Don't call MSFT thieves, nobody forced you or anyone else to buy from MSFT. There was and will always be alternatives (Apple, Linux...) .Using your flawed logic every company is robbing you blind.
Actually they did, sure you had the option to install Linux or an alternative on the PC you bought but getting a refund for the unused Windows it came pre-installed with was an epic task with many hurdles to overcome.
Then look into the background of why OEM's were pre-installing Windows in the first place.
I wasn't clear. I just meant that if one is not interested in anything else as well, then you one would be a dullard. Not that liking those things alone made someone a dullard.
A dullard is someone who has no "life of the mind" and wallows in sensorial experience alone.
If you mean "life of the mind" as someone who is an idiot, stupid etc., then maybe you're right, but I don't think Ballmer is stupid. He is far from being stupid in intelligence. Maybe he acts like an idiot but stupid, he is not. The problem here is you add your morality to the definition. He [and wallows in sensorial experience alone] is your interpretation. This reflects more on you than Ballmer.
Prior to Steve's return Apple was not very innovative either. When your users are just a bunch of solo freelance hippie artists you can get away with tossing everything out the window and starting over. And while you are at it why not tell all the developers to throw away their programming language as well just for a good measure.
With Microsoft they had to advance the features of their OS yet maintain backwards compatibility for decades of legacy business customers instead of telling them they had to throw away their custom applications and interdependent hardware compatibility requirements. You can still run DOS applications today and believe it or not many people do. Good luck trying to use a CDROM with Mac OS files on it. The file naming convention that the non technical artists were using at the time would be enough by itself to crash a new Mac OS X machine. let alone the disk format issues.
Windows is a pretty good operating system regardless of how irrationally some Mac users may describe it.
You're fixated on the platform zealotry thing. Because of that desire to defend or attack one platform or the other, you're arguing against points that were never made.
You quoted my post and then preceded to defend microsoft and attack apple, as if I had been doing the opposite. Note that my post said "Microsoft became dominant through brilliant business practices" and that " Gates is a technological and business genius".
My only negative assertion about MS was that their success wasn't based upon technological innovation. An arguable point certainly, but please, desktop OS zealotry as the response? I thought we got over that nonsense a decade ago. Haven't all the nerds who's self worth is tied to OS affiliation, moved onto arguing about mobile OSes? Apparently not.
My only negative assertion about MS was that their success wasn't based upon technological innovation. An arguable point certainly, but please, desktop OS zealotry as the response? I thought we got over that nonsense a decade ago. Haven't all the nerds who's self worth is tied to OS affiliation, moved onto arguing about mobile OSes? Apparently not.
I'm not arguing which is a better OS, I clearly like Mac more. You said Microsoft didn't innovate which is an OS zealotry position if there ever was one. I defended MS only because their innovation is not as in your face as Apple's but no less difficult. Having the option to shit can the entire platform and start over may look innovative but MS did not have that option which makes whizz bang innovation less likely and under the hood type innovation more difficult, but no less impressive, in my opinion. Maybe I misunderstood not realizing that your remarks were just random derogatory jabs at MS. I thought you intended it to be a comparison to Apple being the true innovator and MS not very much, which is of course BS.
You must also add in the cost of a cheap PC. MS Office on its own only serves as a drink coaster and/or paper weight. A frisbee, perhaps.
He was responding to:
Quote:
Originally Posted by shompa
For most companies its cheaper to buy an iPad + Apple office, then buying MSFT Office.
So caliminius' statement is accurate:
Quote:
Originally Posted by caliminius
Let's see, if you're saying MS Office costs $300-500, then any way you cut it, that would be cheaper than the $499 minimum iPad cost + $30 Apple office apps. So how is Apple cheaper?
Now I suppose you will argue that buying a PC was implied?
I'm not arguing which is a better OS, I clearly like Mac more. You said Microsoft didn't innovate which is an OS zealotry position if there ever was one. I defended MS only because their innovation is not as in your face as Apple's but no less difficult. Having the option to shit can the entire platform and start over may look innovative but MS did not have that option which makes whizz bang innovation less likely and under the hood type innovation more difficult, but no less impressive, in my opinion. Maybe I misunderstood not realizing that your remarks were just random derogatory jabs at MS. I thought you intended it to be a comparison to Apple being the true innovator and MS not very much, which is of course BS.
You're still trying to make this into an all or nothing, praise or condem discussion. Because of that, you've read into my post an extremist position that was never actually asserted.
Those days are changing fast, if you are forced to use a PC now I am truly sorry but many, many companies are seeing the light as IT either lose their stranglehold or embrace iOS which is leading to OS X getting a fresh look. There is an IT revolution going on folks
You don't work in IT do you? I love Apple products. That said Apple has given the FINGER to corporations.
Our group of Mac users, about 30 out of 5000, not sit in their own OD domain. We tried like hell to get Lion Server (now on a Mini, on a tray, in a rack, in the server room) to play nicely with AD like our Leopard Xserve did. It never did, so we broke down the "golden triangle" and now they have double logins. Many....many....many other corporations are having the same issue....just read a few forums on the topic.
I am fine with Apple going pure consumer. I just need our few Mac users to understand that Apple does not care about them at work.
Any truth in that story about Apple products being banned in the Gates household? If that is true, then I think that does say a lot about Bill. I'm sure Steve would not ban Microsoft from his home, but he definitely would call it crap, convince whoever was using it that it was crap and then thrown it out!
After the IBM deal MSFT went out and bought Quick and dirty DOS and the worlds largest software company was created.
QDOS was a rip of CP/M and technically stolen. I believe MS later ended up paying royalties on it, though I don't think there is any indication they knew QDOS was a rip & the resulting MS-DOS was actually dramatically different.
What they did do is blatantly steal IP from Apple, which they later quietly settled with Apple on by giving them enough money to avoid bankruptcy. MS paid Apple that money under the guise that it was trying to keep a competitor in the market. In a way that was their true intent, though not because they are nice guys but because they were trying to buy themselves some credibility against monopoly charges.
I am and have been a un-abashed Mac fanboy since high school...
so this interview make me feel a little weird because it is being done by the husband of my high school sweetheart... with Bill Gates (aka my mortal enemy for so many years), about Steve Jobs....my HERO for so same years....
You don't work in IT do you? I love Apple products. That said Apple has given the FINGER to corporations.
Let me guess, .local AD domain? I love Apple's products & I abhor MS but I will say Apple has really dumped on the medium sized businesses with Lion. They have great solutions for fortune 500 & they have great solutions for small businesses but for us in the middle it's been like pulling teeth to get them to understand how stupid the changes they made to Lion were for a medium business environment. Snow Leopard was working great, then came Lion & Apple's forced upgrade model. I'd even be happy if they'd just support SL on current hardware for at least a year after an OS release, instead of surprising us with a refresh that drops SL support all together.
Comments
Don't call MSFT thieves, nobody forced you or anyone else to buy from MSFT. There was and will always be alternatives (Apple, Linux...) .Using your flawed logic every company is robbing you blind.
Actually they did, sure you had the option to install Linux or an alternative on the PC you bought but getting a refund for the unused Windows it came pre-installed with was an epic task with many hurdles to overcome.
Then look into the background of why OEM's were pre-installing Windows in the first place.
Just one of many bad things Microsoft did.
I wasn't clear. I just meant that if one is not interested in anything else as well, then you one would be a dullard. Not that liking those things alone made someone a dullard.
A dullard is someone who has no "life of the mind" and wallows in sensorial experience alone.
If you mean "life of the mind" as someone who is an idiot, stupid etc., then maybe you're right, but I don't think Ballmer is stupid. He is far from being stupid in intelligence. Maybe he acts like an idiot but stupid, he is not. The problem here is you add your morality to the definition. He [and wallows in sensorial experience alone] is your interpretation. This reflects more on you than Ballmer.
Prior to Steve's return Apple was not very innovative either. When your users are just a bunch of solo freelance hippie artists you can get away with tossing everything out the window and starting over. And while you are at it why not tell all the developers to throw away their programming language as well just for a good measure.
With Microsoft they had to advance the features of their OS yet maintain backwards compatibility for decades of legacy business customers instead of telling them they had to throw away their custom applications and interdependent hardware compatibility requirements. You can still run DOS applications today and believe it or not many people do. Good luck trying to use a CDROM with Mac OS files on it. The file naming convention that the non technical artists were using at the time would be enough by itself to crash a new Mac OS X machine. let alone the disk format issues.
Windows is a pretty good operating system regardless of how irrationally some Mac users may describe it.
You're fixated on the platform zealotry thing. Because of that desire to defend or attack one platform or the other, you're arguing against points that were never made.
You quoted my post and then preceded to defend microsoft and attack apple, as if I had been doing the opposite. Note that my post said "Microsoft became dominant through brilliant business practices" and that " Gates is a technological and business genius".
My only negative assertion about MS was that their success wasn't based upon technological innovation. An arguable point certainly, but please, desktop OS zealotry as the response? I thought we got over that nonsense a decade ago. Haven't all the nerds who's self worth is tied to OS affiliation, moved onto arguing about mobile OSes?
My only negative assertion about MS was that their success wasn't based upon technological innovation. An arguable point certainly, but please, desktop OS zealotry as the response? I thought we got over that nonsense a decade ago. Haven't all the nerds who's self worth is tied to OS affiliation, moved onto arguing about mobile OSes?
I'm not arguing which is a better OS, I clearly like Mac more. You said Microsoft didn't innovate which is an OS zealotry position if there ever was one. I defended MS only because their innovation is not as in your face as Apple's but no less difficult. Having the option to shit can the entire platform and start over may look innovative but MS did not have that option which makes whizz bang innovation less likely and under the hood type innovation more difficult, but no less impressive, in my opinion. Maybe I misunderstood not realizing that your remarks were just random derogatory jabs at MS. I thought you intended it to be a comparison to Apple being the true innovator and MS not very much, which is of course BS.
You must also add in the cost of a cheap PC. MS Office on its own only serves as a drink coaster and/or paper weight. A frisbee, perhaps.
He was responding to:
For most companies its cheaper to buy an iPad + Apple office, then buying MSFT Office.
So caliminius' statement is accurate:
Let's see, if you're saying MS Office costs $300-500, then any way you cut it, that would be cheaper than the $499 minimum iPad cost + $30 Apple office apps. So how is Apple cheaper?
Now I suppose you will argue that buying a PC was implied?
I'm not arguing which is a better OS, I clearly like Mac more. You said Microsoft didn't innovate which is an OS zealotry position if there ever was one. I defended MS only because their innovation is not as in your face as Apple's but no less difficult. Having the option to shit can the entire platform and start over may look innovative but MS did not have that option which makes whizz bang innovation less likely and under the hood type innovation more difficult, but no less impressive, in my opinion. Maybe I misunderstood not realizing that your remarks were just random derogatory jabs at MS. I thought you intended it to be a comparison to Apple being the true innovator and MS not very much, which is of course BS.
You're still trying to make this into an all or nothing, praise or condem discussion. Because of that, you've read into my post an extremist position that was never actually asserted.
Those days are changing fast, if you are forced to use a PC now I am truly sorry but many, many companies are seeing the light as IT either lose their stranglehold or embrace iOS which is leading to OS X getting a fresh look. There is an IT revolution going on folks
You don't work in IT do you? I love Apple products. That said Apple has given the FINGER to corporations.
Our group of Mac users, about 30 out of 5000, not sit in their own OD domain. We tried like hell to get Lion Server (now on a Mini, on a tray, in a rack, in the server room) to play nicely with AD like our Leopard Xserve did. It never did, so we broke down the "golden triangle" and now they have double logins. Many....many....many other corporations are having the same issue....just read a few forums on the topic.
I am fine with Apple going pure consumer. I just need our few Mac users to understand that Apple does not care about them at work.
Any truth in that story about Apple products being banned in the Gates household?
Yep, he said that himself.
After the IBM deal MSFT went out and bought Quick and dirty DOS and the worlds largest software company was created.
QDOS was a rip of CP/M and technically stolen. I believe MS later ended up paying royalties on it, though I don't think there is any indication they knew QDOS was a rip & the resulting MS-DOS was actually dramatically different.
What they did do is blatantly steal IP from Apple, which they later quietly settled with Apple on by giving them enough money to avoid bankruptcy. MS paid Apple that money under the guise that it was trying to keep a competitor in the market. In a way that was their true intent, though not because they are nice guys but because they were trying to buy themselves some credibility against monopoly charges.
so this interview make me feel a little weird because it is being done by the husband of my high school sweetheart... with Bill Gates (aka my mortal enemy for so many years), about Steve Jobs....my HERO for so same years....
You don't work in IT do you? I love Apple products. That said Apple has given the FINGER to corporations.
Let me guess, .local AD domain? I love Apple's products & I abhor MS but I will say Apple has really dumped on the medium sized businesses with Lion. They have great solutions for fortune 500 & they have great solutions for small businesses but for us in the middle it's been like pulling teeth to get them to understand how stupid the changes they made to Lion were for a medium business environment. Snow Leopard was working great, then came Lion & Apple's forced upgrade model. I'd even be happy if they'd just support SL on current hardware for at least a year after an OS release, instead of surprising us with a refresh that drops SL support all together.