Labor advocate challenges accuracy of NYT report on Apple, Foxconn

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  • Reply 41 of 122
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Galbi View Post


    This is BSR's attempt for damage control and to keep its partnership going with Apple (a partnership doesnt have to end up with a profit) as much as it is to save its reputation. ...



    This is a troll's attempt to start a flame war.
  • Reply 42 of 122
    nagrommenagromme Posts: 2,834member
    Despite the recent Xbox story which seems to have been forgotten, I?ve seen nothing in this current batch of stories (in the general media) except fire hurled at Apple?likely the BEST of the industry, while other?and worse?tech companies are not even mentioned. Nice journalism.
  • Reply 43 of 122
    A number of tech bloggers/pundits, most notably Molly Wood, wrote various articles calling on Apple to make changes. I wonder if these journalist-wannabes retract their self-serving declarations now?
  • Reply 44 of 122
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nagromme View Post


    Despite the recent Xbox story which seems to have been forgotten, I?ve seen nothing in this current batch of stories (in the general media) except fire hurled at Apple?likely the BEST of the industry, while other?and worse?tech companies are not even mentioned. Nice journalism.



    It's standard practice to go after the industry leader, and NY Times timed their piece rather strategically. But it is disturbing that they refused to address the concerns BSR had about the article, and invoked the BSR name nonetheless to back up their story.
  • Reply 45 of 122
    so tell me,



    at the end of the day, does Foxconn have more suicide counseling hotlines than before?



    the fact that Apple was informed and "tried" to consult with Foxconn to install more hotlines does not mean anything unless Apple actually made that true.
  • Reply 46 of 122
    The NYT article was probably typed on a MacBook.
  • Reply 47 of 122
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Loptimist View Post


    so tell me,



    at the end of the day, does Foxconn have more suicide counseling hotlines than before?



    the fact that Apple was informed and "tried" to consult with Foxconn to install more hotlines does not mean anything unless Apple actually made that true.



    Sure, trying is not as good as making it happen. But to say trying means nothing is just a case of pre-established bias.
  • Reply 48 of 122
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Woodlink View Post


    The NYT article was probably typed on a MacBook.



    Probably true. But I don't think that's really a case of hypocrisy. In journalism, one is taught not to mix business and personal decisions. An pro-war journalist should not shy away from reporting war atrocities. A sportswriter can report what he observes and judges at a football game, and still attend games (or not) for personal pleasure.
  • Reply 49 of 122
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Galbi View Post


    This is BSR's attempt for damage control and to keep its partnership going with Apple (a partnership doesnt have to end up with a profit) as much as it is to save its reputation.



    As long as BSR is on the payroll of Apple, what ever statements that comes out of their mouths are not to be believed.



    It is a conflict of interest.



    They have an interest to get paid and to assist in the damage control of one of their clients (Apple in this case).



    They will do what ever it is to make that happen.



    What an uninformed, unsubstantiated set of comments.



    What a surprise, given Galbi is the source. /s
  • Reply 50 of 122
    pokepoke Posts: 506member
    I think the evidence that this is shoddy journalism is plainly obvious. Just take a look around on the Internet where this is perceived by almost everyone to be an "Apple problem." Now consider what products these Apple-adverse people are buying:



    1. Samsung phones, manufactured in Tianjin, China, with no oversight.



    2. Taiwanese phones, manufactured all over mainland China, with no oversight.



    3. Other products from Apple's American competitors, such as HP, who also use Foxconn but who for whatever reason are only mention in passing if at all in these articles. Most of these competitors have been doing far less to address the issue than Apple.



    Consider also that these other companies manufacture phones, PCs, etc, on a low-margin and sometimes zero-margin basis. Amazon even loses money on the Kindle (manufactured in China, possibly Foxconn). If you seriously think Apple's competitors even have room to improve labour conditions (especially Korean and Taiwanese competitors who are under no pressure to even check the conditions of their supply chain in mainland China), then you're nuts.



    This all leaves a clear conclusion: If you care one whit about working conditions in China, you're better off buying Apple products over competitors. First of all, you should not even be considering buying products made by Taiwanese companies or manufactured by ODMs, who all manufacture in mainland China and there is just no oversight of suppliers at all. Samsung's products might be made in better conditions in Korea but their phones, at least, are manufactured in China and working conditions in Chinese factories are just not a big issue in Korea. So that leaves the American companies who almost all use Foxconn. Among them, Apple has probably been the most proactive so far and has the most wiggle room in their margins to improve conditions (do you think Motorola can afford higher manufacturing costs when it's bleeding money?).



    So how are the NYT et al not doing consumers a complete disservice by focusing on Apple so much? Not only does it completely misinform customers but they're openly punishing one of the few companies that has made a commitment to do better and has by most accounts acted on it. It tells other companies that they're better off just ignoring the issue, since that apparently is the best way to stay out of the media's radar (see Microsoft).



    Meanwhile if you're a customer who cares about this stuff at all you're only real choices are to either keep buying Apple products or just not buy any phones or PCs.



    I don't have a problem with people saying Apple should do more - perhaps they should and perhaps we should tell them they should - but it needs to be done in a balanced way that doesn't mislead customers. The evidence that this has not been done is all around us. This has been turned into an "Apple problem" that can be solved by not buying Apple's products, but that's absurd. The only way you can wash your hands of this is by not buying any products on the market.



    Given that the starting premise of this article was so off-based, it's not surprising to me that they misrepresented people along the way.
  • Reply 51 of 122
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by I am a Zither Zather Zuzz View Post


    Nothing that the BSR said lets Apple off the hook. Nothing that the BSR said refutes any factual claims about working conditions.



    Their corrections are minor. They are each beside the point of the article, which point concerned working conditions at Apple's suppliers.



    I didn't question the accuracy of the charges, just the timing of the story.
  • Reply 52 of 122
    The nets that are stretched between the buildings in the video are meant to prevent birds from flying in through the open air spaces between buildings. They are also there to prevent iPads and iPhones from being dropped to black-market workers from the factory.

    The nets, if you look at them are not capable of catching a 90lb Chinese girl.

    This makes the rest of the "reporting" kinda of suspect.
  • Reply 53 of 122
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Psych_guy View Post


    I didn't question the accuracy of the charges, just the timing of the story.



    What is the 'timing' you would have preferred? Why?
  • Reply 54 of 122
    Apple contracts with manufacturers that have been shown to abuse workers in a variety of situations, making a variety of products, for a variety of partners, and most of us are cognizant of the fact.



    If your neighbor beats his wife, but so do the rest of the men in your neighborhood, does that make it alright with you? All of these arguments saying that Apple is being picked on reduce to the fact that they are guilty of what they are accused of, and they are one of the few companies that could change practices, if they saw fit to do so. You conspiracy theorists that think this is all drummed up as a plot against Apple are frightening, if only because it is disconcerting to encounter unalloyed stupidity of that magnitude.
  • Reply 55 of 122
    8002580025 Posts: 172member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by angryshortguy View Post


    Although unions have flaws, nothing is perfect.

    The alternative is what you have in China.

    $12 per day wages, 20 hour work days, deplorable conditions, and being roused from your sleep at 2am to start production.

    Basically, a step above slave labor.

    How much is too much at the expense of workers?

    It will never be enough. Greed begets more greed...



    Did you completeley overlook that the data you are tossing around is associated with CHINESE workers in CHINA? While a labour rate of $12/day is extremely low in the UNITED STATES, thoose standards do NOT apply anwhere else.



    And while many countries have de facto standards of when first, second, and third shifts begin and end, those times frames DO NOT apply in other countries.



    Many workers are 'roused from their sleep' to begin their work 'day'. Others are 'called in' on an emergency basis. This is not unusual.



    Do stop applying your standards where it's inappropriate to do so. American labor laws and conventions don't apply anywhere else in the world. And since the workers under discussion are NOT Apple employees, what anyone thinks Apple should do for these employees and the company they work for doesn't matter. It's another country, folks. Butt out!
  • Reply 56 of 122
    8002580025 Posts: 172member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Psych_guy View Post


    It was a hit piece, plain and simple. Apple's earnings were through the roof and the story was waiting in the wings until after the quarterly report. Don't know who is behind a lot of these auspiciously timed "news" stories about Apple, but they always seem to hit when Apple is at a peak. Are people wanting to short the stock that badly?



    Maybe the NYT is secretly owned by majorcrap, google, htc, or samsung?
  • Reply 57 of 122
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DeanSolecki View Post


    Apple contracts with manufacturers that have been shown to abuse workers in a variety of situations, making a variety of products, for a variety of partners, and most of us are cognizant of the fact.



    If your neighbor beats his wife, but so do the rest of the men in your neighborhood, does that make it alright with you? All of these arguments saying that Apple is being picked on reduce to the fact that they are guilty of what they are accused of, and they are one of the few companies that could change practices, if they saw fit to do so. You conspiracy theorists that think this is all drummed up as a plot against Apple are frightening, if only because it is disconcerting to encounter unalloyed stupidity of that magnitude.



    I really hate these stupid analogies.



    You're trying to insist that American labor standards should be applied everywhere else. Should Europeans do the same thing to us and accuse us of slavery because our standard work week is 40 hours while most of them have shorter work weeks? Or maybe Canadians can say that we're abused because we don't have free health care.



    Every country and culture has their own standards and situation. It is not up to us to try to enforce our standards on the rest of the world.
  • Reply 58 of 122
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by GregInPrague View Post


    Two or three sentences does not a thesis paper make.



    You're allowed to think anything you want obviously. Unsupported thoughts while common place on many discussion forums do not actually contribute to rational discussion.



    "That's hardly a rebuttal because it seems like a canned response" is all the reasoning I need.



    Cook's response didn't seem canned, he seemed sincerely upset (rightfully so)



    The most recent response seemed like a canned political response. Therefore I hardly see it as a rebuttal.



    Maybe I should reiterate that I'm on Apple's side here? And that I only think the response is canned and doesn't seem like much of a rebuttal probably due to my lack of confirmation bias on this situation.
  • Reply 59 of 122
    After 3 years of pressure by their critics, Foxconn has found a solution to workers conditions. They already announced last August that they will be purchasing a MILLION robots by 2014.



    http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...77016B20110801



    Rather trying to solve the prickly issues of long work hours, repetitive motion injury, suicide and constant bad press, they have found the perfection solution, retire your work force of 920,000 people. Let them go back to their small farms working 14-16 hours a days; living in hovels without electricity, running water let alone indoor bathroom; living on a dollar a day.



    In three years, everything is going to be better. I am sure all the ex-Foxconn employees will appreciate the help from the anti-Apple bloggers for making their lives so much better.



    (Unintended consequences from ill-informed, naive Western do-gooders)
  • Reply 60 of 122
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dbtinc View Post


    Ya know, somehow I don't seem to have much sympathy for the brutalized chinese worker. Once again - interventionalism at work here. If the workers in the worker's paradise are being abused let them deal with it but in the meantime and since they've stolen our jobs, I plan to take full advantage. As the old saw goes "get while the getting's good."



    "They've stolen our jobs"



    What?



    We gave them our jobs at our own expense.
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