Scribes and papyrus are a quaint notion today. Printing on the product of wasted forests will be as quaint a notion to our not-so-distant descendants.
I'm looking forward to an iPad with twice the area of the current one but lighter and longer lived on a charge lol! Apple has demonstrated that this is perhaps, not-such-wishful thinking. \
With the arrival of the flexible roll-up monitor screen, we shall be returning to the era of the scroll.
Actually I've left specific instructions to donate my body to science and have no grave or marker though I also stated that since I'll be dead I obviously won't care and that the living should do what they need to in order that suits them the best. I think I'm pragmatic... but perhaps I'm just an ass.
Oddly the number don't scale that way. To get essentially the same 265 PPI a 13.7" 4:3 would be about 2900x2180.
I was going to donate my body... turns out that no one wants an old asshole...
Actually, my ashes will be intermingled with those of my late wife...
one big advantage of using the iPad besides cost savings is that you can put all thousands of pages pages onto an iPad so you can refer back to everything.
if one council member for example raises an unexpected question like "I thought in the 2010 referendum on the parks issue we decided... " etc etc, everyone can actually refer back to the document.
Otherwise you'll be sending assistants to search through paper files , make copies etc.
The cost savings (on time, labour etc) on that is HUGE.
(reading case studies on groups using iPads is that now a lot of b.s is removed quickly as everyone can check the details for themselves from the actual files)
This is a big bonus which naysayers don't understand. Try shoving thousands of your office files (previous minutes, data, histories etc) if they were paper into your brief case.
that's why so many corporations is using iPads now. Think about it , for example engineers in a meeting can immediately refer to thousands of diagrams, drawings, spec sheets etc immediately.
and the advantage of iPads over even laptops is that they are more portable, you you walk around with them (again the engineer example as he/she goes around the site) etc.
iPad rules.
Gotta love people that don't read the thread. They are saving $250 per year. How many ipads does that buy?
I did not know you could also make phonecalls using an ipad as with the blackberry....
or is this comparison not telling the whole story...
I make phone calls all the time with my iPad. Plenty of apps for that. I use talkatone. What's great is that these phone calls use data. So now they're just paying for data with no expensive phone plans. And yes it works just as reliably. What's also great is that if you have a "google voice number" it becomes your iPads main phone number. So when I get call to that number it rings my phone, iPad and laptop.
With the iPad becoming a replacement for printing, and documents, and Cook's comment that the iPad and MBA will eventually be merging in functionality, I'd say Apple will have to be moving to make the iPad easier and more flexible to use for handling documents.
The current applications on the iPad are merely okay for the uses described in this article. iBooks does not allow PDF documents to be annotated, highlighted. GoodReaders does, but of course uses its own solution. The Kindle app supports PDF documents also, but I haven't used it. Navigation of PDF documents is primitive.
Also, these apps do not allow multiple documents to be open at a time in iBooks (or simulated), for example. This feature is necessary.
Assuming my read of Cook is correct, we should see the iPad becoming significantly more powerful and flexible as it moves to replace the MBA, perhaps including increasing iPad's size (and options for smaller to compete in price with competitors), merging of iOS and OSX (Apple has dropped the name from Mac OS X to just OS X), and MBPs becoming more like MBA on steroids (with hard drives through Thunderbolt optional).
How long will this take? Within 5 years? Anybody thinking less than that?
The calculation seem quite easy. If the cost is $200 per meeting, with city council meetings weekly, that is $10,000 per year in savings. Given the cost, the cost recovery for the switch to iPad is less than 2 years. Not bad.
Then, because Vancouver Washington has a population of about 165,000, I would expect many city committee meetings with documents needed and generated for these meetings, including minutes. In most cities, there will be several committee meetings every workday. Again estimating perhaps 2 per day, 5 days per week, 50 weeks, and each committee meeting cost savings at $50 per meeting, that cost savings would be 2 x 5 x 50 x 50 = $25,000.
So, perhaps we are talking about $35,000/year savings. I'm ignoring the Blackberry savings since the article does not indicate that number of Blackberrys being replaced; in any case, this cost savings will be de minimus.
You didn't read the article did you? I thought not.
The City of Vancouver saves more then just the cost of paper. You don't suppose all that text gets on the paper for free, do you? Counting the saving of switching from RIM BlackBerries iPads, at $336 per year per device.
Plus the costs of operating copy machines, leasing them, and buying toner, et cetera, the average city pays around 5 cents a copy. Take THAT times 50K copies and you get an additional $2,500 per year.
Reading the rest of the story, you learn that this savings was made by only using the iPads for City Council meetings. It can be expanded beyond this to further uses and savings.
Reading comprehension... it's a good skill to use.
So they're getting rid of the copy machines and firing the clerks who run them? Cause that's the only way this works in the city's favor.
A decent office copier makes 70-100 copies per minute. Even smaller ones make 40 or so. Let's use 50 copies per minute as a round number. 50,000 copies would take 1,000 minutes, or 17 hours. Make it 18 hours overall counting loading paper, etc. Hell, make it 20 hours. Round number. If the office is open 250 days a year (weekdays, holidays off) for 8 hours a day, an average of 1% of each work day (or 5 minutes per day) spent on copying. Copying time is simply absorbed into the day to day routine.
There's simply no way this is cost effective if it's only used for council meetings.
Of course, it has a lot of intangible benefits. Council members should have every necessary document at their fingertips, not just meeting handouts. They can quickly access a lot of information, keep usable notes, and make calendar appointments on the spot. All good things that could make iPads worthwhile, but saving 10 boxes of paper is not that big a deal. Sorry.
Anyone else find it interesting and ironic that it is a Canadian city replacing a Canadian product with an Apple/American product? I would bet they thought long and hard before making this switch.
And if it was just switching to a tablet, they could have gone with a RIMM tablet. The fact they went with an Apple tablet may mean that the ecosystem, as well as ease and cost of use, is important as well to the purchasing decisions made. Also, the data cost savings will be a recurring savings for the life of the tablet
So they're getting rid of the copy machines and firing the clerks who run them? Cause that's the only way this works in the city's favor.
There's simply no way this is cost effective if it's only used for council meetings.
Of course, it has a lot of intangible benefits. Council members should have every necessary document at their fingertips, not just meeting handouts. They can quickly access a lot of information, keep usable notes, and make calendar appointments on the spot. All good things that could make iPads worthwhile, but saving 10 boxes of paper is not that big a deal. Sorry.
One extra cost is the cost of disposal of 50K sheets of paper(always interesting that disposal costs are never usually factored into the equation). Depending on the sensitivity of the paperwork, it may need to be disposed of in a secure manner which also adds cost. And storage eventually becomes a big deal. If you don't have to support an extra area to store the documents in an area where they are accessible, that is an additional cost savings.
You didn't read the article did you? I thought not.
The City of Vancouver saves more then just the cost of paper. You don't suppose all that text gets on the paper for free, do you? Counting the saving of switching from RIM BlackBerries iPads, at $336 per year per device.
Plus the costs of operating copy machines, leasing them, and buying toner, et cetera, the average city pays around 5 cents a copy. Take THAT times 50K copies and you get an additional $2,500 per year.
Reading the rest of the story, you learn that this savings was made by only using the iPads for City Council meetings. It can be expanded beyond this to further uses and savings.
Reading comprehension... it's a good skill to use.
Good summary. There are also the USER benefits, as well as suggested below.
Quote:
Originally Posted by waldobushman
The calculation seem quite easy. If the cost is $200 per meeting, with city council meetings weekly, that is $10,000 per year in savings. Given the cost, the cost recovery for the switch to iPad is less than 2 years. Not bad.
Then, because Vancouver has a population of about 600,000, I would expect many city committee meetings with documents needed and generated for these meetings, including minutes. In most cities, there will be several committee meetings every workday. Again estimating perhaps 2 per day, 5 days per week, 50 weeks, and each committee meeting cost savings at $50 per meeting, that cost savings would be 2 x 5 x 50 x 50 = $25,000.
So, perhaps we are talking about $35,000/year savings. I'm ignoring the Blackberry savings since the article does not indicate that number of Blackberrys being replaced; in any case, this cost savings will be de minimus.
I think your numbers are too high. I doubt if they're saving that much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conrail
So they're getting rid of the copy machines and firing the clerks who run them? Cause that's the only way this works in the city's favor.
A decent office copier makes 70-100 copies per minute. Even smaller ones make 40 or so. Let's use 50 copies per minute as a round number. 50,000 copies would take 1,000 minutes, or 17 hours. Make it 18 hours overall counting loading paper, etc. Hell, make it 20 hours. Round number. If the office is open 250 days a year (weekdays, holidays off) for 8 hours a day, an average of 1% of each work day (or 5 minutes per day) spent on copying. Copying time is simply absorbed into the day to day routine.
There's simply no way this is cost effective if it's only used for council meetings.
Once again, you keep ignoring the real costs.
First, paper at at least $250.
If the copier is leased (as many people do), add $0.01 per page - for $500.
Add in toner. Probably another couple hundred.
Then, not only do you have an employee standing there making the copies, but carrying papers from one office to another, carrying them to the copier, distributing them, and so on.
And, of course, the cost and hassle of copy machine breakdowns.
Ultimately, I would rather have my city employees doing something important rather than wasting their time on a copy machine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conrail
Of course, it has a lot of intangible benefits. Council members should have every necessary document at their fingertips, not just meeting handouts. They can quickly access a lot of information, keep usable notes, and make calendar appointments on the spot. All good things that could make iPads worthwhile, but saving 10 boxes of paper is not that big a deal. Sorry.
The highlighted part is the important part. Vancouver elected city officials to figure out how to manage the city and those officials decided on the iPad. If you don't like it, vote them out. But before you do it, think about what they accomplished:
- Saved enough money to pay for the iPads.
- Freed up some employee time which can be used to serve the public
- Probably most importantly, sent a message that paper is waste and should be minimized. If they stick to that message and reinforce it, who knows how many thousands or millions of unnecessary documents would not be printed? Sometimes, symbolism matters - and they're trying to create a 'green' culture.
Anyone else find it interesting and ironic that it is a Canadian city replacing a Canadian product with an Apple/American product? I would bet they thought long and hard before making this switch.
iPad needs simple and secure encryption of the device and this encryption assured to Enterprise management. Encryption of files as well. Since the apps operate independently, this needs to be part of the SDK thereby assuring Enterprise that the data is protected when stored to complement VPN options when data is in motion.
Checkpoints Pointsec and Apple new FileVault are good models for iPhone and iPad. This would really launch to iPad and iPhone into all Government markets as well as,contractors supporting the Government
My bet is Windows 8 will deliver this capability on its tablets.
With the iPad becoming a replacement for printing, and documents, and Cook's comment that the iPad and MBA will eventually be merging in functionality, I'd say Apple will have to be moving to make the iPad easier and more flexible to use for handling documents.
The current applications on the iPad are merely okay for the uses described in this article. iBooks does not allow PDF documents to be annotated, highlighted. GoodReaders does, but of course uses its own solution. The Kindle app supports PDF documents also, but I haven't used it. Navigation of PDF documents is primitive.
Also, these apps do not allow multiple documents to be open at a time in iBooks (or simulated), for example. This feature is necessary.
I was actually jealous of a co-worker's blackberry/play book. He can edit a word document, PDF it, and send it out from his BB. No need for downloading an app. The half-assed printing (including PDF) disappoints me with iOS.
50k pages is about 100 reams of paper at $2.50 per ream... or about $250 per year. Printing costs about double that, so congratulations Vancouver! You've saved $500 per year by spending many thousands of dollars on Apple products!
Where else but government can we hear how they save $1 by spending $100?
I thought they were claiming that they saved $50,000/year by switching to iPads. Then had to re-read the article again..
"Many leaders had blackberry smart phones for email access, but with small video screens, they were difficult to reply in email."
I don't quite get this. RIM Blackberry is a phone vs. iPad a table, so I'm guessing the city employees now need a phone AND a tablet? I'm also guessing they are not getting iPhones any time soon since iphone's display is too small?
50k pages is about 100 reams of paper at $2.50 per ream... or about $250 per year. Printing costs about double that, so congratulations Vancouver! You've saved $500 per year by spending many thousands of dollars on Apple products!
Where else but government can we hear how they save $1 by spending $100?
Where else can we have jerks that sign up just to troll the boards with their "everything Apple sucks and users are lame" comments.
I suppose you are anti electronic textbooks because kids shouldn't be given dumb toys to use in school. if a slate and wax pencil was good enough for you then it is good enough for all the little brats yes.
About 15 minutes apart. I wonder if the IP addresses are the same.
They likely are, so report them and have the moderators kick them out for it. Meanwhile put them on your ignore list and we can all just let them sit in their corner until they are escorted out
Comments
Thought crossed my mind!
Scribes and papyrus are a quaint notion today. Printing on the product of wasted forests will be as quaint a notion to our not-so-distant descendants.
I'm looking forward to an iPad with twice the area of the current one but lighter and longer lived on a charge lol! Apple has demonstrated that this is perhaps, not-such-wishful thinking.
With the arrival of the flexible roll-up monitor screen, we shall be returning to the era of the scroll.
Cheers
Actually I've left specific instructions to donate my body to science and have no grave or marker though I also stated that since I'll be dead I obviously won't care and that the living should do what they need to in order that suits them the best. I think I'm pragmatic... but perhaps I'm just an ass.
Oddly the number don't scale that way. To get essentially the same 265 PPI a 13.7" 4:3 would be about 2900x2180.
I was going to donate my body... turns out that no one wants an old asshole...
Actually, my ashes will be intermingled with those of my late wife...
one big advantage of using the iPad besides cost savings is that you can put all thousands of pages pages onto an iPad so you can refer back to everything.
if one council member for example raises an unexpected question like "I thought in the 2010 referendum on the parks issue we decided... " etc etc, everyone can actually refer back to the document.
Otherwise you'll be sending assistants to search through paper files , make copies etc.
The cost savings (on time, labour etc) on that is HUGE.
(reading case studies on groups using iPads is that now a lot of b.s is removed quickly as everyone can check the details for themselves from the actual files)
This is a big bonus which naysayers don't understand. Try shoving thousands of your office files (previous minutes, data, histories etc) if they were paper into your brief case.
that's why so many corporations is using iPads now. Think about it , for example engineers in a meeting can immediately refer to thousands of diagrams, drawings, spec sheets etc immediately.
and the advantage of iPads over even laptops is that they are more portable, you you walk around with them (again the engineer example as he/she goes around the site) etc.
iPad rules.
Gotta love people that don't read the thread. They are saving $250 per year. How many ipads does that buy?
Gotta love people that don't read the thread. They are saving $250 per year. How many ipads does that buy?
"As such, Vancouver estimates savings of up to $336 per year for each iPad that replaces a BlackBerry."
I did not know you could also make phonecalls using an ipad as with the blackberry....
or is this comparison not telling the whole story...
I make phone calls all the time with my iPad. Plenty of apps for that. I use talkatone. What's great is that these phone calls use data. So now they're just paying for data with no expensive phone plans. And yes it works just as reliably. What's also great is that if you have a "google voice number" it becomes your iPads main phone number. So when I get call to that number it rings my phone, iPad and laptop.
The current applications on the iPad are merely okay for the uses described in this article. iBooks does not allow PDF documents to be annotated, highlighted. GoodReaders does, but of course uses its own solution. The Kindle app supports PDF documents also, but I haven't used it. Navigation of PDF documents is primitive.
Also, these apps do not allow multiple documents to be open at a time in iBooks (or simulated), for example. This feature is necessary.
Assuming my read of Cook is correct, we should see the iPad becoming significantly more powerful and flexible as it moves to replace the MBA, perhaps including increasing iPad's size (and options for smaller to compete in price with competitors), merging of iOS and OSX (Apple has dropped the name from Mac OS X to just OS X), and MBPs becoming more like MBA on steroids (with hard drives through Thunderbolt optional).
How long will this take? Within 5 years? Anybody thinking less than that?
Then, because Vancouver Washington has a population of about 165,000, I would expect many city committee meetings with documents needed and generated for these meetings, including minutes. In most cities, there will be several committee meetings every workday. Again estimating perhaps 2 per day, 5 days per week, 50 weeks, and each committee meeting cost savings at $50 per meeting, that cost savings would be 2 x 5 x 50 x 50 = $25,000.
So, perhaps we are talking about $35,000/year savings. I'm ignoring the Blackberry savings since the article does not indicate that number of Blackberrys being replaced; in any case, this cost savings will be de minimus.
You didn't read the article did you? I thought not.
The City of Vancouver saves more then just the cost of paper. You don't suppose all that text gets on the paper for free, do you? Counting the saving of switching from RIM BlackBerries iPads, at $336 per year per device.
Plus the costs of operating copy machines, leasing them, and buying toner, et cetera, the average city pays around 5 cents a copy. Take THAT times 50K copies and you get an additional $2,500 per year.
Reading the rest of the story, you learn that this savings was made by only using the iPads for City Council meetings. It can be expanded beyond this to further uses and savings.
Reading comprehension... it's a good skill to use.
So they're getting rid of the copy machines and firing the clerks who run them? Cause that's the only way this works in the city's favor.
A decent office copier makes 70-100 copies per minute. Even smaller ones make 40 or so. Let's use 50 copies per minute as a round number. 50,000 copies would take 1,000 minutes, or 17 hours. Make it 18 hours overall counting loading paper, etc. Hell, make it 20 hours. Round number. If the office is open 250 days a year (weekdays, holidays off) for 8 hours a day, an average of 1% of each work day (or 5 minutes per day) spent on copying. Copying time is simply absorbed into the day to day routine.
There's simply no way this is cost effective if it's only used for council meetings.
Of course, it has a lot of intangible benefits. Council members should have every necessary document at their fingertips, not just meeting handouts. They can quickly access a lot of information, keep usable notes, and make calendar appointments on the spot. All good things that could make iPads worthwhile, but saving 10 boxes of paper is not that big a deal. Sorry.
And if it was just switching to a tablet, they could have gone with a RIMM tablet. The fact they went with an Apple tablet may mean that the ecosystem, as well as ease and cost of use, is important as well to the purchasing decisions made. Also, the data cost savings will be a recurring savings for the life of the tablet
So they're getting rid of the copy machines and firing the clerks who run them? Cause that's the only way this works in the city's favor.
There's simply no way this is cost effective if it's only used for council meetings.
Of course, it has a lot of intangible benefits. Council members should have every necessary document at their fingertips, not just meeting handouts. They can quickly access a lot of information, keep usable notes, and make calendar appointments on the spot. All good things that could make iPads worthwhile, but saving 10 boxes of paper is not that big a deal. Sorry.
One extra cost is the cost of disposal of 50K sheets of paper(always interesting that disposal costs are never usually factored into the equation). Depending on the sensitivity of the paperwork, it may need to be disposed of in a secure manner which also adds cost. And storage eventually becomes a big deal. If you don't have to support an extra area to store the documents in an area where they are accessible, that is an additional cost savings.
You didn't read the article did you? I thought not.
The City of Vancouver saves more then just the cost of paper. You don't suppose all that text gets on the paper for free, do you? Counting the saving of switching from RIM BlackBerries iPads, at $336 per year per device.
Plus the costs of operating copy machines, leasing them, and buying toner, et cetera, the average city pays around 5 cents a copy. Take THAT times 50K copies and you get an additional $2,500 per year.
Reading the rest of the story, you learn that this savings was made by only using the iPads for City Council meetings. It can be expanded beyond this to further uses and savings.
Reading comprehension... it's a good skill to use.
Good summary. There are also the USER benefits, as well as suggested below.
The calculation seem quite easy. If the cost is $200 per meeting, with city council meetings weekly, that is $10,000 per year in savings. Given the cost, the cost recovery for the switch to iPad is less than 2 years. Not bad.
Then, because Vancouver has a population of about 600,000, I would expect many city committee meetings with documents needed and generated for these meetings, including minutes. In most cities, there will be several committee meetings every workday. Again estimating perhaps 2 per day, 5 days per week, 50 weeks, and each committee meeting cost savings at $50 per meeting, that cost savings would be 2 x 5 x 50 x 50 = $25,000.
So, perhaps we are talking about $35,000/year savings. I'm ignoring the Blackberry savings since the article does not indicate that number of Blackberrys being replaced; in any case, this cost savings will be de minimus.
I think your numbers are too high. I doubt if they're saving that much.
So they're getting rid of the copy machines and firing the clerks who run them? Cause that's the only way this works in the city's favor.
A decent office copier makes 70-100 copies per minute. Even smaller ones make 40 or so. Let's use 50 copies per minute as a round number. 50,000 copies would take 1,000 minutes, or 17 hours. Make it 18 hours overall counting loading paper, etc. Hell, make it 20 hours. Round number. If the office is open 250 days a year (weekdays, holidays off) for 8 hours a day, an average of 1% of each work day (or 5 minutes per day) spent on copying. Copying time is simply absorbed into the day to day routine.
There's simply no way this is cost effective if it's only used for council meetings.
Once again, you keep ignoring the real costs.
First, paper at at least $250.
If the copier is leased (as many people do), add $0.01 per page - for $500.
Add in toner. Probably another couple hundred.
Then, not only do you have an employee standing there making the copies, but carrying papers from one office to another, carrying them to the copier, distributing them, and so on.
And, of course, the cost and hassle of copy machine breakdowns.
Ultimately, I would rather have my city employees doing something important rather than wasting their time on a copy machine.
Of course, it has a lot of intangible benefits. Council members should have every necessary document at their fingertips, not just meeting handouts. They can quickly access a lot of information, keep usable notes, and make calendar appointments on the spot. All good things that could make iPads worthwhile, but saving 10 boxes of paper is not that big a deal. Sorry.
The highlighted part is the important part. Vancouver elected city officials to figure out how to manage the city and those officials decided on the iPad. If you don't like it, vote them out. But before you do it, think about what they accomplished:
- Saved enough money to pay for the iPads.
- Freed up some employee time which can be used to serve the public
- Probably most importantly, sent a message that paper is waste and should be minimized. If they stick to that message and reinforce it, who knows how many thousands or millions of unnecessary documents would not be printed? Sometimes, symbolism matters - and they're trying to create a 'green' culture.
Anyone else find it interesting and ironic that it is a Canadian city replacing a Canadian product with an Apple/American product? I would bet they thought long and hard before making this switch.
Its Vancouver Washington.
Checkpoints Pointsec and Apple new FileVault are good models for iPhone and iPad. This would really launch to iPad and iPhone into all Government markets as well as,contractors supporting the Government
My bet is Windows 8 will deliver this capability on its tablets.
Its Vancouver Washington.
My bad. I guess I need to go back to school and brush up on my reading skills
With the iPad becoming a replacement for printing, and documents, and Cook's comment that the iPad and MBA will eventually be merging in functionality, I'd say Apple will have to be moving to make the iPad easier and more flexible to use for handling documents.
The current applications on the iPad are merely okay for the uses described in this article. iBooks does not allow PDF documents to be annotated, highlighted. GoodReaders does, but of course uses its own solution. The Kindle app supports PDF documents also, but I haven't used it. Navigation of PDF documents is primitive.
Also, these apps do not allow multiple documents to be open at a time in iBooks (or simulated), for example. This feature is necessary.
I was actually jealous of a co-worker's blackberry/play book. He can edit a word document, PDF it, and send it out from his BB. No need for downloading an app. The half-assed printing (including PDF) disappoints me with iOS.
Oh well... Stock up again today...
I was going to donate my body... turns out that no one wants an old asshole...
Actually, my ashes will be intermingled with those of my late wife...
Old guys like us, Dick, are actually very "green" oriented. When they cremate us they don't even have to turn on the gas... we supply our own.
50k pages is about 100 reams of paper at $2.50 per ream... or about $250 per year. Printing costs about double that, so congratulations Vancouver! You've saved $500 per year by spending many thousands of dollars on Apple products!
Where else but government can we hear how they save $1 by spending $100?
I thought they were claiming that they saved $50,000/year by switching to iPads. Then had to re-read the article again..
"Many leaders had blackberry smart phones for email access, but with small video screens, they were difficult to reply in email."
I don't quite get this. RIM Blackberry is a phone vs. iPad a table, so I'm guessing the city employees now need a phone AND a tablet? I'm also guessing they are not getting iPhones any time soon since iphone's display is too small?
50k pages is about 100 reams of paper at $2.50 per ream... or about $250 per year. Printing costs about double that, so congratulations Vancouver! You've saved $500 per year by spending many thousands of dollars on Apple products!
Where else but government can we hear how they save $1 by spending $100?
Where else can we have jerks that sign up just to troll the boards with their "everything Apple sucks and users are lame" comments.
I suppose you are anti electronic textbooks because kids shouldn't be given dumb toys to use in school. if a slate and wax pencil was good enough for you then it is good enough for all the little brats yes.
About 15 minutes apart. I wonder if the IP addresses are the same.
They likely are, so report them and have the moderators kick them out for it. Meanwhile put them on your ignore list and we can all just let them sit in their corner until they are escorted out