On my Birthday, Aug 29, it will be 33 years since I got my Apple ][ 16 KB RAM and game paddles.
AIR, that cost my wife $1,600 in 1978 dollars (I think about $5,000, today).
Aside: is it is it me -- or is everyone using Lion having trouble typing?
Awesome. I was working 16 hours a day 7 days a week, selling, repairing and installing Apple ][s about the time you got yours, my first business after leaving teaching to start my Apple Dealership in Newcastle, England .. 1978-79. I hope you upgraded to a 48k and a language card
Yes Lion and the iPad have this habit of correcting my typos from semi understandable into totally different wombats.
You should know that the China labor and US Jobs issues have been discussed at great length on AI forums... with no resolution.
Just a couple of points to consider:
1) without those over-worked, under-paid jobs at Foxconn -- many of those same people would be working in the fields or rice paddies -- for a back-breaking 16 hours per day. Others would be in steel mills, mines, refineries etc. with unhealthy working environments. Still others would have no jobs at all.
2) if state and federal regulations would allow Apple (and others) to manufacture in the US the cost of doing so would, likely, be prohibitive.
3) To do so, Apple would need to drastically raise their prices and reduce their profits. And they still wouldn't be competitive with those who take advantage of the Chinese system you decry.
4) By leaving markets or not being able to enter new markets, Apple would likely need to significantly reduce their physical plant and workforce around the world -- including the US. Why would Apple need build that new campus if there were no need for the 13,000 employees it will house. Loss of those construction jobs and the fanout of services (restaurants, janitors, teachers, theaters, bowling alleys, dry cleaners...) would be a significant job loss in addition to the 13,000 jobs lost at Apple.
So, you see these are not simple problems with simple solutions.
They are not problems that Apple created, nor can Apple be expected to rectify them.
Is it ok for like, every major industry and its players, except for Apple?
I hope you were joking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lmac12
So really in the end how much is enough? If Apple paid fair wages to American assembly workers what would their coffers hold? 30-40 billion? Isn't that enough?
Apple can (but if they're smart they won't) pay "fair" wages to American workers. Apple and a lot of others would rather not, largely because American industry can barely afford to pay American workers. Unions, for example, are way, way out of hand in the Western world. Start with some sorely needed reforms in that area and maybe you can have some of your American workers back.
Again, if you have a problem with Chinese labour, then there's an abacus and a paper and pencil with your name on it. Hey, if that's cool with you then you're a better man than I.
I'll gladly take your tech products off your hands. Especially Apple gear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lmac12
I celebrate Apple's success like the rest of you. I remember when it seemed like it was going to end. I too was sad. But it was deserved, man that Performa 6300 I struggled with sure was a dog....Steve J did save the co. But this latest incarnation of Apple policy is troubling to me. It doesn't jibe with the Apple I knew and loved. Greed never seemed synonymous with them, now it does.
The Apple you knew and loved responded to the American economy and its union-driven base that you knew and loved. Apple is not to blame for jobs going overseas. Biz is biz.
Greed? No more than the rest. But turning maximum profit? Absolutely. There's no other reason to be in business.
I registered to chime in. Long time reader and Mac owner since '85. These record/ unprecedented profits are largely on the backs of over worked, grossly underpaid, Chinese people working at Foxconn, that tl;dr blah blah blah does.
<chagrin>
first, I would like to apologize for my last post. I was, ahem, not myself and had a very, very bad day (and heaping lashings of very, very good 20 year scotch). Thank you mods for ignoring my post.
</chagrin>
I would ask anyone to point out a PC manufacturer who employs non-overworked, non-Chinese (Asian) assembly line workers. Shiny happy workers make what computers, where? Well, possibly there are workers so well paid and so happy that they s**t rainbow coloured nyan cats, but they are only assembling PC's or products made with components made by oppressed workers.
tl;dr: owning a PC supports oppression. Get over it, or go analog.
I, for one, knew this day would come. Apple's focus on the common end-user has made their current success inevitable. I still boggle that other PC and wireless manufacturers (the difference between the two is thinning) still don't understand that a simple UI is king...
I still boggle that other PC and wireless manufacturers (the difference between the two is thinning) still don't understand that a simple UI is king...
With 3 times the installed base of iOS devices I'd say Android has found a way to deal with that requirement...
With 3 times the installed base of iOS devices I'd say Android has found a way to deal with that requirement...
If I understand what you are saying...for I can only presume you are suggesting that "simple" is not King in your observations (which appears to be the case. I, well, I believe the Android environment to be..hampered..by unnecessarily antiquated elaborations)..then I would reply that slow and steady wins the race, and market share. The evidence for this is..overwhelming..despite install base of Android (a name which must surely enthrall Bill Gates devotees). Whatevs to Android. It makes a great riposte to Apple's conception of mediation. However, at the end of the day there are those who feel like working hard at something gets them somewhere, and there are those of us who believe that hardly working works best.
There are 800 million Android devices in existence? Link?
the first link I found suggests otherwise. In fact, it states there are 2x the # of iOS devices than Android devices. However, I am open to evidence against that.
With 3 times the installed base of iOS devices I'd say Android has found a way to deal with that requirement...
Google took the universal licensing position early and flooded the market before anyone else could. There is a great disparity in quality from box-maker to box-maker, and also in price.
That'll do it, no matter how much of a mess the platform is.
I registered to chime in. Long time reader and Mac owner since '85. These record/ unprecedented profits are largely on the backs of over worked, grossly underpaid, Chinese people working at Foxconn, that commit suicide when the pressure of their work conditions gets too intense. And now these same people will be replaced by machines to assemble our beloved phones and pads because of the rising cost of workers!!! So really in the end how much is enough? If Apple paid fair wages to American assembly workers what would their coffers hold? 30-40 billion? Isn't that enough?
I celebrate Apple's success like the rest of you. I remember when it seemed like it was going to end. I too was sad. But it was deserved, man that Performa 6300 I struggled with sure was a dog....Steve J did save the co. But this latest incarnation of Apple policy is troubling to me. It doesn't jibe with the Apple I knew and loved. Greed never seemed synonymous with them, now it does.
Yes, those are all valid concerns. But you must take note of, from a global perspective, the amount of economic stimulation Apple has been responsible for. I know in the US it is a bit tough because jobs always seem to be "going elsewhere" but remember those overseas jobs create wealth for people that also buy US products and services... such as video games, music, movies, online software and services, and massive amounts of made-in-China products whose revenue is recognised in the US (ie. the money goes back into the US and is taxed in the US)
Yes, globally there are major issues with piracy but there is still a lot of purchasing of original software, services and media under pressure from coalitions led, for example, by Microsoft. Asia spends a ton of money on Microsoft, Oracle and other US consumer and enterprise software... As well as on US-recognised-revenue brands such as Dell, HP, AMD, Intel and of course Apple.
The problem is that the money coming back into the US seems to be percolating at the top levels and not trickling down as the elite want you to believe.
The other challenge is that due to the advancement and adaptation of the economy of the US the jobs and skills required in the US are increasingly more high-end. Apple, Google and Intel have grown rapidly but they need more engineers, project managers, accountants, lawyers and software developers, not more machinists, bakers, cleaners, receptionists, tradesmen, etc. The problem as I personally faced myself is that high-skill jobs are difficult to train for, reskill, learn, break into, and maintain in an increasingly stressful socioeconomic environment.
All points well taken...(some more than others, yeesh tough room) I guess my real point is I remember where it all came from, one of the reasons I loved Apple. Aside from it being a superior product:
And knows nothing because I never joined the AI forums. But I'll remember fondly loading up the MacPaint program from a floppy and my PC loving brother making fun of my "groovy" California computer. And I was lovin it.
Now Apple has become what it used to scorn....in spades.
If Apples worth so much is there actually many people left that can affored to buy it? After all the value of something is only the price that you can sell it for. Also if Apple is now valued higher than anything else does it still make a good investment when your only return is it's value of it increasing.
And on that news, Apple stock sheds another 10 points…! :P
I know, I know, there's a global market/economic collapse underway and everyone's worried Apple will also suffer from the resulting lower demand… so there's a bit of a sell-off.
I think it's more of a market-adjustment, and it's not all as dire as predicted, but that's just me…
And who but Apple can shine even in times of economic hardship? They've been bucking all the trends consistently for years now.
You know, back in the Great Depression, people turned to entertainments to weather the emotional side of that event. It was a huge growth period for movie and music industries still in their infancy… I kind of see Apple positioned similarly.
Somehow, even a bad economy won't be that bad for them, I think… interesting times...
These record/ unprecedented profits are largely on the backs of over worked, grossly underpaid, Chinese people working at Foxconn, that commit suicide when the pressure of their work conditions gets too intense. And now these same people will be replaced by machines to assemble our beloved phones and pads because of the rising cost of workers!!
Every job that does not require actual thinking will eventually be replaced my machines. And that is a good thing in my opinion because who, as a complicated unique human being, wants to spend their life doing mind-numbing repetitious tasks?
It has always been the case that more jobs are lost to technology than to low cost labor overseas, so don't blame the Chinese. They are just decent people trying to drag themselves out of poverty, even if we must keep a wary eye on their government.
Apple has done wonderful things for the tech industry and pulled it out of stagnation.
are these stories really necessary anymore? i think we get the point, apple is a very successful company.
Worded differently (and more pertinently): this only shows how badly the banks are doing (after having erected luxurious buildings and while still paying excessive bonuses -- bonuses, if based on performance should be NEGATIVE now, instead of hugely positive).
Every job that does not require actual thinking will eventually be replaced my machines. And that is a good thing in my opinion because who, as a complicated unique human being, wants to spend their life doing mind-numbing repetitious tasks?
Now Apple has become what it used to scorn....in spades.
Two simple suggestions, if you live in a (relatively) free country: (i) Buy something else. (ii) Go somewhere else.
If you don't, my heart bleeds, but tough luck. (But please know that I am very impressed that you've been a Mac user since 1985, then. Famazing.)
Some very well-informed people here have tried to push your thinking by giving you serious feedback and links, but if you're unwilling or unable to understand, it's your problem.
Comments
On my Birthday, Aug 29, it will be 33 years since I got my Apple ][ 16 KB RAM and game paddles.
AIR, that cost my wife $1,600 in 1978 dollars (I think about $5,000, today).
Aside: is it is it me -- or is everyone using Lion having trouble typing?
Awesome. I was working 16 hours a day 7 days a week, selling, repairing and installing Apple ][s about the time you got yours, my first business after leaving teaching to start my Apple Dealership in Newcastle, England .. 1978-79. I hope you upgraded to a 48k and a language card
Yes Lion and the iPad have this habit of correcting my typos from semi understandable into totally different wombats.
Welcome.
You should know that the China labor and US Jobs issues have been discussed at great length on AI forums... with no resolution.
Just a couple of points to consider:
1) without those over-worked, under-paid jobs at Foxconn -- many of those same people would be working in the fields or rice paddies -- for a back-breaking 16 hours per day. Others would be in steel mills, mines, refineries etc. with unhealthy working environments. Still others would have no jobs at all.
2) if state and federal regulations would allow Apple (and others) to manufacture in the US the cost of doing so would, likely, be prohibitive.
3) To do so, Apple would need to drastically raise their prices and reduce their profits. And they still wouldn't be competitive with those who take advantage of the Chinese system you decry.
4) By leaving markets or not being able to enter new markets, Apple would likely need to significantly reduce their physical plant and workforce around the world -- including the US. Why would Apple need build that new campus if there were no need for the 13,000 employees it will house. Loss of those construction jobs and the fanout of services (restaurants, janitors, teachers, theaters, bowling alleys, dry cleaners...) would be a significant job loss in addition to the 13,000 jobs lost at Apple.
So, you see these are not simple problems with simple solutions.
They are not problems that Apple created, nor can Apple be expected to rectify them.
Excellent points.
A Mac owner since 85 and registered today? Gimme a break... Where do all these noobs come from anyway?
Good point!
p.s. I hope your are Garamond with an 80% reduction in width and only use Helvetica Bold for headings
I registered to chime in. Long time reader and Mac owner since '85.
I've only been Mac owner since '94. Went over to Windows and Linux for bit from 2002-2006.
These record/ unprecedented profits are largely on the backs of over worked, grossly underpaid, Chinese people working at Foxconn,
So?
http://www.fastcompany.com/1617116/m...-kernaghan-kye
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...-in-China.html
http://www.chinalaborwatch.org/news/new-285.html
Don't read this one - you won't like it:
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/bizchin...t_10003623.htm
Apple, MS, Dell, everyone. Use a computer and chances are, BOOM. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8L39UwOS-Y) Chinese labour.
The good news is that you can still buy an abacus if it makes you feel better.
If you do, can I have your stuff?
that commit suicide when the pressure of their work conditions gets too intense.
See above. Apple isn't Foxconn's only customer. Don't tell me you didn't already know this.
And now these same people will be replaced by machines to assemble our beloved phones and pads because of the rising cost of workers!!!
It happens.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Revolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_robot
Is it ok for like, every major industry and its players, except for Apple?
I hope you were joking.
So really in the end how much is enough? If Apple paid fair wages to American assembly workers what would their coffers hold? 30-40 billion? Isn't that enough?
Apple can (but if they're smart they won't) pay "fair" wages to American workers. Apple and a lot of others would rather not, largely because American industry can barely afford to pay American workers. Unions, for example, are way, way out of hand in the Western world. Start with some sorely needed reforms in that area and maybe you can have some of your American workers back.
Again, if you have a problem with Chinese labour, then there's an abacus and a paper and pencil with your name on it. Hey, if that's cool with you then you're a better man than I.
I'll gladly take your tech products off your hands. Especially Apple gear.
I celebrate Apple's success like the rest of you. I remember when it seemed like it was going to end. I too was sad. But it was deserved, man that Performa 6300 I struggled with sure was a dog....Steve J did save the co. But this latest incarnation of Apple policy is troubling to me. It doesn't jibe with the Apple I knew and loved. Greed never seemed synonymous with them, now it does.
The Apple you knew and loved responded to the American economy and its union-driven base that you knew and loved. Apple is not to blame for jobs going overseas. Biz is biz.
Greed? No more than the rest. But turning maximum profit? Absolutely. There's no other reason to be in business.
Except Apple does it by making great products.
I registered to chime in. Long time reader and Mac owner since '85. These record/ unprecedented profits are largely on the backs of over worked, grossly underpaid, Chinese people working at Foxconn, that tl;dr blah blah blah does.
<chagrin>
first, I would like to apologize for my last post. I was, ahem, not myself and had a very, very bad day (and heaping lashings of very, very good 20 year scotch). Thank you mods for ignoring my post.
</chagrin>
I would ask anyone to point out a PC manufacturer who employs non-overworked, non-Chinese (Asian) assembly line workers. Shiny happy workers make what computers, where? Well, possibly there are workers so well paid and so happy that they s**t rainbow coloured nyan cats, but they are only assembling PC's or products made with components made by oppressed workers.
tl;dr: owning a PC supports oppression. Get over it, or go analog.
I, for one, knew this day would come. Apple's focus on the common end-user has made their current success inevitable. I still boggle that other PC and wireless manufacturers (the difference between the two is thinning) still don't understand that a simple UI is king...
I still boggle that other PC and wireless manufacturers (the difference between the two is thinning) still don't understand that a simple UI is king...
With 3 times the installed base of iOS devices I'd say Android has found a way to deal with that requirement...
With 3 times the installed base of iOS devices I'd say Android has found a way to deal with that requirement...
If I understand what you are saying...for I can only presume you are suggesting that "simple" is not King in your observations (which appears to be the case. I, well, I believe the Android environment to be..hampered..by unnecessarily antiquated elaborations)..then I would reply that slow and steady wins the race, and market share. The evidence for this is..overwhelming..despite install base of Android (a name which must surely enthrall Bill Gates devotees). Whatevs to Android. It makes a great riposte to Apple's conception of mediation. However, at the end of the day there are those who feel like working hard at something gets them somewhere, and there are those of us who believe that hardly working works best.
With 3 times the installed base of iOS devices I'd say Android has found a way to deal with that requirement...
There are 800 million Android devices in existence? Link?
There are 800 million Android devices in existence? Link?
the first link I found suggests otherwise. In fact, it states there are 2x the # of iOS devices than Android devices. However, I am open to evidence against that.
edit: haters gonna' hate
With 3 times the installed base of iOS devices I'd say Android has found a way to deal with that requirement...
Google took the universal licensing position early and flooded the market before anyone else could. There is a great disparity in quality from box-maker to box-maker, and also in price.
That'll do it, no matter how much of a mess the platform is.
I registered to chime in. Long time reader and Mac owner since '85. These record/ unprecedented profits are largely on the backs of over worked, grossly underpaid, Chinese people working at Foxconn, that commit suicide when the pressure of their work conditions gets too intense. And now these same people will be replaced by machines to assemble our beloved phones and pads because of the rising cost of workers!!! So really in the end how much is enough? If Apple paid fair wages to American assembly workers what would their coffers hold? 30-40 billion? Isn't that enough?
I celebrate Apple's success like the rest of you. I remember when it seemed like it was going to end. I too was sad. But it was deserved, man that Performa 6300 I struggled with sure was a dog....Steve J did save the co. But this latest incarnation of Apple policy is troubling to me. It doesn't jibe with the Apple I knew and loved. Greed never seemed synonymous with them, now it does.
Yes, those are all valid concerns. But you must take note of, from a global perspective, the amount of economic stimulation Apple has been responsible for. I know in the US it is a bit tough because jobs always seem to be "going elsewhere" but remember those overseas jobs create wealth for people that also buy US products and services... such as video games, music, movies, online software and services, and massive amounts of made-in-China products whose revenue is recognised in the US (ie. the money goes back into the US and is taxed in the US)
Yes, globally there are major issues with piracy but there is still a lot of purchasing of original software, services and media under pressure from coalitions led, for example, by Microsoft. Asia spends a ton of money on Microsoft, Oracle and other US consumer and enterprise software... As well as on US-recognised-revenue brands such as Dell, HP, AMD, Intel and of course Apple.
The problem is that the money coming back into the US seems to be percolating at the top levels and not trickling down as the elite want you to believe.
The other challenge is that due to the advancement and adaptation of the economy of the US the jobs and skills required in the US are increasingly more high-end. Apple, Google and Intel have grown rapidly but they need more engineers, project managers, accountants, lawyers and software developers, not more machinists, bakers, cleaners, receptionists, tradesmen, etc. The problem as I personally faced myself is that high-skill jobs are difficult to train for, reskill, learn, break into, and maintain in an increasingly stressful socioeconomic environment.
1984 Apple's Macintosh Commercial:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYecfV3ubP8
With that said I love my iPhone, Mac Pro.Macbook.
But Apple cash on hand, $76 billion. US Treasury: $74 billion ...
Competitive? \t
Still a superior product.but one that's lost it's soul. It matters to me.
I know I know I'm a stupid noob that's accused of never owning one of these:
http://oldcomputers.net/macintosh.html
And knows nothing because I never joined the AI forums. But I'll remember fondly loading up the MacPaint program from a floppy and my PC loving brother making fun of my "groovy" California computer. And I was lovin it.
Now Apple has become what it used to scorn....in spades.
I know, I know, there's a global market/economic collapse underway and everyone's worried Apple will also suffer from the resulting lower demand… so there's a bit of a sell-off.
I think it's more of a market-adjustment, and it's not all as dire as predicted, but that's just me…
And who but Apple can shine even in times of economic hardship? They've been bucking all the trends consistently for years now.
You know, back in the Great Depression, people turned to entertainments to weather the emotional side of that event. It was a huge growth period for movie and music industries still in their infancy… I kind of see Apple positioned similarly.
Somehow, even a bad economy won't be that bad for them, I think… interesting times...
These record/ unprecedented profits are largely on the backs of over worked, grossly underpaid, Chinese people working at Foxconn, that commit suicide when the pressure of their work conditions gets too intense. And now these same people will be replaced by machines to assemble our beloved phones and pads because of the rising cost of workers!!
Every job that does not require actual thinking will eventually be replaced my machines. And that is a good thing in my opinion because who, as a complicated unique human being, wants to spend their life doing mind-numbing repetitious tasks?
It has always been the case that more jobs are lost to technology than to low cost labor overseas, so don't blame the Chinese. They are just decent people trying to drag themselves out of poverty, even if we must keep a wary eye on their government.
Apple has done wonderful things for the tech industry and pulled it out of stagnation.
are these stories really necessary anymore? i think we get the point, apple is a very successful company.
Worded differently (and more pertinently): this only shows how badly the banks are doing (after having erected luxurious buildings and while still paying excessive bonuses -- bonuses, if based on performance should be NEGATIVE now, instead of hugely positive).
Every job that does not require actual thinking will eventually be replaced my machines. And that is a good thing in my opinion because who, as a complicated unique human being, wants to spend their life doing mind-numbing repetitious tasks?
Hear, hear!
Now Apple has become what it used to scorn....in spades.
Two simple suggestions, if you live in a (relatively) free country: (i) Buy something else. (ii) Go somewhere else.
If you don't, my heart bleeds, but tough luck. (But please know that I am very impressed that you've been a Mac user since 1985, then. Famazing.)
Some very well-informed people here have tried to push your thinking by giving you serious feedback and links, but if you're unwilling or unable to understand, it's your problem.