Thank you for the clarification. No, there's no Amtrak for the flight I'm taking in a few week's time. No trains that go over the sea yet... though I have imagined a levitating type of sea-crossing intercontinental green-energy super-high-speed railway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kibitzer
If you're worried about two iPads failing at the same time, you're getting down to a probability so low that it would be a statistical fluke. Even so, as Suddenly Newton points out, there's an incredible amount of safety redundancy in commercial aviation.
And if you're still not reassured, then perhaps you need to give up air travel for Amtrak. Of course, the odds of a train derailing while you're aboard are likely much greater than two iPads failing simultaneously.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton
You will have to rely on something called PILOTING SKILLS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot
If you're sitting in the back?... You'll never even notice it.
The charts in the iPad (or on paper) are required to be there... They aren't really necessary to fly or navigate or land. While they do make some things easier, it can all be done without them.
(And no... They don't have to be turned off for takeoff and landing. )
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagman
Everyone seems to forget you have to have redundant panel-mounted avionics, both of which must work, in order to even file a commercial IFR flight plan and takeoff. You use THESE for navigation and communication, not the ipad. The ipad just provides situational awareness. Approach plates are built into your panel avionics, so losing your ipads would not have any effect on these primary systems.
Everyone seems to forget you have to have redundant panel-mounted avionics, both of which must work, in order to even file a commercial IFR flight plan and takeoff. You use THESE for navigation and communication, not the ipad. The ipad just provides situational awareness. Approach plates are built into your panel avionics, so losing your ipads would not have any effect on these primary systems.
Could you explain "situational awareness" and "flight charts"? That may help us understand what the iPads are really helping out with.
Remember, most of us are just the cattle in the big ol' flying cattle-liner.
Yes a toy indeed! It's baffling to me how many people can't "see" beyond what they know, and what they know becomes their limit. Even more baffling is their passion in defending that limit by saying things such as "the iPad is just a toy to play videos and angry birds"
I just flew back to the states using Alitalia and I saw two pilots in the cockpit using them too. I think they had them on their own or maybe a "pilot" program since I haven't heard about Alitalia deploying them
Thank you for the clarification. No, there's no Amtrak for the flight I'm taking in a few week's time. No trains that go over the sea yet... though I have imagined a levitating type of sea-crossing intercontinental green-energy super-high-speed railway.
You won't be able to use them as approach plates any time soon.
We will... we'll just have to have a paper copy available to us as well... once they get class II approval, we'll supposedly be able to ditch the last set of paper charts in the cockpit as well.
nvidia2008 : I'll try....
Situational awareness is just knowing where the airplane is (we can't always see the ground, or even the horizon... and the thing is moving across the ground at 500 mph +)... that's what most of the instruments on the "dashboard" of the plane are for. We also have paper maps and charts ... both for large areas, and a single-page chart for each final approach to each runway at each airport... that's where precision becomes important (as we get very close to the ground and various obstacles attached to it)... when visibility is good, these charts aren't necessary, but when landing in heavy rain or fog... they contain the information and radio "landmarks" we need to navigate via the instrumentation alone.
All of that charted information is now available on the iPad instead of on paper ... each method (iPad vs Paper) has it's advantages, but the iPad advantages weigh heavily in its favor.
Right now, even with the iPad approved for use in the cockpit, the FAA (government) still will require us to carry a complete set of paper charts in the cockpit as a back-up ... once the iPad is proven for this use, that requirement should go away.
The iPad's GPS/Accelerometer, etc is not used for navigation ... it's only a method of displaying charts and maps and manuals ... a 2 pound tablet that replaces 40 pounds of paper and is much easier to keep up-to-date. (some of those paper charts are revised every two weeks.)
There is nothing the iPad is doing that is necessary to the safe conduct of the flight. Even if they both fail and all the paper blows out the window, getting the airplane safely on the ground is no greater feat than every other time we do it.
Just sit back and realize that the pilots intend to go home to their own families at the end of every trip... they're not going to accept or desire anything that would make that outcome less likely. Go back to your Coke and peanuts and let the pilots worry about flying the plane!
Ok, it saves trees.....and these tablets get manufactured magically? So there's absolutely no energy use in their construction? No raw materials being mined in some craphole overseas?
Since Science Fiction is now hip in lawsuits, I'm publishing my "prior art" here. I'll patent troll later when it is all invented. I woke up one morning and wrote this down...
Dreamscape Prediction Year 2100
Trains that speed up so as to match main intercity high speeds including those over the sea maglev. Rolling transfer system platforms (moving platforms). These subtrains transfer to sub urban areas.. Forest etc reserves become parks. Ski etc increasingly simulated. The real wilderness is big ocean, sea level rise reducing islands, and deserts. Huge glass floating pontoon cities/ resorts for the last remaining wilderness. Spaceports. 5000 mile intercity, tourism, commercial probes and experimental moon/ mars research: Baikonur, Shanghai, Singapore, Queensland equatorial, Turkey, Mexico, Texas, Florida. 5000 mile intercity is X-plane concept. No distinct first contact but definitive "Signal" of 'prophetic' intelligence out there. Mars... Mineral resources found? Drives experimental 1-2 year rotating stay human colonies. Internet mirror sent for local web browsing. Email not that bad, streaming?
We will... we'll just have to have a paper copy available to us as well... once they get class II approval, we'll supposedly be able to ditch the last set of paper charts in the cockpit as well.
Class 2 certification is not going to come by easily and the costs may outweigh the benefits. There are many issues that have to be overcome before the iPad can be used for approaches. Right now they're no where near being solved.
Mounting, power, viewing angles are all problems that have to be solved and two of those that I mentioned will require and STC. Once again, money.
I'm as excited as the next pilot to have this but I don't see it moving off Class I for a while.
Class 2 certification is not going to come by easily and the costs may outweigh the benefits. There are many issues that have to be overcome before the iPad can be used for approaches. Right now they're no where near being solved.
Mounting, power, viewing angles are all problems that have to be solved and two of those that I mentioned will require and STC. Once again, money.
I'm as excited as the next pilot to have this but I don't see it moving off Class I for a while.
Either way... we are still allowed to use it for approach plates... I really don't care if they want to keep a bag of backup paper charts behind my seat for all eternity... as long as I don't have to actually open it and use them!
Now... they haven't actually handed any of these out yet, so I'll be the first to admit that how they will be allowed to be used is subject to much change from what they're telling us...
What would worry me is to be in a plane where the pilot is digging through a bag trying to find something that is out of date, missing, damaged, or just harder to use than an iPad.
this is what the airlines are thinking about. In an emergency, brain farts happen to the best of us. We know what we are looking for but forget where to find it. Ipad apps can be built with search functions making it a lot easier to look up.
And they are easier to update with up to the hour info. Heck you could have the pilot in the cockpit about to taxi for takeoff when an update comes in and it can be sent OTA to the pilot's ipad in a matter of minutes with no waiting for someone to print it, run it to the gate, the pilot to find the old version and pull it out, put in the new one etc.
Next step will be the flight attendants who also have several pounds of manuals. Even perhaps ipod touches for taking drink orders. Who knows, perhaps they will create an app that could tell you passenger provided information like the guy in seat 14C is a diabetic and the girl in 25A is allergic to nuts. Or remind you that the couple in Row 9 have a stroller that should be waiting at the gate at landing and don't forget the wheelchair for the nice old lady in Row 3.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rot'nApple
iPad with a 10 hour battery on an 11 hour flight...
That's only a problem if there is not a way to recharge the ipad and you can bet that was the first thing the airlines took care of
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar
United Airlines is a corporation and an enterprise. Apple is a consumer products company. Apple should not sell to enterprise customers. Apple should only sell to small businesses with less than 5 employees.
Just because a company's primary design focus is consumers and the occasional prosumer doesn't equal that they should be banned from selling to anyone that can use their products. If anything such a ban is a horrible move. It would create an environment where single utility devices would be put into play and given the captive audience, the prices would be insane (and passed on via higher ticket prices etc).
This is what happened with assistive communication devices when the insurance companies decided they wouldn't cover a penny of the cost if the device could be used for anything else. So no laptops, no ipads etc. Companies started making multi thousand dollar devices and the patients had to use them and get a partial to full insurance coverage or use a computer at their own cost which included very costly software etc.
Either way... we are still allowed to use it for approach plates... I really don't care if they want to keep a bag of backup paper charts behind my seat for all eternity... as long as I don't have to actually open it and use them!
Now... they haven't actually handed any of these out yet, so I'll be the first to admit that how they will be allowed to be used is subject to much change from what they're telling us...
Legally you won't. Class 1 EFB must be stowed for ops below 10000. You can reference manuals above 10 or out of sterile. You won't be able to shoot approaches off the iPads.
Dick, hi no i use my old laminated card for preflights, except for weight and balance app. I use Foreflight on the ground for flight planning and weather briefing. Seems the ipad only gets in the way for preflight stuff. Only use logbooks for maint stuff. Foreflight is also looking into ADS-B traffic displays but all this stuff, and weather nexrad would require two more inflight communications systems different from typical internet connectivity, so it seems far off for now. The great thing about all these apps is the ability to work independantly from internet connectivity.
Foreflight seems to be by far the most popular product among the private pilots I know, but our needs are quite different than ATPs flying for the corps. It makes VFR flight planning a cinch, and the innovation of moving-map sectionals is worth the price of admission all by itself (assuming your iPad is GPS equipped). I'm going to really miss my plotter and E6B. Not! Oh and my chart-folding-while-flying skills will probably wither away right along with my knowledge of flying from/to course through VORs. What is the world coming to?
Legally you won't. Class 1 EFB must be stowed for ops below 10000. You can reference manuals above 10 or out of sterile. You won't be able to shoot approaches off the iPads.
see... that's contrary to what we're being told by management ... but then, it certainly wouldn't be the first time management lied to me.
And the FAA grants waivers all the time for us to do stuff that would otherwise be contrary to FAR's.
United Airlines is a corporation and an enterprise. Apple is a consumer products company. Apple should not sell to enterprise customers. Apple should only sell to small businesses with less than 5 employees.
This is not the case for Apple (just a consumer products company). You see them making inroads into the corporate landscape and in enterprise engineering with devices such as the iPad and the iPhone by the day. Given that I happen to work for United (formerly Continental) and am very close to this development, I can certainly attest to Apple's prowess in making this most certainly an enterprise device.
The challenge that Apple has currently is how they plan to manage these devices at an enterprise engineering level, as there are several Apps that are attempting to beat Apple to the punch in regards to their own devices (managing the configuration, apps users can download, sites they can access, documents that can be pushed to them, etc. I can almost bet Apple has some sort of systems management software in the works for just this purpose. If they don't, it would be a huge missed opportunity. Time will tell.
The chances for getting a waiver for something that needs an STC is zero. These things need to be hooked into the aircraft's power and mounted.
I'm sure the goal is Class 2, but right now no airline is authorized.
Then again, who cares if it's Class 2 approved or not (from a pilots perspective, anyway)... let them keep a case of paper charts behind my seat (so that a class 2/3 device is not needed) ... I'll never open them... I'll just use my worthless "Class 1" iPad when I need to look at a chart.
The day I quit lugging around a 40 pound bag of paper (circa 1950's technology) can't come soon enough!
To date, United still has not even ORDERED the iPads, much less deployed them.
I'm thinking this was maybe a PR move to try to convince the public that the airline uses the latest technology. In practice, they seem to have no intention of doing so.
Comments
If you're worried about two iPads failing at the same time, you're getting down to a probability so low that it would be a statistical fluke. Even so, as Suddenly Newton points out, there's an incredible amount of safety redundancy in commercial aviation.
And if you're still not reassured, then perhaps you need to give up air travel for Amtrak. Of course, the odds of a train derailing while you're aboard are likely much greater than two iPads failing simultaneously.
You will have to rely on something called PILOTING SKILLS.
If you're sitting in the back?... You'll never even notice it.
The charts in the iPad (or on paper) are required to be there... They aren't really necessary to fly or navigate or land. While they do make some things easier, it can all be done without them.
(And no... They don't have to be turned off for takeoff and landing.
Everyone seems to forget you have to have redundant panel-mounted avionics, both of which must work, in order to even file a commercial IFR flight plan and takeoff. You use THESE for navigation and communication, not the ipad. The ipad just provides situational awareness. Approach plates are built into your panel avionics, so losing your ipads would not have any effect on these primary systems.
Everyone seems to forget you have to have redundant panel-mounted avionics, both of which must work, in order to even file a commercial IFR flight plan and takeoff. You use THESE for navigation and communication, not the ipad. The ipad just provides situational awareness. Approach plates are built into your panel avionics, so losing your ipads would not have any effect on these primary systems.
Could you explain "situational awareness" and "flight charts"? That may help us understand what the iPads are really helping out with.
Remember, most of us are just the cattle in the big ol' flying cattle-liner.
I just flew back to the states using Alitalia and I saw two pilots in the cockpit using them too. I think they had them on their own or maybe a "pilot" program
Thank you for the clarification.
Patent it. Quick.
You won't be able to use them as approach plates any time soon.
We will... we'll just have to have a paper copy available to us as well... once they get class II approval, we'll supposedly be able to ditch the last set of paper charts in the cockpit as well.
nvidia2008 : I'll try....
Situational awareness is just knowing where the airplane is (we can't always see the ground, or even the horizon... and the thing is moving across the ground at 500 mph +)... that's what most of the instruments on the "dashboard" of the plane are for. We also have paper maps and charts ... both for large areas, and a single-page chart for each final approach to each runway at each airport... that's where precision becomes important (as we get very close to the ground and various obstacles attached to it)... when visibility is good, these charts aren't necessary, but when landing in heavy rain or fog... they contain the information and radio "landmarks" we need to navigate via the instrumentation alone.
All of that charted information is now available on the iPad instead of on paper ... each method (iPad vs Paper) has it's advantages, but the iPad advantages weigh heavily in its favor.
Right now, even with the iPad approved for use in the cockpit, the FAA (government) still will require us to carry a complete set of paper charts in the cockpit as a back-up ... once the iPad is proven for this use, that requirement should go away.
The iPad's GPS/Accelerometer, etc is not used for navigation ... it's only a method of displaying charts and maps and manuals ... a 2 pound tablet that replaces 40 pounds of paper and is much easier to keep up-to-date. (some of those paper charts are revised every two weeks.)
There is nothing the iPad is doing that is necessary to the safe conduct of the flight. Even if they both fail and all the paper blows out the window, getting the airplane safely on the ground is no greater feat than every other time we do it.
Just sit back and realize that the pilots intend to go home to their own families at the end of every trip... they're not going to accept or desire anything that would make that outcome less likely. Go back to your Coke and peanuts and let the pilots worry about flying the plane!
God I hate enviroweenies....
nvidia2008 : I'll try..................
Patent it. Quick.
Dreamscape Prediction Year 2100
Trains that speed up so as to match main intercity high speeds including those over the sea maglev. Rolling transfer system platforms (moving platforms). These subtrains transfer to sub urban areas.. Forest etc reserves become parks. Ski etc increasingly simulated. The real wilderness is big ocean, sea level rise reducing islands, and deserts. Huge glass floating pontoon cities/ resorts for the last remaining wilderness. Spaceports. 5000 mile intercity, tourism, commercial probes and experimental moon/ mars research: Baikonur, Shanghai, Singapore, Queensland equatorial, Turkey, Mexico, Texas, Florida. 5000 mile intercity is X-plane concept. No distinct first contact but definitive "Signal" of 'prophetic' intelligence out there. Mars... Mineral resources found? Drives experimental 1-2 year rotating stay human colonies. Internet mirror sent for local web browsing. Email not that bad, streaming?
.................................
.................................
We will... we'll just have to have a paper copy available to us as well... once they get class II approval, we'll supposedly be able to ditch the last set of paper charts in the cockpit as well.
Class 2 certification is not going to come by easily and the costs may outweigh the benefits. There are many issues that have to be overcome before the iPad can be used for approaches. Right now they're no where near being solved.
Mounting, power, viewing angles are all problems that have to be solved and two of those that I mentioned will require and STC. Once again, money.
I'm as excited as the next pilot to have this but I don't see it moving off Class I for a while.
Class 2 certification is not going to come by easily and the costs may outweigh the benefits. There are many issues that have to be overcome before the iPad can be used for approaches. Right now they're no where near being solved.
Mounting, power, viewing angles are all problems that have to be solved and two of those that I mentioned will require and STC. Once again, money.
I'm as excited as the next pilot to have this but I don't see it moving off Class I for a while.
Either way... we are still allowed to use it for approach plates... I really don't care if they want to keep a bag of backup paper charts behind my seat for all eternity... as long as I don't have to actually open it and use them!
Now... they haven't actually handed any of these out yet, so I'll be the first to admit that how they will be allowed to be used is subject to much change from what they're telling us...
As a pilot, and as an iPad owner, no; not at all.
What would worry me is to be in a plane where the pilot is digging through a bag trying to find something that is out of date, missing, damaged, or just harder to use than an iPad.
this is what the airlines are thinking about. In an emergency, brain farts happen to the best of us. We know what we are looking for but forget where to find it. Ipad apps can be built with search functions making it a lot easier to look up.
And they are easier to update with up to the hour info. Heck you could have the pilot in the cockpit about to taxi for takeoff when an update comes in and it can be sent OTA to the pilot's ipad in a matter of minutes with no waiting for someone to print it, run it to the gate, the pilot to find the old version and pull it out, put in the new one etc.
Next step will be the flight attendants who also have several pounds of manuals. Even perhaps ipod touches for taking drink orders. Who knows, perhaps they will create an app that could tell you passenger provided information like the guy in seat 14C is a diabetic and the girl in 25A is allergic to nuts. Or remind you that the couple in Row 9 have a stroller that should be waiting at the gate at landing and don't forget the wheelchair for the nice old lady in Row 3.
iPad with a 10 hour battery on an 11 hour flight...
That's only a problem if there is not a way to recharge the ipad and you can bet that was the first thing the airlines took care of
United Airlines is a corporation and an enterprise. Apple is a consumer products company. Apple should not sell to enterprise customers. Apple should only sell to small businesses with less than 5 employees.
Just because a company's primary design focus is consumers and the occasional prosumer doesn't equal that they should be banned from selling to anyone that can use their products. If anything such a ban is a horrible move. It would create an environment where single utility devices would be put into play and given the captive audience, the prices would be insane (and passed on via higher ticket prices etc).
This is what happened with assistive communication devices when the insurance companies decided they wouldn't cover a penny of the cost if the device could be used for anything else. So no laptops, no ipads etc. Companies started making multi thousand dollar devices and the patients had to use them and get a partial to full insurance coverage or use a computer at their own cost which included very costly software etc.
Either way... we are still allowed to use it for approach plates... I really don't care if they want to keep a bag of backup paper charts behind my seat for all eternity... as long as I don't have to actually open it and use them!
Now... they haven't actually handed any of these out yet, so I'll be the first to admit that how they will be allowed to be used is subject to much change from what they're telling us...
Legally you won't. Class 1 EFB must be stowed for ops below 10000. You can reference manuals above 10 or out of sterile. You won't be able to shoot approaches off the iPads.
Dick, hi no i use my old laminated card for preflights, except for weight and balance app. I use Foreflight on the ground for flight planning and weather briefing. Seems the ipad only gets in the way for preflight stuff. Only use logbooks for maint stuff. Foreflight is also looking into ADS-B traffic displays but all this stuff, and weather nexrad would require two more inflight communications systems different from typical internet connectivity, so it seems far off for now. The great thing about all these apps is the ability to work independantly from internet connectivity.
Foreflight seems to be by far the most popular product among the private pilots I know, but our needs are quite different than ATPs flying for the corps. It makes VFR flight planning a cinch, and the innovation of moving-map sectionals is worth the price of admission all by itself (assuming your iPad is GPS equipped). I'm going to really miss my plotter and E6B. Not! Oh and my chart-folding-while-flying skills will probably wither away right along with my knowledge of flying from/to course through VORs. What is the world coming to?
Legally you won't. Class 1 EFB must be stowed for ops below 10000. You can reference manuals above 10 or out of sterile. You won't be able to shoot approaches off the iPads.
see... that's contrary to what we're being told by management ... but then, it certainly wouldn't be the first time management lied to me.
And the FAA grants waivers all the time for us to do stuff that would otherwise be contrary to FAR's.
United Airlines is a corporation and an enterprise. Apple is a consumer products company. Apple should not sell to enterprise customers. Apple should only sell to small businesses with less than 5 employees.
This is not the case for Apple (just a consumer products company). You see them making inroads into the corporate landscape and in enterprise engineering with devices such as the iPad and the iPhone by the day. Given that I happen to work for United (formerly Continental) and am very close to this development, I can certainly attest to Apple's prowess in making this most certainly an enterprise device.
The challenge that Apple has currently is how they plan to manage these devices at an enterprise engineering level, as there are several Apps that are attempting to beat Apple to the punch in regards to their own devices (managing the configuration, apps users can download, sites they can access, documents that can be pushed to them, etc. I can almost bet Apple has some sort of systems management software in the works for just this purpose. If they don't, it would be a huge missed opportunity. Time will tell.
see... that's contrary to what we're being told by management ... but then, it certainly wouldn't be the first time management lied to me.
And the FAA grants waivers all the time for us to do stuff that would otherwise be contrary to FAR's.
The chances for getting a waiver for something that needs an STC is zero. These things need to be hooked into the aircraft's power and mounted.
I'm sure the goal is Class 2, but right now no airline is authorized.
The chances for getting a waiver for something that needs an STC is zero. These things need to be hooked into the aircraft's power and mounted.
I'm sure the goal is Class 2, but right now no airline is authorized.
Then again, who cares if it's Class 2 approved or not (from a pilots perspective, anyway)... let them keep a case of paper charts behind my seat (so that a class 2/3 device is not needed) ... I'll never open them... I'll just use my worthless "Class 1" iPad when I need to look at a chart.
The day I quit lugging around a 40 pound bag of paper (circa 1950's technology) can't come soon enough!
To date, United still has not even ORDERED the iPads, much less deployed them.
I'm thinking this was maybe a PR move to try to convince the public that the airline uses the latest technology. In practice, they seem to have no intention of doing so.