Apple rumored to be initiating 'union awareness' training for retail managers

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Comments

  • Reply 61 of 85
    paxmanpaxman Posts: 4,705member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by IVK View Post


    Weekends

    All Breaks at Work, including your Lunch Breaks

    Paid Vacation

    FMLA

    Sick Leave

    Social Security

    Minimum Wage

    Civil Rights Act/Title VII (Prohibits Employer Discrimination)

    8-Hour Work Day

    Overtime Pay

    Child Labor Laws

    Occupational Safety & Health Act (OSHA)

    40 Hour Work Week

    Worker's Compensation (Worker's Comp)

    Unemployment Insurance

    Pensions

    Workplace Safety Standards and Regulations

    Employer Health Care Insurance

    Collective Bargaining Rights for Employees

    Wrongful Termination Laws

    Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967

    Whistleblower Protection Laws

    Employee Polygraph Protect Act (Prohibits Employer from using a lie detector test on an employee)

    Veteran's Employment and Training Services (VETS)

    Compensation increases and Evaluations (Raises)

    Sexual Harassment Laws

    Americans With Disabilities Act (ADA)

    Holiday Pay

    Employer Dental, Life, and Vision Insurance

    Privacy Rights

    Pregnancy and Parental Leave

    Military Leave

    The Right to Strike

    Public Education for Children

    Equal Pay Acts of 1963 & 2011 (Requires employers pay men and women equally for the same amount of work)

    Laws Ending Sweatshops in the United States



    Those evil unions! Look at all those horrible things they have fought for!



    I have never understood the bias against unions. The principle (not always the reality, perhaps) is good, like national health care. If you agree that the primary purpose of a corporation is to make money for its investors and not to look after the welfare of its workers, then surely it makes perfect sense that the workers need representation and an organizing body (see list above). I know the two often clash but that doesn't mean either can do without the other.

    Looking at the increasing gap between the rich and the poor in most countries it would seem that Unions should be encouraged. I question anybody who feels workers should be squeezed beyond what they themselves wish to be squeezed in the name of corporate and investor profit.
  • Reply 62 of 85
    radarradar Posts: 271member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tru_canuk View Post


    If unionizing means much improved working conditions, fair wages and promotion based on merit / talent instead of seniority then I'm all for it.



    I'll second that.



    But how ironic that in "communist" China, where a lot of Apple assembly takes place likely to escape unions in the west, unions are basically in name only and follow whatever the government tells them to do. A real union on the factory floors for those Chinese workers would be a move towards a real leveling of the globalizations playing field.
  • Reply 63 of 85
    radarradar Posts: 271member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Pendergast View Post


    Thanks for the history lesson. This has nothing to do with what Unions have done in the past. The majority of those things are now the law; what purpose do unions serve now? Business is already heavily-regulated. This isn't the early 20th century with sweatshops and horrible working conditions.



    No offense, as a small businessman I know where you're coming from but this is nothing to do with government putting up more red tape to hinder small to medium sized businesses, and certainly not with allowing them to shift our laboring jobs overseas. If you have to ask 'what relevance do unions have now?', work in a fast food joint in NYC at minimum wage or on illegal commission in some call center or for migrant wages on a California asparagus farm. Better yet, take a factory job assembling anything you can think of in China or a host of other 'human rights respecting countries' like Saudi Arabia or North Korea - pulling 16 hour shifts with no bathroom breaks, your employer holding your passport, etc. etc. and tell me that unions are no longer required in the 21st century.



    One thing I did learn from history class was that it wasn't some nice CEO at the top or some benevolent government bigwig who ever gave anyone anything - these things were fought and paid for by our grandmothers and grandfathers in sackings, beatings, intimidation, blackballing, even killings. Another thing I learned was that if you allow history to repeat itself, it will happily oblige.
  • Reply 64 of 85
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ruel24 View Post


    Well, let me be the first to enlighten you...



    Their called trade unions and this is how they make companies more competitive: <snip>



    Trade Unions, aka "managed labor" or "managed professional workforce" or other forms of professional workgroups or temp agencies aren't what people are complaining about.



    People recognize the cancer that is the typical Labor Union of the 21 century and all the detrimental effects they've had on our economy.



    Labor Unions are not solely responsible for our economic woes as some people would want you to think, but they are a contributing factor.
  • Reply 65 of 85
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 9,233member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Radar View Post


    If you have to ask 'what relevance do unions have now?', work in a fast food joint in NYC at minimum wage or on illegal commission in some call center or for migrant wages on a California asparagus farm. Better yet, take a factory job assembling anything you can think of in China or a host of other 'human rights respecting countries' like Saudi Arabia or North Korea - pulling 16 hour shifts with no bathroom breaks, your employer holding your passport, etc. etc. and tell me that unions are no longer required in the 21st century.



    Your argument is not a very strong one. Burger flippers in McDonalds make at least $7.25 an hour. That is more than adequate compensation for the low skilled service that those workers provide. Migrant workers on a California farm should be paid exactly zero dollars, if they happen to be illegals, like many of them are. They have no right to work or be in this country and they shouldn't be getting paid anything.



    As for China, Saudi Arabia and North Korea, it seems like you are making a case for unions being needed in those countries. That has nothing to do with unions in the US.
  • Reply 66 of 85
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by IVK View Post


    Weekends

    All Breaks at Work, including your Lunch Breaks

    Paid Vacation

    FMLA

    Sick Leave

    Social Security

    Minimum Wage

    Civil Rights Act/Title VII (Prohibits Employer Discrimination)

    8-Hour Work Day

    Overtime Pay

    Child Labor Laws

    Occupational Safety & Health Act (OSHA)

    40 Hour Work Week

    Worker's Compensation (Worker's Comp)

    Unemployment Insurance

    Pensions

    Workplace Safety Standards and Regulations

    Employer Health Care Insurance

    Collective Bargaining Rights for Employees

    Wrongful Termination Laws

    Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967

    Whistleblower Protection Laws

    Employee Polygraph Protect Act (Prohibits Employer from using a lie detector test on an employee)

    Veteran's Employment and Training Services (VETS)

    Compensation increases and Evaluations (Raises)

    Sexual Harassment Laws

    Americans With Disabilities Act (ADA)

    Holiday Pay

    Employer Dental, Life, and Vision Insurance

    Privacy Rights

    Pregnancy and Parental Leave

    Military Leave

    The Right to Strike

    Public Education for Children

    Equal Pay Acts of 1963 & 2011 (Requires employers pay men and women equally for the same amount of work)

    Laws Ending Sweatshops in the United States



    Those evil unions! Look at all those horrible things they have fought for!



    Yes, some of those things are good... Let's see which ones have been unmitigated disasters, shall we? Ah yes, that would include:



    * Social Security (a pyramid scheme set to bankrupt the nation)

    * Minimum Wage (it's needed, but implementation needs serious help)

    * OSHA (tyrannical and ridiculous)

    * Worker's Comp (again, it's needed, but current system is broken)

    * Pensions (can you say bankrupt?)

    * Collective Bargaining Rights (collective bargaining is a function of being part of a union, it isn't a "right", and no longer needed as laws now govern the points of collective bargaining.)

    * Sexual Harassment Laws (out of control - "you looked at my G-string poking above my itty bitty mini skirt! You pervert! Harassment!!")

    * ADA (again, needed, but implementation is broken - why does Walmart need 20 empty parking stalls right up front?)

    * Holiday Pay (nice perk, but exactly why should anyone expect to get paid when they're not working?)

    * The Right to Strike (how is it a 'right'? I don't see that in the Constitution. If employees decide to strike, then they risk losing their jobs if the company doesn't cave, and that's just how life works)

    * Public Education for Children (sure, our public schools are in such great shape... I don't know if you can give credit to unions for public ed... But, okay, education is important for sure, but it's broken. It's broken at the administrative level but it's also broken at the classroom level because you can't fire bad teachers because of the damn unions)

    * There are other things you cite that I'm not sure you can give credit to the unions for.



    Labor Unions of the past had some positive influence on the workforce of America. Those same organizations however are now corrupt and dangerous. It is not the same, and you can no longer compare them to years gone by. Unions haven't given this country anything good for at least 20 years, maybe 30. I've been around for more than 30 years, and I've been able to witness the descent. And it's not getting better.
  • Reply 67 of 85
    anonymouseanonymouse Posts: 6,681member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post


    Your argument is not a very strong one. Burger flippers in McDonalds make at least $7.25 an hour. That is more than adequate compensation for the low skilled service that those workers provide. ...



    Uhm, that's minimum wage. I invite you to live on minimum wage for a year or 2 and then get back to us on how "adequate" it is.
  • Reply 68 of 85
    conrailconrail Posts: 489member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Pendergast View Post


    Thanks for the history lesson. This has nothing to do with what Unions have done in the past. The majority of those things are now the law; what purpose do unions serve now? Business is already heavily-regulated. This isn't the early 20th century with sweatshops and horrible working conditions.



    Get rid of unions and watch at least a third of those things disappear within 5 years.
  • Reply 69 of 85
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 9,233member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post


    Uhm, that's minimum wage. I invite you to live on minimum wage for a year or 2 and then get back to us on how "adequate" it is.



    Yes, I am fully aware that it's the minimum wage. It's higher now than it was just a few years ago.



    And I have no intention of getting any job at any McDonald's, I'm not a high school kid looking to flip burgers. For them, $7.25 is just fine.
  • Reply 70 of 85
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 9,233member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Conrail View Post


    Get rid of unions and watch at least a third of those things disappear within 5 years.



    Some of those things should disappear, the system is broken and certain union workers have too much protection, which comes at the expense of children, education, business and the economy.
  • Reply 71 of 85
    hill60hill60 Posts: 6,992member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Pendergast View Post


    If you don't want to work there, find another job. If you don't like the work conditions, the pay, or the benefits, find another job. If some illegal practice is taking place, report it.



    A union for... retail? Seriously? Are there going to be fast food unions next?



    I have nothing against unions for skill positions, as teachers, nurses, steel workers, etc. are of limited supply and a valuable commodity. They've received expensive training and are hard to replace.



    Excluding specialists (like the Genius Bar), retail employees are a dime a dozen. I mean, how would a union like this even work? Are they going to *gasp* strike? You mean there aren't THOUSANDS of people who could easily do a job and are desperate for work. I bet many would even take less pay just to have a job.



    Unless you're in a skill position or really bring something to the table, just be thankful you have a job in this economy.





    People have rights, you have to respect that, it's L-A-W law.
  • Reply 72 of 85
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AjbDtc826 View Post


    Strong unions = strong economy. Notice how crappy our economy is? It's cus our unions are crappy. Workers spend money- not owners. Buy American. Support our neighbors and our own jobs.



    http://www.nrtw.org/free-tagging/eco...its-right-work



    Looks like the reverse is true.



    I also think it just doesn't work conceptually. Take this hypothetical example.



    If all carpentry is covered by an union, that will mean higher wages which will mean higher costs. Given the laws of supply and demand, that will mean less work for carpentry and less carpenters.



    So there will be a number of people who would have been carpenters but now have to do something else. Looks like that makes everyone poorer.
  • Reply 73 of 85
    kpomkpom Posts: 656member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AjbDtc826 View Post


    So how's 2011 treating the 99%? Oh that's right...



    Actually, pretty well.



    By and large, unions are strongest in this country in the public sector. Naturally, the public sector is facing large seemingly insurmountable deficits that the "53%" (i.e. those of us who pay taxes) will wind up having to pay.
  • Reply 74 of 85
    paxmanpaxman Posts: 4,705member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mytdave View Post


    Yes, some of those things are good... Let's see which ones have been unmitigated disasters, shall we? Ah yes, that would include:



    * Social Security (a pyramid scheme set to bankrupt the nation)

    * Minimum Wage (it's needed, but implementation needs serious help)

    * OSHA (tyrannical and ridiculous)

    * Worker's Comp (again, it's needed, but current system is broken)

    * Pensions (can you say bankrupt?)

    * Collective Bargaining Rights (collective bargaining is a function of being part of a union, it isn't a "right", and no longer needed as laws now govern the points of collective bargaining.)

    * Sexual Harassment Laws (out of control - "you looked at my G-string poking above my itty bitty mini skirt! You pervert! Harassment!!")

    * ADA (again, needed, but implementation is broken - why does Walmart need 20 empty parking stalls right up front?)

    * Holiday Pay (nice perk, but exactly why should anyone expect to get paid when they're not working?)

    * The Right to Strike (how is it a 'right'? I don't see that in the Constitution. If employees decide to strike, then they risk losing their jobs if the company doesn't cave, and that's just how life works)

    * Public Education for Children (sure, our public schools are in such great shape... I don't know if you can give credit to unions for public ed... But, okay, education is important for sure, but it's broken. It's broken at the administrative level but it's also broken at the classroom level because you can't fire bad teachers because of the damn unions)

    * There are other things you cite that I'm not sure you can give credit to the unions for.



    Labor Unions of the past had some positive influence on the workforce of America. Those same organizations however are now corrupt and dangerous. It is not the same, and you can no longer compare them to years gone by. Unions haven't given this country anything good for at least 20 years, maybe 30. I've been around for more than 30 years, and I've been able to witness the descent. And it's not getting better.



    And where would you be in terms of the nation's work force?
  • Reply 75 of 85
    bwikbwik Posts: 564member
    Unions are anathema to everything Apple stands for. If people want an incredibly powerless company (that can't hire/fire based on merit, that can't control its expenses) that would not be Apple -- it would be a far less successful company.



    Predictably, unionists (and trial lawyers) approach successful businesses with hands outstretched precisely because they have destroyed their earlier hosts, and need to feed on new hosts in order to continue living.
  • Reply 76 of 85
    shadashshadash Posts: 470member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mytdave View Post


    Tell you what I'd do if I were running the show...



    On the other hand, I would not allow any unions to materialize within my company. Employees are welcome to get together and socialize all they want. If they form themselves a union and try to make demands, I'd fire all their asses and give the jobs to people who actually want to work.



    Then you'd be breaking the law.
  • Reply 77 of 85
    dasanman69dasanman69 Posts: 13,001member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hvance View Post


    If unions come to Apple you can kiss the retail business goodbye. I for one will never enter another Apple store. I will mail order my Apple products. No union has EVER made a company more productive, competitive or innovative.



    ATT is union, you gonna stop doing business with them too?
  • Reply 78 of 85
    dasanman69dasanman69 Posts: 13,001member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bwik View Post


    Unions are anathema to everything Apple stands for. If people want an incredibly powerless company (that can't hire/fire based on merit, that can't control its expenses) that would not be Apple -- it would be a far less successful company.



    Predictably, unionists (and trial lawyers) approach successful businesses with hands outstretched precisely because they have destroyed their earlier hosts, and need to feed on new hosts in order to continue living.



    Name one company unions have destroyed and dont choose the ones with inept management .
  • Reply 79 of 85
    I?d like to see you work in a late 19th/early 20th century coal mine. Unions came about because of dismally low wages and poor working conditions in such places. Take the politics and lobbying out of modern unions and they may be of greater value once again...
  • Reply 80 of 85
    dasanman69dasanman69 Posts: 13,001member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post


    Many big unions are scum and they use thuggish tactics and violence to try and get their way. They're against secret ballots for workers, that's pretty undemocratic and they're basically a legalized version of the mob. They're all about grabbing as much money as they can for themselves, regardless of the consequences.



    Steve Jobs was particularly against the teacher's unions and spoke about how they were destroying the educational system in the US.



    This isn't the 1800's, screw the unions, especially ones whose members wear ugly purple shirts and whose members march around like a bunch of braindead zombies on speed, assaulting people and often resorting to violence, because they are a savage bunch of fascist lowlifes. They are downright anti-American.



    And companies dont use thuggish tactics on employees that even consider unionizing?
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