Apple rumored to be initiating 'union awareness' training for retail managers

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 85
    anonymouseanonymouse Posts: 6,681member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Realistic View Post


    I'll give that all the problems you mentioned were real, whether they were or not. Please tell or preferably show me how the UAW solved JUST ONE of the problems that you mentioned? You can't because the UAW didn't solve any of them. ...



    My biggest problem with what's going on in this country is the education system. It seems that no one knows how to think rationally or even coherently these days.



    Oh, and by the way, it's not the UAW's job to solve the auto industry's problems. That's the auto industry's job. The UAW's job is to make sure the auto manufacturers treat and pay its members fairly. Unfortunately, because of the failure of our education system, it's easier for management in Detroit to simply point its fingers at the UAW and blame them than it is to accept responsibility for their own incompetence and stupidity. It also makes it easier to justify your own pay and bonuses if it's someone else's fault. It's always nice to have a whipping boy.
  • Reply 42 of 85
    blastdoorblastdoor Posts: 2,681member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hankx32 View Post


    I think Steve would literally climb out of his grave, tell everyone they were shit, fire them all, including the top brass and the board, cry like a baby, change the name to Zombie Computer, and run the entire thing himself, possibly keeping Jony Ive around for new designs.



    This is probably correct.



    The thing that strikes me about debates over unions is how totally irrational and absolutist people become. It seems to me that unions can serve a valid purpose. Sometimes they do it well, sometimes they do it poorly. Some unions are better than others, and generally speaking, I'm sure they could all be improved, perhaps dramatically. But the same is true of every other human-built institution.



    I've never been in a union myself, but when my mother was teaching (she's retired now) she was a member of the teacher's union. The good thing about the union is that it provided a recourse for teachers being treated unfairly by a principal (like store managers in retail, some principals can be nothing more than vindictive petty tyrants while others can be brilliant leaders of men). The bad thing about the union is that it worked to thwart efforts to hold teachers accountable for their performance. Obviously those two things are linked -- teachers don't want to be held accountable by a vindictive petty tyrant. The mistake of the union, I think, is to object to ALL efforts to hold teachers accountable rather than to simply object to stupid/capricious ways of holding teaches accountable.



    I think it would be cool if Apple were to make an effort to rethink the union and come up with a new, better institution that tries to provide some of the same worker protections of a union but that also values the success of Apple as an organization.
  • Reply 43 of 85
    richlrichl Posts: 2,213member
    If anyone needs protection from their employer, it's retail staff.



    Retail is full of bad managers, bad working practices and low pay.
  • Reply 44 of 85
    geekdadgeekdad Posts: 1,131member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Realistic View Post


    I'll give that all the problems you mentioned were real, whether they were or not. Please tell or preferably show me how the UAW solved JUST ONE of the problems that you mentioned? You can't because the UAW didn't solve any of them.



    You make unions merit and performanced based instead of all about longevity and seniority and I'll support unions.



    I think your right. I don't the see the abuses in labor and working conditions at Apple stores that would lead to employee dis satisfaction.

    Unions had their place and time in American history. They served a purpose because big business took advantage of the workforce. Long hours very little pay. Terminations not based on merit or productivity. Child labor and horrible unsafe working conditions. People had no choice but to accept the work conditions or not work and starve.

    You are deceiving yourself if you do not think it would get back to something like that again over time. Big business has shown throughout history that they will choose profit over safety time and time again. I am not pro union nor am I against them.......they serve a purpose.....
  • Reply 45 of 85
    geekdadgeekdad Posts: 1,131member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post


    My biggest problem with what's going on in this country is the education system. It seems that no one knows how to think rationally or even coherently these days.



    Oh, and by the way, it's not the UAW's job to solve the auto industry's problems. That's the auto industry's job. The UAW's job is to make sure the auto manufacturers treat and pay its members fairly. Unfortunately, because of the failure of our education system, it's easier for management in Detroit to simply point its fingers at the UAW and blame them than it is to accept responsibility for their own incompetence and stupidity. It also makes it easier to justify your own pay and bonuses if it's someone else's fault. It's always nice to have a whipping boy.



    Very good points! The auto industry reminds me of RIM and Nokia. RIM/Nokia had all the business and all the market share but did not keep up with technology and what the public wanted. They did not innovate or match their competition. Instead keep churning out the same old designs and technology only to watch the industry change and they lost market share.
  • Reply 46 of 85
    conrailconrail Posts: 489member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by k2director View Post


    Strong unions certainly haven't led to a strong economy for....



    The U.S. steel industry

    The U.S. auto industry

    U.S. public education

    The U.S. post office

    Amtrack

    etc. etc. etc....



    Take every promising, dynamic, growing industry in the U.S., and you will find little to no union presence.



    Take every deteriorating, decayed, moribund industry in the U.S., and you will find big, fat unions.



    Unfortunately, we need those industries as much, or more, than we need tech companies.
  • Reply 47 of 85
    So 'union awareness' is a CNET exclusive eh? What's will be their next exciting Apple Inc scoop - product placement training charts made with PowerPoint? How about the break schedules?
  • Reply 48 of 85
    macrulezmacrulez Posts: 2,455member
    deleted
  • Reply 49 of 85
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AjbDtc826 View Post


    Strong unions = strong economy. Notice how crappy our economy is? It's cus our unions are crappy. Workers spend money- not owners. Buy American. Support our neighbors and our own jobs.



    I agreed with you until you said buy American - and noticed it was posted on an Apple website, which is just as guilty of outsourcing overseas as anyone else.
  • Reply 50 of 85
    macrulezmacrulez Posts: 2,455member
    deleted
  • Reply 51 of 85
    unions.... a bit like communism. Sounds good, but does not really work in the long run.



    Good pay for shitty workers., Give the good post to the guy/girl with more seniority, not the person who is better. Choke the company if you don't get what you want.



    Get an education, work hard, be honest, you wont' need a union. You'll do fine.



    If a company mistreats you, screw them. Quit. Find one that treats you well.

    If a company does not pay you well enough, Quit. Find one that treats you well.
  • Reply 52 of 85
    ruel24ruel24 Posts: 432member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ivk View Post


    weekends

    all breaks at work, including your lunch breaks

    paid vacation

    fmla

    sick leave

    social security

    minimum wage

    civil rights act/title vii (prohibits employer discrimination)

    8-hour work day

    overtime pay

    child labor laws

    occupational safety & health act (osha)

    40 hour work week

    worker's compensation (worker's comp)

    unemployment insurance

    pensions

    workplace safety standards and regulations

    employer health care insurance

    collective bargaining rights for employees

    wrongful termination laws

    age discrimination in employment act of 1967

    whistleblower protection laws

    employee polygraph protect act (prohibits employer from using a lie detector test on an employee)

    veteran's employment and training services (vets)

    compensation increases and evaluations (raises)

    sexual harassment laws

    americans with disabilities act (ada)

    holiday pay

    employer dental, life, and vision insurance

    privacy rights

    pregnancy and parental leave

    military leave

    the right to strike

    public education for children

    equal pay acts of 1963 & 2011 (requires employers pay men and women equally for the same amount of work)

    laws ending sweatshops in the united states



    those evil unions! Look at all those horrible things they have fought for!



    amen!
  • Reply 53 of 85
    ruel24ruel24 Posts: 432member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Realistic View Post


    I'll give that all the problems you mentioned were real, whether they were or not. Please tell or preferably show me how the UAW solved JUST ONE of the problems that you mentioned? You can't because the UAW didn't solve any of them.



    You make unions merit and performanced based instead of all about longevity and seniority and I'll support unions.



    When did it become the UAW's job to solve GM, Ford, and Chrysler's problems? The job of the UAW is to obtain fair wages and benefits, as well as fair and ethical treatment of the member employees. That's it.



    When you can point out a company where pay raises and promotions was actually based on merit and performance, then I'll believe it. Instead, it's who you know and who's bottom you blow smoke up. I've yet to work for a company that people got ahead purely on merit and performance.



    It's like this: Say you the manager at UPS. Your job is to oversee employees loading trucks. You have 3 people under you belt. The first person is a sloth. He barely makes it to work on time, he an okay job sometimes, other times it's not stacked well, and he is slow at it. However, he's the nephew of another manager in another department and you're stuck with him. The second person is rank average. He's on time, loads the trucks fine. The third person is just heads above the others. He gets to work early and is at his station, ready to go at the starting time. He gets as much done as the other two combined.



    Now, you boss says there is a position that needs filled from within. You have to choose one of your guys to fill that position. Which one is it going to be? It's not going to be your main guy. You can't afford to lose him. The one that you'll pick will be the sloth, every time. You make him someone else's problem. This is equality? This is merit and performance based?



    This is why there is seniority in most unions. I say most unions, because in trade unions, there is no seniority preference. Until there is a quantifiable way to do it, it's all subject to the whims of someone and that will never be fair.
  • Reply 54 of 85
    ruel24ruel24 Posts: 432member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by See Flat View Post


    unions.... a bit like communism. Sounds good, but does not really work in the long run.



    Good pay for shitty workers., Give the good post to the guy/girl with more seniority, not the person who is better. Choke the company if you don't get what you want.



    Get an education, work hard, be honest, you wont' need a union. You'll do fine.



    If a company mistreats you, screw them. Quit. Find one that treats you well.

    If a company does not pay you well enough, Quit. Find one that treats you well.



    No, good pay for ALL workers. They do the same job, they get the same pay. It's up to management to get poorer performing workers to work harder. It's not the union's job.



    Choke the company? Buahahaha! It's called negotiations. It's the job of companies to negotiate contracts. They negotiate contracts will all sorts of parties, from supply chains to distribution chains, to retail outlets. If they can't negotiate a favorable contract with a group run by uneducated line workers, they're not going to last long with or without a union to deal with.



    You have to remember that not everyone has the same opportunity in life. People come from all sorts of backgrounds. You also have to remember there is only a certain amount of demand for each type of job. If everyone went to college to study business, the market would be flooded, business jobs' pay would plummet, and many would not end up there, anyway, due to the lack of demand for that type of work. You cannot just say blanket solutions like that. It simply doesn't work. There will always be a need for people doing other jobs, no matter if you educate the entire population or not.
  • Reply 55 of 85
    pendergastpendergast Posts: 1,358member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by IVK View Post


    Weekends

    All Breaks at Work, including your Lunch Breaks

    Paid Vacation

    FMLA

    Sick Leave

    Social Security

    Minimum Wage

    Civil Rights Act/Title VII (Prohibits Employer Discrimination)

    8-Hour Work Day

    Overtime Pay

    Child Labor Laws

    Occupational Safety & Health Act (OSHA)

    40 Hour Work Week

    Worker's Compensation (Worker's Comp)

    Unemployment Insurance

    Pensions

    Workplace Safety Standards and Regulations

    Employer Health Care Insurance

    Collective Bargaining Rights for Employees

    Wrongful Termination Laws

    Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967

    Whistleblower Protection Laws

    Employee Polygraph Protect Act (Prohibits Employer from using a lie detector test on an employee)

    Veteran's Employment and Training Services (VETS)

    Compensation increases and Evaluations (Raises)

    Sexual Harassment Laws

    Americans With Disabilities Act (ADA)

    Holiday Pay

    Employer Dental, Life, and Vision Insurance

    Privacy Rights

    Pregnancy and Parental Leave

    Military Leave

    The Right to Strike

    Public Education for Children

    Equal Pay Acts of 1963 & 2011 (Requires employers pay men and women equally for the same amount of work)

    Laws Ending Sweatshops in the United States



    Those evil unions! Look at all those horrible things they have fought for!



    Thanks for the history lesson. This has nothing to do with what Unions have done in the past. The majority of those things are now the law; what purpose do unions serve now? Business is already heavily-regulated. This isn't the early 20th century with sweatshops and horrible working conditions.
  • Reply 56 of 85
    ruel24ruel24 Posts: 432member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by geekdad View Post


    Very good points! The auto industry reminds me of RIM and Nokia. RIM/Nokia had all the business and all the market share but did not keep up with technology and what the public wanted. They did not innovate or match their competition. Instead keep churning out the same old designs and technology only to watch the industry change and they lost market share.



    And that's exactly what happened to Detroit. Prior to 1973, there was a healthy competititive spirit in Detroit. There was innovation. Then, it's like all 4 companies decided they no longer had to try. They put a facelift on the same technology, only to watch imports improve to the point they finally had to do something. But, it was too late. Imports already gained enough momentum that they couldn't be stopped. It was a train wreck in slow motion. Part of it was unforeseen changes around them. They couldn't have predicted the oil embargo. They weren't ready for it. But, in the end, it was mismanagement that aimed the companies right toward destruction.
  • Reply 57 of 85
    mytdavemytdave Posts: 447member
    Tell you what I'd do if I were running the show...



    I'd listen to the employees to see what the major issues are, and then I'd address any points that are reasonable. An example might be if some stores are expecting employees to work overtime but without paying overtime wages. Things like that can be clearly fixed. A company has (should have) incentive to have happy employees. Happy employees make a company successful and profitable.



    On the other hand, I would not allow any unions to materialize within my company. Employees are welcome to get together and socialize all they want. If they form themselves a union and try to make demands, I'd fire all their asses and give the jobs to people who actually want to work.
  • Reply 58 of 85
    pendergastpendergast Posts: 1,358member
    If you don't want to work there, find another job. If you don't like the work conditions, the pay, or the benefits, find another job. If some illegal practice is taking place, report it.



    A union for... retail? Seriously? Are there going to be fast food unions next?



    I have nothing against unions for skill positions, as teachers, nurses, steel workers, etc. are of limited supply and a valuable commodity. They've received expensive training and are hard to replace.



    Excluding specialists (like the Genius Bar), retail employees are a dime a dozen. I mean, how would a union like this even work? Are they going to *gasp* strike? You mean there aren't THOUSANDS of people who could easily do a job and are desperate for work. I bet many would even take less pay just to have a job.



    Unless you're in a skill position or really bring something to the table, just be thankful you have a job in this economy.
  • Reply 59 of 85
    ruel24ruel24 Posts: 432member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Pendergast View Post


    Thanks for the history lesson. This has nothing to do with what Unions have done in the past. The majority of those things are now the law; what purpose do unions serve now? Business is already heavily-regulated. This isn't the early 20th century with sweatshops and horrible working conditions.



    With unions slipping from power we're already seeing changes. It used to be that you worked 8 hr. days, and anything over that was overtime, and even doubletime. That was what the companies had to give up in return for you giving up more of your time. Now, that has changed to overtime after 40 hrs. and you can pretty much forget doubletime pay. It also used to be that Sat. and Sun. were reserved for family time. It was the weekend. The premium for working you on those days was, again, overtime for the first 8 hrs. on Sat. and doubletime after and on Sun. and holidays. Now, we have revolving shifts. Some shifts start on Tue. and go to Sat.. Some start Wed. and go to Sun.. Essentially, they've just robbed the workers of what was the established time with the family. Now, their time off isn't in sync with everyone else's time off, and there is no penalty for it.



    So, basically, people got a pay reduction and didn't even notice it happening. Think even more can't change? Wait until unions get even weaker. These wealthy companies have politicians in their pockets and there isn't a law that can't be changed and talk radio will even rationalize it for them to the hypnotized masses.
  • Reply 60 of 85
    pendergastpendergast Posts: 1,358member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mytdave View Post


    Tell you what I'd do if I were running the show...



    I'd listen to the employees to see what the major issues are, and then I'd address any points that are reasonable. An example might be if some stores are expecting employees to work overtime but without paying overtime wages. Things like that can be clearly fixed. A company has (should have) incentive to have happy employees. Happy employees make a company successful and profitable.



    On the other hand, I would not allow any unions to materialize within my company. Employees are welcome to get together and socialize all they want. If they form themselves a union and try to make demands, I'd fire all their asses and give the jobs to people who actually want to work.



    Even the example you gave is a non-issue (or should be) as that's already covered by government regulations. As is safety in the work place.



    Have you ever dealt with OSHA? Or any of the other government regulatory agencies that make life for a business owner very unfun? There's also minimum wage, meaning that the majority of benefits unions used to provide (to society) have been replicated by the government.
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