Karma is actually the Law of Cause and Effect. Where the mysticism comes into it is ...
This the mysticism part of Buddhism:
Quote:
from buddhanet.net/e-learning/karma.htm
Every birth is conditioned by a past good or bad karma, which predominated at the moment of death. Karma that conditions the future birth is called Reproductive Karma. The death of a person is merely ?a temporary end of a temporary phenomenon?. Though the present form perishes, another form which is neither the same nor absolutely different takes its place, according to the potential thought-vibration generated at the death moment, because the Karmic force which propels the life-flux still survives. It is this last thought, which is technically called Reproductive (janaka) Karma, that determines the state of a person in his subsequent birth. This may be either a good or bad Karma.
As unlikely as the Christian belief in resurrection.
Agnosticism deals with knowledge and knowledge only, it does not mean "unsure" like people seem to think it means, it is the position that the nature of reality cannot be truly known. One can be agnostic and also atheist or theist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody
I think you are reading a lot in there.
Also, it's much easier to read into your comments the fact that you seem to think there is something "wrong" with being an atheist.
Methinks thou dost protest too much.
There's nothing wrong with atheism. It's not a disease, it's the triumph of reason over superstition. I would maintain that there is more to admire about atheists than non-atheists.
respect given!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody
Non-theist is the most accurate description.
Atheism is based on reason and logic.
Buddhism (no offence to Buddhists), still has a lot of mysticism/ritual in it and in many places the Buddha himself is revered as a god.
Karma for instance is an irrational, magical concept.
There are several sects of Buddhism, and I know at least one is textbook atheistic (meaning no belief in a deity of any kind) superstition does not negate atheist except in its materialistic form.
As with theism, atheism is a broad brush.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kotatsu
Most intellectuals are atheists, so it's surprising to think Steve might have believed in magic and the like. I suspect he was more interested in the meditation and calm aspects of budhism rather than any illogical belief in super powers and fairy tales.
Whatever he believed in though, holding a christian ceremony with all the unpleasant baggage that entails seems a perverse and disrespectful way to see him off.
I doubt he had a Christian ceremony.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer
Buddhism has it's fountain of knowledge from Hinduism.
How anyone can classify it as Atheism truly seems to miss the roots of it's origin.
Same reason we don't call Catholicism and other Christian sects Pagan.
That's still a very different thing from being atheist. Atheism is a religion, it's staking a position of faith in "not", rather than just not thinking about it one way or the other.
It's NOT a religion because "faith" is not the reason for denying the existence of a deity. It's rather a question of philosophy.
Society often reverses the burden of proof when talking about religion. The burden of proving the existence of something falls on the shoulders of those who made the claim, otherwise you wouldn't be able to tell your kids that fairies, Santa and the Easter Bunny don't exist and be right, since there is no way to prove that they don't.
Also, I always thought Steve practiced a Buddhist lifestyle, not the religion proper. In my point of view, he was either an atheist, an agnostic, or a deist, but a theist he was not.
I don't have anything to base this on either, but I always got the impression that while Steve may have dabbled in Buddhism when he was younger, that religion of any kind was not something that he was very concerned with.
That's still a very different thing from being atheist. Atheism is a religion, it's staking a position of faith in "not", rather than just not thinking about it one way or the other.
I'm very excited to get the biography when it comes out to see how much of that kind of personal stuff is revealed.
oh my how could I miss this.
Just a question.
Is theism a religion?
Naturalistic atheism (the main "Sect" of atheism it seems) is hardly religious in any way. Those who define themselves as such follow no doctrine, no dogma, have no ceremonies, nothing in common beyond a belief in a natural universe.
Sounds like a nice memorial and how Steve touched the lives of a lot of people, even among his peers and contemporaries.
It is a shame that all the kind remarks and warm remembrances come after the fact. It's like when you lose a family member and opine that you wished you told them you loved them more often.
This is probably true. Memorial services are for the benefit of the living, and Steve had an affinity for Palo Alto, but not for religious reasons.
Thanks for weighing in on this. It seemed that many in the thread were equating a memorial with a funeral. The funeral, whatever form it took, occurred last week. From what I have heard I assume he was buried and not cremated, which kind of surprised me. Although he may have been cremated and his ashes interred. At least there is nothing to suggest that there was any of that cryogenic stuff. That would have been creepy and out of character from the little I know of him.
I would have assumed Jobs would have had a Buddhist ceremony, but I'm not 100% sure if he even was one. He certainly did not sound like a "Christian"... he sounded more like an atheist.
I would have assumed Jobs would have had a Buddhist ceremony, but I'm not 100% sure if he even was one. He certainly did not sound like a "Christian"... he sounded more like an atheist.
Because I doubt you could identify one from speech in general conversation.
So now I am required to withhold my faith just because you are an atheist? I am talking about them, not you - so if you are not one of them, you have no right to feel offended; I am just expressing my views.
Chill out, Sir.
You have repeatedly indicated that if someone isn't following the Christian faith that there is something wrong with them. That is a ridiculously and highly offensive point of view. By definition ones faith can not be any more right nor wrong than anybody else's.
If I had to guess, at least a couple segments will be made public...
Quote:
Originally Posted by cvaldes1831
My guess is there is and the Jobs family will control distribution. It will probably be sent to the attendees and people on the guest list who were unable to attend the private ceremony.
Note that Steve and Laurene Jobs have been very private people and limited public access to their personal lives.
It would be totally out of character if the family released a public video of a private, invitation-only event.
Only if you use the phrase "belief system" with "religion" interchangeably.
A belief becomes a religion when there is some sort of organized system of behaviors, symbols, etc. that unites the believer with a group of other people who have the same beliefs.
Believing that there is some sort of deity (or deities) isn't a religion. However, if you perform certain rituals, read certain passages from a book, sing particular songs, go to a specific location where like-minded individuals congregate, then yes, it's a religion, whether it be dancing around a particular tree in the forest, or muttering a few words, standing up and down in unison and eating a cracker.
This has often been referred to as the public memorial. It was not public. It was by invitation only, and the media couldn't get anywhere near it. I fully understand the family and close friends having a small private memorial. That was entirely appropriate. None of us needed to intrude in that. But I regret that this larger memorial was not televised so that the millions of us who thought so much of this incredible man could share and hear some of the wonderful things that were said.
It is common to televise the "public" memorial services of famous people. If they didn't want to televise it live, they could have made a video available afterwards. Maybe we'll be allowed to see the memorial at the Apple campus but I doubt it.
If the exclusion of the public was at the request of the family, I respect that. They certainly have that right. None of us can fully appreciate their loss, but that's not to say that we haven't felt a great loss in Steve's passing. I shared the shock and sadness of millions around the world. I wish I could have heard the heartfelt words spoken at this public memorial. Maybe we will eventually. I hope so.
In the meantime, I join millions in celebrating Steve Jobs wonder life.
Naturalistic atheism (the main "Sect" of atheism it seems) is hardly religious in any way. Those who define themselves as such follow no doctrine, no dogma, have no ceremonies, nothing in common beyond a belief in a natural universe.
I'd say it's a category on which other religions fit into, but can also be a by itself
But you really should stay away from concepts about which you are clueless.
That said, it's not the first time that it has defied the understanding of even smart people.
Oh, here we go... If it's considered irrational by rational people, certainly it must be beyond their level of comprehension, there's no way they are correct, no sir.
As unlikely as the Christian belief in resurrection.
The Karma [Law of Cause and Effect] dictates the raising and lowering of one's state of ascension to a higher plane of existence [pure energy, to go to the extreme] and with each incarnation 1.) one relives lessons they failed to overcome in their previous culmination of lives, a.) by either maintaining the past life's accumulated level of awareness without overcoming those lessons [unknown to them and only exposed through experience] , 1b.) they evolve in other areas [new experiences without knowing these are important levels of evolution] while still failing in areas prior to this current [keeping them in a wait state], 2.) or they manage to overcome lessons and thus cut ties with past life experiences allowing them to evolve.
All of it presumes one must meditate and though a path of introspection raising upon the planes [each state of yoga has a specific chakra and awareness attributed to it] of singularity one can reach the state of Samadhi and ``understand'' their Way, their True Will, their purpose in life and to do that purpose.
Jnana, Raja, Kharma and Bhakti Yoga, along with Hatha Yoga teach anyone basic principles of inner illumination. Besides better conditioning the body through improved circulation, better flexibility [stronger tendons, ligaments, etc], and the ability to control the breath you tend to become a more centered and purpose driven individual.
It's also free from Dogma.
Whether one reincarnates or not as the Law of Conservation of Energy still holds true regarding Enery and Matter, the precepts of taking ownership of your actions is a universal principle that no Dogma can take claim of creating and thus dictating how one can repent their actions of the past.
It's obvious no one here really has any clue as to what faith Steve Jobs chose to follow, if at all.
I'll bet he wouldn't care less what any of us thought about it either.
If people want to speculate, fine.
Just don't be a pathetic sissy and start crying about how you got "offended" by some comment.
If you're that easily offended, 1. Toughen the hell up. 2. Shut the hell up.
I use to enjoy reading comments here at AI (occasionally posting myself). I chose AppleInsider to be my primary source for Apple related rumors and such because the community here would inspire thoughtful debates and could articulate them as such.
Comments
The reason for the `Church' centers around availability of space to hold a service. People read far too much into it.
This is probably true. Memorial services are for the benefit of the living, and Steve had an affinity for Palo Alto, but not for religious reasons.
Karma is actually the Law of Cause and Effect. Where the mysticism comes into it is ...
This the mysticism part of Buddhism:
from buddhanet.net/e-learning/karma.htm
Every birth is conditioned by a past good or bad karma, which predominated at the moment of death. Karma that conditions the future birth is called Reproductive Karma. The death of a person is merely ?a temporary end of a temporary phenomenon?. Though the present form perishes, another form which is neither the same nor absolutely different takes its place, according to the potential thought-vibration generated at the death moment, because the Karmic force which propels the life-flux still survives. It is this last thought, which is technically called Reproductive (janaka) Karma, that determines the state of a person in his subsequent birth. This may be either a good or bad Karma.
As unlikely as the Christian belief in resurrection.
Could be he was agnostic....
Agnosticism deals with knowledge and knowledge only, it does not mean "unsure" like people seem to think it means, it is the position that the nature of reality cannot be truly known. One can be agnostic and also atheist or theist.
I think you are reading a lot in there.
Also, it's much easier to read into your comments the fact that you seem to think there is something "wrong" with being an atheist.
Methinks thou dost protest too much.
There's nothing wrong with atheism. It's not a disease, it's the triumph of reason over superstition. I would maintain that there is more to admire about atheists than non-atheists.
respect given!
Non-theist is the most accurate description.
Atheism is based on reason and logic.
Buddhism (no offence to Buddhists), still has a lot of mysticism/ritual in it and in many places the Buddha himself is revered as a god.
Karma for instance is an irrational, magical concept.
There are several sects of Buddhism, and I know at least one is textbook atheistic (meaning no belief in a deity of any kind) superstition does not negate atheist except in its materialistic form.
As with theism, atheism is a broad brush.
Most intellectuals are atheists, so it's surprising to think Steve might have believed in magic and the like. I suspect he was more interested in the meditation and calm aspects of budhism rather than any illogical belief in super powers and fairy tales.
Whatever he believed in though, holding a christian ceremony with all the unpleasant baggage that entails seems a perverse and disrespectful way to see him off.
I doubt he had a Christian ceremony.
Buddhism has it's fountain of knowledge from Hinduism.
How anyone can classify it as Atheism truly seems to miss the roots of it's origin.
Same reason we don't call Catholicism and other Christian sects Pagan.
That's still a very different thing from being atheist. Atheism is a religion, it's staking a position of faith in "not", rather than just not thinking about it one way or the other.
It's NOT a religion because "faith" is not the reason for denying the existence of a deity.
Society often reverses the burden of proof when talking about religion. The burden of proving the existence of something falls on the shoulders of those who made the claim, otherwise you wouldn't be able to tell your kids that fairies, Santa and the Easter Bunny don't exist and be right, since there is no way to prove that they don't.
Also, I always thought Steve practiced a Buddhist lifestyle, not the religion proper. In my point of view, he was either an atheist, an agnostic, or a deist, but a theist he was not.
I don't have anything to base this on either, but I always got the impression that while Steve may have dabbled in Buddhism when he was younger, that religion of any kind was not something that he was very concerned with.
That's still a very different thing from being atheist. Atheism is a religion, it's staking a position of faith in "not", rather than just not thinking about it one way or the other.
I'm very excited to get the biography when it comes out to see how much of that kind of personal stuff is revealed.
oh my how could I miss this.
Just a question.
Is theism a religion?
Naturalistic atheism (the main "Sect" of atheism it seems) is hardly religious in any way. Those who define themselves as such follow no doctrine, no dogma, have no ceremonies, nothing in common beyond a belief in a natural universe.
It is a shame that all the kind remarks and warm remembrances come after the fact. It's like when you lose a family member and opine that you wished you told them you loved them more often.
Rest well Steve.
/
/
/
This is probably true. Memorial services are for the benefit of the living, and Steve had an affinity for Palo Alto, but not for religious reasons.
Thanks for weighing in on this. It seemed that many in the thread were equating a memorial with a funeral. The funeral, whatever form it took, occurred last week. From what I have heard I assume he was buried and not cremated, which kind of surprised me. Although he may have been cremated and his ashes interred. At least there is nothing to suggest that there was any of that cryogenic stuff. That would have been creepy and out of character from the little I know of him.
I would have assumed Jobs would have had a Buddhist ceremony, but I'm not 100% sure if he even was one. He certainly did not sound like a "Christian"... he sounded more like an atheist.
I would have assumed Jobs would have had a Buddhist ceremony, but I'm not 100% sure if he even was one. He certainly did not sound like a "Christian"... he sounded more like an atheist.
Because I doubt you could identify one from speech in general conversation.
Highly offensive to whom?
So now I am required to withhold my faith just because you are an atheist? I am talking about them, not you - so if you are not one of them, you have no right to feel offended; I am just expressing my views.
Chill out, Sir.
You have repeatedly indicated that if someone isn't following the Christian faith that there is something wrong with them. That is a ridiculously and highly offensive point of view. By definition ones faith can not be any more right nor wrong than anybody else's.
My guess is there is and the Jobs family will control distribution. It will probably be sent to the attendees and people on the guest list who were unable to attend the private ceremony.
Note that Steve and Laurene Jobs have been very private people and limited public access to their personal lives.
It would be totally out of character if the family released a public video of a private, invitation-only event.
Is theism a religion?
Only if you use the phrase "belief system" with "religion" interchangeably.
A belief becomes a religion when there is some sort of organized system of behaviors, symbols, etc. that unites the believer with a group of other people who have the same beliefs.
Believing that there is some sort of deity (or deities) isn't a religion. However, if you perform certain rituals, read certain passages from a book, sing particular songs, go to a specific location where like-minded individuals congregate, then yes, it's a religion, whether it be dancing around a particular tree in the forest, or muttering a few words, standing up and down in unison and eating a cracker.
True religion is an institutionalized system.
It is common to televise the "public" memorial services of famous people. If they didn't want to televise it live, they could have made a video available afterwards. Maybe we'll be allowed to see the memorial at the Apple campus but I doubt it.
If the exclusion of the public was at the request of the family, I respect that. They certainly have that right. None of us can fully appreciate their loss, but that's not to say that we haven't felt a great loss in Steve's passing. I shared the shock and sadness of millions around the world. I wish I could have heard the heartfelt words spoken at this public memorial. Maybe we will eventually. I hope so.
In the meantime, I join millions in celebrating Steve Jobs wonder life.
oh my how could I miss this.
Just a question.
Is theism a religion?
Naturalistic atheism (the main "Sect" of atheism it seems) is hardly religious in any way. Those who define themselves as such follow no doctrine, no dogma, have no ceremonies, nothing in common beyond a belief in a natural universe.
I'd say it's a category on which other religions fit into, but can also be a by itself
Karma for instance is an irrational, magical concept.
Generally, I like your posts.
But you really should stay away from concepts about which you are clueless.
That said, it's not the first time that it has defied the understanding of even smart people.
Buddhism has it's fountain of knowledge from Hinduism.
How anyone can classify it as Atheism truly seems to miss the roots of it's origin.
Agreed.
Generally, I like your posts.
But you really should stay away from concepts about which you are clueless.
That said, it's not the first time that it has defied the understanding of even smart people.
Oh, here we go... If it's considered irrational by rational people, certainly it must be beyond their level of comprehension, there's no way they are correct, no sir.
Agreed.
Hmm? Hinduism in itself is a mish-mash of multiple beliefs and schools of beliefs. Hinduism itself possesses an atheistic branch
This the mysticism part of Buddhism:
As unlikely as the Christian belief in resurrection.
The Karma [Law of Cause and Effect] dictates the raising and lowering of one's state of ascension to a higher plane of existence [pure energy, to go to the extreme] and with each incarnation 1.) one relives lessons they failed to overcome in their previous culmination of lives, a.) by either maintaining the past life's accumulated level of awareness without overcoming those lessons [unknown to them and only exposed through experience] , 1b.) they evolve in other areas [new experiences without knowing these are important levels of evolution] while still failing in areas prior to this current [keeping them in a wait state], 2.) or they manage to overcome lessons and thus cut ties with past life experiences allowing them to evolve.
All of it presumes one must meditate and though a path of introspection raising upon the planes [each state of yoga has a specific chakra and awareness attributed to it] of singularity one can reach the state of Samadhi and ``understand'' their Way, their True Will, their purpose in life and to do that purpose.
Jnana, Raja, Kharma and Bhakti Yoga, along with Hatha Yoga teach anyone basic principles of inner illumination. Besides better conditioning the body through improved circulation, better flexibility [stronger tendons, ligaments, etc], and the ability to control the breath you tend to become a more centered and purpose driven individual.
It's also free from Dogma.
Whether one reincarnates or not as the Law of Conservation of Energy still holds true regarding Enery and Matter, the precepts of taking ownership of your actions is a universal principle that no Dogma can take claim of creating and thus dictating how one can repent their actions of the past.
It's obvious no one here really has any clue as to what faith Steve Jobs chose to follow, if at all.
I'll bet he wouldn't care less what any of us thought about it either.
If people want to speculate, fine.
Just don't be a pathetic sissy and start crying about how you got "offended" by some comment.
If you're that easily offended, 1. Toughen the hell up. 2. Shut the hell up.
I use to enjoy reading comments here at AI (occasionally posting myself). I chose AppleInsider to be my primary source for Apple related rumors and such because the community here would inspire thoughtful debates and could articulate them as such.
I don't see that very often anymore.