How easy is LM to recycle? I have not heard any mention of it so far. Apple has been saying that they prefer to use recyclable materials.
It should be recyclable. Certainly recyclable to the component materials even if the liquidmetal alloy itself can not be reused.
However, that misses the point. It is important to be able to recycle the aluminum in a MacBook pro because a large majority of the material is lost when machining it. The whole point of Liquidmetal is to be able to manufacture it near net shape so that there's little or no waste generated in the manufacturing process.
As stated repeatedly, it has been used commercially on things like golf clubs and tennis rackets.
Yes you have stated that repeatedly in several other threads as well, however, I believe I read that the LM golf clubs and tennis rackets were only surface coatings of LM not solid castings. Not going to bother looking it up but I have nothing against LM, it just doesn't seem like a ready for prime time material. If Apple perfects it I'm sure it will be marvelous.
I really don't know why you go to so much effort to insult and discredit people when they are not even expressing anything other than an opinion. If I said I don't think the color red is very practical for an automobile, you would somehow have to prove that my opinion was the result of faulty reasoning.
wow, I really hope my stock in liquid metals tech is ok now..... I guess I just have to believe that Apple is still up to their sneaky old ways of churning the rumor mill....Like someone above said "you really think Apple would pay a 20m contract to make hinges?"
It is important to be able to recycle the aluminum in a MacBook pro because a large majority of the material is lost when machining it.
I believe they recover nearly all of the metal shavings in the factory. You are the expert in manufacturing so I will defer to your superior knowledge, but if I were running the factory I would consider recovering all the metal that was removed from the billets.
Yes you have stated that repeatedly in several other threads as well, however, I believe I read that the LM golf clubs and tennis rackets were only surface coatings of LM not solid castings. Not going to bother looking it up but I have nothing against LM, it just doesn't seem like a ready for prime time material. If Apple perfects it I'm sure it will be marvelous.
I really don't know why you go to so much effort to insult and discredit people when they are not even expressing anything other than an opinion. If I said I don't think the color red is very practical for an automobile, you would somehow have to prove that my opinion was the result of faulty reasoning.
I'm not insulting anyone. I'm simply pointing out that you are too lazy to even do the most rudimentary research and you don't have any idea what you're talking about. Therefore, your opinion on the matter is worthless.
To address your specific comments - the existing products are solid castings, not surface coatings. In fact, it is unreasonable to expect a surface coating to create some of the properties being claimed. (they also sell surface coatings, but that's different).
And your example is a ridiculous straw man argument. You've made multiple factual errors and I pointed them out. Maybe next time you'll make the effort to learn something about a topic before making yourself look foolish. Then again, I doubt it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
I believe they recover nearly all of the metal shavings in the factory. You are the expert in manufacturing so I will defer to your superior knowledge, but if I were running the factory I would consider recovering all the metal that was removed from the billets.
As I said, you can't recover 100% of the shavings. More importantly (again) is the non-metal waste. The entire machining process is extremely wasteful in the muda sense. Pick up a book on the Toyota Manufacturing Process if you want to educate yourself (again, it's obvious that you don't care about knowing anything about a subject before commenting).
And, of course, that doesn't even consider the fact that the aluminum machining process creates a risk of explosion - as one plant learned already.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Oak
Perhaps Apple is much, much further along than anyone thinks
Perhaps with its exclusivity arrangement Apple is planning to create a permanent competitive advantage
Perhaps the big recent increases in cap ex is for purchases of state of the art tooling equipment to create tens of millions of products a quarter
Perhaps this is one of Apple Top Five areas of focus for the next three years
Perhaps they have kept it under wraps because they want to knock everyone's socks off
Perhaps :-)
They've been working on it for nearly 2 years now. And with immense resources, I'd be inclined to agree. IF there is a significant potential cost savings and/or if the other benefits make up for an increase in cost, Apple could be well down the path toward manufacturing Liquidmetal products.
I can't disagree more with this statement. The macbook pro and macbook airs are very complex cases. They require very specialized machines to create and machine. Liquid Metal can be cast into these shapes much like plastic can and could reduce the cost enormously for creating complex cases. Not to mention it is harder lighter and stronger than titanium, and stainless steel, It would be a huge deal for apple.
Also liquid metal alloy has all of these properties because of the fact that it has no crystalline structure like other metals in the same strength, weight, durability and corrosion resistance class.
Uh huh...and Steve Jobs said they had no interest in phones, tablets, etc., before they introduced them. C'mon guys, you really think this guy is gonna say, "Yes, Apple will be releasing the new iPhone this year featuring our innovative new metal"? Get real.
I believe they recover nearly all of the metal shavings in the factory. You are the expert in manufacturing so I will defer to your superior knowledge, but if I were running the factory I would consider recovering all the metal that was removed from the billets.
I think you are looking at this at too basic a level. Machining is an energy intensive process. Using a unibody Macbook for an example, the raw material needs to be machined, then a laser drills the holes for the lights and what not. You also have the cost of cutters that need to be sharpened or replaced, aluminum shavings that need to be recycled, etc.
You end up with machine time +plus labor+plus tooling costs+high energy usage. Even in a large scale production machining something like the Macbook Pro case is a costly and time consuming endeavor.
If I understand the process of liquid metal correctly, it's more along the lines of plastic injection molding. The high cost of tooling is paid upfront, and it takes a lot of energy to melt and inject your raw material. The benefit is there should be almost no waste, the ability to use lower cost labor (lower skilled) and a much shorter production time. Using this method, the more pieces they make the cheaper the overall cost is.
I can certainly understand the buzz surrounding this product. A metal casing made as strong as a machined part, quicker then a cheap casting and at a cost close to a injection molded part. Of course, if it was easy to develop this technology, we would have seen it used long ago.
Sheesh, this new layout looks like a dog's breakfast on an iPad.
It's a shame they didn't try testing it on an iOS device before selecting it.
You guys don't seriously expect me to go back to having sit at a computer just to use the Internet, do you?
You don't honestly expect me to waste my time scrolling and zooming, trying to view content on a 3.5" screen when I've got a 27" one in the next room.
To each his/her own.
Despite Apple's vast financial resources and lineup of Chinese manufacturers begging to build stuff for them it would be really hard, even for Apple, to keep secret the widespread retooling of entire factories with liquid metal fabrication.
Let's bring the focus back to the products, with this exclusive breaking news:
The delays in bringing LiquidMetal into use are due to the amazing breakthroughs in science and design that Apple has had to make to create the most beautiful new iPhones and iPads! And incredibly, these will be even more insanely great than anything that Apple has ever done!
The LiquidMetal molding process has been miniaturized so that it can be installed at every single Apple Store!
And very soon, you will have the option to personalize your own iPhone or iPad with a gorgeous new case that is molded to the shape of your own hand!
Every Apple customer will want to be one of the first on the planet who is lucky enough to own the amazing new customized iPhone or iPad. And it can be made just for you in every Apple Store! And custom-crafted while you wait!
With the purchase of a new, next-generation iPhone or iPad, you will be able to have an advanced silicone-polymer mold made of your very own hand!
If that's not already enough to blow you away, this quick-set mold will be used to cast a LiquidMetal case that matches your every curve and contour!
And -- boom! -- it's that easy to make the most spectular iPhones and iPads ever! One that will be as personalized and comfortable and familiar as the front of your hand!
These new iPhones and iPads are so out of this world and spectacular that they are guaranteed to make you weep!
With this awe-inspring new innovation, Apple is melding human flesh and Apple's inspiring, uplifting, and wonderful design to create what might be considered to be the first, fully functional, integrated Android!! Wow!! Oh, crap...
Let's bring the focus back to the products, with this exclusive breaking news:
The delays in bringing LiquidMetal into use are due to the amazing breakthroughs in science and design that Apple has had to make to create the most beautiful new iPhones and iPads! And incredibly, these will be even more insanely great than anything that Apple has ever done!
The LiquidMetal molding process has been miniaturized so that it can be installed at every single Apple Store!
And very soon, you will have the option to personalize your own iPhone or iPad with a gorgeous new case that is molded to the shape of your own hand!
Every Apple customer will want to be one of the first on the planet who is lucky enough to own the amazing new customized iPhone or iPad. And it can be made just for you in every Apple Store! And custom-crafted while you wait!
With the purchase of a new, next-generation iPhone or iPad, you will be able to have an advanced silicone-polymer mold made of your very own hand!
If that's not already enough to blow you away, this quick-set mold will be used to cast a LiquidMetal case that matches your every curve and contour!
And -- boom! -- it's that easy to make the most spectular iPhones and iPads ever! One that will be as personalized and comfortable and familiar as the front of your hand!
These new iPhones and iPads are so out of this world and spectacular that they are guaranteed to make you weep!
With this awe-inspring new innovation, Apple is melding human flesh and Apple's inspiring, uplifting, and wonderful design to create what might be considered to be the first, fully functional, integrated Android!! Wow!! Oh, crap...
You seem to be suffering from a really serious envy problem.
I didn't realize that both Nokia and Samsung had already used LiquidMetal in their phones! I'd have to guess it was before they gave Apple an exclusive on it in 2010, altho there's other companies with a similar product aren't there? Wonder what Samsung's experience with it was and why they didn't use it more/still?
I guess it's still to difficult for Samsung to copy it yet!!
I believe they recover nearly all of the metal shavings in the factory. You are the expert in manufacturing so I will defer to your superior knowledge, but if I were running the factory I would consider recovering all the metal that was removed from the billets.
That's still considered waste. Why? It still costs money and energy to recycle the aluminum that wasn't used in the final component - and I'm guessing only a fraction of the material of the original billet is used.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
How easy is LM to recycle? I have not heard any mention of it so far. Apple has been saying that they prefer to use recyclable materials.
It should be recyclable. Certainly recyclable to the component materials even if the liquidmetal alloy itself can not be reused.
However, that misses the point. It is important to be able to recycle the aluminum in a MacBook pro because a large majority of the material is lost when machining it. The whole point of Liquidmetal is to be able to manufacture it near net shape so that there's little or no waste generated in the manufacturing process.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
As stated repeatedly, it has been used commercially on things like golf clubs and tennis rackets.
Yes you have stated that repeatedly in several other threads as well, however, I believe I read that the LM golf clubs and tennis rackets were only surface coatings of LM not solid castings. Not going to bother looking it up but I have nothing against LM, it just doesn't seem like a ready for prime time material. If Apple perfects it I'm sure it will be marvelous.
I really don't know why you go to so much effort to insult and discredit people when they are not even expressing anything other than an opinion. If I said I don't think the color red is very practical for an automobile, you would somehow have to prove that my opinion was the result of faulty reasoning.
wow, I really hope my stock in liquid metals tech is ok now..... I guess I just have to believe that Apple is still up to their sneaky old ways of churning the rumor mill....Like someone above said "you really think Apple would pay a 20m contract to make hinges?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
It is important to be able to recycle the aluminum in a MacBook pro because a large majority of the material is lost when machining it.
I believe they recover nearly all of the metal shavings in the factory. You are the expert in manufacturing so I will defer to your superior knowledge, but if I were running the factory I would consider recovering all the metal that was removed from the billets.
i'm predicting cyberdyne systems will be the one that figures out how to use liquid metal...
Perhaps with its exclusivity arrangement Apple is planning to create a permanent competitive advantage
Perhaps the big recent increases in cap ex is for purchases of state of the art tooling equipment to create tens of millions of products a quarter
Perhaps this is one of Apple Top Five areas of focus for the next three years
Perhaps they have kept it under wraps because they want to knock everyone's socks off
Perhaps :-)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
Yes you have stated that repeatedly in several other threads as well, however, I believe I read that the LM golf clubs and tennis rackets were only surface coatings of LM not solid castings. Not going to bother looking it up but I have nothing against LM, it just doesn't seem like a ready for prime time material. If Apple perfects it I'm sure it will be marvelous.
I really don't know why you go to so much effort to insult and discredit people when they are not even expressing anything other than an opinion. If I said I don't think the color red is very practical for an automobile, you would somehow have to prove that my opinion was the result of faulty reasoning.
I'm not insulting anyone. I'm simply pointing out that you are too lazy to even do the most rudimentary research and you don't have any idea what you're talking about. Therefore, your opinion on the matter is worthless.
To address your specific comments - the existing products are solid castings, not surface coatings. In fact, it is unreasonable to expect a surface coating to create some of the properties being claimed. (they also sell surface coatings, but that's different).
And your example is a ridiculous straw man argument. You've made multiple factual errors and I pointed them out. Maybe next time you'll make the effort to learn something about a topic before making yourself look foolish. Then again, I doubt it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
I believe they recover nearly all of the metal shavings in the factory. You are the expert in manufacturing so I will defer to your superior knowledge, but if I were running the factory I would consider recovering all the metal that was removed from the billets.
As I said, you can't recover 100% of the shavings. More importantly (again) is the non-metal waste. The entire machining process is extremely wasteful in the muda sense. Pick up a book on the Toyota Manufacturing Process if you want to educate yourself (again, it's obvious that you don't care about knowing anything about a subject before commenting).
And, of course, that doesn't even consider the fact that the aluminum machining process creates a risk of explosion - as one plant learned already.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Oak
Perhaps Apple is much, much further along than anyone thinks
Perhaps with its exclusivity arrangement Apple is planning to create a permanent competitive advantage
Perhaps the big recent increases in cap ex is for purchases of state of the art tooling equipment to create tens of millions of products a quarter
Perhaps this is one of Apple Top Five areas of focus for the next three years
Perhaps they have kept it under wraps because they want to knock everyone's socks off
Perhaps :-)
They've been working on it for nearly 2 years now. And with immense resources, I'd be inclined to agree. IF there is a significant potential cost savings and/or if the other benefits make up for an increase in cost, Apple could be well down the path toward manufacturing Liquidmetal products.
Quote:
Cases are not very complex shapes to start with
I can't disagree more with this statement. The macbook pro and macbook airs are very complex cases. They require very specialized machines to create and machine. Liquid Metal can be cast into these shapes much like plastic can and could reduce the cost enormously for creating complex cases. Not to mention it is harder lighter and stronger than titanium, and stainless steel, It would be a huge deal for apple.
Also liquid metal alloy has all of these properties because of the fact that it has no crystalline structure like other metals in the same strength, weight, durability and corrosion resistance class.
Uh huh...and Steve Jobs said they had no interest in phones, tablets, etc., before they introduced them. C'mon guys, you really think this guy is gonna say, "Yes, Apple will be releasing the new iPhone this year featuring our innovative new metal"? Get real.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
I'm not insulting anyone.
I'm simply pointing out that you are too lazy ...
you don't have any idea what you're talking about....
your opinion on the matter is worthless. ...
making yourself look foolish...
you don't care about knowing anything about a subject before commenting...
But please MStone, don't take those comments as insults. To the contrary, those were relative compliments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
I believe they recover nearly all of the metal shavings in the factory. You are the expert in manufacturing so I will defer to your superior knowledge, but if I were running the factory I would consider recovering all the metal that was removed from the billets.
I think you are looking at this at too basic a level. Machining is an energy intensive process. Using a unibody Macbook for an example, the raw material needs to be machined, then a laser drills the holes for the lights and what not. You also have the cost of cutters that need to be sharpened or replaced, aluminum shavings that need to be recycled, etc.
You end up with machine time +plus labor+plus tooling costs+high energy usage. Even in a large scale production machining something like the Macbook Pro case is a costly and time consuming endeavor.
If I understand the process of liquid metal correctly, it's more along the lines of plastic injection molding. The high cost of tooling is paid upfront, and it takes a lot of energy to melt and inject your raw material. The benefit is there should be almost no waste, the ability to use lower cost labor (lower skilled) and a much shorter production time. Using this method, the more pieces they make the cheaper the overall cost is.
I can certainly understand the buzz surrounding this product. A metal casing made as strong as a machined part, quicker then a cheap casting and at a cost close to a injection molded part. Of course, if it was easy to develop this technology, we would have seen it used long ago.
Clear as mud?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR
Apple needs to be careful here.
While they are focussing on future hardware implementations, users of PC software are leaping ahead on the software side of things:
http://www.redmondpie.com/os-x-mountain-lion-theme-transformation-pack-for-windows-7-and-windows-8-now-available-for-download/
Sheesh, this new layout looks like a dog's breakfast on an iPad.
It's a shame they didn't try testing it on an iOS device before selecting it.
You guys don't seriously expect me to go back to having sit at a computer just to use the Internet, do you?
You don't honestly expect me to waste my time scrolling and zooming, trying to view content on a 3.5" screen when I've got a 27" one in the next room.
To each his/her own.
Despite Apple's vast financial resources and lineup of Chinese manufacturers begging to build stuff for them it would be really hard, even for Apple, to keep secret the widespread retooling of entire factories with liquid metal fabrication.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maccherry
Seriously, liquid metal?
What's your point?
It's actually reasonably descriptive of the product.
The delays in bringing LiquidMetal into use are due to the amazing breakthroughs in science and design that Apple has had to make to create the most beautiful new iPhones and iPads! And incredibly, these will be even more insanely great than anything that Apple has ever done!
The LiquidMetal molding process has been miniaturized so that it can be installed at every single Apple Store!
And very soon, you will have the option to personalize your own iPhone or iPad with a gorgeous new case that is molded to the shape of your own hand!
Every Apple customer will want to be one of the first on the planet who is lucky enough to own the amazing new customized iPhone or iPad. And it can be made just for you in every Apple Store! And custom-crafted while you wait!
With the purchase of a new, next-generation iPhone or iPad, you will be able to have an advanced silicone-polymer mold made of your very own hand!
If that's not already enough to blow you away, this quick-set mold will be used to cast a LiquidMetal case that matches your every curve and contour!
And -- boom! -- it's that easy to make the most spectular iPhones and iPads ever! One that will be as personalized and comfortable and familiar as the front of your hand!
These new iPhones and iPads are so out of this world and spectacular that they are guaranteed to make you weep!
With this awe-inspring new innovation, Apple is melding human flesh and Apple's inspiring, uplifting, and wonderful design to create what might be considered to be the first, fully functional, integrated Android!! Wow!! Oh, crap...
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmhisey
Let's bring the focus back to the products, with this exclusive breaking news:
The delays in bringing LiquidMetal into use are due to the amazing breakthroughs in science and design that Apple has had to make to create the most beautiful new iPhones and iPads! And incredibly, these will be even more insanely great than anything that Apple has ever done!
The LiquidMetal molding process has been miniaturized so that it can be installed at every single Apple Store!
And very soon, you will have the option to personalize your own iPhone or iPad with a gorgeous new case that is molded to the shape of your own hand!
Every Apple customer will want to be one of the first on the planet who is lucky enough to own the amazing new customized iPhone or iPad. And it can be made just for you in every Apple Store! And custom-crafted while you wait!
With the purchase of a new, next-generation iPhone or iPad, you will be able to have an advanced silicone-polymer mold made of your very own hand!
If that's not already enough to blow you away, this quick-set mold will be used to cast a LiquidMetal case that matches your every curve and contour!
And -- boom! -- it's that easy to make the most spectular iPhones and iPads ever! One that will be as personalized and comfortable and familiar as the front of your hand!
These new iPhones and iPads are so out of this world and spectacular that they are guaranteed to make you weep!
With this awe-inspring new innovation, Apple is melding human flesh and Apple's inspiring, uplifting, and wonderful design to create what might be considered to be the first, fully functional, integrated Android!! Wow!! Oh, crap...
You seem to be suffering from a really serious envy problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy
I didn't realize that both Nokia and Samsung had already used LiquidMetal in their phones! I'd have to guess it was before they gave Apple an exclusive on it in 2010, altho there's other companies with a similar product aren't there? Wonder what Samsung's experience with it was and why they didn't use it more/still?
I guess it's still to difficult for Samsung to copy it yet!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
I believe they recover nearly all of the metal shavings in the factory. You are the expert in manufacturing so I will defer to your superior knowledge, but if I were running the factory I would consider recovering all the metal that was removed from the billets.
That's still considered waste. Why? It still costs money and energy to recycle the aluminum that wasn't used in the final component - and I'm guessing only a fraction of the material of the original billet is used.