This is probably the wrong forum for it, but the genie is out of the bottle ...
Much emphasis has been placed on the *mere* 50 new jobs introduced by Apple by building this server farm. In reality, a facility of that size cannot be operated by 50 people. Others have been moved there to help run the joint. Presumably, they are not transients and have become full-time, tax-paying residents and consumers. That cannot be a bad thing?
I'm willing to bet that a number of construction workers did come through as *transients* while building the facility. That must have brought at least a short term boost to the local economy?
Unless you understand NC corporate laws and my particular situation, you don't know jack about my reasons for not being "specific" with our business venture. We're married...'nuff said.
And unless I see some data to back up the 50% claim, it doesn't wash. I can read his statement, but there is no fact there. I have read 50% off local taxes. Not 50% for state.
Where's the data to back it up?
So, calling me greedy, idiot, uneducated... Adjective...sure. euphemism for name calling. Right....I get it.....
It's OK for you to make claims about what is and is not ACTUALLY happening there - based on what YOU read in a newspaper published in another state, which based it's findings on speculation - and then you take umbrage for someone presenting facts (thanks jragosta btw for the analysis) that are actually on the table which by the way only barely touched on the fact that you have scheduled another 500,000 sq ft expansion, which will impact local/county/state construction workers as a job site, you have, in addition to the "50" jobs added locally among a population which seems to have no technical background whatsoever (this based of course on that article you seem to like so well) an additional population to pay more property taxes, buy more local goods and services.
I know your state and local tax system because my current company has facilities in NC. jragosta nailed it - you are OCD'd on the discount rather than the money actually being paid by Apple to be there in the first place. You refuse to accept the obvious - that there is a net gain by Apple being there - including upgrades and improvements over time to local infrastructure, regardless of the tax discount. And the people you should be bitching to are your local and state politicos, not an Apple fan blog. Perhaps this is why your company only employs 45 people, you have no clue how things work outside your own little set of preconceived notions. I have created and sold two businesses of your size or larger in my 50 some years of experience, between stints at Fortune 50 companies. Get off your high horse and look at the whole picture. Your analysis is fundamentally flawed, you demand that your comments be accepted at face value when you casually dismiss facts in evidence. Just. Stop.
This is probably the wrong forum for it, but the genie is out of the bottle ...
Much emphasis has been placed on the *mere* 50 new jobs introduced by Apple by building this server farm. In reality, a facility of that size cannot be operated by 50 people. Others have been moved there to help run the joint. Presumably, they are not transients and have become full-time, tax-paying residents and consumers. That cannot be a bad thing?
I'm willing to bet that a number of construction workers did come through as *transients* while building the facility. That must have brought at least a short term boost to the local economy?
The recent report said 50 direct hires and 250 indirect hires. Presumably, the 50 employees are the people who actually run the data center. The 250 would be contractors who provide security, landscaping, and site maintenance.
One report I read said that the number could go substantially higher - up to 3,000 jobs in a couple of decades. I believe that's not likely, but 300 also seems a bit low. The actual number is probably somewhere in between.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrayeyes
Unless you understand NC corporate laws and my particular situation, you don't know jack about my reasons for not being "specific" with our business venture. We're married...'nuff said.
And unless I see some data to back up the 50% claim, it doesn't wash. I can read his statement, but there is no fact there. I have read 50% off local taxes. Not 50% for state.
Where's the data to back it up?
So, calling me greedy, idiot, uneducated... Adjective...sure. euphemism for name calling. Right....I get it.....
It's OK for you to make claims about what is and is not ACTUALLY happening there - based on what YOU read in a newspaper published in another state, which based it's findings on speculation - and then you take umbrage for someone presenting facts (thanks jragosta btw for the analysis) that are actually on the table which by the way only barely touched on the fact that you have scheduled another 500,000 sq ft expansion, which will impact local/county/state construction workers as a job site, you have, in addition to the "50" jobs added locally among a population which seems to have no technical background whatsoever (this based of course on that article you seem to like so well) an additional population to pay more property taxes, buy more local goods and services.
I know your state and local tax system because my current company has facilities in NC. jragosta nailed it - you are OCD'd on the discount rather than the money actually being paid by Apple to be there in the first place. You refuse to accept the obvious - that there is a net gain by Apple being there - including upgrades and improvements over time to local infrastructure, regardless of the tax discount. And the people you should be bitching to are your local and state politicos, not an Apple fan blog. Perhaps this is why your company only employs 45 people, you have no clue how things work outside your own little set of preconceived notions. I have created and sold two businesses of your size or larger in my 50 some years of experience, between stints at Fortune 50 companies. Get off your high horse and look at the whole picture. Your analysis is fundamentally flawed, you demand that your comments be accepted at face value when you casually dismiss facts in evidence. Just. Stop.
I am not OCD'd on the discount. Again, that is for local taxes. jragosta quoted the same article I did about the incentives! Once again---I am PO'd that the one of the richest companies in the world is given a complete state tax break of 46 million dollars over ten years! Granted, Maiden will get a bit of extra dough for the discounted local taxes...good for them.
I will guote the same data that jragosta used in the article he obtained his FACTS from:
"The North Carolina legislature amended its corporate income tax law in order to offer Apple tax breaks of up to $46 million over the next 10 years to build its data center in the state. According to the report, local authorities have discounted property taxes by 50 percent and personal taxes by 85 percent. In exchange, Apple has created 50 full-time jobs and is also expected to create 250 "indirect contracting jobs.""
Meanwhile, our business will go on to pay our usual inflated taxes so Apple can get their precious break. And what the heck does our employee base have anything to do with the growth or measure of our business?
I can't believe the level you guys have berated me, all because I'm not stuck up Apple's butt! But, really I can't blame them for taking advantage of the idiocy of our state. If you think I'm the only one upset by the trend of incentives, you will find many upset North Carolinian's concerning the recent Chiquita deal....
Weather isn't the only reason they are interested in the PNW - just like NC benefits from cheap TVA hydro power, the PNW benefits from cheap hydro from the Columbia basin dams: http://www.usbr.gov/projects/Project...+Basin+Project
The same dams that helped us win WWII by powering the Aluminum industry for aircraft, powered our first nuclear reactors and provide abundant renewable electricity today as well.
tax breaks? Corporate welfare. Should not be allowed.
Yes, because heaven forbid a municipality weighs all factors for a deal instead of just those that make juicy soundbites!
The dumbing down of this country and polarization along "easily digestible but totally missing the big picture" soundbites and blog posts is just unbelievable
The state of NC handed out over 46 million dollars in tax incentives
If Apple didn't come, what exactly would they have?
Quote:
to one of the richest companies in the world
Other than furthering class-warfare populist rhetoric, what does this have to do with anything?
Quote:
for basically 50 jobs
I suppose by throwing out the "richest company" line you expect them to single handedly rescue the economy of NC?
Quote:
and not even local ones at that.
What the heck does that mean? They are flying them in daily from CA and then whisking them back at night?
Quote:
Let's say those 50 people buy 50 homes locally...which probably didn't happen. I guarantee most of them ended up in Charlotte. It's still in NC, fair enough. But, how 'bout if we had just given those 50 people $300,000 for new homes and they just immediately forked it over to the local economy in the way of builders, existing homes, etc. $1.5 million. Hmmmm, a bit better deal for us taxpayers. $1.5 mil vs $46 mil
Huh? Where the hell are you getting this money from? No Apple, no $$. Zero times a number is still Zero. Basic math.
Quote:
Oh, so they buy goods locally too? Wow, I hope they spend over $315 mil over the next ten years so we can recoup our sales tax!
Or no apple you can recoup zero against whatever imaginary numbers you wish
Quote:
So, excuse me if I don't welcome this multibillion dollar industry that COSTS us taxpayers of NC
Please detail, specifically and without platitudes or generalizations, how Apple is COSTING NC taxpayers.
Please.
I'm waiting with baited breath. Dazzle us with your fiduciary brilliance.
Quote:
I have an iPhone and I have Apple stock, but it still doesn't make me an Apple corporate lover....
Aha - the truth comes out. Corporations = evil.
Sigh... How the hell have we forgotten what has built this country and made us great? Unbelievable...
What about my husband's business? Where are HIS tax breaks?
When he generates the *new* revenue that Apple does, he can negotiate the same kind of deal.
This isn't a foreign concept or special treatment for Apple. Do you get better deals as a new or existing cable customer? Phone? Magazine? Just about any good or service?
Quote:
The citizens of NC are out $46 million dollars
What would they be out if Apple never came?
Hint: Way more than $46 million.
Quote:
with little to show for it.
Yup - little to show for it except revenue they wouldn't otherwise have at all.
Quote:
Why not give some incentives to small businesses to come here?
Why would small businesses come? What business would they be able to do? You could give me zero taxes for the next decade, but if I want to run a bookstore in a town that can't support it that "incentive" does little for me.
Focusing only on tax breaks is pretty silly - there are way more factors involved than just one metric.
Your like people claiming the iPad will fail due to the screen size or any one other feature while ignoring the package as a whole.
Quote:
Why give the tax breaks to one of the richest companies in the WORLD?
Aha - again we come to the real root of the issue - "fair"
In what way does Apple's "richness" have to do with the overall economic viability of the deal?
Why stop at tax breaks? Heck, their so successful they should have to pay an extra success tax! Why not? They are the richest company in the world! It's not fair!
Ugh....
Quote:
I couldn't give a rat's a** about the 50 jobs, but the $46 mil tax break get's the best of me.
Yup, focusing on only one aspect and blindly ignoring the rest of the factors. No wonder your driving yourself crazy. Irrationality will do that
Quote:
It simply isn't fair when we break our backs to pay our fair share.
So you would rather NC receive nothing? Because NC wasn't the only state vying for Apple's business.
Meanwhile, our business will go on to pay our usual inflated taxes so Apple can get their precious break.
How much more would your taxes be "inflated" without the additional revenue Apple brought?
Apple didn't cause your taxes to be "inflated" - overspending by your politicians did. No wonder you are continually confused and angry - you don't know who to hold accountable!
Quote:
And what the heck does our employee base have anything to do with the growth or measure of our business?
Demonstrating the scale of deals that can be made?
Quote:
I can't believe the level you guys have berated me, all because I'm not stuck up Apple's butt!
Your being berated because you are stubbornly not looking at the big picture due to your myopic focus on one tiny aspect of the deal while refusing to acknowledge there is more to the story. Apple is really just tangental, but fundamentally not what is at issue.
Your complete lack of fundamental economics is what is at issue.
Quote:
But, really I can't blame them for taking advantage of the idiocy of our state.
So you think your state would be better off with Zero additional income?
You always manage to avoid acknowledging or answering this question.
Quote:
If you think I'm the only one upset by the trend of incentives, you will find many upset North Carolinian's concerning the recent Chiquita deal....
Unbelievable... Multiply any number by zero and you still have ZERO
Really, what is so hard to understand about that concept?
And just like any number multiplied by zero is still zero, multiple clueless people being upset about concepts they don't understand are just as irrelevant as a single clueless person. Actually, this is one case where it can be a negative instead of neutral - if a large number of said clueless people start voting and enacting their misconceptions
At least we can guess that they won't be building a solar center in NC.
What does that mean? Apple is supposed to build a solar center in NC. Are you suggesting that they won't in Prineville? Would that be because Prineville is in Oregon?
Unfortunately, a lot of people have a simplistic and naive idea of what Oregon is like. While western Oregon (where I live) is fairly wet (though no wetter than, say, much of Georgia), central Oregon is mostly high desert--Prineville is a bit over 2600 ft. Prineville's average annual precipitation is 10 inches. It has an average of 300 sunny days per year. Central Oregon lies in the rain shadow of the Cascades, which include peaks over 10,000 ft. (Santiam pass, which I went over going from Eugene to Redmond--near Prineville--is over 4800 ft. Eugene is around 400 ft. When I went over the pass in mid-May, it was snowing.)
That's what it looks like looking west at Culver, a bit north of Redmond and Prineville. Notice the snow on the mountains. This was taken May 22.
This was the day before from Redmond, with a longer focal length. Those peaks are at about 10,000 ft.
Comments
Much emphasis has been placed on the *mere* 50 new jobs introduced by Apple by building this server farm. In reality, a facility of that size cannot be operated by 50 people. Others have been moved there to help run the joint. Presumably, they are not transients and have become full-time, tax-paying residents and consumers. That cannot be a bad thing?
I'm willing to bet that a number of construction workers did come through as *transients* while building the facility. That must have brought at least a short term boost to the local economy?
Unless you understand NC corporate laws and my particular situation, you don't know jack about my reasons for not being "specific" with our business venture. We're married...'nuff said.
And unless I see some data to back up the 50% claim, it doesn't wash. I can read his statement, but there is no fact there. I have read 50% off local taxes. Not 50% for state.
Where's the data to back it up?
So, calling me greedy, idiot, uneducated... Adjective...sure. euphemism for name calling. Right....I get it.....
It's OK for you to make claims about what is and is not ACTUALLY happening there - based on what YOU read in a newspaper published in another state, which based it's findings on speculation - and then you take umbrage for someone presenting facts (thanks jragosta btw for the analysis) that are actually on the table which by the way only barely touched on the fact that you have scheduled another 500,000 sq ft expansion, which will impact local/county/state construction workers as a job site, you have, in addition to the "50" jobs added locally among a population which seems to have no technical background whatsoever (this based of course on that article you seem to like so well) an additional population to pay more property taxes, buy more local goods and services.
I know your state and local tax system because my current company has facilities in NC. jragosta nailed it - you are OCD'd on the discount rather than the money actually being paid by Apple to be there in the first place. You refuse to accept the obvious - that there is a net gain by Apple being there - including upgrades and improvements over time to local infrastructure, regardless of the tax discount. And the people you should be bitching to are your local and state politicos, not an Apple fan blog. Perhaps this is why your company only employs 45 people, you have no clue how things work outside your own little set of preconceived notions. I have created and sold two businesses of your size or larger in my 50 some years of experience, between stints at Fortune 50 companies. Get off your high horse and look at the whole picture. Your analysis is fundamentally flawed, you demand that your comments be accepted at face value when you casually dismiss facts in evidence. Just. Stop.
This is probably the wrong forum for it, but the genie is out of the bottle ...
Much emphasis has been placed on the *mere* 50 new jobs introduced by Apple by building this server farm. In reality, a facility of that size cannot be operated by 50 people. Others have been moved there to help run the joint. Presumably, they are not transients and have become full-time, tax-paying residents and consumers. That cannot be a bad thing?
I'm willing to bet that a number of construction workers did come through as *transients* while building the facility. That must have brought at least a short term boost to the local economy?
The recent report said 50 direct hires and 250 indirect hires. Presumably, the 50 employees are the people who actually run the data center. The 250 would be contractors who provide security, landscaping, and site maintenance.
One report I read said that the number could go substantially higher - up to 3,000 jobs in a couple of decades. I believe that's not likely, but 300 also seems a bit low. The actual number is probably somewhere in between.
Unless you understand NC corporate laws and my particular situation, you don't know jack about my reasons for not being "specific" with our business venture. We're married...'nuff said.
And unless I see some data to back up the 50% claim, it doesn't wash. I can read his statement, but there is no fact there. I have read 50% off local taxes. Not 50% for state.
Where's the data to back it up?
So, calling me greedy, idiot, uneducated... Adjective...sure. euphemism for name calling. Right....I get it.....
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...rver_farm.html
50% reduction in property tax and 85% in personal taxes. The overwhelming majority would be property taxes.
Your apology is accepted. And, yes, that's mostly local. Apple doesn't owe the state any taxes, so there's no point in a credit there.
It's OK for you to make claims about what is and is not ACTUALLY happening there - based on what YOU read in a newspaper published in another state, which based it's findings on speculation - and then you take umbrage for someone presenting facts (thanks jragosta btw for the analysis) that are actually on the table which by the way only barely touched on the fact that you have scheduled another 500,000 sq ft expansion, which will impact local/county/state construction workers as a job site, you have, in addition to the "50" jobs added locally among a population which seems to have no technical background whatsoever (this based of course on that article you seem to like so well) an additional population to pay more property taxes, buy more local goods and services.
I know your state and local tax system because my current company has facilities in NC. jragosta nailed it - you are OCD'd on the discount rather than the money actually being paid by Apple to be there in the first place. You refuse to accept the obvious - that there is a net gain by Apple being there - including upgrades and improvements over time to local infrastructure, regardless of the tax discount. And the people you should be bitching to are your local and state politicos, not an Apple fan blog. Perhaps this is why your company only employs 45 people, you have no clue how things work outside your own little set of preconceived notions. I have created and sold two businesses of your size or larger in my 50 some years of experience, between stints at Fortune 50 companies. Get off your high horse and look at the whole picture. Your analysis is fundamentally flawed, you demand that your comments be accepted at face value when you casually dismiss facts in evidence. Just. Stop.
I am not OCD'd on the discount. Again, that is for local taxes. jragosta quoted the same article I did about the incentives! Once again---I am PO'd that the one of the richest companies in the world is given a complete state tax break of 46 million dollars over ten years! Granted, Maiden will get a bit of extra dough for the discounted local taxes...good for them.
I will guote the same data that jragosta used in the article he obtained his FACTS from:
"The North Carolina legislature amended its corporate income tax law in order to offer Apple tax breaks of up to $46 million over the next 10 years to build its data center in the state. According to the report, local authorities have discounted property taxes by 50 percent and personal taxes by 85 percent. In exchange, Apple has created 50 full-time jobs and is also expected to create 250 "indirect contracting jobs.""
Meanwhile, our business will go on to pay our usual inflated taxes so Apple can get their precious break. And what the heck does our employee base have anything to do with the growth or measure of our business?
I can't believe the level you guys have berated me, all because I'm not stuck up Apple's butt! But, really I can't blame them for taking advantage of the idiocy of our state. If you think I'm the only one upset by the trend of incentives, you will find many upset North Carolinian's concerning the recent Chiquita deal....
The same dams that helped us win WWII by powering the Aluminum industry for aircraft, powered our first nuclear reactors and provide abundant renewable electricity today as well.
tax breaks? Corporate welfare. Should not be allowed.
Yes, because heaven forbid a municipality weighs all factors for a deal instead of just those that make juicy soundbites!
The dumbing down of this country and polarization along "easily digestible but totally missing the big picture" soundbites and blog posts is just unbelievable
With our economy in shambles, these private companies are out to use extreme measures to try and avoid paying taxes.
Yup, because taxes are the only thing that matters...
So much for being corporate citizens.
So much for being an informed and contributing citizen
Critical thinking is such a lost skill...
"Buy American." Yeah, okay buddy.
Sigh... would have rather they built in in India instead?
The state of NC handed out over 46 million dollars in tax incentives
If Apple didn't come, what exactly would they have?
to one of the richest companies in the world
Other than furthering class-warfare populist rhetoric, what does this have to do with anything?
for basically 50 jobs
I suppose by throwing out the "richest company" line you expect them to single handedly rescue the economy of NC?
and not even local ones at that.
What the heck does that mean? They are flying them in daily from CA and then whisking them back at night?
Let's say those 50 people buy 50 homes locally...which probably didn't happen. I guarantee most of them ended up in Charlotte. It's still in NC, fair enough. But, how 'bout if we had just given those 50 people $300,000 for new homes and they just immediately forked it over to the local economy in the way of builders, existing homes, etc. $1.5 million. Hmmmm, a bit better deal for us taxpayers. $1.5 mil vs $46 mil
Huh? Where the hell are you getting this money from? No Apple, no $$. Zero times a number is still Zero. Basic math.
Oh, so they buy goods locally too? Wow, I hope they spend over $315 mil over the next ten years so we can recoup our sales tax!
Or no apple you can recoup zero against whatever imaginary numbers you wish
So, excuse me if I don't welcome this multibillion dollar industry that COSTS us taxpayers of NC
Please detail, specifically and without platitudes or generalizations, how Apple is COSTING NC taxpayers.
Please.
I'm waiting with baited breath. Dazzle us with your fiduciary brilliance.
I have an iPhone and I have Apple stock, but it still doesn't make me an Apple corporate lover....
Aha - the truth comes out. Corporations = evil.
Sigh... How the hell have we forgotten what has built this country and made us great? Unbelievable...
What about my husband's business? Where are HIS tax breaks?
When he generates the *new* revenue that Apple does, he can negotiate the same kind of deal.
This isn't a foreign concept or special treatment for Apple. Do you get better deals as a new or existing cable customer? Phone? Magazine? Just about any good or service?
The citizens of NC are out $46 million dollars
What would they be out if Apple never came?
Hint: Way more than $46 million.
with little to show for it.
Yup - little to show for it except revenue they wouldn't otherwise have at all.
Why not give some incentives to small businesses to come here?
Why would small businesses come? What business would they be able to do? You could give me zero taxes for the next decade, but if I want to run a bookstore in a town that can't support it that "incentive" does little for me.
Focusing only on tax breaks is pretty silly - there are way more factors involved than just one metric.
Your like people claiming the iPad will fail due to the screen size or any one other feature while ignoring the package as a whole.
Why give the tax breaks to one of the richest companies in the WORLD?
Aha - again we come to the real root of the issue - "fair"
In what way does Apple's "richness" have to do with the overall economic viability of the deal?
Why stop at tax breaks? Heck, their so successful they should have to pay an extra success tax! Why not? They are the richest company in the world! It's not fair!
Ugh....
I couldn't give a rat's a** about the 50 jobs, but the $46 mil tax break get's the best of me.
Yup, focusing on only one aspect and blindly ignoring the rest of the factors. No wonder your driving yourself crazy. Irrationality will do that
It simply isn't fair when we break our backs to pay our fair share.
So you would rather NC receive nothing? Because NC wasn't the only state vying for Apple's business.
Meanwhile, our business will go on to pay our usual inflated taxes so Apple can get their precious break.
How much more would your taxes be "inflated" without the additional revenue Apple brought?
Apple didn't cause your taxes to be "inflated" - overspending by your politicians did. No wonder you are continually confused and angry - you don't know who to hold accountable!
And what the heck does our employee base have anything to do with the growth or measure of our business?
Demonstrating the scale of deals that can be made?
I can't believe the level you guys have berated me, all because I'm not stuck up Apple's butt!
Your being berated because you are stubbornly not looking at the big picture due to your myopic focus on one tiny aspect of the deal while refusing to acknowledge there is more to the story. Apple is really just tangental, but fundamentally not what is at issue.
Your complete lack of fundamental economics is what is at issue.
But, really I can't blame them for taking advantage of the idiocy of our state.
So you think your state would be better off with Zero additional income?
You always manage to avoid acknowledging or answering this question.
If you think I'm the only one upset by the trend of incentives, you will find many upset North Carolinian's concerning the recent Chiquita deal....
You mean this one?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/busine...y8N_story.html
Yup, NC is getting screwed on that one too
Unbelievable... Multiply any number by zero and you still have ZERO
Really, what is so hard to understand about that concept?
And just like any number multiplied by zero is still zero, multiple clueless people being upset about concepts they don't understand are just as irrelevant as a single clueless person. Actually, this is one case where it can be a negative instead of neutral - if a large number of said clueless people start voting and enacting their misconceptions
At least we can guess that they won't be building a solar center in NC.
What does that mean? Apple is supposed to build a solar center in NC. Are you suggesting that they won't in Prineville? Would that be because Prineville is in Oregon?
Unfortunately, a lot of people have a simplistic and naive idea of what Oregon is like. While western Oregon (where I live) is fairly wet (though no wetter than, say, much of Georgia), central Oregon is mostly high desert--Prineville is a bit over 2600 ft. Prineville's average annual precipitation is 10 inches. It has an average of 300 sunny days per year. Central Oregon lies in the rain shadow of the Cascades, which include peaks over 10,000 ft. (Santiam pass, which I went over going from Eugene to Redmond--near Prineville--is over 4800 ft. Eugene is around 400 ft. When I went over the pass in mid-May, it was snowing.)
That's what it looks like looking west at Culver, a bit north of Redmond and Prineville. Notice the snow on the mountains. This was taken May 22.
This was the day before from Redmond, with a longer focal length. Those peaks are at about 10,000 ft.