<p> </p><div class="quote-container"> <span>Quote:</span> <div class="quote-block"> Originally Posted by <strong>Tallest Skil</strong> <a href="/t/149589/tim-cook-says-windows-8-style-tablet-pc-convergence-wont-please-anyone/80#post_2100899"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" /></a><br /> <br /> <p> </p> <p> I see. And oh, he's not. I feel it's a legitimate worry for them, as well.</p> </div></div><p> </p><p> I posted this in another thread and IMO it applies here too.</p><p> </p><p> Quote:</p><div class="quote-block"> <p> Desktop integration and seamless transitions.</p> <p> <br /> If Microsoft succeeds in doing what they're trying to do they will enable seamless flow between the desktop and tablet. Microsoft has always held sway over the business market for it's ease of centralized management compared to it's *nix brethren. If Apple can't manage to nit things together with iOS and OSX and Microsoft can with a unified Windows 8 platform then they will win (long term).</p> <p> </p> <p> Consumers on the other hand will choose what makes their life easiest and is essentially the cheapest (TCO) solution. That right now is Windows desktop running iTunes syncing to an Apple mobile device. If Microsoft can make it cheaper, easier and more reliable to do than Apple then Microsoft will win the consumer market as well. This will be a much greater challenge as the $499 price point for the iPad is pretty damn cheap and the iPhone (with iOS) is really the best mobile platform. That can change easily if Microsoft can woo popular developers as well as create main stream software for use with the entire platform (remember Microsoft is a software company). They already have a stellar phone manufacturer (Nokia) in their pocket with an established loyal consumer base (Europe).</p></div><p> </p>
It's an interesting point. But things are changing there too. Apple's Mac sales to medium and large businesses is way up over the past two years. But it's expected that Apple will sell over $10 billion in iPads to business this year alone, and $16 billion in 2013. They sold over $6 billion there in 2011. This is a tremendous number, and increase. With iPhones making their own big way in, Apple is already in business in a major way. Desktop and notebooks aren't the only business tools anymore.
During the call early this evening Apple said that they had been hiring people to specifically deal with the enterprise in areas such as iPad and iPhone adoption, and other areas as well, which I assume to be macs.
They already are involved with companies such as Unisys, and others, who are integrators. That is, they get the proper hardware and software together, even writing some for companies.
I wonder if Apple's "recent bridge burning" precludes it, or integrators from offering a hardware/software server solution. Apple already has software for server, SAN, shared application processing...
Unfortunately, there is no server class hardware that can [legally] run this software.
As FCP X matures, I suspect that Apple will implement shared, concurrent editing of Projects and Events -- an SQL database is used to manage each, which would greatly simplify implementation of this capability.
Further, by having content on a central store (local/backroom/cloud) -- it could be accessible from anywhere.
While I am not sanguine about using a Google service for this -- the concept is valid.
I posted this:
Michael Cioni describes a workflow where they used iTunes Podcasting to submit dailies from the set of The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo. The video was shot in 5K/4K in Sweden, copies were rendered in h264 720p and Podcast as dailies to the US.
Michael doesn't specify, but I suspect that the "Podcast Files" were stored on a computer on the set (as opposed to being uploaded to Apple's Servers), and linked via iTunes.
Now, take that a step further and imagine FCP X running in iCloud and accessing the files.
FCP X doesn't support concurrent multiuser editing... yet.
But the SQL database implementation of both Events and Projects means that this can be readily implemented on the future.
Combine that with all the metadata and search goodness of FCP X and we would really have something.
Tim is right. With Win 8 and Metro UI, it's like putting the toaster in front of the refrigerator; almost every time you want to open the fridge, you have to move the toaster.
Actually, it's the other way 'round -- the fridge is in front... You can't even see the toaster.
<p> The iPad still is a toy. MS wants to create a better tablet. Like the tablets they've been making since the turn of the century. Like the tablets Bill Gates preached about right in front of Steve Jobs during an interview in 2007 BEFORE the iPad came out.</p><p> </p><p> I think it's safe to say that Microsoft wants to perfect their tablet. And the iPad is not and never will be a tablet. It's a giant iPhone.</p>
coulda, shoulda, woulda but <strong> stylus killed the win-d-ows tab-let </strong>
(sung it to the tune of "video killed the radio star") lol
<p> </p><div class="quote-container"> <span>Quote:</span> <div class="quote-block"> Originally Posted by <strong>markbyrn</strong> <a href="/t/149589/tim-cook-says-windows-8-style-tablet-pc-convergence-wont-please-anyone/40#post_2100596"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" /></a><br /> <br /> <p> Tim is right. With Win 8 and Metro UI, it's like putting the toaster in front of the refrigerator; almost every time you want to open the fridge, you have to move the toaster. </p> </div></div><p> </p><p> Wow... great analogy!</p><p> </p><p> I have yet to install the Windows 8 CP... (I downloaded it though)... but I'm imagining it being a lot like your example.</p><p> </p><p> As of right now... all my programs are regular ol' Windows programs. I'm pretty used to the way they work... and I've never said to myself "boy... the Windows UI needs to be all changed around..."</p><p> </p><p> I can't even imagine many of my favorite programs becoming Metro apps any time soon. So why do I need Metro?</p><p> </p><p> I have all my favorite Windows programs pinned to the Start Menu in Windows 7. It stays out of the way until I click the blue orb. I like it. It's like a launcher to me.</p><p> </p><p> With Windows 8 and the Metro Start Screen... this giant thing pops up and take over the entire screen. That seems kinda obtrusive... compared to the Start Menu we've been using for the last decade.</p><p> </p><p> Although I'm usually the first person to say "suck it up and embrace the change" whenever a new thing come out... this particular time has me scratching my head.</p><p> </p><p> I guess I should reserve my judgement until I actually play with Windows 8 myself.... but I have watched dozens of videos on the subject. As of right now... the Metro UI (on the desktop) seems like it will get in the way whenever I use regular Windows programs.</p><p> </p><p> But I totally understand Metro on a tablet.... with its own set of Metro apps.</p>
I have Win8 CP installed in a VM on my Mac and that's exactly the impression I get. A touch screen UI and a desktop UI should have two completely differ approaches. A mouse is a poor substitute for a finger. And multitouch gestures with a mouse? And choices that make sense for a ten-inch screen (say, running all apps full screen, suspending background apps) fit poorly when you have a 27-inch screen, or say, multiple monitors and want to multitask.
Most reviews have focused on "how am I going to deal with this" and "I think I can tolerate this without too much annoyance." Not exactly the recipe for a winning user experience.
Here's the conclusion from a long review on Ars (emphasis mine):
Quote:
Almost great
The Windows 8 desktop experience is best summed up with one word: frustrating. It takes the already solid Windows 7 experience and makes some valuable, desirable improvements. The Start screen is an effective Start menu replacement. As I've written previously, the Metro apps themselves work well with the mouse and a keyboard: writing applications that are equally comfortable with touch and mouse seems possible. All the different pieces that you need for a good desktop operating system are there.
They just don't fit together well. For tablet users, the whole is probably greater than the sum of the parts, and the individual decisions add up to a slick touch environment. But they're problematic for dedicated desktop users, and mixed Metro/desktop usage looks like a real mess.
The only way to make the experience work smoothly is to ignore the Metro parts (aside from the Start screen). And if you're going to do that, what's the point of giving desktop users Metro apps at all?
<p> </p><div class="quote-container"> <span>Quote:</span> <div class="quote-block"> Originally Posted by <strong>melgross</strong> <a href="/t/149589/tim-cook-says-windows-8-style-tablet-pc-convergence-wont-please-anyone/40#post_2100553"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" /></a><br /> <br /> <br /> During the call early this evening Apple said that they had been hiring people to specifically deal with the enterprise in areas such as iPad and iPhone adoption, and other areas as well, which I assume to be macs.<br /> They already are involved with companies such as Unisys, and others, who are integrators. That is, they get the proper hardware and software together, even writing some for companies.</div></div><p> </p><p> I wonder if Apple's "recent bridge burning" precludes it, or integrators from offering a hardware/software server solution. Apple already has software for server, SAN, shared application processing...</p><p> </p><p> Unfortunately, there is no server class hardware that can [legally] run this software.</p><p> </p><p> As FCP X matures, I suspect that Apple will implement shared, concurrent editing of Projects and Events -- an SQL database is used to manage each, which would greatly simplify implementation of this capability.</p><p> </p><p> Further, by having content on a central store (local/backroom/cloud) -- it could be accessible from anywhere.</p><p> </p><p> Here's an article that discusses this:</p><p> </p><p> <a href="http://fcp.co/hardware-and-software/pro/809-google-drive-and-we-video-collaborative-editing-does-this-change-everything">http://fcp.co/hardware-and-software/pro/809-google-drive-and-we-video-collaborative-editing-does-this-change-everything</a></p><p> </p><p> </p><p> While I am not sanguine about using a Google service for this -- the concept is valid.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> I posted this:</p><p> </p><div class="postText" style="color: rgb(204, 204, 204); line-height: 14px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 28px; margin-bottom: 5px; margin-left: 0px; "> <span style="color:#000000;">Michael Cioni describes a workflow where they used iTunes Podcasting to submit dailies from the set of The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo. The video was shot in 5K/4K in Sweden, copies were rendered in h264 720p and Podcast as dailies to the US.</span><br /> </div><div class="postText" style="color: rgb(204, 204, 204); line-height: 14px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 28px; margin-bottom: 5px; margin-left: 0px; "> <span style="color:#000000;"><a href="http://fcp.co/final-cut-pro/news/732-michael-cioni-talks-4k-workflow-and-fcp-proxies-for-the-girl-with-the-dragon-tattoo">http://fcp.co/final-cut-pro/news/732-michael-cioni-talks-4k-workflow-and-fcp-proxies-for-the-girl-with-the-dragon-tattoo</a><br /> <br /> The workflow is described at about 22:00.<br /> <br /> Michael doesn't specify, but I suspect that the "Podcast Files" were stored on a computer on the set (as opposed to being uploaded to Apple's Servers), and linked via iTunes.<br /> <br /> Now, take that a step further and imagine FCP X running in iCloud and accessing the files.<br /> <br /> FCP X doesn't support concurrent multiuser editing... yet.<br /> <br /> But the SQL database implementation of both Events and Projects means that this can be readily implemented on the future.<br /> <br /> Combine that with all the metadata and search goodness of FCP X and we would really have something.</span></div><div> </div><div class="stat_elem"> </div>
From what I've read, Adobe's new cloud service will offer some of that as well, though not concurrent editing. I don't have a use for it. Maybe in past years. But things are moving that way. We really need a much faster Internet for this to work well, and cell service, while getting much faster is too limiting because of bandwidth limits.
Convergence in OS X Lion-> Mountain Lion is about converging Services to provide more depth and breadth to the OS X ecosystem, not about OS X reabsorbing iOS.
As usual wrong. It does absorb a lot of shit. Lion did as well.
It's an interesting point. But things are changing there too. Apple's Mac sales to medium and large businesses is way up over the past two years. But it's expected that Apple will sell over $10 billion in iPads to business this year alone, and $16 billion in 2013. They sold over $6 billion there in 2011. This is a tremendous number, and increase. With iPhones making their own big way in, Apple is already in business in a major way. Desktop and notebooks aren't the only business tools anymore.
I completely agree the iPad (as well as every other tablet) will continue to grow. The tablet market is very anemic right now and it's growing by leaps everyday. That will level out with time though and even before that tipping point decisions will be based more so on integration and less so on emotion on an exponential curve but... nobody knows the future. We'll just have to wait and see what happens. It took Apple 20 years to come back from it's battle with Microsoft in the late 80's/early 90's. I don't think it will take Microsoft 20 years to penetrate the tablet market with a very usable product.
I partially disagree. I don't have a single problem with combining the two. I just think there needs to be a CLEAR separation of the two. Instead of jumping back and forth between the desktop and Metro, why not just let the user choose the interface they want? I would use the desktop at home and use the Metro while on tablet in the wild. BUT, I would really like the option of hooking up a keyboard, mouse, stylus, etc. and use the desktop UI while traveling so that I could have more capabilities without the need for a dedicated laptop.
Why are people not able to see that there is another option?
I partially disagree. I don't have a single problem with combining the two. I just think there needs to be a CLEAR separation of the two. Instead of jumping back and forth between the desktop and Metro, why not just let the user choose the interface they want? I would use the desktop at home and use the Metro while on tablet in the wild. BUT, I would really like the option of hooking up a keyboard, mouse, stylus, etc. and use the desktop UI while traveling so that I could have more capabilities without the need for a dedicated laptop.
Why are people not able to see that there is another option?
I was just thinking about this... For example you could have a MacBook Air with a detachable screen that would behave exactly like an iPad when the screen was detached, and exactly like a Mac when it was connected.
Comments
Even better, let's see a photoshop that puts a toaster coming out of William "The Refridgerator" Perry's stomach
It's an interesting point. But things are changing there too. Apple's Mac sales to medium and large businesses is way up over the past two years. But it's expected that Apple will sell over $10 billion in iPads to business this year alone, and $16 billion in 2013. They sold over $6 billion there in 2011. This is a tremendous number, and increase. With iPhones making their own big way in, Apple is already in business in a major way. Desktop and notebooks aren't the only business tools anymore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross
During the call early this evening Apple said that they had been hiring people to specifically deal with the enterprise in areas such as iPad and iPhone adoption, and other areas as well, which I assume to be macs.
They already are involved with companies such as Unisys, and others, who are integrators. That is, they get the proper hardware and software together, even writing some for companies.
I wonder if Apple's "recent bridge burning" precludes it, or integrators from offering a hardware/software server solution. Apple already has software for server, SAN, shared application processing...
Unfortunately, there is no server class hardware that can [legally] run this software.
As FCP X matures, I suspect that Apple will implement shared, concurrent editing of Projects and Events -- an SQL database is used to manage each, which would greatly simplify implementation of this capability.
Further, by having content on a central store (local/backroom/cloud) -- it could be accessible from anywhere.
Here's an article that discusses this:
http://fcp.co/hardware-and-software/pro/809-google-drive-and-we-video-collaborative-editing-does-this-change-everything
While I am not sanguine about using a Google service for this -- the concept is valid.
I posted this:
Michael Cioni describes a workflow where they used iTunes Podcasting to submit dailies from the set of The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo. The video was shot in 5K/4K in Sweden, copies were rendered in h264 720p and Podcast as dailies to the US.
http://fcp.co/final-cut-pro/news/732-michael-cioni-talks-4k-workflow-and-fcp-proxies-for-the-girl-with-the-dragon-tattoo
The workflow is described at about 22:00.
Michael doesn't specify, but I suspect that the "Podcast Files" were stored on a computer on the set (as opposed to being uploaded to Apple's Servers), and linked via iTunes.
Now, take that a step further and imagine FCP X running in iCloud and accessing the files.
FCP X doesn't support concurrent multiuser editing... yet.
But the SQL database implementation of both Events and Projects means that this can be readily implemented on the future.
Combine that with all the metadata and search goodness of FCP X and we would really have something.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markbyrn
Tim is right. With Win 8 and Metro UI, it's like putting the toaster in front of the refrigerator; almost every time you want to open the fridge, you have to move the toaster.
Actually, it's the other way 'round -- the fridge is in front... You can't even see the toaster.
coulda, shoulda, woulda but <strong> stylus killed the win-d-ows tab-let </strong>
(sung it to the tune of "video killed the radio star") lol
I have Win8 CP installed in a VM on my Mac and that's exactly the impression I get. A touch screen UI and a desktop UI should have two completely differ approaches. A mouse is a poor substitute for a finger. And multitouch gestures with a mouse? And choices that make sense for a ten-inch screen (say, running all apps full screen, suspending background apps) fit poorly when you have a 27-inch screen, or say, multiple monitors and want to multitask.
Most reviews have focused on "how am I going to deal with this" and "I think I can tolerate this without too much annoyance." Not exactly the recipe for a winning user experience.
Here's the conclusion from a long review on Ars (emphasis mine):
Quote:
Almost great
The Windows 8 desktop experience is best summed up with one word: frustrating. It takes the already solid Windows 7 experience and makes some valuable, desirable improvements. The Start screen is an effective Start menu replacement. As I've written previously, the Metro apps themselves work well with the mouse and a keyboard: writing applications that are equally comfortable with touch and mouse seems possible. All the different pieces that you need for a good desktop operating system are there.
They just don't fit together well. For tablet users, the whole is probably greater than the sum of the parts, and the individual decisions add up to a slick touch environment. But they're problematic for dedicated desktop users, and mixed Metro/desktop usage looks like a real mess.
The only way to make the experience work smoothly is to ignore the Metro parts (aside from the Start screen). And if you're going to do that, what's the point of giving desktop users Metro apps at all?
http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2012/04/windows-8-on-the-desktopan-awkward-hybrid.ars/5
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit
When I was a kid I used to think that Judy Jetson was hot... now I think that Jane Jetson is hot.
When you start to think that Rosie is hot... be alarmed.
From what I've read, Adobe's new cloud service will offer some of that as well, though not concurrent editing. I don't have a use for it. Maybe in past years. But things are moving that way. We really need a much faster Internet for this to work well, and cell service, while getting much faster is too limiting because of bandwidth limits.
At least for now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer
Convergence in OS X Lion-> Mountain Lion is about converging Services to provide more depth and breadth to the OS X ecosystem, not about OS X reabsorbing iOS.
As usual wrong. It does absorb a lot of shit. Lion did as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross
I've been accused of it by some people over the years who were new, and so didn't know my posting history.
Over the years? Heck, last week isn't so long ago
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross
It's an interesting point. But things are changing there too. Apple's Mac sales to medium and large businesses is way up over the past two years. But it's expected that Apple will sell over $10 billion in iPads to business this year alone, and $16 billion in 2013. They sold over $6 billion there in 2011. This is a tremendous number, and increase. With iPhones making their own big way in, Apple is already in business in a major way. Desktop and notebooks aren't the only business tools anymore.
I completely agree the iPad (as well as every other tablet) will continue to grow. The tablet market is very anemic right now and it's growing by leaps everyday. That will level out with time though and even before that tipping point decisions will be based more so on integration and less so on emotion on an exponential curve but... nobody knows the future. We'll just have to wait and see what happens. It took Apple 20 years to come back from it's battle with Microsoft in the late 80's/early 90's. I don't think it will take Microsoft 20 years to penetrate the tablet market with a very usable product.
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit
When I was a kid I used to think that Judy Jetson was hot... now I think that Jane Jetson is hot.
Hmmm. I guess I should be glad there wasn't a GrandMa Jetson.
I partially disagree. I don't have a single problem with combining the two. I just think there needs to be a CLEAR separation of the two. Instead of jumping back and forth between the desktop and Metro, why not just let the user choose the interface they want? I would use the desktop at home and use the Metro while on tablet in the wild. BUT, I would really like the option of hooking up a keyboard, mouse, stylus, etc. and use the desktop UI while traveling so that I could have more capabilities without the need for a dedicated laptop.
Why are people not able to see that there is another option?
Toaster and a Fridge, that sounds pretty good to me.
Apple - Mac OS X Cat why bother.
iPad - it is a toy (useless)
Quote:
Originally Posted by lamewing
I partially disagree. I don't have a single problem with combining the two. I just think there needs to be a CLEAR separation of the two. Instead of jumping back and forth between the desktop and Metro, why not just let the user choose the interface they want? I would use the desktop at home and use the Metro while on tablet in the wild. BUT, I would really like the option of hooking up a keyboard, mouse, stylus, etc. and use the desktop UI while traveling so that I could have more capabilities without the need for a dedicated laptop.
Why are people not able to see that there is another option?
I was just thinking about this... For example you could have a MacBook Air with a detachable screen that would behave exactly like an iPad when the screen was detached, and exactly like a Mac when it was connected.