You should believe me because I rely on facts, not hearsay or geographically-biased reports...and your reference to Rio is risible to say the least, when we all know that "rich" cities like New Orleans, Baltimore, Detroit, D.C., Buffalo, Miami, Philly all have homicide rates which are from double to triple the rates of a large "violent" city like São Paulo or even Rio.
Even if average wage levels for blue collar workers may not (yet) be as high as in the US, at least labor rights and safety nets in Brazil are VASTLY superior to the legal slave labor in US, where people struggle to have even SEVEN days of vacation a year, not to mention the totally insecure conditions that make one be hired one day and fired the next by ruthless employers.
Again, try to do your homework instead of thinking that São Paulo is in the middle of the Amazon jungle...and I say that both as a Brazilian AND someone married to an American girl (having been to many good and not-so-good parts of your country as well).
To believe some nonsensical allegation that São Paulo's Foxconn factories are gonna have "slaves" or "child" workers like in China is gullible, to say the least - unless you also think we speak Spanish, of course.
I provided published reports. You've provided nothing but your anti-US diatribes.
Not to mention, of course, that you're completely misquoting me. I specifically said (several times) that Brazil was better than China.
And stop with the stupid name-calling and allegations. Not everyone is as uneducated about foreign countries as you appear to be. As I said, I've been in Brazil (along with 27 other countries), so I have a fairly global perspective.
If apple can ask Foxconn to build in brazil, they can ask Foxconn to build in the USA. Our supply chain is not inferior.
Foxconn needs engineers, less regulation of factory design and waste outputs, less liability, and low wages as much as it needs a supply line. Access to all the South and North American markets is another huge plus. Steve Jobs said it pretty clearly to the President, "Those jobs are not coming back." Any other view of the situation is a pipe dream.
On a side note, this sounds like Foxconn decided to produce the robotics style factories in Brazil rather than replace the workers at the Chinese factory with robots. In China a factory to produce iPhones has hundreds of thousands of workers. They are only talking about 1000? Can any one else come up with an explanation for the difference?
So people came up with the infamous one-drop rule whereby anyone with a bit of African heritage is BLACK, no matter how WHITE he looks. In Brazil, on the other hand, at least 40% of the population is of mixed race - so even stupid afirmative action laws wouldn't apply there, because IN FACT most people living in slums are actually WHITE - prejudice there is against the poor, not against the colored.
Once more: Obama is a MULATTO, a biracial person, half-black/half-white if you prefer.
As for the "ironic" comments on the aforementioned rule, check below before spouting self-righteous words:
Um, Obama is called "black" because that's how he views himself. He self-identifies as black.
Why don't we ask the people in question? The only people who I ever hear spouting off about this "one drop" nonsense are white people who want to appear anti-racist and enlightened. How about we appreciate your diversity? You act like its offensive to call Obama black.
Normally, people who are darker identify themselves as "black", also sometimes to identify with part of their heritage. I refer to myself as "white" even though I have pigment.
Also, I don't know where you've been, but there isn't segregation where I'm from, and a lot of my friends are married to people of different races, with "mixed" offspring to boot.
Wage rates don't matter. What does matter is how many hours does someone have to work to afford a home or a refrigerator or food, etc.
Brazil was very smart. They told Apple to either build the products there or face huge import taxes. So Apple had no choice. In the U.S., we let companies like Apple do whatever they want. I don't want to criticize Apple too much because they are expanding the number of employees in the U.S. and most of the jobs are well-paying jobs. Even the retail jobs, which don't pay all that well, pay more than factory jobs would have if Apple had factories (whether directly or indirectly) in the U.S.
What does surprise me is that it's Foxconn who is building the Brazilian factory. I would have thought it would have been a Brazilian company.
My personal view, which I've expressed before is that ethical companies will build products close to the markets that they serve so that the people who buy the products get the benefits of the related factory jobs. .
No, Apple was very smart. Brazil didn't tell them anything. Like most imported products, an iPad will cost between 3-4x what it costs in the US. Import duties alone will double the price, the rest is freight and mostly price gouging, even when sold by Apple themselves. Then factor in the average Brazilian wage and that 4x becomes 8-10x. It's rediculous. What's more, if you think that now (soon maybe, no Brazilian made iPads are shipping yet even though they were supposed to start producong them last November), Brazilians will have access to iPads at comparable prices to the US, think again. Brazil is not China by a long shot, but Apple will certainly sell factory loads of Brazilian built iPads at even 2-3x what American pay for them. See? WIN, WIN situation! Just like the Brazilian auto industry! Cheers
It may be that one day, intercontinental shipping costs will severely impact profitability. Brazil servicing South America, Turkey servicing Europe and the Middle East, China servicing Asia and (eventually?), South Africa supplying Africa is a developing pattern that will permit overland transportation. Therefore, manufacturing will in all likelihood return to the U.S. or Canada to cover North America.
Did Steve Jobs say in his response to Obama's question, that 'those jobs would not be returning to the U.S.'? This might be telling in that Apple might be waiting until they have developed and refined robotic systems to the point where manufacturing in more (labour) expensive countries becomes attractive, in which case those jobs would not need to return.
As for the final two great continents, Antarctica is just magnificent but hardly in need of indigenous manufacturing of consumer goods and given Australia's population and demand, Apple will probably wear the cost of shipping.
Therefore, manufacturing will in all likelihood return to the U.S. or Canada to cover North America.
I would think Mexico or the many countries of Central America — still part of the N. American continent — is much more likely for a Foxconn factory. Large factories in well developed nations only seem feasible for excessively automated factories. While Foxconn is working to add millions of robots it's only when they can reduce their employees for a given factory will a move to the US or Canada be feasible.
Quote:
As for the final two great continents, Antarctica is just magnificent but hardly in need of indigenous manufacturing of consumer goods...
That penguin demographic might be important for the IPad one day, though I would expect them to be the Foxconn workers before that happens.
I would think Mexico or the many countries of Central America ? still part of the N. American continent ? is much more likely for a Foxconn factory. Large factories in well developed nations only seem feasible for excessively automated factories. While Foxconn is working to add millions of robots it's only when they can reduce their employees for a given factory will a move to the US or Canada be feasible.
That penguin demographic might be important for the IPad one day, though I would expect them to be the Foxconn workers before that happens.
I guess that at the moment, security and cost of manufacture are the issues, shipping it seems is quite cheap. Apparently for example, it costs about $25 per tonne to ship ore from Australia to Europe.
Obviously, from that photo posted of Chinese job applicants, they want to work at Apple in spite of the reputed poor working conditions.
Just to clarify something. they are NOT working at Apple. They are working for a company that has Apple as one of over a dozen clients.
Even if Apple demands better conditions for the workers that deal with their products, what about the other 800k or so people that make XBoxes etc. You know, the group that had a mass suicide threat a few weeks ago (and was larger than the total number of actual jumpers for like the last 5 years)
They need to build a plant here for insurance reasons. China may very well go ballistic One day.
Stranger things have happened.
One might assume the same for the US... Our own economy hasn't exactly turned around, despite the cheerful blather about the "recovery" you hear on the news.
I would think Mexico or the many countries of Central America ? still part of the N. American continent ? is much more likely for a Foxconn factory.
Which part of Mexico? Doesn't matter, I suppose; Apple could use their $100B to buy a private military and protect their factory from the drug lords.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
Large factories in well developed nations only seem feasible for excessively automated factories. While Foxconn is working to add millions of robots it's only when they can reduce their employees for a given factory will a move to the US or Canada be feasible.
They could use the robots as soldiers. The robots would be controlled by Siri. Don't make Siri mad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
That penguin demographic might be important for the IPad one day, though I would expect them to be the Foxconn workers before that happens.
One of the great ironies of the 21st century is that most of our marvelous hi-tech toys are made entirely by hand, in sweatshops, by desperate people whose pitiful wages can't purchase even one of the hugely profitable devices they make.
If you don't feel dirty, you aren't paying attention.
So you're saying if I get a job as a BMW mechanic or working in a Ferrari dealership, I should instantly be able to afford the products my employer sells?
There are lots of decently paid Apple Store employees who don't buy a high end Mac Pro outfitted with dual Cinema Displays because that would be rather expensive for them. Should we cry for them, too?
Perhaps the government can force every company to instantly make all of its products affordable to every one of its employees. That naturally would percolate down through every supplier that company does business with.
If a company in China makes components that are used in a Boeing 787, every damn one of them should be given an airplane. After all, they worked on it.
If you feel dirty, it's not necessarily because you're "paying attention," it may also be because you are a dingbat irrational fool who doesn't give much thought to why you believe what you do.
Comments
The US is superior... in wage expectations.
They need to build a plant here for insurance reasons. China may very well go ballistic One day.
Stranger things have happened.
You should believe me because I rely on facts, not hearsay or geographically-biased reports...and your reference to Rio is risible to say the least, when we all know that "rich" cities like New Orleans, Baltimore, Detroit, D.C., Buffalo, Miami, Philly all have homicide rates which are from double to triple the rates of a large "violent" city like São Paulo or even Rio.
Even if average wage levels for blue collar workers may not (yet) be as high as in the US, at least labor rights and safety nets in Brazil are VASTLY superior to the legal slave labor in US, where people struggle to have even SEVEN days of vacation a year, not to mention the totally insecure conditions that make one be hired one day and fired the next by ruthless employers.
Again, try to do your homework instead of thinking that São Paulo is in the middle of the Amazon jungle...and I say that both as a Brazilian AND someone married to an American girl (having been to many good and not-so-good parts of your country as well).
To believe some nonsensical allegation that São Paulo's Foxconn factories are gonna have "slaves" or "child" workers like in China is gullible, to say the least - unless you also think we speak Spanish, of course.
I provided published reports. You've provided nothing but your anti-US diatribes.
Not to mention, of course, that you're completely misquoting me. I specifically said (several times) that Brazil was better than China.
And stop with the stupid name-calling and allegations. Not everyone is as uneducated about foreign countries as you appear to be. As I said, I've been in Brazil (along with 27 other countries), so I have a fairly global perspective.
If apple can ask Foxconn to build in brazil, they can ask Foxconn to build in the USA. Our supply chain is not inferior.
Foxconn needs engineers, less regulation of factory design and waste outputs, less liability, and low wages as much as it needs a supply line. Access to all the South and North American markets is another huge plus. Steve Jobs said it pretty clearly to the President, "Those jobs are not coming back." Any other view of the situation is a pipe dream.
On a side note, this sounds like Foxconn decided to produce the robotics style factories in Brazil rather than replace the workers at the Chinese factory with robots. In China a factory to produce iPhones has hundreds of thousands of workers. They are only talking about 1000? Can any one else come up with an explanation for the difference?
Go Foxconn! Scouring the world for cheap labor so my tech can cost less.
Ditto's
So people came up with the infamous one-drop rule whereby anyone with a bit of African heritage is BLACK, no matter how WHITE he looks. In Brazil, on the other hand, at least 40% of the population is of mixed race - so even stupid afirmative action laws wouldn't apply there, because IN FACT most people living in slums are actually WHITE - prejudice there is against the poor, not against the colored.
Once more: Obama is a MULATTO, a biracial person, half-black/half-white if you prefer.
As for the "ironic" comments on the aforementioned rule, check below before spouting self-righteous words:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/halle-b...9#.TyhfF5joBsg
Um, Obama is called "black" because that's how he views himself. He self-identifies as black.
Why don't we ask the people in question? The only people who I ever hear spouting off about this "one drop" nonsense are white people who want to appear anti-racist and enlightened. How about we appreciate your diversity? You act like its offensive to call Obama black.
Normally, people who are darker identify themselves as "black", also sometimes to identify with part of their heritage. I refer to myself as "white" even though I have pigment.
Also, I don't know where you've been, but there isn't segregation where I'm from, and a lot of my friends are married to people of different races, with "mixed" offspring to boot.
Um, Obama is called "black" because that's how he views himself. He self-identifies as black..
Black is beautiful, baby.
They need to build a plant here for insurance reasons. China may very well go ballistic One day.
Stranger things have happened.
Brazil is that insurance.
Wage rates don't matter. What does matter is how many hours does someone have to work to afford a home or a refrigerator or food, etc.
Brazil was very smart. They told Apple to either build the products there or face huge import taxes. So Apple had no choice. In the U.S., we let companies like Apple do whatever they want. I don't want to criticize Apple too much because they are expanding the number of employees in the U.S. and most of the jobs are well-paying jobs. Even the retail jobs, which don't pay all that well, pay more than factory jobs would have if Apple had factories (whether directly or indirectly) in the U.S.
What does surprise me is that it's Foxconn who is building the Brazilian factory. I would have thought it would have been a Brazilian company.
My personal view, which I've expressed before is that ethical companies will build products close to the markets that they serve so that the people who buy the products get the benefits of the related factory jobs. .
No, Apple was very smart. Brazil didn't tell them anything. Like most imported products, an iPad will cost between 3-4x what it costs in the US. Import duties alone will double the price, the rest is freight and mostly price gouging, even when sold by Apple themselves. Then factor in the average Brazilian wage and that 4x becomes 8-10x. It's rediculous. What's more, if you think that now (soon maybe, no Brazilian made iPads are shipping yet even though they were supposed to start producong them last November), Brazilians will have access to iPads at comparable prices to the US, think again. Brazil is not China by a long shot, but Apple will certainly sell factory loads of Brazilian built iPads at even 2-3x what American pay for them. See? WIN, WIN situation! Just like the Brazilian auto industry! Cheers
Brazil is that insurance.
It may be that one day, intercontinental shipping costs will severely impact profitability. Brazil servicing South America, Turkey servicing Europe and the Middle East, China servicing Asia and (eventually?), South Africa supplying Africa is a developing pattern that will permit overland transportation. Therefore, manufacturing will in all likelihood return to the U.S. or Canada to cover North America.
Did Steve Jobs say in his response to Obama's question, that 'those jobs would not be returning to the U.S.'? This might be telling in that Apple might be waiting until they have developed and refined robotic systems to the point where manufacturing in more (labour) expensive countries becomes attractive, in which case those jobs would not need to return.
As for the final two great continents, Antarctica is just magnificent but hardly in need of indigenous manufacturing of consumer goods and given Australia's population and demand, Apple will probably wear the cost of shipping.
Al the best.
Therefore, manufacturing will in all likelihood return to the U.S. or Canada to cover North America.
I would think Mexico or the many countries of Central America — still part of the N. American continent — is much more likely for a Foxconn factory. Large factories in well developed nations only seem feasible for excessively automated factories. While Foxconn is working to add millions of robots it's only when they can reduce their employees for a given factory will a move to the US or Canada be feasible.
As for the final two great continents, Antarctica is just magnificent but hardly in need of indigenous manufacturing of consumer goods...
That penguin demographic might be important for the IPad one day, though I would expect them to be the Foxconn workers before that happens.
I would think Mexico or the many countries of Central America ? still part of the N. American continent ? is much more likely for a Foxconn factory. Large factories in well developed nations only seem feasible for excessively automated factories. While Foxconn is working to add millions of robots it's only when they can reduce their employees for a given factory will a move to the US or Canada be feasible.
That penguin demographic might be important for the IPad one day, though I would expect them to be the Foxconn workers before that happens.
I guess that at the moment, security and cost of manufacture are the issues, shipping it seems is quite cheap. Apparently for example, it costs about $25 per tonne to ship ore from Australia to Europe.
Obviously, from that photo posted of Chinese job applicants, they want to work at Apple in spite of the reputed poor working conditions.
Just to clarify something. they are NOT working at Apple. They are working for a company that has Apple as one of over a dozen clients.
Even if Apple demands better conditions for the workers that deal with their products, what about the other 800k or so people that make XBoxes etc. You know, the group that had a mass suicide threat a few weeks ago (and was larger than the total number of actual jumpers for like the last 5 years)
(35% of Brazilians are of mixed blood just as Obama, which is oddly called "black" in the US due to its racist "one drop" policy).
Actually he's called 'African American' because his father was from Kenya. Ya know, in Africa.
They need to build a plant here for insurance reasons. China may very well go ballistic One day.
Stranger things have happened.
One might assume the same for the US... Our own economy hasn't exactly turned around, despite the cheerful blather about the "recovery" you hear on the news.
Yep I heard about the Samsung ad, but Apple did announce the Mac with an ad at the superbowl.
That's a misconception. The Super Bowl ad was announcing a new Apple-branded sledgehammer that can destroy Big Brother's tele-screens.
I don't think anyone will exploit the Brazilian. I had one once and it hurt like hell.
Oh, wait...
Did the donkey survive?
They need to build a plant here for insurance reasons. China may very well go ballistic One day.
Stranger things have happened.
Name a cell phone that is made "here".
Because that would be really, really strange.
If apple can ask Foxconn to build in brazil, they can ask Foxconn to build in the USA. Our supply chain is not inferior.
Yeah... It is. Get over it. What is made here these days? Fat people and guns.
I would think Mexico or the many countries of Central America ? still part of the N. American continent ? is much more likely for a Foxconn factory.
Which part of Mexico? Doesn't matter, I suppose; Apple could use their $100B to buy a private military and protect their factory from the drug lords.
Large factories in well developed nations only seem feasible for excessively automated factories. While Foxconn is working to add millions of robots it's only when they can reduce their employees for a given factory will a move to the US or Canada be feasible.
They could use the robots as soldiers. The robots would be controlled by Siri. Don't make Siri mad.
That penguin demographic might be important for the IPad one day, though I would expect them to be the Foxconn workers before that happens.
The penguins would then be our last hope.
One of the great ironies of the 21st century is that most of our marvelous hi-tech toys are made entirely by hand, in sweatshops, by desperate people whose pitiful wages can't purchase even one of the hugely profitable devices they make.
If you don't feel dirty, you aren't paying attention.
So you're saying if I get a job as a BMW mechanic or working in a Ferrari dealership, I should instantly be able to afford the products my employer sells?
There are lots of decently paid Apple Store employees who don't buy a high end Mac Pro outfitted with dual Cinema Displays because that would be rather expensive for them. Should we cry for them, too?
Perhaps the government can force every company to instantly make all of its products affordable to every one of its employees. That naturally would percolate down through every supplier that company does business with.
If a company in China makes components that are used in a Boeing 787, every damn one of them should be given an airplane. After all, they worked on it.
If you feel dirty, it's not necessarily because you're "paying attention," it may also be because you are a dingbat irrational fool who doesn't give much thought to why you believe what you do.