community finally erupted in fury on Jan. 24, 1996, when it was learned that Falasha donations to Israel?s national blood bank were routinely thrown away. They were not pacified by the excuse given. Zvi Ben Yishai, chairman of the National AIDS Committee, said it was because the Falashas had fifty times the incidence of AIDS as other Israelis. He said the practice was ?justified for the protection of the public.?
However, Yoram Lass, a member of parliament and former director general of the health ministry, described the policy as ?racist and unfounded scientifically.? He said Americans had a much higher AIDS rate but Israel would never consider banning blood donations byAmerican Jews.
The revelation horrified the Falashas, who now number around 50,000. Adiso Masala, head of the Organization of Ethiopian Immigrants, said: ?This is pure racism. We are blood brothers with the Israelis but our blood is thrown in the garbage because we are black.? Benny Mekonnen, 30, a reserve army major, said he was so mad that he was going to leave Israel: ?I gave blood every year, once a year. They took our blood and threw it in the garbage?I am very, very angry.?
On Jan. 28, some 10,000 Falashas protested at the prime minister?s office in Jerusalem and were brutally met by riot police who used batons, rubber bullets, water cannon and tear gas against them. The Falashas carried placards reading ?Apartheid in Israel? and ?Our blood is as red as yours and we are just as Jewish as you are.?14 Prime Minister Shimon Peres promised to investigate their complaints. But on the basis of their experience during more than a decade in Israel, the Falashas seem doomed to a fate of suffering the same isolation in Israel that they fled in Ethiopia.
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
And while I'm at it here's another matter which I think deserves clarification:
The Jews and Muslims of North Africa did not get on just fine (although it might have looked that way to the Muslims as long as they were running the show), and while it wasn't as bad as in Europe at the time, it
[snip: Muslims is bad folks, etc.]
I was told that the Algerian Muslim and Jewish communities lived together without prejudice by Lili Boniche, an 80-year-old Jewish musician and national institution from Algeria. So I can't provide you with a link, only the first-hand testimony of a Jewish man who was born and grew up in Algeria.
I might be able to provide you with his address if you'd like to PM me and you can discuss it with him yourself.
Finally, with regard to African cannibalism, you've provided some vague evidence that in times of famine people have eaten each other. Starving people will do that. It still doesn't make it a distinctly African cultural practice and your sort of arguing that it does is kinda... curious. Especially in the light of your suggestion that famines in Africa are more to do with a sort of in-built African inability for self-government.
Finally, Mika, you are a racist ****ing dickhead of the first order, quite brimming with hate.
(This may be an ad hominem attack, but it has the advantage of being unimpeachably accurate.)
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
Since there is no such thing as a ?Pan-African culture?, there cannot be several several of them either, there are African cultures, which of course my share commonalities, in varying degrees, with other African cultures with which they interact, but the very term ?Pan-African? is political not cultural.
Originally posted by Hassan i_Sabbah
It looks to me like we agree with each other perfectly then. There's no such thing as Pan-African culture. Like I said. Twice. In my posts. WE AGREE WITH EACH OTHER.
Excellent.
That's all perfectly fine, however this piece by you posted upthread: is not about hunters-gatherers in Lesotho or Namibia, but about Jews in Israel, about which you're obviously not an expert, as your stereotypes-laden above quoted piece can show.
Oh, sorry, my bad. I misunderstood.
So. No racism in Israel then.
No, it's not that there's ?no racism in Israel?, it's that Israel is not inheretly or fundamentally racist; some people there are racist, just like in any normal population, most are not. From my experience, racism is much less pronounced there than in most Western countries.
Your comments on this please, from the Washington Report on Middle Eastern Affairs:
[article from the Washington Report]
The notoriously anti-Israeli Washington Report, of which it is said that this is where old State Department Arabists go to die, but nevermind.
The ?spillt blood? scandal was caused by the fear public health civil servants had of the high incidence of AIDS in Africa, which is a legitimate and easily understandable fear.
According to surveys done by the Jewish agency, many Jews in Ethiopia had actually a low incidence of HIV due to the relative isolation of their settlements (the proportions increase though for those who spent long time in Ethiopian refugee camps). But due to the usual bureaucratic miscommunications, the Israeli public health authorities were not duly informed. So they decided to get rid of the blood for fear of contamination but didn't tell the donors so not to hurt their feelings. Given that little remains a secret for long in such a small country, the Ethiopian Jewss naturally felt hurt once learning of it, hence some public expressions of anger, which is understandable too.
That scandals such as these happen is to be expected (nowhere did I describe the situation as idyllic), yet it's very mild in comparison to the problems experienced by the Sefaradim/Mizrahim in the 50s and 60s, which still looked like a garden party in comparison to what is called ?communal riots? in places like Pakistan.
And while I'm at it here's another matter which I think deserves clarification:
The Jews and Muslims of North Africa did not get on just fine (although it might have looked that way to the Muslims as long as they were running the show), and while it wasn't as bad as in Europe at the time, it
[snip: Muslims is bad folks, etc.]
How easily you put words in my post, which weren't there to begin with. No, it's not that ?Muslims is bad folks?, it's simply that under Muslim rule in North Africa, Jews had an inferior status, and suffered from persecutions, although it looked benign in comparison to the persecutions suffered by their brethren in Europe.
I was told that the Algerian Muslim and Jewish communities lived together without prejudice by Lili Boniche, an 80-year-old Jewish musician and national institution from Algeria. So I can't provide you with a link, only the first-hand testimony of a Jewish man who was born and grew up in Algeria.
If you weren't following, let me reiterate:
Algeria was under French rule from 1830 to 1962, that is ?French rule? as in ?not Muslim rule?. And it was annexed to the republic and then governed as Provence or Burgondy were (and they grew some fine wine in Algeria too) and Algerian Jews have been enjoying full French citizenship from 1870 to 1940 and then from 1945 till now (the hiatus of the Vichy status for the Jews having been extended in Algeria until the end of the war as part of the conditions of surrender of the Algiers Vichystes).
So what your friend actually described to you was in fact the pleasant togetherness experienced under French colonial rule.
It all ended in 1962, when De Gaulle handed Algeria to the F.L.N. on a plate, resulting with the immediate expusion from Algeria of all non-Muslims as well as of those Muslims who sided with France (the Harkis) or who had acquired French citizenship.
While I believed at the time that Algerian independence as ?inévitable et même souhaitable?, I thought it would be a disaster to give it to the far-left nationalists of the F.L.N. and that France should have taken example from the Brits in Malaya and Borneo: winning militarily against the guerilla while preparing for a more sound local regime to which the country was to be handed over. All bygones now.
Part of my extended family had lived in North Africa, Algeria included, so this is a matter I'm rather familiar with.
Finally, with regard to African cannibalism, you've provided some vague evidence that in times of famine people have eaten each other. Starving people will do that. It still doesn't make it a distinctly African cultural practice and your sort of arguing that it does is kinda... curious.
I told you I don't care the least about whether there are cultural aspects to the occurences of cannibalism or not, it's an atrocity which has to be stopped, period.
Other than that I have no sensibilty whatsoever to local cultures when it comes to uprooting atrocious practices, which need to be dealt in the way the British Raj dealt with the practice of suttee, just in case you'd ask.
Especially in the light of your suggestion that famines in Africa are more to do with a sort of in-built African inability for self-government.
How easily suggestible you are to infer things from what isn't really there.
That those African countries couldn't overcome the economic difficulties which arose from the mid-1970s crisis, with the same measure of success as some East Asian countries did, doesn't have to do with any ?sort of in-built African inability for self-government? (sic) as you put it.
They had simply made some erroneous policy choices, which is only human.
You name the airport foyer and the weapon.
I'm having Jonathan.
Where I come from we don't engage in futile violent sports to console wounded honour, this is a Goyim Nakhes, or ?furriners' leisure?. So I shall decline the invitation.
I'd advise you not to mistake it as an expression of fear or lack of resolve, as such approach from you which might lead you to consequences I would live to regret.
I was trying to say that we're being silly; I was trying to back out of a foolish argument about nothing by making a joke.
I don't really want to fight you with a sword or a gun.
If you weren't joking too - as I hope you were - you now look like a prize twat.