So, this is one of the guys who do all they can to take away user serviceability from Apple products, so they can hope to charge premium prices for everything
That is actually a really good point.
For example, the first white iBooks had a horrible design from a service standpoint. You had to spend an hour taking the thing apart just to swap out the hard drive, something that should be a routine task. That time ends up being money lost by the company (possibly money gained if out of warranty).
We can look at the more recent MacBooks as an example of how Apple corrected that particular problem but their designs were clearly not perfect.
For disclosure as to where my opinions are coming from, I'm a Brit, living in the UK.
Basically, the British are an inventive people, but have not always been very good at understanding the difference between being an inventor and being an engineer. It was assumed that whoever invented or designed a product would be able to make the whole thing into a product, and we missed the boat when other countries (notably Germany with cars) figured out that once someone had designed the look of a car, someone else was needed to make it reliable, so in that sense, we didn't engineer cars to be reliable in the way the Germans did.
Effectively we allowed one key player in a design to hold sway over everything, so the thing never worked as a whole. So it wasn't just we made good looking cars that were unreliable, Lotus for example would be fixated on making their cars fast, and would forget reliable (it's telling that Lotus is jokingly said to stand for, Lots Of Trouble, Usually Serious).
The British car industry was then let down by serious union strife in the 1970s (by the way, please don't turn this into a union vs. non-union debate - both the unions and the car manufacturers did much to antagonize each other during the 70's) and as such build quality went through the floor.
However, things have improved dramatically. Nissan in Japan actually badge some of their cars with a Union Jack, to indicate that it was made in the UK Nissan plant, and the Japanese will pay a premium for those ones, as they regard the build quality as superior to ones made in Japan. Honda, BMW (with the Mini), Jaguar, Range Rover etc. are all now foreign owned, and have infused a culture quality that the UK didn't have, and they are all making excellent quality products now, aligned with what has always been a strong design aesthetic. Britain has actually done a pretty good job of accepting foreign ownership of British brands, and has worked that to everyones advantage.
As someone else mentioned, Rolls-Royce aero engines compete with the best in terms of efficiency, reliability and quality, and BAe systems are a world leader in weapons systems.
So, in summary, you are absolutely right to call out poor British quality, but in my opinion, it is increasingly a thing of the past.
I owned the aforementioned 1974 MG Midget so I spent a lot of time balancing dual SU carburetors and dealing with those notorious Lucas electrics. The thing leaked in the rain, right above my hand. Still it was a great car to drive in college. A little terrifying but otherwise a lot of fun. The telling part is a friend of mine owns a 1948 MG TC (which I get to drive from time to time). This car was built with wooden coach works when that was already an antique method. I have to tinker with it to get it running even though the engine has been fully overhauled, so I know it's got the very same SU carburetors as my '70s MG, with the same issues and eccentricities! This is hidebound British engineering for you -- 25 years, no changes, even to systems that work poorly.
I lived for several months in the Oxford area during the early '90s. My landlady worked at the Austin-Rover plant in Cowley at a time when they were partnered with Honda to build the Sterling cars. I remember her telling me that she was sure the partnership would fail and the factory would close because (and these were her words) "the British are lazy."
So... the Sterling partnership did fail, but then BMW bought what was left of Rover and developed the Mini, which is built in the same factory in Cowley. I've owned a Mini for the past 8 1/2 years and have come to the opinion that this is a British car done right.
I owned the aforementioned 1974 MG Midget so I spent a lot of time balancing dual SU carburetors and dealing with those notorious Lucas electrics. The thing leaked in the rain, right above my hand. Still it was a great car to drive in college. A little terrifying but otherwise a lot of fun. The telling part is a friend of mine owns a 1948 MG TC (which I get to drive from time to time). This car was built with wooden coach works when that was already an antique method. I have to tinker with it to get it running even though the engine has been fully overhauled, so I know it's got the very same SU carburetors as my '70s MG, with the same issues and eccentricities! This is hidebound British engineering for you -- 25 years, no changes, even to systems that work poorly.
I lived for several months in the Oxford area during the early '90s. My landlady worked at the Austin-Rover plant in Cowley at a time when they were partnered with Honda to build the Sterling cars. I remember her telling me that she was sure the partnership would fail and the factory would close because (and these were her words) "the British are lazy."
So... the Sterling partnership did fail, but then BMW bought what was left of Rover and developed the Mini, which is built in the same factory in Cowley. I've owned a Mini for the past 8 1/2 years and have come to the opinion that this is a British car done right.
Funny how that worked out.
?Heaven is where the police are British, the cooks are French, the mechanics are German, the lovers are Italian and it is all organised by the Swiss. Hell is where the police are German, the cooks are English, the mechanics are French, the lovers are Swiss, and it is all organised by the Italians?.
First of all, I'm very glad for Ive - well-deserved recognition!
I just feel like rambling about a couple things: and that's all this is - rambling.
1. I still haven't had a chance to read the Jobs biography. But Ive's comments about Jobs taking credit for some of his ideas bothers me. I just don't know what to think of Jobs - a man the press simultaneously calls genius and mercurial. I'm concerned that Apple's success may have resulted from his hard-driving, unreasonable approach... and now that Mr. Jobs is gone?! What now? I want Apple to continue to make great products and experience phenomenal success! I hope things will not deteriorate in his absence.
All in all this is wonderful news about Ive and congratulations to him!!! :-)
(1) my hats off to Ive's. DNA of silver smith comes out with a "gold smith". a true knight indeed.
(2) jobs did recognize his talent and utilize it to the full extend. That is something (a diamond in the mud need to be discovered and polished). As for taking credit, nothing new. The Pixar story is the same. Jobs talent is utilize the others to fulfill his goal. Nothing wrong with that. Every business CEO should be the same if they have not yet to do so (what is the goal would be a differentiation as for the good/bad).
We should have known this was coming, with the release of Sir-I.
Thanks for that clever bit of thinking Cpsro. 'Sir-I' sounds much better than 'Sir Jonny'.
But I suspect that Ive was so effective at Apple because Jobs ensured his designs got translated into actual products. Whereas in most modern companies the ultimate design decisions are made by gormless bean counters who insist on the cheapest designs, the cheapest materials and the lowest cost of manufacture. And the CEOs of those companies couldn't care less about the quality of the product or the customer experience with that product.
The result of this is devices with hundreds of buttons on them, a need to enrol in a university course to figure out how to use them all, and a warranty that terminates one day before the device self destructs because of poor design, poor materials, poor manufacture or because a frustrated customer throws the damn thing to the ground in exasperation.
Long may Sir-I, and the spirit of Steve Jobs, live.
2. The English, to me, are an enigma. They have some wonderful car designs - the Jaguars and the Range Rovers are beautiful and the MG Midget my dad drove in his youth was splendid - but their build quality and reliability are terrible! And it's not for lack of smarts: the English built the Colossus computer during the World War II which decoded Nazi ciphers. I just don't understand why their designs are so good but their quality can be so bad! But I'm so glad that in the case of Apple Ive's wonderful designs are backed by outstanding quality!
All in all this is wonderful news about Ive and congratulations to him!!! :-)
You've got to take into account that most of what we built was in a time when build quality from anywhere was aweful so it didn't really matter. It was only when the Japanese started making decent products it became an issue. Now we make reliable products but there all for overseas brands.
2. The English, to me, are an enigma. They have some wonderful car designs - the Jaguars and the Range Rovers are beautiful and the MG Midget my dad drove in his youth was splendid - but their build quality and reliability are terrible! And it's not for lack of smarts: the English built the Colossus computer during the World War II which decoded Nazi ciphers. I just don't understand why their designs are so good but their quality can be so bad!
For similar reasons why American cars have (or at least had) such terrible build quality - the British car industry was held to ransom by powerful unions who just couldn't see the world was changing, that the Japanese and German makers were catching up and overtaking the ancient Leyland and Austin.
Combine that with the Thatcher government that would sacrifice the industry to smash the unions, and the British car industry's fate was sealed.
British engineering is still amongst the best in the world (what little we have) - look at Rolls Royce engines for example - but years of neglect from the government and strikes from the unions combined to kill our manufacturing base. Sniff...
At least they can write correctly in their own language.
Since it is a British award to Brits, it only needs to be relevant in Britain.
For knighthoods to be given, the recipient has usually given a lot back. People don't get them just for their own success.
Very true. You don't even have to successful, I believe there's a cleaner earning minimum wage that has been awarded a title. You just have to do something outstanding, preferably benefitting others. E.g. Jamie Oliver was awarded his honours not for his job as a chef, but for the work he's done helping kids.
2. The English, to me, are an enigma. They have some wonderful car designs - the Jaguars and the Range Rovers are beautiful and the MG Midget my dad drove in his youth was splendid - but their build quality and reliability are terrible! And it's not for lack of smarts: the English built the Colossus computer during the World War II which decoded Nazi ciphers. I just don't understand why their designs are so good but their quality can be so bad! But I'm so glad that in the case of Apple Ive's wonderful designs are backed by outstanding quality! . ..
Thanks for the broad generalised insult to all English people based on the limited knowledge you have of the manufacturing of a few random automobiles.
The English are excellent engineers, designers and inventors and there is no one in America today that even comes close to someone like Ives. I find it interesting that the most successful company in the world which is almost 100% American has an Englishman at the centre of all that success. That tells you more than someones "ramblings" about the quality of a car he once looked at.
I especially find the fact that you can't see the irony in your statement that (paraphrased) "the design is good but the quality is bad." This is a statement that is definitely far more fitting of American engineering than it is of the English. Even if we limit the discussion to cars, at least the English have actually designed quite a few world class autos, which is something the Americans cannot claim.
I would admit that the English are more inventors than they are engineers, but invention leads engineering and is at the end of the day far more important. Thinking up the new stuff in the first place is far more important than just being able to put a bolt in straight.
So... the Sterling partnership did fail, but then BMW bought what was left of Rover and developed the Mini, which is built in the same factory in Cowley. I've owned a Mini for the past 8 1/2 years and have come to the opinion that this is a British car done right.
Funny how that worked out.
Erm?....
BAe wanted out of Rover so sold it to BMW. BMW and Honda were definitely not going to work together which is why that partnership broke up.
As for the MINI, that was asset striped out of Rover by BMW. The real 2nd generation Mini looked nothing like the MINI, and the designs were over-ruled by BMW who wanted something retro, hence the dreadfully large and expensive MINI.
BMW didn't even want the Kseries in the MINI and opted for an inferior Brazilian engine, rather than the highly rated K series. (And before we talk about HGFs, they were largely sorted out once BMW sold off Rover and Rover were allowed to fix the issue. Plus it was mainly the F/TF that had the HGF issues).
The MINI is nothing but a German car built in the UK.
Next we will see knighthood for the person who designed fancy patterned toilet paper. This show the relevancy of he British empire.
A) It's British Empire
It doesn't exist anymore
C) So a man who designed many 'revolutionary' products cannot be given an honorary title alongside Helena Bonham-Carter or the local schoolteacher for services to design and enterprise?
Next we will see knighthood for the person who designed fancy patterned toilet paper. This show the relevancy of he British empire.
I think it is a clever modernisation of an old concept. It used to be that great warriors were vital to a country, now it is great businessman. Traditions should not be thrown out wholesale, that is cultural vandalism.
It would also have been acceptable to modernise it to be something given to special forces, who are modern equivalent of an elite warrior.
"Interestingly enough, Jobs himself was also considered for knighthood by the Queen of the United Kingdom, but the proposal was blocked by a former Prime Minister because Jobs declined to speak at a Labour Party conference."
Ah yes... British people unfortunately remember (though he's eminently forgetable) the "One-eyed son of the Manse" - also known as Gordon "Moron" Brown, the unelected Socialist Prime Minister - who ruined their economy and whose temper tantrums included throwing his Nokia at anyone within range.
Well, it hasn't been too fantastic since Thatcher. Blair was gung-ho about a certain illegal war, Brown, average, now David Cameron... A once mighty Empire that spanned the globe, that spawned hundreds of colonies, heck, took over an entire continent... Now...
Ah well, at least the English language is still going strong... for now.
Comments
In that Chuck Norris kinda way.
In an old photo kind of way you mean...
would have such an archaic and ridiculous title.
Shut up dude, seriously.
So, this is one of the guys who do all they can to take away user serviceability from Apple products, so they can hope to charge premium prices for everything
That is actually a really good point.
For example, the first white iBooks had a horrible design from a service standpoint. You had to spend an hour taking the thing apart just to swap out the hard drive, something that should be a routine task. That time ends up being money lost by the company (possibly money gained if out of warranty).
We can look at the more recent MacBooks as an example of how Apple corrected that particular problem but their designs were clearly not perfect.
For disclosure as to where my opinions are coming from, I'm a Brit, living in the UK.
Basically, the British are an inventive people, but have not always been very good at understanding the difference between being an inventor and being an engineer. It was assumed that whoever invented or designed a product would be able to make the whole thing into a product, and we missed the boat when other countries (notably Germany with cars) figured out that once someone had designed the look of a car, someone else was needed to make it reliable, so in that sense, we didn't engineer cars to be reliable in the way the Germans did.
Effectively we allowed one key player in a design to hold sway over everything, so the thing never worked as a whole. So it wasn't just we made good looking cars that were unreliable, Lotus for example would be fixated on making their cars fast, and would forget reliable (it's telling that Lotus is jokingly said to stand for, Lots Of Trouble, Usually Serious).
The British car industry was then let down by serious union strife in the 1970s (by the way, please don't turn this into a union vs. non-union debate - both the unions and the car manufacturers did much to antagonize each other during the 70's) and as such build quality went through the floor.
However, things have improved dramatically. Nissan in Japan actually badge some of their cars with a Union Jack, to indicate that it was made in the UK Nissan plant, and the Japanese will pay a premium for those ones, as they regard the build quality as superior to ones made in Japan. Honda, BMW (with the Mini), Jaguar, Range Rover etc. are all now foreign owned, and have infused a culture quality that the UK didn't have, and they are all making excellent quality products now, aligned with what has always been a strong design aesthetic. Britain has actually done a pretty good job of accepting foreign ownership of British brands, and has worked that to everyones advantage.
As someone else mentioned, Rolls-Royce aero engines compete with the best in terms of efficiency, reliability and quality, and BAe systems are a world leader in weapons systems.
So, in summary, you are absolutely right to call out poor British quality, but in my opinion, it is increasingly a thing of the past.
I owned the aforementioned 1974 MG Midget so I spent a lot of time balancing dual SU carburetors and dealing with those notorious Lucas electrics. The thing leaked in the rain, right above my hand. Still it was a great car to drive in college. A little terrifying but otherwise a lot of fun. The telling part is a friend of mine owns a 1948 MG TC (which I get to drive from time to time). This car was built with wooden coach works when that was already an antique method. I have to tinker with it to get it running even though the engine has been fully overhauled, so I know it's got the very same SU carburetors as my '70s MG, with the same issues and eccentricities! This is hidebound British engineering for you -- 25 years, no changes, even to systems that work poorly.
I lived for several months in the Oxford area during the early '90s. My landlady worked at the Austin-Rover plant in Cowley at a time when they were partnered with Honda to build the Sterling cars. I remember her telling me that she was sure the partnership would fail and the factory would close because (and these were her words) "the British are lazy."
So... the Sterling partnership did fail, but then BMW bought what was left of Rover and developed the Mini, which is built in the same factory in Cowley. I've owned a Mini for the past 8 1/2 years and have come to the opinion that this is a British car done right.
Funny how that worked out.
I owned the aforementioned 1974 MG Midget so I spent a lot of time balancing dual SU carburetors and dealing with those notorious Lucas electrics. The thing leaked in the rain, right above my hand. Still it was a great car to drive in college. A little terrifying but otherwise a lot of fun. The telling part is a friend of mine owns a 1948 MG TC (which I get to drive from time to time). This car was built with wooden coach works when that was already an antique method. I have to tinker with it to get it running even though the engine has been fully overhauled, so I know it's got the very same SU carburetors as my '70s MG, with the same issues and eccentricities! This is hidebound British engineering for you -- 25 years, no changes, even to systems that work poorly.
I lived for several months in the Oxford area during the early '90s. My landlady worked at the Austin-Rover plant in Cowley at a time when they were partnered with Honda to build the Sterling cars. I remember her telling me that she was sure the partnership would fail and the factory would close because (and these were her words) "the British are lazy."
So... the Sterling partnership did fail, but then BMW bought what was left of Rover and developed the Mini, which is built in the same factory in Cowley. I've owned a Mini for the past 8 1/2 years and have come to the opinion that this is a British car done right.
Funny how that worked out.
?Heaven is where the police are British, the cooks are French, the mechanics are German, the lovers are Italian and it is all organised by the Swiss. Hell is where the police are German, the cooks are English, the mechanics are French, the lovers are Swiss, and it is all organised by the Italians?.
First of all, I'm very glad for Ive - well-deserved recognition!
I just feel like rambling about a couple things: and that's all this is - rambling.
1. I still haven't had a chance to read the Jobs biography. But Ive's comments about Jobs taking credit for some of his ideas bothers me. I just don't know what to think of Jobs - a man the press simultaneously calls genius and mercurial. I'm concerned that Apple's success may have resulted from his hard-driving, unreasonable approach... and now that Mr. Jobs is gone?! What now? I want Apple to continue to make great products and experience phenomenal success! I hope things will not deteriorate in his absence.
All in all this is wonderful news about Ive and congratulations to him!!! :-)
(1) my hats off to Ive's. DNA of silver smith comes out with a "gold smith". a true knight indeed.
(2) jobs did recognize his talent and utilize it to the full extend. That is something (a diamond in the mud need to be discovered and polished). As for taking credit, nothing new. The Pixar story is the same. Jobs talent is utilize the others to fulfill his goal. Nothing wrong with that. Every business CEO should be the same if they have not yet to do so (what is the goal would be a differentiation as for the good/bad).
Yea, look at all those wonderful Aussi designed and built Formula 1 cars .....Brrrrrrrrrm Car!
Except that BRM was "British Racing Motors": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPwMsnehg9g
Cheers
We should have known this was coming, with the release of Sir-I.
Thanks for that clever bit of thinking Cpsro. 'Sir-I' sounds much better than 'Sir Jonny'.
But I suspect that Ive was so effective at Apple because Jobs ensured his designs got translated into actual products. Whereas in most modern companies the ultimate design decisions are made by gormless bean counters who insist on the cheapest designs, the cheapest materials and the lowest cost of manufacture. And the CEOs of those companies couldn't care less about the quality of the product or the customer experience with that product.
The result of this is devices with hundreds of buttons on them, a need to enrol in a university course to figure out how to use them all, and a warranty that terminates one day before the device self destructs because of poor design, poor materials, poor manufacture or because a frustrated customer throws the damn thing to the ground in exasperation.
Long may Sir-I, and the spirit of Steve Jobs, live.
Next we will see knighthood for the person who designed fancy patterned toilet paper. This show the relevancy of he British empire.
At least they can write correctly in their own language.
Since it is a British award to Brits, it only needs to be relevant in Britain.
For knighthoods to be given, the recipient has usually given a lot back. People don't get them just for their own success.
2. The English, to me, are an enigma. They have some wonderful car designs - the Jaguars and the Range Rovers are beautiful and the MG Midget my dad drove in his youth was splendid - but their build quality and reliability are terrible! And it's not for lack of smarts: the English built the Colossus computer during the World War II which decoded Nazi ciphers. I just don't understand why their designs are so good but their quality can be so bad! But I'm so glad that in the case of Apple Ive's wonderful designs are backed by outstanding quality!
All in all this is wonderful news about Ive and congratulations to him!!! :-)
You've got to take into account that most of what we built was in a time when build quality from anywhere was aweful so it didn't really matter. It was only when the Japanese started making decent products it became an issue. Now we make reliable products but there all for overseas brands.
2. The English, to me, are an enigma. They have some wonderful car designs - the Jaguars and the Range Rovers are beautiful and the MG Midget my dad drove in his youth was splendid - but their build quality and reliability are terrible! And it's not for lack of smarts: the English built the Colossus computer during the World War II which decoded Nazi ciphers. I just don't understand why their designs are so good but their quality can be so bad!
For similar reasons why American cars have (or at least had) such terrible build quality - the British car industry was held to ransom by powerful unions who just couldn't see the world was changing, that the Japanese and German makers were catching up and overtaking the ancient Leyland and Austin.
Combine that with the Thatcher government that would sacrifice the industry to smash the unions, and the British car industry's fate was sealed.
British engineering is still amongst the best in the world (what little we have) - look at Rolls Royce engines for example - but years of neglect from the government and strikes from the unions combined to kill our manufacturing base. Sniff...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6384zIosn8
At least they can write correctly in their own language.
Since it is a British award to Brits, it only needs to be relevant in Britain.
For knighthoods to be given, the recipient has usually given a lot back. People don't get them just for their own success.
Very true. You don't even have to successful, I believe there's a cleaner earning minimum wage that has been awarded a title. You just have to do something outstanding, preferably benefitting others. E.g. Jamie Oliver was awarded his honours not for his job as a chef, but for the work he's done helping kids.
...
2. The English, to me, are an enigma. They have some wonderful car designs - the Jaguars and the Range Rovers are beautiful and the MG Midget my dad drove in his youth was splendid - but their build quality and reliability are terrible! And it's not for lack of smarts: the English built the Colossus computer during the World War II which decoded Nazi ciphers. I just don't understand why their designs are so good but their quality can be so bad! But I'm so glad that in the case of Apple Ive's wonderful designs are backed by outstanding quality! . ..
Thanks for the broad generalised insult to all English people based on the limited knowledge you have of the manufacturing of a few random automobiles.
The English are excellent engineers, designers and inventors and there is no one in America today that even comes close to someone like Ives. I find it interesting that the most successful company in the world which is almost 100% American has an Englishman at the centre of all that success. That tells you more than someones "ramblings" about the quality of a car he once looked at.
I especially find the fact that you can't see the irony in your statement that (paraphrased) "the design is good but the quality is bad." This is a statement that is definitely far more fitting of American engineering than it is of the English. Even if we limit the discussion to cars, at least the English have actually designed quite a few world class autos, which is something the Americans cannot claim.
I would admit that the English are more inventors than they are engineers, but invention leads engineering and is at the end of the day far more important. Thinking up the new stuff in the first place is far more important than just being able to put a bolt in straight.
So... the Sterling partnership did fail, but then BMW bought what was left of Rover and developed the Mini, which is built in the same factory in Cowley. I've owned a Mini for the past 8 1/2 years and have come to the opinion that this is a British car done right.
Funny how that worked out.
Erm?....
BAe wanted out of Rover so sold it to BMW. BMW and Honda were definitely not going to work together which is why that partnership broke up.
As for the MINI, that was asset striped out of Rover by BMW. The real 2nd generation Mini looked nothing like the MINI, and the designs were over-ruled by BMW who wanted something retro, hence the dreadfully large and expensive MINI.
BMW didn't even want the Kseries in the MINI and opted for an inferior Brazilian engine, rather than the highly rated K series. (And before we talk about HGFs, they were largely sorted out once BMW sold off Rover and Rover were allowed to fix the issue. Plus it was mainly the F/TF that had the HGF issues).
The MINI is nothing but a German car built in the UK.
Next we will see knighthood for the person who designed fancy patterned toilet paper. This show the relevancy of he British empire.
A) It's British Empire
C) So a man who designed many 'revolutionary' products cannot be given an honorary title alongside Helena Bonham-Carter or the local schoolteacher for services to design and enterprise?
Next we will see knighthood for the person who designed fancy patterned toilet paper. This show the relevancy of he British empire.
I think it is a clever modernisation of an old concept. It used to be that great warriors were vital to a country, now it is great businessman. Traditions should not be thrown out wholesale, that is cultural vandalism.
It would also have been acceptable to modernise it to be something given to special forces, who are modern equivalent of an elite warrior.
"Interestingly enough, Jobs himself was also considered for knighthood by the Queen of the United Kingdom, but the proposal was blocked by a former Prime Minister because Jobs declined to speak at a Labour Party conference."
Ah yes... British people unfortunately remember (though he's eminently forgetable) the "One-eyed son of the Manse" - also known as Gordon "Moron" Brown, the unelected Socialist Prime Minister - who ruined their economy and whose temper tantrums included throwing his Nokia at anyone within range.
Well, it hasn't been too fantastic since Thatcher. Blair was gung-ho about a certain illegal war, Brown, average, now David Cameron... A once mighty Empire that spanned the globe, that spawned hundreds of colonies, heck, took over an entire continent... Now...
Ah well, at least the English language is still going strong... for now.