After the FCPX debacle, I believe "formerly respected" would be appropriate.
I think that that's unfair!
I've watched Larry's presos on FCPX, taken a few of his courses, and followed his blog.
Larry appears to have approached FCPX with an honest assessment of what it is, what it can become, and what it isn't -- and put faith in Apple based on what he saw in FCPX and his prior experience with dealings with Apple and use of FCP over many years. FCP took several years before it was a usable product.
I think he was as surprised as anyone with the way Apple bungled the FCP X announcement, then quickly EOLed FCP 7.
BTW, for those who haven’t seen it. this is a sober and profound discussion of FCP X and FCP 7 by a panel of experts — including Larry:
I do believe that Parkinson's Law or the Peter Principal is involved here!
I am 72 years young -- in those many years, I've played the "stupid card" enough times -- to recognize it when I see it!
It's a shame if the note you link to is the truth and I suspect it is. I for one hoped Apple might rethink this and retain 7 and continue to develop it for the pro studios. After many weeks of serious comparison FCP 7 and FCP X are so different as to be like night and day. I don't want to restart a debate on the merits of either but the list of what I can do in 7 and can't in X is so long now as to be mind boggling. In trying to get my head around what the fundamental difference is I'd sum it up as the all encompassing automation in X that has me stymied in so many areas. A tiny example of the 'thinking for me' in X. Last night I simply wanted to capture a few seconds from an HD video camera of the studio. There was no media in the camera and I didn't need any as I was writing straight to disk. FCP X refused as the camera 'had no media' ... I flipped back to FCP 7 ... no problem.' I could go on all day. I repeat, I like X for what it is designed to do it is simply a different product and no replacement for 7 ... yet ...
Or when MS had to offer "downgrades" to previous versions of Mac Office because their new version sucked so much (I forget, was that Office 6 or 7 that was so bad). Or when MS kept trying to stop sales of XP but couldn't because their new OS wasn't up to the task.
I hope Apple doesn't keep following Microsoft's lead in this particular category!
What has M$ to do with it?
I'm not big fan of M$ either but you guys should stop using it as scapegoat for Apple's mistakes. Apple made an incredible stupid move with iMovie Pro and EOLing Final Cut Studio, Final Cut Server and Xserver. They were a trusted platform at an enterprise level. But Apple broke that trust by the way they chose to handle the iMovie Pro issue. No fanboy rhetoric can change that fact.
M$, Autodesk, Adobe, Avid, nor Oracle, nor Dell, nor HP, or any other tech company have ever pulled the rug like that from a loyal and strong customer base. Sony has both Pro and consumer products division. That would have been a nice strategy to emulate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelligent
Agreed. I have to say, this doesn't sound like a Jobsian decision.
"Jobsian?"... Gimme a break... As much credit as Mr Jobs rightfully deserves for his incredible marketing and showmanship skills, all he did with the original Mac OS and GUI was to copy Xerox PARC's (he later tried to sue M$ for doing the same thing he was doing). As for the iPhone, LG Prada was out a year before the iPhone and take a look at it.
I love Apple products like most people but some of you most definitely need to signup with ACFAA (Apple Certified Fanatics and Apologists Anonymous). There you guys will learn that because you love your x-branded item doesn't mean that you should bash other people's y-branded items. You will also learn to stop "idolizing" the holy creator of your x-branded item and that you have the right to "think" for yourself without fear of being cast out by the "movement".
Apple products are great products, but that's all they are, products. Designed in California but made in China. Just like Dell's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
Hold on, now!
I do believe that Parkinson's Law or the Peter Principal is involved here!
I am 72 years young -- in those many years, I've played the "stupid card" enough times -- to recognize it when I see it!
The words right above are words of wisdom..... Thank you Dick!
I'm not big fan of M$ either but you guys should stop using it as scapegoat for Apple's mistakes. Apple made an incredible stupid move with iMovie Pro and EOLing Final Cut Studio, Final Cut Server and Xserver. They were a trusted platform at an enterprise level. But Apple broke that trust by the way they chose to handle the iMovie Pro issue. No fanboy rhetoric can change that fact.
M$, Autodesk, Adobe, Avid, nor Oracle, nor Dell, nor HP, or any other tech company have ever pulled the rug like that from a loyal and strong customer base. Sony has both Pro and consumer products division. That would have been a nice strategy to emulate.
"Jobsian?"... Gimme a break... As much credit as Mr Jobs rightfully deserves for his incredible marketing and showmanship skills, all he did with the original Mac OS and GUI was to copy Xerox PARC's (he later tried to sue M$ for doing the same thing he was doing). As for the iPhone, LG Prada was out a year before the iPhone and take a look at it.
I love Apple products like most people but some of you most definitely need to signup with ACFAA (Apple Certified Fanatics and Apologists Anonymous). There you guys will learn that because you love your x-branded item doesn't mean that you should bash other people's y-branded items. You will also learn to stop "idolizing" the holy creator of your x-branded item and that you have the right to "think" for yourself without fear of being cast out by the "movement".
Apple products are great products, but that's all they are, products. Designed in California but made in China. Just like Dell's.
The words right above are words of wisdom..... Thank you Dick!
So much incorrect and misinterpreted information. Not worth responding to. Thanks for the laughs though.
Maybe you have a limited qty of boxed packages already on the shelf - but in the days of digital download - it should be possible to continue selling a product that people are still buying almost indefinitely.
You can certainly at some point say that you are no longer updating a given version - or no longer producing printed docs etc - or no longer providing phone support for a given version etc - but really what is the cost of having one more ISO on your server for people to download and pay for a license key?
It would seem to me that you could let the market decide when it is time to discontinue the old title - say 6 months of no single download of the old version - and whatever number of upgrades to the new version percentage wise compared to the old version - and THEN when you announce the withdrawal of the old version - no one cares - because the majority of your user base is already on the new version.
I'm not big fan of M$ either but you guys should stop using it as scapegoat for Apple's mistakes.
Might I suggest investing in a dictionary and looking up the word analogy. Or perhaps considering the concept of drawing parallel examples. There was not a single word in the original post that attempted to make MS a scapegoat for anything.
The point was that Apple, in some ways, has been making more big blunders like those MS has made in the past. Apple built it's reputation as the alternative choice, anti-big brother, Think Different, quality over quantity, and all of that. But sometimes they do things like FCPX or iMovie and it makes them look like just another bumbling tech giant...just another Microsoft.
I'd rather see features added to FCPX sooner. Surprised there haven't been any notable updates yet
I kinda feel the same way. It's good that FCS is for sale again but it was nice to see them make a radical change and Final Cut Studio should still be regarded as legacy software rather than the solution to the problem. Final Cut Pro X is a good direction to go, it just needs more work.
Integrating the APIs and requested features could take a bit of time though so at least this adds another option to simply migrating away from Final Cut for the time being because those people might not bother migrating back. An NLE isn't just for Christmas.
Final Cut Pro X is a good direction to go, it just needs more work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quartermaster
How is that good?
Many FCP 7 "Pro" editors will admit that:
1) FCP wasn't really useful for the first 2-3 years.
2) The last few upgrades to FCP have been relatively minor.
This, latter, is likely due to the fact that the design of FCP goes back to the 1990s, and the code and architecture is obsolete.
At some point in time, it makes more sense to start over with the latest technology -- rather than attempt to retrofit it into an obsolete implementation.
The big mistake, IMO, was EOLing FCP 7 before FCP X had grown robust enough (adding missing features) to replace it.
It appears that FCP X is an entirely new breed of app -- that can take advantage and exploit whatever hardware you can throw at it -- be it a server network, floortop, desktop, laptop or an iPad.
FCP X isn't all there yet -- but like an old Cubbies fan would say: "Just, wait 'till next year".
Native AVCHD editing (along with a slew of new formats)
mixed video formats on the timeline
real time rendering/preview
beefed up titler
If all you're making is web videos, it's marvelous. If you're exporting to any non-apple-approved format (DVD, Blu-Ray, tape for archival purposes) working with really complex projects, revisiting previous projects, or working in a collaborative environment, it's a total dumpster fire.
Native AVCHD editing (along with a slew of new formats)
mixed video formats on the timeline
real time rendering/preview
beefed up titler
If all you're making is web videos, it's marvelous. If you're exporting to any non-apple-approved format (DVD, Blu-Ray, tape for archival purposes) working with really complex projects, revisiting previous projects, or working in a collaborative environment,
Here, If you're really interested in seeing some of the differences between FCP 7 and FCP X, watch this video that shows some basic editing functions performed with each.
The presenter didn't say whether the FCP apps were run on the same machine -- I suspect they were.
If you pay close attention, you will notice that the FCP X interface is much smoother and more intuitive. There are less things to worry about (not having to re-sync sound, after the length of clips change).
Also, in FCP 7 the changes would require a render before they could be played back for review.
In FCP X you play back immediately with no wait for render -- basically, you edit with high speed proxy media and high-quality media is rendered in the background.
All in all, for edits like these (and many others) the FCP X process is more intuitive, more interactive and yields results in less time -- this is important if you have deadlines and/or get paid by the job.
FCP X is not there yet, but there is this almost irresistible siren's promise of the future of editing.
Not that old code is necessarily bad - some of OS X's core system will date back further - but media formats evolve and so do high-level architectures and starting over is often the best way to go. Given the evolution of FCP over the years, I think it's clear this was the only way.
When they entirely rework an architecture, there are benefits you don't even notice like using a database for projects means you don't have to read an entire file before you open a project so no preparation time (this is how a website works). It also partly negates the need for saving (certainly auto-save) because you don't do this on a website either. When you post on this forum, it's backed up but nobody versions the state of the forum as an independent database - there is the ability for internal versioning and non-linear versioning as well.
What's mostly missing in FCPX is features and features can be added.
In the videos posted earlier, Larry Jordan said Apple has made it clear their intent is still for FCPX to be used in a professional context and there's no misdirection in that explicit statement when they direct at the people they are directing it at. Any substance behind this will become apparent in due time.
Putting FCS back up for sale shows that they can't get FCPX ready quickly enough to satisfy the users they want to satisfy. The licensing issue is interesting, possibly ties to the KeyGrip legacy and could point to the premature release:
Regardless, the move was made and we only see the results - as Larry puts it, we're on the poop deck and the people steering the ship have a higher vantage point. We can put the notions of creative vision aside and focus on the business side. Building a codebase that is entirely free from licensing constraints and legacy is a good, future-proof business decision.
Comments
Hold on, now!
Larry Jordan a respected FCP expert, editor and trainer
[/I][/B]
After the FCPX debacle, I believe "formerly respected" would be appropriate.
After the FCPX debacle, I believe "formerly respected" would be appropriate.
I think that that's unfair!
I've watched Larry's presos on FCPX, taken a few of his courses, and followed his blog.
Larry appears to have approached FCPX with an honest assessment of what it is, what it can become, and what it isn't -- and put faith in Apple based on what he saw in FCPX and his prior experience with dealings with Apple and use of FCP over many years. FCP took several years before it was a usable product.
I think he was as surprised as anyone with the way Apple bungled the FCP X announcement, then quickly EOLed FCP 7.
BTW, for those who haven’t seen it. this is a sober and profound discussion of FCP X and FCP 7 by a panel of experts — including Larry:
The Final Cut - The whole presentation online
After the FCPX debacle, I believe "formerly respected" would be appropriate.
FINALLY - someone says it
Hold on, now!
Larry Jordan a respected FCP expert, editor and trainer has posted the following update to his blog:
FCP 7 Back On Sale! – UPDATED
I do believe that Parkinson's Law or the Peter Principal is involved here!
I am 72 years young -- in those many years, I've played the "stupid card" enough times -- to recognize it when I see it!
It's a shame if the note you link to is the truth and I suspect it is. I for one hoped Apple might rethink this and retain 7 and continue to develop it for the pro studios. After many weeks of serious comparison FCP 7 and FCP X are so different as to be like night and day. I don't want to restart a debate on the merits of either but the list of what I can do in 7 and can't in X is so long now as to be mind boggling. In trying to get my head around what the fundamental difference is I'd sum it up as the all encompassing automation in X that has me stymied in so many areas. A tiny example of the 'thinking for me' in X. Last night I simply wanted to capture a few seconds from an HD video camera of the studio. There was no media in the camera and I didn't need any as I was writing straight to disk. FCP X refused as the camera 'had no media' ... I flipped back to FCP 7 ... no problem.' I could go on all day. I repeat, I like X for what it is designed to do it is simply a different product and no replacement for 7 ... yet ...
Or when MS had to offer "downgrades" to previous versions of Mac Office because their new version sucked so much (I forget, was that Office 6 or 7 that was so bad). Or when MS kept trying to stop sales of XP but couldn't because their new OS wasn't up to the task.
I hope Apple doesn't keep following Microsoft's lead in this particular category!
What has M$ to do with it?
I'm not big fan of M$ either but you guys should stop using it as scapegoat for Apple's mistakes. Apple made an incredible stupid move with iMovie Pro and EOLing Final Cut Studio, Final Cut Server and Xserver. They were a trusted platform at an enterprise level. But Apple broke that trust by the way they chose to handle the iMovie Pro issue. No fanboy rhetoric can change that fact.
M$, Autodesk, Adobe, Avid, nor Oracle, nor Dell, nor HP, or any other tech company have ever pulled the rug like that from a loyal and strong customer base. Sony has both Pro and consumer products division. That would have been a nice strategy to emulate.
Agreed. I have to say, this doesn't sound like a Jobsian decision.
"Jobsian?"... Gimme a break... As much credit as Mr Jobs rightfully deserves for his incredible marketing and showmanship skills, all he did with the original Mac OS and GUI was to copy Xerox PARC's (he later tried to sue M$ for doing the same thing he was doing). As for the iPhone, LG Prada was out a year before the iPhone and take a look at it.
I love Apple products like most people but some of you most definitely need to signup with ACFAA (Apple Certified Fanatics and Apologists Anonymous). There you guys will learn that because you love your x-branded item doesn't mean that you should bash other people's y-branded items. You will also learn to stop "idolizing" the holy creator of your x-branded item and that you have the right to "think" for yourself without fear of being cast out by the "movement".
Apple products are great products, but that's all they are, products. Designed in California but made in China. Just like Dell's.
Hold on, now!
I do believe that Parkinson's Law or the Peter Principal is involved here!
I am 72 years young -- in those many years, I've played the "stupid card" enough times -- to recognize it when I see it!
The words right above are words of wisdom..... Thank you Dick!
That's wonderful, Tim.
Now, how about iMacs with antiglare screens, and wireless aluminum keyboards with numeric keypads?
Heck. Why stop there? Bring on the XMac!
What has M$ to do with it?
I'm not big fan of M$ either but you guys should stop using it as scapegoat for Apple's mistakes. Apple made an incredible stupid move with iMovie Pro and EOLing Final Cut Studio, Final Cut Server and Xserver. They were a trusted platform at an enterprise level. But Apple broke that trust by the way they chose to handle the iMovie Pro issue. No fanboy rhetoric can change that fact.
M$, Autodesk, Adobe, Avid, nor Oracle, nor Dell, nor HP, or any other tech company have ever pulled the rug like that from a loyal and strong customer base. Sony has both Pro and consumer products division. That would have been a nice strategy to emulate.
"Jobsian?"... Gimme a break... As much credit as Mr Jobs rightfully deserves for his incredible marketing and showmanship skills, all he did with the original Mac OS and GUI was to copy Xerox PARC's (he later tried to sue M$ for doing the same thing he was doing). As for the iPhone, LG Prada was out a year before the iPhone and take a look at it.
I love Apple products like most people but some of you most definitely need to signup with ACFAA (Apple Certified Fanatics and Apologists Anonymous). There you guys will learn that because you love your x-branded item doesn't mean that you should bash other people's y-branded items. You will also learn to stop "idolizing" the holy creator of your x-branded item and that you have the right to "think" for yourself without fear of being cast out by the "movement".
Apple products are great products, but that's all they are, products. Designed in California but made in China. Just like Dell's.
The words right above are words of wisdom..... Thank you Dick!
So much incorrect and misinterpreted information. Not worth responding to. Thanks for the laughs though.
Heck. Why stop there? Bring on the XMac!
I'm this close to outright reporting you for this nonsense.
Maybe you have a limited qty of boxed packages already on the shelf - but in the days of digital download - it should be possible to continue selling a product that people are still buying almost indefinitely.
You can certainly at some point say that you are no longer updating a given version - or no longer producing printed docs etc - or no longer providing phone support for a given version etc - but really what is the cost of having one more ISO on your server for people to download and pay for a license key?
It would seem to me that you could let the market decide when it is time to discontinue the old title - say 6 months of no single download of the old version - and whatever number of upgrades to the new version percentage wise compared to the old version - and THEN when you announce the withdrawal of the old version - no one cares - because the majority of your user base is already on the new version.
What has M$ to do with it?
I'm not big fan of M$ either but you guys should stop using it as scapegoat for Apple's mistakes.
Might I suggest investing in a dictionary and looking up the word analogy. Or perhaps considering the concept of drawing parallel examples. There was not a single word in the original post that attempted to make MS a scapegoat for anything.
The point was that Apple, in some ways, has been making more big blunders like those MS has made in the past. Apple built it's reputation as the alternative choice, anti-big brother, Think Different, quality over quantity, and all of that. But sometimes they do things like FCPX or iMovie and it makes them look like just another bumbling tech giant...just another Microsoft.
But I suppose this is a zero cost effort on Apple's part. The inventory already exists. Unless there's a pro level annual support contract for FCS3?
I'd rather see features added to FCPX sooner. Surprised there haven't been any notable updates yet
I kinda feel the same way. It's good that FCS is for sale again but it was nice to see them make a radical change and Final Cut Studio should still be regarded as legacy software rather than the solution to the problem. Final Cut Pro X is a good direction to go, it just needs more work.
Integrating the APIs and requested features could take a bit of time though so at least this adds another option to simply migrating away from Final Cut for the time being because those people might not bother migrating back. An NLE isn't just for Christmas.
Final Cut Pro X is a good direction to go, it just needs more work.
How is that good?
Final Cut Pro X is a good direction to go, it just needs more work.
How is that good?
Many FCP 7 "Pro" editors will admit that:
1) FCP wasn't really useful for the first 2-3 years.
2) The last few upgrades to FCP have been relatively minor.
This, latter, is likely due to the fact that the design of FCP goes back to the 1990s, and the code and architecture is obsolete.
At some point in time, it makes more sense to start over with the latest technology -- rather than attempt to retrofit it into an obsolete implementation.
The big mistake, IMO, was EOLing FCP 7 before FCP X had grown robust enough (adding missing features) to replace it.
It appears that FCP X is an entirely new breed of app -- that can take advantage and exploit whatever hardware you can throw at it -- be it a server network, floortop, desktop, laptop or an iPad.
FCP X isn't all there yet -- but like an old Cubbies fan would say: "Just, wait 'till next year".
How is that good?
64 bit.
Native AVCHD editing (along with a slew of new formats)
mixed video formats on the timeline
real time rendering/preview
beefed up titler
If all you're making is web videos, it's marvelous. If you're exporting to any non-apple-approved format (DVD, Blu-Ray, tape for archival purposes) working with really complex projects, revisiting previous projects, or working in a collaborative environment, it's a total dumpster fire.
64 bit.
Native AVCHD editing (along with a slew of new formats)
mixed video formats on the timeline
real time rendering/preview
beefed up titler
If all you're making is web videos, it's marvelous. If you're exporting to any non-apple-approved format (DVD, Blu-Ray, tape for archival purposes) working with really complex projects, revisiting previous projects, or working in a collaborative environment,
But 'more work', how is that good?
it's a total dumpster fire.
Dumpster fires are good?
But 'more work', how is that good?
Here, If you're really interested in seeing some of the differences between FCP 7 and FCP X, watch this video that shows some basic editing functions performed with each.
FCP7 to FCPX- How different are ripple, roll, slip and slide?
The presenter didn't say whether the FCP apps were run on the same machine -- I suspect they were.
If you pay close attention, you will notice that the FCP X interface is much smoother and more intuitive. There are less things to worry about (not having to re-sync sound, after the length of clips change).
Also, in FCP 7 the changes would require a render before they could be played back for review.
In FCP X you play back immediately with no wait for render -- basically, you edit with high speed proxy media and high-quality media is rendered in the background.
All in all, for edits like these (and many others) the FCP X process is more intuitive, more interactive and yields results in less time -- this is important if you have deadlines and/or get paid by the job.
FCP X is not there yet, but there is this almost irresistible siren's promise of the future of editing.
My thoughts on FCPX
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pliT0itT5rc
But 'more work', how is that good?
Final Cut Pro X is a good direction in spite of there being more work left to do.
It's a change that had to be taken. The FCP7 save file header is still Macromedia KeyGrip, which dates back to 1996:
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Media+......-a018649014
Not that old code is necessarily bad - some of OS X's core system will date back further - but media formats evolve and so do high-level architectures and starting over is often the best way to go. Given the evolution of FCP over the years, I think it's clear this was the only way.
When they entirely rework an architecture, there are benefits you don't even notice like using a database for projects means you don't have to read an entire file before you open a project so no preparation time (this is how a website works). It also partly negates the need for saving (certainly auto-save) because you don't do this on a website either. When you post on this forum, it's backed up but nobody versions the state of the forum as an independent database - there is the ability for internal versioning and non-linear versioning as well.
What's mostly missing in FCPX is features and features can be added.
In the videos posted earlier, Larry Jordan said Apple has made it clear their intent is still for FCPX to be used in a professional context and there's no misdirection in that explicit statement when they direct at the people they are directing it at. Any substance behind this will become apparent in due time.
Putting FCS back up for sale shows that they can't get FCPX ready quickly enough to satisfy the users they want to satisfy. The licensing issue is interesting, possibly ties to the KeyGrip legacy and could point to the premature release:
http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/10096
Regardless, the move was made and we only see the results - as Larry puts it, we're on the poop deck and the people steering the ship have a higher vantage point. We can put the notions of creative vision aside and focus on the business side. Building a codebase that is entirely free from licensing constraints and legacy is a good, future-proof business decision.
I'm not sure this means much other than they are selling their remaining supply of copies.
My thoughts on FCPX
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pliT0itT5rc
Nice!
Now, My Turn:
FCPX Ripple, Roll, Slip and Slide