Why? Why should Apple do any of this? They don't owe it to anybody. They didn't kidnap these people and force them to work. Just like in the U.S., people choose to work or not. During CNY, many plants have high turnover as workers leave to work at the family farm, or get a different job. Their not conscripts. They get paid a wage in exchange for labor. If they didn't feel it was just, they'd work someplace else. If you feel the whole system needs to get changed, then that's an issue left for China's government, the government the people formed. Not some outside corporation.
The real question is why shouldn't Apple do it. Apple (yes, "my" company because I'm a shareholder) has a huge hoard of cash and can afford to do the things I mentioned.
Apple can raise the bar for all other companies and raise the living standard of these HUMAN BEINGS. What is the down side? A slight blip in the bottom line?
To say "they didn't kidnap these people" is not the point. People will go to where the jobs are (and yes, that's true in North America too, in case you've missed the immigration issue) because they need to live. Is it not the employers' responsibility to provide decent living and working conditions? Apple can easily do this and should, ethically. The bottom line will be almost unaffected. And, by raising the bar, other tech companies will get in line or suffer the poor PR that will surely follow.
By the way, why not offer bonuses to workers for longevity and loyalty, too. Solves the turnover problem to which you refer...
,
I'm also both an Apple fan/user and a stockholder. I think Cook's reply was disappointing. I'd like specific responses to the allegations made. If the auditors can be bought off, doesn't that undermine the imprimatur Apple says it has?
Spend the money, fix the problems. If everything in the article is a lie, prove it--the NYT did its research (read the articles; they're not just based on easily-dismissed former employees). I don't expect gainsay in reply.
Who cares just keep churning out cool products. When the Chinese are all used up, Apple will move on to another country, just do not stop production.
As I read through this whole thread, I see very few who actually show concern for the Chinese workers. The majority are simply upset Apple is in the spot light about it and in a negative light. The priorities of some??
Of course Apple is Steve Jobs, known to have denied paternity of his first child, admitted to stealing others ideas and gloating about it, denial of his own father, model human rights leader, super star.
As I read through this whole thread, I see very few who actually show concern for the Chinese workers. The majority are simply upset Apple is in the spot light about it and in a negative light. The priorities of some??
Perhaps you could share how you have been showing your concern for the Chinese workers.
I don't care about the Chinese worker, they can fall off the Earth and it would not matter to me.
Then why do you give a shit about the motives of others... oh, forgive me, I forgot... anything that puts Apple in a bad light is something that you enjoy.
It's commendable that Apple brings this into the open and appears to be honest about it - Tim Cook seems very genuine like a lot of Apple staff and it's nice to see - but their reports still grade by Eastern standards and not Western standards:
They don't mention what the salaries are and if it's a fair compensation for the work performed, how many people share dorms and for how long.
The stats show that only 38% of the companies complied with the 60 hour per week working limit. You don't have to raise the bar very high to come out above the other options when they are so poor.
Every worker should live with their family, not in a dorm. They should earn enough money after a working week to pay for their home + expenses and have a reasonable amount of disposable income.
Apple can draw up a comparison between an average factory worker in the US and an average factory worker in China and see the difference in their quality of life. The life of a Chinese worker isn't worth any less than an American one so they should be treated exactly the same.
The workers may well be happy but are they happy in an absolute sense or just happy that they aren't being treated worse somewhere else because there's a big difference.
I like your honesty. But it kind of weakens your credibility in criticizing posters trying to have a discussion on the role of Apple and others in modifying the economy and business practices in China, no matter what their opinion.
I like your honesty. But it kind of weakens your credibility in criticizing posters trying to have a discussion on the role of Apple and others in modifying the economy and business practices in China, no matter what their opinion.
Im just being honest and not judging. If someone's feelings get hurt than maybe they should ask why?
The workers may well be happy but are they happy in an absolute sense or just happy that they aren't being treated worse somewhere else because there's a big difference.
Exactly. Somewhere towards the latter condition is a threshold that could be regarded as exploitation, but where should Apple (and all the other companies) try to drive the balance? Presumably not all the way to absolute happiness, as that doesn't exist in factories anywhere (does it?). On par with Western factories? Hard to figure where that lies given the huge discrepancies in culture and economy.
Im just being honest and not judging. If someone's feelings get hurt than maybe they should ask why?
I'm sure no one's feelings are hurt, but it's hard to figure out what you are trying to contribute to this discussion. You don't care, but everyone else should, is all I got so far.
It's commendable that Apple brings this into the open and appears to be honest about it - Tim Cook seems very genuine like a lot of Apple staff and it's nice to see - but their reports still grade by Eastern standards and not Western standards:
They don't mention what the salaries are and if it's a fair compensation for the work performed, how many people share dorms and for how long.
The stats show that only 38% of the companies complied with the 60 hour per week working limit. You don't have to raise the bar very high to come out above the other options when they are so poor.
Every worker should live with their family, not in a dorm. They should earn enough money after a working week to pay for their home + expenses and have a reasonable amount of disposable income.
Apple can draw up a comparison between an average factory worker in the US and an average factory worker in China and see the difference in their quality of life. The life of a Chinese worker isn't worth any less than an American one so they should be treated exactly the same.
The workers may well be happy but are they happy in an absolute sense or just happy that they aren't being treated worse somewhere else because there's a big difference.
On what basis should Apple be forced to grade by U.S. standards? What if Apple's HQ were in Shanghai and they had Apple Stores in the U.S. Should they be able to pay the employees according to China standards? 70 hours a week for $20 a week? Or, even more to the point, work week is lower in Europe than in the U.S. Should Apple be able to force people to work U.S. hours in Europe because it's an American company? That doesn't make any more sense than expecting Apple to use U.S. standards in China.
I'm sure no one's feelings are hurt, but it's hard to figure out what you are trying to contribute to this discussion. You don't care, but everyone else should, is all I got so far.
My contribution is just this, to bring attention to the fact on how shallow so many are, yes I am shallow in this regard. The hypocrisy is astounding, forum members they stomp and pound regarding IP and theft of Apple ideas ect....... Grab the pitch forks but when it comes to actual human beings, they could care less and still only care about what light Apple may be held under.
My contribution is just this, to bring attention to the fact on how shallow so many are, yes I am shallow in this regard. The hypocrisy is astounding, forum members they stomp and pound regarding IP and theft of Apple ideas ect....... Grab the pitch forks but when it comes to actual human beings, they could care less and still only care about what light Apple may be held under.
OK, yes, there are some shallow comments, but I think you are being unfair in characterizing the overall discussion in those terms - this is not a black and white issue and good points are being made on both sides.
OK, yes, there are some shallow comments, but I think you are being unfair in characterizing the overall discussion in those terms - this is not a black and white issue and good points are being made on both sides.
As I said, some are showing a concern and making good points but there are far more comments regarding the article, how awesome Cook is, ect.... ect.... speaks volumes. Whether I am fair or not is irrelevant, we are all just a bunch of clowns on a forum who know it all. Pointing out the facade.
Comments
Why? Why should Apple do any of this? They don't owe it to anybody. They didn't kidnap these people and force them to work. Just like in the U.S., people choose to work or not. During CNY, many plants have high turnover as workers leave to work at the family farm, or get a different job. Their not conscripts. They get paid a wage in exchange for labor. If they didn't feel it was just, they'd work someplace else. If you feel the whole system needs to get changed, then that's an issue left for China's government, the government the people formed. Not some outside corporation.
The real question is why shouldn't Apple do it. Apple (yes, "my" company because I'm a shareholder) has a huge hoard of cash and can afford to do the things I mentioned.
Apple can raise the bar for all other companies and raise the living standard of these HUMAN BEINGS. What is the down side? A slight blip in the bottom line?
To say "they didn't kidnap these people" is not the point. People will go to where the jobs are (and yes, that's true in North America too, in case you've missed the immigration issue) because they need to live. Is it not the employers' responsibility to provide decent living and working conditions? Apple can easily do this and should, ethically. The bottom line will be almost unaffected. And, by raising the bar, other tech companies will get in line or suffer the poor PR that will surely follow.
By the way, why not offer bonuses to workers for longevity and loyalty, too. Solves the turnover problem to which you refer...
,
I'm also both an Apple fan/user and a stockholder. I think Cook's reply was disappointing. I'd like specific responses to the allegations made. If the auditors can be bought off, doesn't that undermine the imprimatur Apple says it has?
Spend the money, fix the problems. If everything in the article is a lie, prove it--the NYT did its research (read the articles; they're not just based on easily-dismissed former employees). I don't expect gainsay in reply.
As I read through this whole thread, I see very few who actually show concern for the Chinese workers. The majority are simply upset Apple is in the spot light about it and in a negative light. The priorities of some??
Of course Apple is Steve Jobs, known to have denied paternity of his first child, admitted to stealing others ideas and gloating about it, denial of his own father, model human rights leader, super star.
As I read through this whole thread, I see very few who actually show concern for the Chinese workers. The majority are simply upset Apple is in the spot light about it and in a negative light. The priorities of some??
Perhaps you could share how you have been showing your concern for the Chinese workers.
Perhaps you could share how you have been showing your concern for the Chinese workers.
By hating Apple.
Perhaps you could share how you have been showing your concern for the Chinese workers.
I don't care about the Chinese worker, they can fall off the Earth and it would not matter to me.
I don't care about the Chinese worker, they can fall off the Earth and it would not matter to me.
But what about all the electronics you (presumably) buy that are made in China?
I don't care about the Chinese worker, they can fall off the Earth and it would not matter to me.
Then why do you give a shit about the motives of others... oh, forgive me, I forgot... anything that puts Apple in a bad light is something that you enjoy.
But what about all the electronics you (presumably) buy that are made in China?
I dont care who makes it, just make it.
Then why do you give a shit about the motives of others...
I don't, just pointing it out.
http://www.apple.com/supplierrespons...y/reports.html
They don't mention what the salaries are and if it's a fair compensation for the work performed, how many people share dorms and for how long.
The stats show that only 38% of the companies complied with the 60 hour per week working limit. You don't have to raise the bar very high to come out above the other options when they are so poor.
Every worker should live with their family, not in a dorm. They should earn enough money after a working week to pay for their home + expenses and have a reasonable amount of disposable income.
Apple can draw up a comparison between an average factory worker in the US and an average factory worker in China and see the difference in their quality of life. The life of a Chinese worker isn't worth any less than an American one so they should be treated exactly the same.
The workers may well be happy but are they happy in an absolute sense or just happy that they aren't being treated worse somewhere else because there's a big difference.
I dont care who makes it, just make it.
I like your honesty. But it kind of weakens your credibility in criticizing posters trying to have a discussion on the role of Apple and others in modifying the economy and business practices in China, no matter what their opinion.
I like your honesty. But it kind of weakens your credibility in criticizing posters trying to have a discussion on the role of Apple and others in modifying the economy and business practices in China, no matter what their opinion.
Im just being honest and not judging. If someone's feelings get hurt than maybe they should ask why?
The workers may well be happy but are they happy in an absolute sense or just happy that they aren't being treated worse somewhere else because there's a big difference.
Exactly. Somewhere towards the latter condition is a threshold that could be regarded as exploitation, but where should Apple (and all the other companies) try to drive the balance? Presumably not all the way to absolute happiness, as that doesn't exist in factories anywhere (does it?). On par with Western factories? Hard to figure where that lies given the huge discrepancies in culture and economy.
Im just being honest and not judging. If someone's feelings get hurt than maybe they should ask why?
I'm sure no one's feelings are hurt, but it's hard to figure out what you are trying to contribute to this discussion. You don't care, but everyone else should, is all I got so far.
It's commendable that Apple brings this into the open and appears to be honest about it - Tim Cook seems very genuine like a lot of Apple staff and it's nice to see - but their reports still grade by Eastern standards and not Western standards:
http://www.apple.com/supplierrespons...y/reports.html
They don't mention what the salaries are and if it's a fair compensation for the work performed, how many people share dorms and for how long.
The stats show that only 38% of the companies complied with the 60 hour per week working limit. You don't have to raise the bar very high to come out above the other options when they are so poor.
Every worker should live with their family, not in a dorm. They should earn enough money after a working week to pay for their home + expenses and have a reasonable amount of disposable income.
Apple can draw up a comparison between an average factory worker in the US and an average factory worker in China and see the difference in their quality of life. The life of a Chinese worker isn't worth any less than an American one so they should be treated exactly the same.
The workers may well be happy but are they happy in an absolute sense or just happy that they aren't being treated worse somewhere else because there's a big difference.
On what basis should Apple be forced to grade by U.S. standards? What if Apple's HQ were in Shanghai and they had Apple Stores in the U.S. Should they be able to pay the employees according to China standards? 70 hours a week for $20 a week? Or, even more to the point, work week is lower in Europe than in the U.S. Should Apple be able to force people to work U.S. hours in Europe because it's an American company? That doesn't make any more sense than expecting Apple to use U.S. standards in China.
Im just being honest and not judging. If someone's feelings get hurt than maybe they should ask why?
Feelings get hurt?
Do your feelings get hurt by something said on this board?
Really?
I'm sure no one's feelings are hurt, but it's hard to figure out what you are trying to contribute to this discussion. You don't care, but everyone else should, is all I got so far.
My contribution is just this, to bring attention to the fact on how shallow so many are, yes I am shallow in this regard. The hypocrisy is astounding, forum members they stomp and pound regarding IP and theft of Apple ideas ect....... Grab the pitch forks but when it comes to actual human beings, they could care less and still only care about what light Apple may be held under.
Feelings get hurt?
Do your feelings get hurt by something said on this board?
Really?
If I actually knew what you were babbeling on about I may be able to answer this.
My contribution is just this, to bring attention to the fact on how shallow so many are, yes I am shallow in this regard. The hypocrisy is astounding, forum members they stomp and pound regarding IP and theft of Apple ideas ect....... Grab the pitch forks but when it comes to actual human beings, they could care less and still only care about what light Apple may be held under.
OK, yes, there are some shallow comments, but I think you are being unfair in characterizing the overall discussion in those terms - this is not a black and white issue and good points are being made on both sides.
OK, yes, there are some shallow comments, but I think you are being unfair in characterizing the overall discussion in those terms - this is not a black and white issue and good points are being made on both sides.
As I said, some are showing a concern and making good points but there are far more comments regarding the article, how awesome Cook is, ect.... ect.... speaks volumes. Whether I am fair or not is irrelevant, we are all just a bunch of clowns on a forum who know it all. Pointing out the facade.